-
Welcome to Smogon! Take a moment to read the Introduction to Smogon for a run-down on everything Smogon, and make sure you take some time to read the global rules.
-
Congrats to the winners of the 2023 Smog Awards!
np: ORAS UU Stage 3.1 - Sex on Fire [Victini Remains BL]
- Thread starter Sam
- Start date
- Status
Only if its soulmate Jirachi gets to come back as well
Only if we delete Iron Head and Zen Headbutt from its movepool.
After about 30 games, the thing that strikes me the most is how few people are actually using Victini. Most of the one I've seen so far have been naively played Band or Scarf sets which are easily beaten by keeping rocks up and having a decent defensive check. I'm sure it can be played better than this, but I'm just not seeing decent players do it. The few times Victini has given me trouble - as people with more games under their belt than me in this suspect test have noted - is mixtini. Every time I've seen a mixtini set, it KO's something. The band set is easily checked (not countered, mind you, but checked), but those checks are predictable and the mixtini set takes advantage of that to nail them. I'm still not completely convinced, and definitely want to see more before making a call, but my initial leanings towards remaining banned are unchanged.
Yep, I'm nearing 30 games now and I've literally seen tini in about 5 battles, each time played badly so I'm honestly finding it hard to judge its effectiveness. I know I'm eventually going to run into a set which straight up blasts through both my checks with the appropriate coverage though :[
I know I'm a little late to the party here, but I'm planning on trying to start my conquest to reqs now, I've had a lot of stuff going on with my graduation and everything else, but that's w/e. My initial thoughts on victini are that it has the potential to be a very good mon in the meta, but do I think it'll be broken? No. Over centralizing? Yes. If victini stays in the tier, every team will need some sort of victini counter or check from bulky mence to a heavy fire type such as rotom-h or arcanine and even the mega swampert. Either that or they will have some sort of pursuit trapper for when Victini spams v-create. As said by practically everyone else, pretty much nobody is going to be left running band on victini and most will resort to a heavy usage of Life orb to fight many of the counters that will be used. And with that the meta COULD adapt around victini if it really needed too, but Victini, I initially feel, would make the metagame much more overcentralizing around it and extremely restrict teambuilding making uu a little less fun of a tier. I played the xy tier of Victini and am ready for the nostalgia that this suspect test is about to give me. Sorry I couldn't post more, but I am on a time crunch here. Forgive me.
OK, I'm going to post something that is going to be pretty unpopular, at least judging by the other posts here.
After getting reqs and playing 80+ games on the suspect ladder, and despite where I thought I'd be voting when I began this suspect test, I am leaning toward voting to unban Victini.
When I think about how I'm going to vote on something like this, I like to ask myself three questions: does this pokemon overly restrict teambuilding? Does it invalidate any specific strategies, playstyles or 'mons? Is the tier more or less fun with Victini in it?
So, first, does Victini overly restrict teambuilding? Well, suspect ladders are hard to judge this off of, because people tend to way overprepare. That said, I think it's fair to say that every top team is going to have to account for Victini in their teambuilding, and probably have a couple of checks. As many have mentioned here before, Victini's unpredictability makes it dangerous (although I think that unpredictability is being overstated - thus far I've been able to more or less guess every 'tini set I've come across with nothing more than a damage calc and a look at what item they're using), so you can't just dedicate one teamslot to Victini and call it a day. On the other hand, many of the answers to Victini are actually really good, and exist across the spectrum for all playstyles. So, yeah, Victini definitely restricts teambuilding... but I'm not really sure it overly restricts it. When I look at some of the top teams from recent tournaments, most of them could be fairly easily adjusted to account for Victini in the tier.
Second, does Victini invalidate any specific playstyles, strategies or 'mons? Stall and offense are both doing just fine on the suspect ladder. Balance is a bit shaky, with the one-two punch of Mamo dropping and 'tini coming over to play, but I already see balance teams adjusting around the meta. As for specific 'mons... not really. Darmanitan is the only 'mon that I expect to completely drop out of high level play if Victini is allowed back into the tier - but let's be real, Darmanitan wasn't exactly a big presence in high level play to begin with. Entei usage will go down a bit, since a lot of teams can't really afford to stack two offensive Fire types, but Victini and Entei have different roles, so it won't disappear entirely. On the other side of the coin, there are a lot of already decent 'mons that get a bit of a bump in viability. Krookodile is stronger than ever, as are Hydreigon and Salamence. Mega-Ampharos, already a great pivot and one of the better answers to arguably the scariest 'mon in the tier (Mega-Pidgeot) now gets an additional major threat to check. Dragalge is only a soft check, but handles mixed sets superbly and OHKOs after rocks with Draco Meteor. Tyrantrum is finally getting a chance to shine. Fast offensive megas like Aero, Pidgeot and Beedrill are still great for their ability to outspeed and heavily damage 'tini. Basically, almost nothing that's currently a top choice has fallen from grace, and unlike the Serperior meta, Victini isn't forcing us to run a bunch of garbage 'mons like Sap Sipper Bouffalant.
