np: ORAS OU Suspect Process, Round 2 - Spider Man [Metagrossite remains OU]

[Outrageous Fortune]

This is how I see the metagame right now, a combination of these 3 megas: Mega Sableye Stall, Mega Metagross Hyper Offense and Mega Diancie (or Mega Garde if you want) Bulky Offense. Removing only one of these 3 pokemons means that another mon would take great benefit from it, Diancie in this case (but also Mega Gardevoir). Talking realistically, I think that the Metagross situation is very similar to Aegislash one: I know many people that regretted voting for his ban (I am one of those), since it marked the beginning of the bulky offense era (Avante Palestra by Destiny Device and Mega Heracross Rain are 2 good examples) with mons like Mega Heracross and Gardevoir finally being able to spam their powerfull stab moves, with pretty much nothing able to resist them. Now, I think that if Metagross gets banned, not only offense will lose a really good switch to Latios and Fairies in general, but the whole metagame would be more unbalanced than it is now. Thus, I'm going to say no ban.

I have my reservations about that picture, as teams with megagross usually have something to beat sableye (remember, it's linked to stall as a playstyle - it's not one pokemon looking at it in the metagame) and diancie isn't the only dominant fairy. Anyway, ignoring that for now:

By not banning you're saying you want to keep the metagame like that. Don't you see a problem with that? It's like playing rock paper scissors before the battle even starts, at the teambuilder. Wouldn't it be better to ban metagross, then ban any fairies that become broken because of it? It seems pretty obvious that getting rid of this matchup triangle would be much better than just leaving it there for 'balance' - team matchup problems are a common criticism of ORAS.
Also, I'm just going to point out that many people in this thread have already made the "don't ban megagross because fairies will become OP" argument, and it's clearly not a good reason to ban (again, the reasons have already been mentioned in this thread).

 

[Alfalfa]

A ban for MegaGross is not unprecedented. Good power, bulk, and speed all together in a way that makes it very difficult for offensive teams to take out. Tough Claws, along with 80 / 150 / 110 defenses and a solid base 110 Speed after Mega Evolving is quite a generous amount for Mega Gross in terms of desired traits for an offensive Pokemon, and while Mega Gross is not as broken as something like Mega Kanga / Mega Gengar / Mega Salamence, its qualities still push it far over the edge, meaning that a ban is worth considering.

 

[Notorious544d]

I want to mention that the whole 'fairies will become overpowered if M-Metagross leaves' argument is quite silly.

I don't recall people saying that during the Greninja metagame, despite being dubbed the 'fairy-killer.'

 

[Patolegend!]

Ok, I feel like we need to nip something in the bud here. Mega Meta CAN ONLY RUN ONE SET AT A TIME. Each set has different checks and counters, and while painful, the main set (STABs, hammer arm, BP/Grass Knot/Thunder Punch) can be be played around due to its reliance on Hammer Arm to get past bulky steels like Ferro, Skarm, and Heatran. If it doesn't have Hammer Arm, it can be beaten by Ferro. If it does, a simple switch into Lando-T on the predicted HA means Metagross is now at -1 speed and -1 attack. If it is running the Agility set it's walled by a hell of a lot more mons.

I think 'mons would be boring if we just had one mon that can completely shut another down. The whole strategy of switching and predicting moves is the most fun part, and is what really happens in normal games (apart from vs stall, where it's more the former). I can't understand why we're complaining about having to put more than one Metagross check on a team when that is just standard practice for EXCELLENT pokemon. Think about Bisharp, for example. You have Keldeo, but you know it can be easily worn down, so you put Hippo on your team just to make sure, or Talon, or Breloom. Hippo also covers other roles, but you put it there instead of another mon that also covers those roles to cover Bisharp.

Talonflame is another example, but with Raikou and Lando-T as an example.

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For those comparing Meta to Greninja, that's just not true - I think people are forgetting that Meta doesn't get Pseudo STAB on its tough claw moves, it gets 1.33, a life orb boost - Greninja had 1.5 on everything. It's STABs are also inaccurate. Not being able to OHKO Latios is just not as impressive as other broken mons we've had. I'm short of time now, so I just want to highlight some comments by some renowned battlers among the crapfest that this is sure to become:

This is how I see the metagame right now, a combination of these 3 megas: Mega Sableye Stall, Mega Metagross Hyper Offense and Mega Diancie (or Mega Garde if you want) Bulky Offense. Removing only one of these 3 pokemons means that another mon would take great benefit from it, Diancie in this case (but also Mega Gardevoir). Talking realistically, I think that the Metagross situation is very similar to Aegislash one: I know many people that regretted voting for his ban (I am one of those), since it marked the beginning of the bulky offense era (Avante Palestra by Destiny Device and Mega Heracross Rain are 2 good examples) with mons like Mega Heracross and Gardevoir finally being able to spam their powerfull stab moves, with pretty much nothing able to resist them. Now, I think that if Metagross gets banned, not only offense will lose a really good switch to Latios and Fairies in general, but the whole metagame would be more unbalanced than it is now. Thus, I'm going to say no ban.

Dont Ban. There are a lot of solid checks dependning on movepool. It also just lack's the pwer needed to really broken. Doesnt even ohko shit like latios for example. While it may lack completely hard counters (although scizor rle does more or less as well as shit like skarm, physdef gliscor JIRachi which I guess arent foolproof but mostly do the job), it is checked pretty easily and struggles with really standard cores like ferro-rotom-lando-t, needing perfect prdiction to even have a chance and still most likely losing. I can see the argument cuz its hard for offense to rk, but offense has shit like excadrill or just shit that can live a hit p easily and ohko back like zard x/chomper. All in all I can see the argument cuz it has a very low opportunity cost and can threaten a lot of shit, but if people just tried a bit harder to chekc it its not that hard.

