Metagame np: Stage 5 - Eruption (Cameruptite and Typhlosion Banned)

[marilli]

I don't understand this argument about "typhlsion is choiced in order to 3hko the entire tier, and there's no way a choiced Pokemon is broken"

You don't have to predict with Typh to 3hko everything, but that doesn't mean that you can't. That's the bad thing about Typhlosion being in the meta. You need prediction to make progress with a choice user? Who would have thought?

Eruption 3hkos the entire tier anyways. But you can predict that and ohko with Hidden Power or whatever coverage and instantly kill a "counter". The prediction game is entirely skewed because Typhlosion needs to only predict once if they so feel like doing, and you've removed one of the 2 things that can tank a eruption on the opposing team. But Typhlosion player can always decide to "play it safe" and just spam eruption which 3hkos something anyways, then whatever "check" they brought in is basically too low to do anything else anymore. There's no reason to predict, and not predicting him will still give him a fair bit of advantage, but predicting right just once will put you so massively ahead that you'll basically win the game because there's no more switch into Typhlosion anymore.

I agree that there are a few checks to Typhlosion, but the problem isn't that you need to have 1 of those 7-8 Pokemon, you need to have 2 out of those 8. And many of them have terrible synergies anyways, so basically all balance teams look the same. All offense teams need mostly 100+ base speed Pokemon. There's a reason everyone is using Tauros or Sneasel or Archeops. If you use Zangoose instead, have fun losing a Pokemon every time you get a kill with Zangoose.

And I'm also tired of these "Typhlosion can't directly switch into anything!" arguments. That's why U-turns and Volt Switch exists. And usually when I bring typh in like that, it gets a kill every time it's out. And unlike Camerupt which also similarly gets a kill every time it's out, it outspeeds a lot of the tier. At least when I get a "free kill" with Megarupt at least the opponent can do like 30% to me and hopefully chip me down. You can't even do that with Typh. Also a lot of the things that outspeed are one of those super frail and not as wallbreaky Pokemon, and they can't even OHKO Typhlosion. lol.

w/e

 

[The Goomy]

Eruption 3hkos the entire tier anyways. But you can predict that and ohko with Hidden Power or whatever coverage and instantly kill a "counter". The prediction game is entirely skewed because Typhlosion needs to only predict once if they so feel like doing, and you've removed one of the 2 things that can tank a eruption on the opposing team. But Typhlosion player can always decide to "play it safe" and just spam eruption which 3hkos something anyways, then whatever "check" they brought in is basically too low to do anything else anymore. There's no reason to predict, and not predicting him will still give him a fair bit of advantage, but predicting right just once will put you so massively ahead that you'll basically win the game because there's no more switch into Typhlosion anymore.

I just don't understand how you can say that you just click eruption, then switch out and come back in later without ever taking any damage from hazards/switching in on an attack.
This is the problem with the pro ban argument, people always assume you're just chillin at 100% firing off 100% specs eruptions, when in all practicality that's rarely the case against good players/well constructed teams.

 

[Raseri]

I just don't understand how you can say that you just click eruption, then switch out and come back in later without ever taking any damage from hazards/switching in on an attack.
This is the problem with the pro ban argument, people always assume you're just chillin at 100% firing off 100% specs eruptions, when in all practicality that's rarely the case against good players/well constructed teams.

a well constructed team around Typhlosion will have ways to keep hazards off the field and provide it the (small) amount of support it needs. And we know that keeping hazards off the field in NU isnt very hard, since we actually have multiple ways to do so now, and all of which are very viable and work well with Typhlosion :) So i'm not a huge fan of this argument, while I do believe there is some truth to it (I am not 100% proban on Typhlosion) I think you understate the effect that the Typhlosion player can have on the match. If the tier wasnt full of Claydols, Xatus, Prinplups, Cryogonals (jk no one uses that xd), I would almost definitely support this, but right now the amount of hazard stoppers is immense.

I also really like this quote from marilli's post, which I think really sums up Typhlosion really well

The prediction game is entirely skewed because Typhlosion needs to only predict once if they so feel like doing, and you've removed one of the 2 things that can tank a eruption on the opposing team. But Typhlosion player can always decide to "play it safe" and just spam eruption which 3hkos something anyways, then whatever "check" they brought in is basically too low to do anything else anymore.