Third, is the tier more or less fun with Victini in it? This one is tough because it's so subjective, but thus far it seems like Victini has made the tier more interesting, not less. I liked the UU tier prior to the Victini suspect, so it's not like I thought things were stale and need a change, but overall UU has felt just as much fun as always.
Basically, like Mamoswine, I think a lot of Victini's alleged brokenness exists more on paper than it does in play. Yes, theoretically it is impossible to switch into, especially if you don't know its set. On the other hand, its sets are pretty predictable. LO recoil means mixed or special set, no recoil but suspiciously low damage means Scarf or Ebelt lure (don't be a chump! check that damage calc!), and when it deals like 20% to something with U-turn, you know it's banded. It's ridiculously easy to force out thanks to its typing, average Speed and reliance on V-Create, and its typing means it can't reliably switch in on much either. Don't get me wrong - Victini is obviously a top 'mon in the tier, no question. I just don't think it's actually broken. Playing on the suspect ladder, the Victinis I came across weren't any scarier than, say, Mence or Slurpuff or Suicune - and honestly were less scary than Pidgeot or Feraligatr.
So, tl;dr version: Victini is obviously very good, but doesn't seem to be a negative presence on the tier. Unless something major changes between now and voting that sways my opinion, I plan to vote to unban Victini.
After getting reqs and playing 80+ games on the suspect ladder, and despite where I thought I'd be voting when I began this suspect test, I am leaning toward voting to unban Victini.
When I think about how I'm going to vote on something like this, I like to ask myself three questions: does this pokemon overly restrict teambuilding? Does it invalidate any specific strategies, playstyles or 'mons? Is the tier more or less fun with Victini in it?
So, first, does Victini overly restrict teambuilding? Well, suspect ladders are hard to judge this off of, because people tend to way overprepare. That said, I think it's fair to say that every top team is going to have to account for Victini in their teambuilding, and probably have a couple of checks. As many have mentioned here before, Victini's unpredictability makes it dangerous (although I think that unpredictability is being overstated - thus far I've been able to more or less guess every 'tini set I've come across with nothing more than a damage calc and a look at what item they're using), so you can't just dedicate one teamslot to Victini and call it a day. On the other hand, many of the answers to Victini are actually really good, and exist across the spectrum for all playstyles. So, yeah, Victini definitely restricts teambuilding... but I'm not really sure it overly restricts it. When I look at some of the top teams from recent tournaments, most of them could be fairly easily adjusted to account for Victini in the tier.
Second, does Victini invalidate any specific playstyles, strategies or 'mons? Stall and offense are both doing just fine on the suspect ladder. Balance is a bit shaky, with the one-two punch of Mamo dropping and 'tini coming over to play, but I already see balance teams adjusting around the meta. As for specific 'mons... not really. Darmanitan is the only 'mon that I expect to completely drop out of high level play if Victini is allowed back into the tier - but let's be real, Darmanitan wasn't exactly a big presence in high level play to begin with. Entei usage will go down a bit, since a lot of teams can't really afford to stack two offensive Fire types, but Victini and Entei have different roles, so it won't disappear entirely. On the other side of the coin, there are a lot of already decent 'mons that get a bit of a bump in viability. Krookodile is stronger than ever, as are Hydreigon and Salamence. Mega-Ampharos, already a great pivot and one of the better answers to arguably the scariest 'mon in the tier (Mega-Pidgeot) now gets an additional major threat to check. Dragalge is only a soft check, but handles mixed sets superbly and OHKOs after rocks with Draco Meteor. Tyrantrum is finally getting a chance to shine. Fast offensive megas like Aero, Pidgeot and Beedrill are still great for their ability to outspeed and heavily damage 'tini. Basically, almost nothing that's currently a top choice has fallen from grace, and unlike the Serperior meta, Victini isn't forcing us to run a bunch of garbage 'mons like Sap Sipper Bouffalant.
Third, is the tier more or less fun with Victini in it? This one is tough because it's so subjective, but thus far it seems like Victini has made the tier more interesting, not less. I liked the UU tier prior to the Victini suspect, so it's not like I thought things were stale and need a change, but overall UU has felt just as much fun as always.