Also 90 acc everything sux

 

[SaberSeven]

This one may wind up being close. Mega Metagross is an excellent Pokemon. A high base 110 speed coupled with a base 145 attack and Tough claws with a massive movepool to boot. Coupled with 80/150/110 defenses makes it a very durable attacker. Have a problem with a bulky water? Grass Knot patches that up AND gets a Tough Claws boost. Even with a - attacking nature it still has a chance to 2HKO Slowbro.

4- SpA Tough Claws Mega Metagross Grass Knot (80 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Slowbro: 172-204 (43.6 - 51.7%) -- 9% chance to 2HKO.

Landorus-T an issue? Ice Punch. Hammer Arm covers both Heatran and Ferrothorn simultaneously. Meteor Mash & Zen Headbutt are excellent STAB moves on Mega Metagross that can dent a heavy portion of the OU metagame. The problem with Mega Metagross is its 4MSS. Mega Metagross is worthy of a test. Will it be banned? That will be up to whomever makes reqs. Personally, I'm on the fence about this, but time will tell.

 

[Alfalfa]

This is how I see the metagame right now, a combination of these 3 megas: Mega Sableye Stall, Mega Metagross Hyper Offense and Mega Diancie (or Mega Garde if you want) Bulky Offense. Removing only one of these 3 pokemons means that another mon would take great benefit from it, Diancie in this case (but also Mega Gardevoir). Talking realistically, I think that the Metagross situation is very similar to Aegislash one: I know many people that regretted voting for his ban (I am one of those), since it marked the beginning of the bulky offense era (Avante Palestra by Destiny Device and Mega Heracross Rain are 2 good examples) with mons like Mega Heracross and Gardevoir finally being able to spam their powerfull stab moves, with pretty much nothing able to resist them. Now, I think that if Metagross gets banned, not only offense will lose a really good switch to Latios and Fairies in general, but the whole metagame would be more unbalanced than it is now. Thus, I'm going to say no ban.

You make an interesting argument, but keep in mind that we do not keep broken Pokemon unbanned to keep others in check. If either Mega Diancie or Mega Sableye become a problem, then we can suspect them. GSC Snorlax is the only notable exception to this case, as while Snorlax was incredibly overcentralizing, without it, then most games would last far longer than they would with Snorlax, which were still fairly long battles compared to a BW2 / XY / ORAS match due to how stallish the GSC metagame was.

 

[p2]

I think people are exaggerating how bulky Mega Metagross really is. Since Grass Knot is one of it's best coverage options after Hammer Arm, it's going to be running a -def/-sdef nature most of the time. This makes it a lot easier to hurt badly as it switches in, and imo, people just exaggerate how well it takes hits. Once you've knocked off 50% with Latios/Gardevoir/Clefable, it can't recover and cannot switch in again, while Latios speed ties and can 2HKO if it's an HP Fire Variant (but it needs to come back in if it's just Draco Meteoring), even smaller things like Scarf Gothitelle, or Magneton/Zone can pick it off easily after a Draco/Focus Blast/Fire Blast from the former 3 pokemon, well in fact nearly any scarfer can deal with it after its down 50%.

I'd say that the meta is fairly balanced right now and that there are plenty of pokemon running around that can give it trouble, such as Bisharp, Lando-T, Mandibuzz, Mega Manectric, Alomomola, Scizor, Suicune, Gliscor, Mew, Talonflame and Victini are all ones that come to mind
On top of that it has no way to recover from status, which means it can easily be pressured by the like of Thundurus' Twave, or Sableye's WoW, or even lured by Clefable's Twave. Removing Mega Metagross would screw over the rock paper scissors thing we have with it, Mega Sableye and Mega Diancie/Altaria/Gardevoir right now, which could potentially make the metagame worse and unbalance the hell out of it.

God damn my post is all over the place and is probably nonsensical gibberish, but I'll come back to it at some point though, at least I kinda got my point across, but during the meantime I'll be going with No Ban.

 

[Inflikted]

This is how I see the metagame right now, a combination of these 3 megas: Mega Sableye Stall, Mega Metagross Hyper Offense and Mega Diancie (or Mega Garde if you want) Bulky Offense. Removing only one of these 3 pokemons means that another mon would take great benefit from it, Diancie in this case (but also Mega Gardevoir). Talking realistically, I think that the Metagross situation is very similar to Aegislash one: I know many people that regretted voting for his ban (I am one of those), since it marked the beginning of the bulky offense era (Avante Palestra by Destiny Device and Mega Heracross Rain are 2 good examples) with mons like Mega Heracross and Gardevoir finally being able to spam their powerfull stab moves, with pretty much nothing able to resist them. Now, I think that if Metagross gets banned, not only offense will lose a really good switch to Latios and Fairies in general, but the whole metagame would be more unbalanced than it is now. Thus, I'm going to say no ban.

lol...it's nice how now we need to use images to hide the fact that the actual arguments are flawed, irrelevant or even meaningless!

The pre-ORAS OU metagame in its final stage was widely considered a very balanced metagame with nothing standing out as broken, except maybe greninja in the eyes of a minority of players. This metagame was born with the help of the Aegislash ban, and this is why I'm pretty sure that people that "regret voting for its ban" are a minority at best.

So how the hell was "the beginning of the bulky offense era" a bad thing? The Heracross / Gardevoir argument is bullshit, these two were very viable but NOT broken, as they could only shine against specific team archetypes that in the end developed efficient counters anyway. And if you really need to say that the metagame will be "more unbalanced" explain why in a meaningful way. Because stuff like Gardevoir and Clefable didn't gain or lose anything big from the transition to ORAS, except having one more prevalent check that is Metagross. But were Clefable and Gardevoir broken before Mega Metagross was introduced? No. Was Latios broken before the introduction of Metagross? No. The old checks to all of this stuff still exist and are still viable.