Basically, like Mamoswine, I think a lot of Victini's alleged brokenness exists more on paper than it does in play. Yes, theoretically it is impossible to switch into, especially if you don't know its set. On the other hand, its sets are pretty predictable. LO recoil means mixed or special set, no recoil but suspiciously low damage means Scarf or Ebelt lure (don't be a chump! check that damage calc!), and when it deals like 20% to something with U-turn, you know it's banded. It's ridiculously easy to force out thanks to its typing, average Speed and reliance on V-Create, and its typing means it can't reliably switch in on much either. Don't get me wrong - Victini is obviously a top 'mon in the tier, no question. I just don't think it's actually broken. Playing on the suspect ladder, the Victinis I came across weren't any scarier than, say, Mence or Slurpuff or Suicune - and honestly were less scary than Pidgeot or Feraligatr.
So, tl;dr version: Victini is obviously very good, but doesn't seem to be a negative presence on the tier. Unless something major changes between now and voting that sways my opinion, I plan to vote to unban Victini.
Last edited:
i really dont have much to say cause you guys already knew my stance on the subject since i was the one pushing for the retest for the most part, but i do wanna post to say that by playing the ladder i confirmed my suspicions that vic is definitely more manageable now than before. this being thanks to the presence of more prominent offensive threats that can take advantage of it locking itself into v-create.
i'd like to interject something there btw--the people saying victini's non-max attack v-create sets are better are fucking insane. v-create is what makes victini the threat that it is. the only reason specially oriented sets work better in some games is because of either surprise factor (which honestly means you're up against a bad player because that shit isn't a surprise anymore), or bad teambuilding. take out v-create and victini becomes an average uu mon.
that being said, obviously its versatility counts for something. the set i used the most during the test so far has been max atk naughty @ charcoal v-create / bolt strike / u-turn or glaciate / energy ball or glaciate. a naughty charcoal v-create average-high damage roll hits about as hard as a jolly cb v-create low roll, so its pretty easy to bluff the cb and get surprise big hits or even kills on its checks and counters. being slower than krook sucked ass though. i also dabbled a bit w/ standard cb and scarf, and those are a bit worse now cause of how common pursuit is because people are overpreparing for tini.
so yeah if i bother to vote i'll vote to keep it lol
i'd like to interject something there btw--the people saying victini's non-max attack v-create sets are better are fucking insane. v-create is what makes victini the threat that it is. the only reason specially oriented sets work better in some games is because of either surprise factor (which honestly means you're up against a bad player because that shit isn't a surprise anymore), or bad teambuilding. take out v-create and victini becomes an average uu mon.
that being said, obviously its versatility counts for something. the set i used the most during the test so far has been max atk naughty @ charcoal v-create / bolt strike / u-turn or glaciate / energy ball or glaciate. a naughty charcoal v-create average-high damage roll hits about as hard as a jolly cb v-create low roll, so its pretty easy to bluff the cb and get surprise big hits or even kills on its checks and counters. being slower than krook sucked ass though. i also dabbled a bit w/ standard cb and scarf, and those are a bit worse now cause of how common pursuit is because people are overpreparing for tini.
so yeah if i bother to vote i'll vote to keep it lol
Does anyone know when this suspect test is going to end? I want to know if Victini becomes UU or not. I hope it does, honestly. Deoxys-D used to be UU in the gen 6 beta. I wish it would come back..
So I haven't really posted in this thread as much as I planned on but that's mostly due to a lack of time/motivation and a lack of a strong opinion regarding this suspect. As of now I think I've played around 25-30 games or so and I still don't really know where I stand on Victini. This is going to serve as a sort of catch all post for the suspect and will kind of be a collection of what I should have been posting this whole time. So here we go...
Initially, I was getting annoyed with those blindly casting ban-votes more or less before the test even started. It bothered me that even though the council and the tier leaders deemed that the metagame had changed enough to warrant not only discussion but a ladder be instated should have said enough that you should at least be try before dismissing the idea of it. I understood peoples' concerns about Victini but I felt that it was pointless theorymonning before the ladder was even up. Next came the phase where MixTini apparently blew through everyone's teams that were only prepared for the band set and I was ready to concede that those who posted earlier may have been right. But now that I have played some myself and seen some other opinions that are going against the stream I find myself once again in a very neutral area.
So from what I've seen, MixTini is the greatest thing since sliced bread in this tier right now (although I still have yet to see a replay of it actually doing anything). It is capable of killing anything and everything, so long as it has 8 moveslots. The issue with this is obvious. Victini cannot have 8 moves just like every other pokemon. The point I am trying to make here is that it is not hard to fit in ways to deal with Victini on your team. Will a team need a way to deal with Victini? Of course. Does that mean Victini is broken? Of course not. Reliance on V-Create as well as vulnerability to every form of trapping leave a fair amount to be desired. There are really good Fire resists that absolutely love free turns, neutering the previously best set (Choice Band). Mixed sets often lack the necessary power and require you to click the right move every turn or you'll be forced out and take 25% once again on the switch in. Furthermore, Life Orb recoil compromises one of the best things about Victini in its great natural bulk, limiting what it can do even further.
One final thing, kokoloko is 10000% right about V-Create being the reason that Victini is good. Delphox would be the same exact thing but faster if not for V-Create.
P.S. I can never communicate my thoughts properly in these posts but I'm too lazy to try to edit this.
#FREETINI
Initially, I was getting annoyed with those blindly casting ban-votes more or less before the test even started. It bothered me that even though the council and the tier leaders deemed that the metagame had changed enough to warrant not only discussion but a ladder be instated should have said enough that you should at least be try before dismissing the idea of it. I understood peoples' concerns about Victini but I felt that it was pointless theorymonning before the ladder was even up. Next came the phase where MixTini apparently blew through everyone's teams that were only prepared for the band set and I was ready to concede that those who posted earlier may have been right. But now that I have played some myself and seen some other opinions that are going against the stream I find myself once again in a very neutral area.
So from what I've seen, MixTini is the greatest thing since sliced bread in this tier right now (although I still have yet to see a replay of it actually doing anything). It is capable of killing anything and everything, so long as it has 8 moveslots. The issue with this is obvious. Victini cannot have 8 moves just like every other pokemon. The point I am trying to make here is that it is not hard to fit in ways to deal with Victini on your team. Will a team need a way to deal with Victini? Of course. Does that mean Victini is broken? Of course not. Reliance on V-Create as well as vulnerability to every form of trapping leave a fair amount to be desired. There are really good Fire resists that absolutely love free turns, neutering the previously best set (Choice Band). Mixed sets often lack the necessary power and require you to click the right move every turn or you'll be forced out and take 25% once again on the switch in. Furthermore, Life Orb recoil compromises one of the best things about Victini in its great natural bulk, limiting what it can do even further.
One final thing, kokoloko is 10000% right about V-Create being the reason that Victini is good. Delphox would be the same exact thing but faster if not for V-Create.
P.S. I can never communicate my thoughts properly in these posts but I'm too lazy to try to edit this.
#FREETINI
Just based on some conversations I've had with people in the UU room and via pm's, people are being somewhat biased about victini being broken. Yes, the mon is extremely good but since it was such an overwhelming ban in the past, the only arguments I'm hearing are the fact that "oh it gets a kill EVERYTIME it comes in" which is not always true. I've found that checking it offensively is a solid strategy in dealing with it as I can 1. trap it or 2. take advantage of the speed drop and go into a wall breaker like mamo which can devastate teams if it finds its way in safely. It also being weak to all entry hazards and with it's arguably best set in life orb, it can get widdled very easily on occasion which can really only limit it to 1 kill maybe not even a kill.
Do I think it over centralizes the meta? Not as bad as some make it out to be. Yes you are forced to run some sort of solid victini check or counter in order to deal with it, but its not like the checks we have are that bad. Arcanine and rotom are somewhat annoying to have to throw on a team because they arn't exactly great mons and I understand that. But it's not like it's over centralizing to use a snorlax, suicune, mega amph, hydreigon, or trapper aero and trapper krook or salamance. If you can successfully scout the victini it can most certainly be dealt with. Now I understand that scouting can sometimes cost you a mon, but if you have a weak link on your team that either doesn't do anything for you or is low on hp, that is a fabulous way of scouting it or you can switch in a potential check on a predicted move to see if its choice locked or life orb. Then you can go from there once you've seen the set.
It causes trouble to balance but like YABO said, it doesn't have 8 move slots. A balance team will have something that will deal with it, it will not and cannot have the perfect coverage every time for every balance team. So in essence it isn't hindering any one playstyle. zero attack invested v creates are just dumb and illogical so I honestly don't see why people feel the need to do that because there is absolutely no reason to hinder its strongest asset.
Don't get me wrong victini is a very powerful mon, but people need to keep an open mind about it and not just assume broken omg its so broken. People were saying it was broken before the suspect even started and that isn't the point of a suspect. The point of a suspect is to go in with an open mind about a poke and determine your thoughts from there, not to just assume one way.