And what's the issue with other mons becoming better or worse if something leaves? Diancie has much better checks anyway (Metagross doesn't switch well into Diancie at all because Moonblast+Earth Power have a high chance to kill, and has to rely on a speed tie, assuming it's already mega evolved; Diancie would maily gain from the departure of Metagross due to a lessened opportunity cost). And if something else stands out as broken after a ban, we can just suspect that too until the tier is balanced, like in late XY. This should already be obvious and shouldn't need to be reiterated so many times, especially to users that are supposed to know what they're talking about.

 

[Hikari-1]

I have been arround long enough to say this while providing evidence highlighting it.

Mega Metagross has everything it needs to take a one way trip to Ban-land, also knows as uber but it doesn't mean that it should. I will expend on it.

I - Calculations have been provided - The thing has what it needs to 2HKO almost everything, a movepool that if not wide allows it to perform best while even suffering from four moveslot syndrome you can be sure in the time you will need to figure out it's fourth move he will have taken out one of your keys mons if not your win condition outright. Slowbro ? Quagsire ? Grass knot, - Skarm ? Thunderpunch... Nothing can safely switch in on it and hope for not taking a 2HKO, for a minimal mega evolution. It's bulk allowing him to face down most revenge killers emerging victorious alongside his ability providing a free life orb boost on it's key moves backed by a 145 /150 attack stat makes it so it doesn't need a turn of setup ! - > He deserves the BAN

II - This doesnt mean that it SHOULD be banned however ! Because he is one of the few things stopping the many fairies of OU, known as Cleafable for one to being God Tier - The linchpin checking most threats, etc. Maybe other alleys should be explored ? A way to bring balence ? Maybe it is time to bring back Aegislash from ban-land and see how it fares in the brand new ORAS metagame desesperately needing balence ?

 

[KztxL7]

Ok, I feel like we need to nip something in the bud here. Mega Meta CAN ONLY RUN ONE SET AT A TIME. Each set has different checks and counters, and while painful, the main set (STABs, hammer arm, BP/Grass Knot/Thunder Punch) can be be played around due to its reliance on Hammer Arm to get past bulky steels like Ferro, Skarm, and Heatran. If it doesn't have Hammer Arm, it can be beaten by Ferro. If it does, a simple switch into Lando-T on the predicted HA means Metagross is now at -1 speed and -1 attack. If it is running the Agility set it's walled by a hell of a lot more mons.

I think 'mons would be boring if we just had one mon that can completely shut another down. The whole strategy of switching and predicting moves is the most fun part, and is what really happens in normal games (apart from vs stall, where it's more the former). I can't understand why we're complaining about having to put more than one Metagross check on a team when that is just standard practice for EXCELLENT pokemon. Think about Bisharp, for example. You have Keldeo, but you know it can be easily worn down, so you put Hippo on your team just to make sure, or Talon, or Breloom. Hippo also covers other roles, but you put it there instead of another mon that also covers those roles to cover Bisharp.

Talonflame is another example, but with Raikou and Lando-T as an example.

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For those comparing Meta to Greninja, that's just not true - I think people are forgetting that Meta doesn't get Pseudo STAB on its tough claw moves, it gets 1.33, a life orb boost - Greninja had 1.5 on everything. It's STABs are also inaccurate. Not being able to OHKO Latios is just not as impressive as other broken mons we've had. I'm short of time now, so I just want to highlight some comments by some renowned battlers among the crapfest that this is sure to become:

Aegislash and Greninja could only run a single set at time as well.

Mega Metagross doesn't need to run every set at once or be able to hit everything at once because thats what teammates are for.

Last I checked, Pokemon is not a 1v1 game. Not even in Singles.

You're not supposed to be judging Mega Metagross on its merits alone. You're supposed to be judging Mega Metagross on its merits when working with 5 other teammates.

 

[ShatteredSummers]

The issue with M-Metagross is that its stats are 'unbalanced.'

You have Pokemon who have are fast and hit hard like M-Lopunny, M-Diancie and Latios but they suffer from below average bulk.


You then have M-Metagross, which hits hard, has great uninvested defences with a Steel typing for bulk as well as hitting the crucial 110 speed tier. Now high stats itself doesn't automatically make a Pokemon broken - see Kyurem-B or M-Diancie for example. However, M-Metagross has a movepool that abuses its Tough Claws ability and the combination of Meteor Mash (175 base power), Zen Headbutt (156 base power) and Hammer Arm (130 base power despite not being STAB) hit the majority of the metagame really hard. Such a hard-hitting, bulky AND fast Pokemon is a bit too overpowering for OU.

Isn't Mega Salamence a slightly better example of a Pokemon with "unbalanced" stats? Although it's no longer OU-relevant, it to me was an example of a Pokemon with oddly placed stats being freaking amazing.
It had terrific bulk - 130 base Def (which is almost Skarmory's bulk) and Intimidate in its base form. It could abuse Dragon Dance and Aerilate-boosted Return/Double Edge (Its Return hitting harder than Tough Claws Meteor Mash). It could go special with Hyper Voice, Hydro Pump, Draco Meteor and Fire Blast. And it had 120 base speed.

 

[Toljik]

Too bulky, too fast. It can take almost physical super-effective hit from any faster Pokemon in OU, and usually OHKOs in return.