#FREETINI2015
excuse my grammar if I screw up anywhere.
Do I think it over centralizes the meta? Not as bad as some make it out to be. Yes you are forced to run some sort of solid victini check or counter in order to deal with it, but its not like the checks we have are that bad. Arcanine and rotom are somewhat annoying to have to throw on a team because they arn't exactly great mons and I understand that. But it's not like it's over centralizing to use a snorlax, suicune, mega amph, hydreigon, or trapper aero and trapper krook or salamance. If you can successfully scout the victini it can most certainly be dealt with. Now I understand that scouting can sometimes cost you a mon, but if you have a weak link on your team that either doesn't do anything for you or is low on hp, that is a fabulous way of scouting it or you can switch in a potential check on a predicted move to see if its choice locked or life orb. Then you can go from there once you've seen the set.
It causes trouble to balance but like YABO said, it doesn't have 8 move slots. A balance team will have something that will deal with it, it will not and cannot have the perfect coverage every time for every balance team. So in essence it isn't hindering any one playstyle. zero attack invested v creates are just dumb and illogical so I honestly don't see why people feel the need to do that because there is absolutely no reason to hinder its strongest asset.
Don't get me wrong victini is a very powerful mon, but people need to keep an open mind about it and not just assume broken omg its so broken. People were saying it was broken before the suspect even started and that isn't the point of a suspect. The point of a suspect is to go in with an open mind about a poke and determine your thoughts from there, not to just assume one way.
#FREETINI2015
excuse my grammar if I screw up anywhere.
Can I ask what victini needs exactly for moveslots 6-8? As best as I can tell, a set of V-create, Bolt strike, grass knot and dazzling gleam should 2hko at a minimum just about every UU mon that isn't defensive mega ampharos or defensive arcanine, I get the hypothetical 5th moveslot would be great for U-turn, but not really seeing what else it needs (I suppose glaciate could be interchanged with dazzling gleam, but I think the ability to KO hydreigon easier while hitting other dragons for solid damage is still pretty good. Even offensive mence needs to take care glaciate or not).
Finally got reqs after lengthy stall v stall with pif, and I'm honestly not sure about anything to do with tini- I encountered it very few times throughout the entire test and most of the time it was bandtini which was kind of easy to deal with as I had a good mix of checks (for reference I used stall for the entirety of reqs). When I did encounter LO mixed tini however it was really difficult to deal with, having to scout out movesets on a Mon with a 180bp STAB fire move at its disposal is tricky to do so safely. When it did have the exact right moves to break through my checks it was a case of switching around and abusing life orb recoil and rocks damage, and although it applied a shit-ton of pressure I could often escape losing a mon, when played well at least (on a side note I really wouldn't recommend 0 attk investment on mixtini - lo v create without investment can't 2hko fat neutral walls like cress, and considering most tini special coverage hits for super effective lo alone is a sufficient boost to them).
I'm honestly kinda uncomfortable with still having seen it so little, so I'll have to ladder more before deciding.
I'm honestly kinda uncomfortable with still having seen it so little, so I'll have to ladder more before deciding.
I decided to pick up UU for this suspect test, so I do not have the background to comment on a Victini-less meta atm. As such, I came into the suspect as a 100% neutral party. I plan to ladder after the suspect, but prior to voting, to confirm my conclusions though.
I played ~40 matches with a balanced team built around Mega-Abomasnow (thanks to Bondie for passing me the team). Like many others, I have not really seen that many people using Victini (~25% of my battles?). However, the ones that have been using it have not caused much trouble. The only one that did cause trouble was a Colbur Berry mixed set that really surprised me.
At the moment, I'm leaning toward voting unban when I get reqs. From an overall metagame perspective, I have seen all playstyles used successfully on the ladder. Being a suspect test, there is a preponderance of offense, but balance and stall seem perfectly viable imo. Stall will naturally carry redundant checks to Victini, so I do not see it hindering this playstyle. In some senses, balance is restricted b/c it must devote at least one slot to something that can check Victini. However, Victini can be checked in a variety or ways, all of which are common on a balanced build (hazards/passive damage, revenge killing, offensive checks that naturally out-speed, trappers).
I do not have the experience to discuss Victini's effect on specific pokemon, but I think many of the checks/counters to Victini were already viable UU pokemon.
Finally, and most importantly in my book, I find the UU metagame w/ Victini to be quite fun. In every battle I've played thus far I had a win condition. This means the battles tend to be decided by the plays, opposed to the matchup, which is refreshing when the two main tiers I play are Monotype and OU.
I look forward to battling in the high(er) ladder over the next couple days and seeing if my opinions on Victini change!
I played ~40 matches with a balanced team built around Mega-Abomasnow (thanks to Bondie for passing me the team). Like many others, I have not really seen that many people using Victini (~25% of my battles?). However, the ones that have been using it have not caused much trouble. The only one that did cause trouble was a Colbur Berry mixed set that really surprised me.
At the moment, I'm leaning toward voting unban when I get reqs. From an overall metagame perspective, I have seen all playstyles used successfully on the ladder. Being a suspect test, there is a preponderance of offense, but balance and stall seem perfectly viable imo. Stall will naturally carry redundant checks to Victini, so I do not see it hindering this playstyle. In some senses, balance is restricted b/c it must devote at least one slot to something that can check Victini. However, Victini can be checked in a variety or ways, all of which are common on a balanced build (hazards/passive damage, revenge killing, offensive checks that naturally out-speed, trappers).
I do not have the experience to discuss Victini's effect on specific pokemon, but I think many of the checks/counters to Victini were already viable UU pokemon.
Finally, and most importantly in my book, I find the UU metagame w/ Victini to be quite fun. In every battle I've played thus far I had a win condition. This means the battles tend to be decided by the plays, opposed to the matchup, which is refreshing when the two main tiers I play are Monotype and OU.
I look forward to battling in the high(er) ladder over the next couple days and seeing if my opinions on Victini change!
Whenever people explain why Victini is unwallable it is implied that a moveset carries these moves. V-Create, Energy Ball, Glaciate, Bolt Strike, Psychic, U-Turn, Focus Blast, and even a couple niche moves like Will-O-Wisp and Taunt. In certain cases it's implied that Victini can be carrying both a Choice Band and a Life Orb while using somewhere around 700 evs. My point is this, Victini can't possibly do what everyone claims and until I'm shown replays of MixTini doing what it can allegedly do then I don't see what is so broken.
LilOu
PO poopyhead
^ This reminds me way too much of Keldeo's suspect last year. People said it was broken because it could get past Celebi using HP Bug, Gyarados using HP Electric, Jellicent using HP Ghost and Toxicroak using HP Psychic. Of course it can get past those with the respective coverage move, but it can't just slap 15 different HP types on the same moveset. Dang, that's a poor way to say a mon is broke; the fact that it can lure a certain "check" and beat it just makes it good, not broke, and that's what Victini is: he got great coverage moves to hit almost every of his so mentioned counters, but that's only in theory, in practice it has to be unable to beat something to beat something else, it's a matter of what you want it to do.
On the other hand, this is all when talking about full counters, which is what everyone is trying to have on their teams: a single mon that can come all day on whatever Victini appears. Well, let me tell you, you're not gonna find such thing (bar maybe physically defensive Victini), the point of this is to check it, not to full counter it. I have been messing around with Intimidate offensive Mence + Stone Edge Cobalion, which often lures Victini and then can OHKO with sedge unless it's ScarfTini, in which case it's way easier to deal with (Mence walls it), and I haven't had a single problem on the ladder.
On the other hand, this is all when talking about full counters, which is what everyone is trying to have on their teams: a single mon that can come all day on whatever Victini appears. Well, let me tell you, you're not gonna find such thing (bar maybe physically defensive Victini), the point of this is to check it, not to full counter it. I have been messing around with Intimidate offensive Mence + Stone Edge Cobalion, which often lures Victini and then can OHKO with sedge unless it's ScarfTini, in which case it's way easier to deal with (Mence walls it), and I haven't had a single problem on the ladder.
Last edited:
I think what makes Victini exceptional is the quality of its coverage; each move you add deals with a wide range of different threats. While you can't cover everything, you certainly can cover a huge portion of the meta. I really want to see more of him so I could get a sense of how hard it is to play around that coverage and scout those sets against a good player, but the higher I go the less Victini I see. That speaks volumes on its own, but it doesn't exactly help me come to an informed opinion.
After playing around 60 games with both offense and more defensivly based teams, I'm voting to unban Victini.
Victini as a whole is a mon with base 100 stats around the board and a superb movepool. It has acess to Bolt Strike, U-turn, Energy Ball, Thunder, Glaciate, and Focus Blast, along with its 180 base power stab in V-create. Victini also has support options in Trick and Will-o-Wisp. Due to its extremly vast movepool Victini does not have many defenite counters (defensive Arcanine really being the only true counter), but still is checked by a large amount of mons including Aerodactyl, Swampert, Krookodile, Snorlax, Chandelure, Hydreigon, Salamence, and Suicune. Victini is also a pokemon that theorymons better than it performs. The drops from V-create leave you revenge by slower pokemon like Mamoswine, the choiced sets can be played around aslong as you still have resistances to its 2 main attacking moves, and the Life Orb set can be widdled by the Life Orb recoil and Stealth Rocks. Victini also suffers from 4mss. A user of Victini would need to choose between Glaciate to hit Salamence or Focus Blast to ohko Krookodile.