252+ Atk Landorus-T Earthquake vs. 80 HP / 0 Def Mega Metagross: 272-324 (84.7 - 100.9%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO

Adamant Talonflame outspeeds Jolly Metagross by one point and 1HKOs with Flare Blitz. Choice Scarf Victini and Darmanitan can pull it off, but leave themselves in very vulnerable positions. Its Special Defense is "only" 110, but outside of Landorus and Charizard, STAB Dark/Ghost/Ground/Fire special attacks are not a common sight. You can't overpower Mega Metagross easily.

At this point, asking Game Freak to buff a underpowered psuedo is like wishing on the Monkey's Paw.

 

[toshimelonhead]

I'm still torn on whether banning is a good idea. My judgement will come down to determining whether Mega Metagross limits team building for stall, bulky offense, and hyper offense teams. Each of these styles has their own way of dealing with Mega Metagross (stall with Slowbro / Skarmory / Mandibuzz / M-Sableye, bulky offense with Scizor (and Mega) / Gyarados / Victini / Mew, and HO with revenge killers such as Talonflame / Scarf Lando-T / Thundurus (para for agility Metagross) / Mega Manectric / Mega Lopunny / Sand Excadrill. None of these are 100% perfect counters to Metagross, but unlike other suspects such as MegaMence or Greninja where this list of checks was MUCH smaller (especially for Bulky Offense), most teams have 2-3 of these mons on their squad to begin with. The real question I have is how many options do we need to have to deal with a threat in order to keep something in OU? It's easy to accept that in ORAS there are so many threats that there is no way to counter every single one of them with 6 mons, but I also do not have the luxury to bring in a specialized counter for one individual threat like I could have for DPP.

 

[liptonic]

If you take a good look at Megagross' case, he's not that far from Greninja. His movepool is great, allowing a double STAB (Psychic/Steel) resisted only by Steels and some double-types (Starmie, looking at you), and a great coverage allowing to hit for decent damages many heavy tanks, for example Thunderpunch (Slowbro, Suicune, Skarmory), Ice Punch (Gliscor, Landorus-Therian), Hammer Arm (Ferrothorn, Heatran), Earthquake (Heatran), Grass Knot (Slowbro, Suicune)... Only Scizor-Mega can take all of Megagross' attacks over time and be able to backfire hard enough to force a switch out. Of course, many of the mons I talked of are common checks, but most of them can still be 2HKO'd by Megagross.

Combine the big coverage with something that ressembles Greninja a lot: Tough Claws. It gives a boost of 30% to any contact move Megagross uses, meaning all of Megagross' moves, excepted Grass Knot and Earthquake, are boosted.

With ORAS, the speedtier standard climbed up to 110: Lati@s, Gallade-Mega, Gengar... That means Megagross is able to outspeed most of the metagame, making offensive checks hard to find, and mainly Scarf. Also Megagross got a great bulkiness: 80/150/110, so the few checks you can find may fail to 2HKO Megagross. Actually that makes the offensive teams use the same Scarfed Pokemons in order not to be 6 KO'd by Megagross only.

 

[daftmau5]

I'm not completely sure how i feel about banning Mega Metagross just yet but i'll post my thoughts anyway because discussion is always welcome.

I predominantly favour Bulky Offense and my approach to Mega Metagross is treat it like just one of the 30 other big threats you need to consider when putting a team together in the current metagame. A few people argue have argued so far that it has no checks in OU which is flagrantly untrue. My goto mons so far have been Fat Rocky Helmet Garchomp, Mega Scizor, Victini and Starmie though I will concede that Metagross has adequate coverage to be able to get past some of these. While i suppose this seems somewhat centralising, i usually unintentionally pack 2 Metagross checks just as a matter of sensible teambuilding around other threats. For example, Starmie + Fat RH Garchomp handle most Metagross variants (i'm yet to face Grass Knot + Ice Punch on the same set because it simply misses out on too much) while being chosen for their ability to check top metagame threats such as Keldeo and Mega Lopunny which like Metagross (to an extent), can come in and grab a kill if you don't pack a solid check.

That being said, it is disgustingly strong and honestly needs judicious switching in a lot of cases to manoeuvre around its strength (and i'm not going to waste your time with calcs since i'm pretty sure we've all copped a beating from Mega Meta at one point). For example, even defensive Landorus-T can't come in effectively on the turn of Mega Evolution due to Clear Body producing a good chance to 2HKO with a neutral Meteor Mash + SR. That being said, there are other threats in the metagame that don't have the best switchins (see: Choice Band Azumarill and LO Kyurem-b for example). However, i feel Mega Metagross somewhat distinguishes itself from these mons due to its combination of power, speed, varied movepool, incredible typing and last of all ridiculous bulk (basically everything you want in a pokemon). I honestly find it a bit absurd that even uninvested, it has slightly better bulk than Bold 248 HP / 216 Def Rotom-w (303 HP / 334 Def / 250 SDef vs 301 HP / 336 Def / 256 SDef). Together, I can understand why it can be seen as 'a bit too much'.

So yeah, at this stage i'm on the fence though i will admit i enjoy the metagame the way it is at the moment. To go off on a slight tangent to the topic of this suspect test, I feel like we have enough room to make extremely creative teams due to a plethora of previously overlooked mons shooting up in usage such as Toxicroak, Volcarona, Togekiss and Hydreigon. If i had to nitpick, too many people are spamming variants of the same old (Mega) Slowbro/Gliscor/Ferro/Scarf Ttar balance style teams but whatever, I've got my LO Kyub chilling in the back.

I'll hit the Suspect Ladder and try and see if I can solidify my opinion one way or the other as to whether the tier is improved by Meta's absence and try to post an update later. Happy laddering all :]

 

[Mango Smoothie]

(Wall of text incoming)

I'm pro-ban, and its been said quite a few times why but I'll repeat it. Mega Metagross has everything it needs to smash through almost the entire tier on its own. Very few things want to switch into its STABs (both having good base power), which coming off of 140 Attack along with Tough Claws boost will severely dent most of the Physically defensive non-resist pokemon in the tier. Along with with a high attack (and a move with a 20% chance to boost it further), it gets Base 105 Special Attack meaning that even uninvested its special attacks (pretty much Grass Knot) are going to hurt what they need to hit (READ: Slowbro, Starmie, Hippowdon, the things that can switch into its other moves). A lot. Did I forget to mention that Grass Knot also gets boosted by Tough Claws?

So with the above things in mind, let's ask what can reliably switch into Metagross? (I'm using the BreakMyTeam function of sweepercalc, the one I'm using is linked here). We see that the standard set (Meteor Mash, Hammer Arm, Zen Headbutt, Grass Knot) is countered by Doublade, Alomomola and most variants of Scizor (Scizor can set up, though if Metagross gets a boost from Meteor Mash on the switch this becomes a different story, as it has a decent shot at a 2HKO non-fully defensive variants with Hammer Arm, while Scizor can't do much it it isn't already set up). Not much else. STABs and Grass Knot were addressed in paragraph above. Hammer Arm will let Metagross beat Skarmory when it Roosts, and will take a hefty chunk off of Ferrothorn. Victini doesn't take too much damage either, but its not that hard to wear down with its SR weakness. Cresselia can switch in too, but whats Cresselia actually doing to Metagross anyways? Lets not forget, this is what one Metagross set ALONE can handle. Except, unlike Mawile, "this" is virtually the entire OU tier. Not to mention it doesn't have to simultaneously beat all (is it 3?) of these things, because its got 5 other team-mates with it.

+1 252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Metagross Hammer Arm vs. 248 HP / 0+ Def Mega Scizor: 160-189 (46.6 - 55.1%) -- 69.1% chance to 2HKO (bulky SD set)

So, now I guess lets look at what can afford to stay in/revenge Mega Metagross? The list of things it can force out is pretty decent sized, choiced pokemon locked into a wrong move, Latias, Defensive Venusaur, non-Scarf Keldeo, and a lot of other pokemon I'm to lazy to type up, but that's not really a that big of a deal because a lot of pokemon are like that. The problem is, much like Mega Mawile, its really hard to revenge kill. In fact, not much outside of faster Megas (Mega Houndoom pretty much, most of the rest risk a speed tie), weather sweepers, and Scarfers with SE STAB, and Talonflame can reliably revenge kill it because of that really nice speed stat. Sand Rush Excadrill and Swift Swim Sampert can scare the 'standard' Metagross out, though you'd probably have to sac something to get them in not too damaged if flat out killed. Powerful STAB scarf attacks will also do a good job at denting it (think Diggersby, Landorus, Garchomp, Victini, Heatran), but the Earthquakes are pretty risky to throw around on Scarfers. Talonflame can handle non-agility sets, I give you that, but its really easy to wear down between recoil and entry hazards. Not to mention, Metagross still has 5 team-mates that should be able to handle the handful of pokemon Metagross can't. This is starting to sound a lot like Greninja to me, not going to lie. Except priority doesn't work because its not really all that bothered by priority not named Sucker Punch. Ah, now the Mega Mawile flashbacks are coming.

To wrap this up (also TLDR), let's look at what the characteristics of an Offensive uber are
Offensive Characteristic: A Pokémon is uber if, in common battle conditions, it is capable of sweeping through a significant portion of teams in the metagame with little effort.
That sounds a LOT like mega Metagross to me. It isn't all that uncommon to bring it in (switch in on the long list of things it can force out, slow Uturn/Volt Switch, or after something dies if you really have to) and proceed to kill something. Its got great speed, excellent attack and a useable special attack, really good moves to for those attacking stats and ability, reasonable bulk uninvested making it difficult to revenge kill effectively, and (irrelevant but I had nothing else to add) a really cool design. Honestly, the only problem I see with Mega Metagross is that it lacks a recovery move. Then again, when has that ever mattered for an offensive pokemon?

 

[Toljik]

I'm not completely sure how i entirely feel about banning Mega Metagross just yet but i'll post my thoughts anyway because discussion is always welcome.

I predominantly favour Bulky Offense and my approach to Mega Metagross is treat it like just one of the 30 other big threats you need to consider when putting a team together in the current metagame. A few people argue have argued so far that it has no checks in OU which is flagrantly untrue. My goto mons so far have been Fat Rocky Helmet Garchomp, Mega Scizor, Victini and Starmie though I will concede that Metagross has adequate coverage to be able to get past some of these. While i suppose this seems somewhat centralising, i usually unintentionally pack 2 Metagross checks just as a matter of sensible teambuilding around other threats. For example, Starmie + Fat RH Garchomp handle most Metagross variants (i'm yet to face Grass Knot + Ice Punch on the same set because it simply misses out on too much) while being chosen for their ability to check top metagame threats such as Keldeo and Mega Lopunny which like Metagross (to an extent), can come in and grab a kill if you don't pack a solid check.

That being said, it is disgustingly strong and honestly needs judicious switching in a lot of cases to manoeuvre around its strength (and i'm not going to waste your time with calcs since i'm pretty sure we've all copped a beating from Mega Meta at one point). For example, even defensive Landorus-T can't come in effectively on the turn of Mega Evolution due to Clear Body producing a good chance to 2HKO with a neutral Meteor Mash + SR. That being said, there are other threats in the metagame that don't have the best switchins (see: Choice Band Azumarill and LO Kyurem-b for example). However, i feel Mega Metagross somewhat distinguishes itself from these mons due to its combination of power, speed, varied movepool, incredible typing and last of all ridiculous bulk (basically everything you want in a pokemon). I honestly find it a bit absurd that even uninvested, it has slightly better bulk than Bold 248 HP / 216 Def Rotom-w (303 HP / 334 Def / 250 SDef vs 301 HP / 336 Def / 256 SDef). Together, I can understand why it can be seen as 'a bit too much'.