Victini will also not be overcentralizing to the tier. As OG_Wanka said above, you will need to run a check to it, but with there already being so many good checks to it that it doesn't make you run some weaker mons like Arcanine or Rotom. Victini will definatly hurt balance, but not to a point where it becomes unviable. The tier will definatly make another turn to being more offensive and I'm looking foward to playing this meta in the future.
Victini will definatly be a strong mon in the tier. Its powerful stab V-create hits everything hard and its amazing coverage will allow its Life Orb set to hit a lot of its counters. Despite its power and coverage, Victini still has enough checks to not be broken and it will definatly have positive effects on the metagame.
Free Tini
Victini as a whole is a mon with base 100 stats around the board and a superb movepool. It has acess to Bolt Strike, U-turn, Energy Ball, Thunder, Glaciate, and Focus Blast, along with its 180 base power stab in V-create. Victini also has support options in Trick and Will-o-Wisp. Due to its extremly vast movepool Victini does not have many defenite counters (defensive Arcanine really being the only true counter), but still is checked by a large amount of mons including Aerodactyl, Swampert, Krookodile, Snorlax, Chandelure, Hydreigon, Salamence, and Suicune. Victini is also a pokemon that theorymons better than it performs. The drops from V-create leave you revenge by slower pokemon like Mamoswine, the choiced sets can be played around aslong as you still have resistances to its 2 main attacking moves, and the Life Orb set can be widdled by the Life Orb recoil and Stealth Rocks. Victini also suffers from 4mss. A user of Victini would need to choose between Glaciate to hit Salamence or Focus Blast to ohko Krookodile.
Victini will also not be overcentralizing to the tier. As OG_Wanka said above, you will need to run a check to it, but with there already being so many good checks to it that it doesn't make you run some weaker mons like Arcanine or Rotom. Victini will definatly hurt balance, but not to a point where it becomes unviable. The tier will definatly make another turn to being more offensive and I'm looking foward to playing this meta in the future.
Victini will definatly be a strong mon in the tier. Its powerful stab V-create hits everything hard and its amazing coverage will allow its Life Orb set to hit a lot of its counters. Despite its power and coverage, Victini still has enough checks to not be broken and it will definatly have positive effects on the metagame.
Free Tini
People that are 'implying' this are probably arguing in terms of potential. Victini has a very deep movepool, and while it can't carry more than four moves, it has the potential to OHKO or 2HKO a lot of common switch ins. Scouting for its moveset is likely going to result in your team taking a large amount of damage. This essentially means that, for your team to reliably beat Victini, you need to carry physically defensive mega Ampharos or Arcanine (or maybe bulky Krookodile) on defensive builds, which is overcentralising in my opinion.
Edit: And Arcanine only switches in on the physical sets.
Last edited:
That's not really true:
32 SpA Life Orb Victini Psychic vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Arcanine: 157-187 (40.9 - 48.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
Defensive Arcanine is still one of the best checks to Victini out there, and does a great job against the choice sets, though. I used him for quite a bit when I first started out in the lower suspect ladder before deciding to try out a new team.
Its time for the post reqs thoughts on tini. I won't even lie to you my thoughts on tini right now are very mixed and I honestly could go either way with the ban or unban.