So yeah, at this stage i'm on the fence though i will admit i enjoy the metagame the way it is at the moment. To go off on a slight tangent to the topic of this suspect test, I feel like we have enough room to make extremely creative teams due to a plethora of previously overlooked mons shooting up in usage such as Toxicroak, Volcarona, Togekiss and Hydreigon. If i had to nitpick, too many people are spamming variants of the same old (Mega) Slowbro/Gliscor/Ferro/Scarf Ttar balance style teams but whatever, I've got my LO Kyub chilling in the back.

I'll hit the Suspect Ladder and try and see if I can solidify my opinion one way or the other as to whether the tier is improved by Meta's absence and try to post an update later. Happy laddering all :]

When I consider whether something is Ubers worthy, I don't really consider how many checks and counters it has in total, but how the Pokemon compares, power-wise, to everything else in the tier. And I think Megagross is a class above everything else here. It is the Superman of OU. All that separates it from perfection is a lack of recovery.

 

[Jukain]

Dont Ban.

the tl;dr version of this (ill post my full thoughts later) is that metagross is doing its job perfectly, and people seem to think that it makes it broken for some reason. Its job is to wallbreak, and thats exactly what it does: wallbreak. Another thing is that this balance infested metagame has trouble with it because its the playstyle gross has the hardest matchup against (except for some variants of stall). And even then, ferrotran cores + lando t give it trouble, for example (ik hammer arm is a thing but trust me when I say that this core gives gross trouble). It may be lacking in the counters department, but even then they still exist (phys def gliscor, physdef mew, bulky mega scizor, alomomomomomomola, etc). it also has its fair share of checks like rotom, lando t, bro, mega bro, ferro, jirachi, manaphy, suicune, and others. the main problem with gross is that its centralizing, but that doesnt make it broken.

also offense has plenty of ways to revenge kill it holy shit. stop saying it doesnt. prior damage is easy to get when gross is switching in on latios dracos,lopunny returns, etc. 20% isnt difficult to achieve, even if it does resist rocks. The two best revenge killers, talon and lando t, both beat it after that 10-20% prior damage. its not gonna be at 100% health every time. this is not a good argument to make when youre trying to simulate real game scnarios. the real game scenarios have it at 70-90% most of the time after its first switch in. not 100. if its at 100% every time it comes in, then youre not playing properly. make sure that you know that gross is using its resistances to switch in more often than not, and it taking chip damage every time it comes in. its not magic guard clefable that doesnt gaf about hazards and can heal. once damage is done to gross, its done for good. its only getting that back thru healing wish / wish.

The problem I have with this argument is that something doing its job perfectly is actually a rational reason for something to be broken. Think about Deoxys-D and its perfection as a hazard setter as well as Deoxys-S and its perfection as a LO revenge killer. Think about Aegislash and its perfection as an overbearing offensive and defensive presence. Mega Metagross is just that good at breaking down defensive cores on the predominant balanced teams in this metagame. A set of Meteor Mash / Zen Headbutt / Hammer Arm / Grass Knot is pretty much unwallable outside of Alomomola, bulky Mega Scizor, and Skarmory as well as physically defensive Gliscor/Mew so long as Metagross doesn't get an Attack raise. Skarmory is only usable on stall, while Mew needs optimal conditions in order to deal with Metagross (full health and coming into nothing more than SR up; it even as a ~20% chance to get 2HKOed if sand is up which isn't exactly a rare situation with all the Scarftar and Hippowdon in this metagame; also, it loses if Metagross gets an Attack boost with Meteor Mash which isn't rare!) which means that it's extremely inconsistent at dealing with Metagross. Gliscor also really needs to be looked after in order to deal with Metagross, though it's a lot easier to keep healthy so that's really a minor point. Anyways, Ferrothorn, Manaphy, and Rotom-W aren't really checks at all so I don't really know what you're getting at there. The core you said gives Metagross trouble has one member that does nothing to help with Metagross (Heatran), one that is a shaky switch-in at best because you have to avoid a Hammer Arm on the switch-in (Ferrothorn), and one that can't deal with it until it's Mega Evolved and isn't even an answer after the first switch-in.

If we're talking about real-game scenarios (which we are), you have to acknowledge that things not being at 100% HP goes both ways, sure your defensive mons can heal but not if they're being pressured to shit by a Metagross user who knows what they're doing. Talonflame is not really a premier revenge killer but in any case barely does 80% with a max roll on Flare Blitz and can't switch in, plus Metagross's own pressure/presence makes it really hard to get rid of rocks which is a major problem for Talonflame. Offense actually has way more trouble revenge killing Mega Metagross than you're saying, as you have to weaken it first and are losing at least one if not multiple mons in the process of dealing with it. Mega Metagross is bulky, fast, and strong, making it way harder to deal with for offense than the typical wallbreaker-esque mon. It can also just go ahead and run Agility with partners to help it with some of the fat cores that it may begin to struggle with a bit I suppose, and in the process becomes almost impossible to deal with effectively within the context of an offensive team.

I think that getting rid of Mega Metagross is more than justified given how difficult is to even check, let alone counter, and the current state of the metagame. Banning Mega Metagross is a pretty good first step to balancing this chaotic metagame and removing some of the stress on teambuilding, which can help alleviate the major matchup concerns in this metagame. I believe that most players can agree that the current metagame isn't exactly ideal, and I think that banning Mega Metagross is a great first step toward fixing that.

 

[Mr.378]

This was inevitable, but at the same time warranted. It's not a stretch to say Mega Metagross is the best pokemon in OU right now. It is very powerful and very bulky and with a great movepool and decent typing to back it up. It has a great speed tier that allows it to out speed most of the pokemon that offensive and balanced builds use while dealing great damage to anything on them with its wide variety of coverage moves. In a way it is like Greninja, except it eats up a mega slot and has less raw power and speed while having far greater bulk and probably greater consistency across a number of match ups. Also like Greninja you can effectively choose your checks with the four moves you use and can play mind games by bluffing certain moves very easily. It is a also a very easy pokemon to team build with. Not only does it's good typing allow it to be effectively a one pokemon check to practically every fairy in the metagame, but it also lends itself well to a lot of good offensive cores like Mega Metagross + Keldeo. It does have it's flaws, like how it eats up the mega slot, gets worn down rather easily despite it's good bulk, and it rather burn prone, but the pros of it easily outweigh the cons.


I was originally sold on Mega Metagross not being broken, but after thinking about it I am more conflicted about it. I will have to play on the suspect ladder to effectively guage my thoughts on this one. Until then I am undecided on the issue. Either way this should be a good suspect test seeing as this time the issue is fairly divisive as opposed to last time where the community decided Greninja's fate far before it got suspected.

 

[Dread Arceus]

No ban
this thing is pretty damn good, with high bulk, power, and speed, and pretty solid coverage, as well as a useful ability and typing. That said, it feels more like a "top of OU" type mon than Uber; it has a few, more niche full switchins that stall can take advantage of, and hyper offense can take advantage of MMeta's relatively low speed tier prior to MEvo. That leaves balance with the hardest matchup against it. One could almost call MMeta a "balance breaker", and when you compare its effectiveness against balance to that of some stallbreakers and HObreakers (Gothitelle and Mega Lopunny come to mind), Mega Metagross is a pretty fair fight. With all that in mind...
is smogon banning the meta?

 

[pretty little liAr]

I changed my avatar just for this.
I will play the role of Miss Martha Costello, my favorite fictional barrister, and I will be defending my client, Mr. Mega Metagross, who has been accused of being to powerful for the Ou metagame to handle. So Your Honor (aka Judge Haunter) lets us begin.
Just be wary that I prefer to prosecute, so please be mindful that I have little experience when it comes to defending.
Anyway, the prosecution argument seems quite flawed to me, and I have only seen 1 post (praise goes to Mr. Albacore) on the ban side of the argument that truly has good justification and reasoning for why mega Metagross should been banned.
Anyway, on to the arguments of why Mega Metagross "should be banned
1. It has no checks/counters!!!
Incorrect. It has checks, depending on what move it runs. Which comes to the problem. Mega Metagross can hit every pokemon for super effective damage, however, it cannot do so all in one moveset. I am not going to call it the 4MSS, but it is a form of which the pokemon has no safe switch ins, but at the same time, it does. For example, counter skarmory is a safe switch-in if Metagross lacks thunder punch. Slowbro and it's mega form are both safe switch-ins if Metagross lacks grass knot. Landerus Therian is a safe switchin if metagross lacks ice punch. Similar to Greninja, who could "pick" what checks it, Metagross can pick the moves it wants to deal with the pokemon that may threaten the team. The difference is that Metagross's counters have other uses then just checking Metagross, unlike Greninja, who's counters were pretty much only used so the team would not get dismantled. Anyway, while mega Metagross does force a Guessing game for what moves it has, all it's check can take a hit, even from a powerful super effective tough claws boosted one. This means the team will pretty much know Metagrossess moveset, so they no what to expect for future encounters during the same battle. Also, just becuase a pokemon "has no counters" does not mean it's broken. During BW2, Hydreigon was pretty much uncounterable, yet it was not broken. Also, max Defense mega Sableye always checks Metagross when healthy, not matter the movset.
2. It's base stat total is too high!!!
So? Kyreum B has a higher base stat total, and it's not broken. Mega Diance has a similar layout of stats, and it's not broken. This argument is completely invalid. Just becuase a pokemon has amazing stats does not mean it's broken. I am going to leave it as this, as this is pretty self explanatory, but you really should not be judging a pokemon by stats when it comes to suspect testing. I know Metagross has perks over Diance and kyreum, but I think that just saying that somethings broken becuase it's stats are high is lazy and invalid.
3. It destroys offence!!!
Okay... Yes, as far as switch ins on offensive teams go, mega metagrioss has next to none. However, it can be reveng killed by the most popular offensive pokemon, bisharp, with relative ease. Other fast mons such as raikou, starmie, choice scarf excadrill, choice scarf landerus, Talonflame, choice scarf gengar, mega Manentric and mega loppuny, with some prior damage. The catch is, that mega Metagross will almost always have some. One point that I feel has been strongly overlooked by the prosecution is that Metagross has to take a turn to mega evolve. Mega Metagrossess base form is quite vulnerable, as it has only average defensive typing, and low speed, meaning that against offence, it is pretty much forced to take hit, which normally leaves it around half health, making it an easy target for stuff like bisharp to come in and finish the job. Also, it sits at a crowed speed tier, which is actually not beneficial, as it ends up taking a ton damage for most of the pokemon that speed tie with it (gengar flat out OKOS, Gallade does a ton of damage, Latios equakes or hp fires.) Overall, while Metagross seems broken at first, with a combination of speed, power and bulk. However, when you look deeper, mega Metagross is much more vulnerable then you may think. It always looses to something, so it's no uncountrable. It is vulnerable the turn it megas, and gets outpaced an revenge kill by quite a lot of notable threats. Finally, and I leave this open until the suspect ladder comes out, it may in fact hold then metagame together. I hope my client is given a fair trial, and Your Honour please note these facts. Let's give Mr. Mega Metagross a chance to prove his innocent. He may come in later himself to prove it.
In conclusion, DO NOT BAN MEGA METAGROSS TO THE UBERS TIER.