Going into this I thought Victini was going to devastate the tier and cause huge problems with many mons that are out there and just be another huge nuisance for balance, which it is, but it seems to have much less of an effect on other playstyles than I imagined. While playing as a tini user there are a LOT of things that I had to look out for when using tini as every team had at least 1 thing that could deal with and handle tini, these mons being things like Snorlax, Mega Ampharos, Arcanine, Porygon2, etc. and another mon that could revenge kill it if it decided to V-Create, such as m-aero, krook, etc. as many have listed above, however most of these mons I felt, really restrict teambuilding on balance and you need at least one of each to actually keep a balance team from not being complete garbage (not that balance has already had its fair share of problems with the introduction of Gatr and Mamoswine). One thing I do have to say about these mons is that they did their jobs proficiently and were able to thwart my wallbreaks on multiple occasion or make me have to switch tini in for a wasted 25% stealth rock damage. Sure victini has a lot of coverage moves, but even with all these moves that it can learn with its gigantic movepool, the counters we have to deal with tini do their job fairly proficiently. On the other side of the coin, when you do have the coverage moves to find a way to hit all your checks fairly well Victini can wreck havoc on an unprepared team, especially if you can freely spam v-create on a steel fairy core such as forry and florges and Mence has gotten taken care of by a stray glaciate. Even some prepared teams can have big trouble with victini WHEN it carries the right moves for that specific thing. The problem with tini is this; there are too many avaliable moves and not enough space for each moves. While scouting out a victini set may be a pain, I've seen a lot of high level teams be able to scout out victini's moves fairly well and be able to counter my victini set with relative ease and with the addition of the rocks damage of making me switch out my victini was gone before you know it. Honestly I am right on the fence about victini and could go either way with the vote, I hope to watch some of my friends ladder up and play with tini a little more before I go and vote but I can honestly see both sides for victini on how it can be a complete powerhouse at times completely demolishing teams with its movepool and can be completely able to be handled by certain pokemon in the meta.
TL;DR I'm currently undecided because there are two great sides to this argument and honestly after playing the meta there are times when I think tini is the most op mon there, and there are times when I think he's the waste of a spot on the team.
Going into this I thought Victini was going to devastate the tier and cause huge problems with many mons that are out there and just be another huge nuisance for balance, which it is, but it seems to have much less of an effect on other playstyles than I imagined. While playing as a tini user there are a LOT of things that I had to look out for when using tini as every team had at least 1 thing that could deal with and handle tini, these mons being things like Snorlax, Mega Ampharos, Arcanine, Porygon2, etc. and another mon that could revenge kill it if it decided to V-Create, such as m-aero, krook, etc. as many have listed above, however most of these mons I felt, really restrict teambuilding on balance and you need at least one of each to actually keep a balance team from not being complete garbage (not that balance has already had its fair share of problems with the introduction of Gatr and Mamoswine). One thing I do have to say about these mons is that they did their jobs proficiently and were able to thwart my wallbreaks on multiple occasion or make me have to switch tini in for a wasted 25% stealth rock damage. Sure victini has a lot of coverage moves, but even with all these moves that it can learn with its gigantic movepool, the counters we have to deal with tini do their job fairly proficiently. On the other side of the coin, when you do have the coverage moves to find a way to hit all your checks fairly well Victini can wreck havoc on an unprepared team, especially if you can freely spam v-create on a steel fairy core such as forry and florges and Mence has gotten taken care of by a stray glaciate. Even some prepared teams can have big trouble with victini WHEN it carries the right moves for that specific thing. The problem with tini is this; there are too many avaliable moves and not enough space for each moves. While scouting out a victini set may be a pain, I've seen a lot of high level teams be able to scout out victini's moves fairly well and be able to counter my victini set with relative ease and with the addition of the rocks damage of making me switch out my victini was gone before you know it. Honestly I am right on the fence about victini and could go either way with the vote, I hope to watch some of my friends ladder up and play with tini a little more before I go and vote but I can honestly see both sides for victini on how it can be a complete powerhouse at times completely demolishing teams with its movepool and can be completely able to be handled by certain pokemon in the meta.
TL;DR I'm currently undecided because there are two great sides to this argument and honestly after playing the meta there are times when I think tini is the most op mon there, and there are times when I think he's the waste of a spot on the team.
There is actually no one Pokemon that can fully wall every Victini set. Obviously the sets that boast invested V-create are the most dangerous, but I have been swept by the Specs set before, and Specs Psychic 2HKOs even PDef Mega Ampharos after Rocks. Is Mega Ampharos going to wall it 99.9% of the time? Yeah, but the best way to deal with Victini will be good general soft counters back with a little bit of offensive presence. I'm not entirely sure about Stall, but I'd guess that their primary concern is the mixed sets or CB, and they'll be able to more passively deal with stuff like Specs or Scarf.
This is where I'm at even after finishing req's, so nothing's changed since my initial thoughts. The suspect meta has definitely adapted to tackle Victini fairly well, but even then Victini still finds a way to either dismantle entire cores or sweep late game most proficiently. Both sides of the argument have valid points, but the theorymon vs the ladder are definitely at odds. I'm still not convinced one way or the other where Victini should go as I don't really mind the meta with or without Victini. I'm probably going to abstain at this rate just because no one side has given me a convincing argument that tips the scales to ban or keep Victini. Both metas are reasonable states for the current UU to stand. If someone finally brings up an argument that is different and convincing, I'd first have to applaud their rhetorical skills and then second would probably swing my vote that way.
- Status