 

[spec m]

lol...it's nice how now we need use images to hide the fact that the actual arguments are flawed, irrelevant or even meaningless!

The pre-ORAS OU metagame in its final stage was widely considered a very balanced metagame with nothing standing out as broken, except maybe greninja in the eyes of a minority of players. This metagame was born with the help of the Aegislash ban, and this is why I'm pretty sure that people that "regret voting for its ban" are a minority at best.

So how the hell was "the beginning of the bulky offense era" a bad thing? The Heracross / Gardevoir argument is bullshit, these two were very viable but NOT broken, as they could only shine against specific team archetypes that in the end developed efficient counters anyway. And if you really need to say that the metagame will be "more unbalanced" explain why in a meaningful way. Because stuff like Gardevoir and Clefable didn't gain or lose anything big from the transition to ORAS, except having one more prevalent check that is Metagross. But were Clefable and Gardevoir broken before Mega Metagross was introduced? No. Was Latios broken before the introduction of Metagross? No. The old checks to all of this stuff still exist and are still viable.

And what's the issue with other mons becoming better or worse if something leaves? Diancie has much better checks anyway (Metagross doesn't switch well into Diancie at all because Moonblast+Earth Power have a high chance to kill, and has to rely on a speed tie, assuming it's already mega evolved; Diancie would maily gain from the departure of Metagross due to a lessened opportunity cost). And if something else stands out as broken after a ban, we can just suspect that too until the tier is balanced, like in late XY. This should already be obvious and shouldn't need to be reiterated so many times, especially to users that are supposed to know what they're talking about.

definetly this, and would also add the fact that, as a major gardevoir user, the main problem for fairies such as garde itself, diance and so on is scizor hands down. plus jirachi. metagross can check them, yes, but it's definetly far from a counter and honestly garde and diance have both a high number of checks, they sure won't outshine if one of their numerous checks will be gone. i mean look at garde, it has pathetich defence and a less than average speed for an offensive threat.
i'm not sure about the fact that metagross is the banned or not but the fact that fairies will shine is definetly not an argument.

 

[Lukesterrr]

The type coverage of mega Metagross is similar to Greninja in the fact that its almost impossible to find a counter, let alone a counter that can fit with a team. Metagross gets meteor mash, zen headbutt, hammer arm, ice punch, grass not, earthquake, double edge, pursuit, rock slide, and thunder punch, which are all powerful moves. There is no type if I am not mistaken that metagross can't hit with a super effective attack making Metagross close to impossible to counter. The only viable counter I could see is a rotom wash, because it is not hit hard by grass not or a bulky bug type because it is only hit super effectively by rock slide, which is not common on Metagross right now. Also due to its 110 base spedef, 150 base defense, and its 110 base speed it is hard to counter with a pokemon that isnt a bulky bug type because the Metagross could be a bulky set able to survive one attack and OHKO with a super effective attack or running speed investment and able to OHKO you with a super effective attack. The only walls to mega Metagross that could be viable are Shuckle and Forretress both which cannot touch meta metagross even with a status because of Metagross' steel typing. The best thing I could see is Shuckle infestation trapping it and wearing it down for a revenge kill. Sorry for writing such a long rant but I feel because of Mega Metagross' amazing stats and type coverage make it is very difficult to counter/play around and this situation parallels that of Greninja, so in my opinion Mega Metagross should be banned form OU.

 

[Machi]

I'll post my thoughts on this later but I'm just going to put this here to say don't use theorymon as an argument for your case. Things like "Oh the tier will be too fairy infested" is not an argument towards whether a potential suspect is ban worthy so provide actual practical reasons in regards to why or why not the suspect in question is fine for the meta-game.

Edit: Also please use some logic when posting and please read the OP for what is and what isn't allowed in regards to post.

The bigger problem with this sort of argument people keep bringing up is that they're blatantly ignoring the fact that the best fairy killer out there is not actually MMetagross but MScizor, who proves to a more reliable switch in thanks to Roost. A lot of high ranking players, heck just look at the top stall team of the ladder, have been advocating on how good MScizor especially in this meta. So MMeta leaving just means people will look toward MScizor, who more or less fits in the same team, as it is just an exaggeration that MMetagross is the best option in keeping Fairies in check, when it really isn't as they just wear it down (especially MGarde and Specs Sylveon that take such a huge chunk out of MGross).

 

[boo836]

Hi all.

I'm not that much of a OU player, but I still feel I ought to include my two cents. As someone that's played previous generations, I would like to make it clear that simply possessing a wide move pool is not criteria to be considered suspect worthy. Looking at Lucario in fourth generation, it possessed a movepool capable of keeping one guessing, but held counters at bay. Similarly, we had Dragonite. The Pokemon which countered them are perfectly viable, and very much plentiful. It baffles me then that we suspect Metagrossite, which similarly suffers from 4mss. A couple weeks ago, i asked the rooms if Ice Punch was common on Metagross, and i received a no, as the cost of dropping a coverage move such as grass knot was far too much to justify typical use of Ice Punch and other similar moves.

Thus, i ask that we avoid making comment on "the set of champions", simply because it is unrealistic, not reflective of the metagame, and vastly overselling Megagross' capabilities. I don't think it is my place to comment on whether or not Megagross deserves a ban, but i dislike the precedent this sort of reasoning sets for future metagames.