This is why i am ultimately pro-ban on Typhlosion. It doesn't need to predict to win games, nearly every prediction is optional, and having the ability to play it safe is incredible.

Ultimately I am pro ban on typhlosion, I might go into more detail about why later, but I think the way it skews the metagame is ultimately unhealthy, and its level of power is nearly unmatched.

 

[Disjunction]

Just by noting possible ways of coverage it has to get around these checks doesn't mean you'll get the prediction right 100% of the time, if that's the case ban magmortar because it has a way of hitting all of its checks with t-bolt, hp grass, focus blast, fire blast, eq, will-o, tackle, pound and string shot. :x
The reason why typhlosion is so good is because it doesn't require thought to use! It can sit there and spam its extremely powerful fire stabs and almost get a kill every time. This is the reason for the suspect test, this is the reason why it is S rank, due to extremely powerful eruption and fire blasts. These pokemon are extremely good checks and counters because it can force typhlosion out and get up your own damage on typh. Not to mention you can fit multiple checks on your team for fire types because water, fire, rock are all common types in this tier and you will naturally have 2-3 fire checks at least on every team without thinking about it. Typh has counters, it also has a fuck tonne of checks.

A counter would be something that can reliably switch in every time and beat it. That's why the coverage options are mentioned. I understand there's the prediction argument here, but because of Typhlosion's coverage options, there will never be a dedicated "counter" to Typhlosion. Yes, there are counters and checks for every set, but determining that set and preparing for EVERY set is what put Typhlosion up for a suspect, not just because it can spam Eruption. If it was only the standard Eruption/Fire Blast/HP Grass/Extrasensory I don't think there would be much of an argument here, but Typhlosion has adapted and changed very notably in the past month or so. The Charcoal set always seems to be mentioned first because of how different it is from the standard Specs set, but Specs also has the ability to replace a move slot for something like Hidden Power Electric, Earthquake, or even Will-O-Wisp (this was used in an SPL game iirc?) Yes, Typhlosion has a number of checks, but I'd say there is not a single mon in this meta that counters every Typhlosion set which is what makes it broken.
EDIT: ninja'd like 4 times but ok my point stands

 

[FlamingVictini]

Personally, I am unsure for both Cameruptite and Typhlosion. Typhlosion hits a solid speed tier and has amazing power with specs. Its not uncommon to see Charcoal sets with Will-o-Wisp as well to hit counters or bluff specs and hit a "counter" like toad that feels safe. Its a sheer powerhouse, and even if you set up rox to mitigate eruptions power, an endgame blaze boosted fire blast becomes very scary. Camerupt has solid bulk to make up for its poor speed stat, and has an amazing offensive typing and a lot of power to back up its attacks. However, both aren't so difficult to play around that i feel they are completely broken. Camerupt is slow, and Typhlosion is often limited and choiced into one attack. Typhlosion and Camerupt are both huge threats to balance for their wallbreaking power, and both threaten offense with its speed or bulk respectively. I haven't been overwhelmed by either so far though, so I would say no ban for now.

 

[The Goomy]

And we know that keeping hazards off the field in NU isnt very hard

Well, I disagree with this, but if you believe this to be true, then I can agree with your points. I just think that 100% typh at all times doesn't happen very often. That's why it's O_K that things get 3hkoed, b/c typh is getting worn down too.

Also:

Its a sheer powerhouse, and even if you set up rox to mitigate eruptions power, an endgame blaze boosted fire blast becomes very scary.

I don't understand why people keep talking about blaze so much. 80% ran flash fire, which is basically the superior ability in every way. If blaze made it broken, it would have been broken before.

 

[Disjunction]

I don't understand why people keep talking about blaze so much. 80% ran flash fire, which is basically the superior ability in every way. If blaze made it broken, it would have been broken before.

Usage shouldn't determine something's viability and Typhlosion's ability to pick between a Fire immunity and end game nuking potential is another one of its positive traits. We had the Typhlosion suspect argument before Flash Fire was released, but we had more important Pokemon to put up for testing instead that's why it wasn't suspected. Flash Fire certainly was not what set Typhlosion over the edge for a suspect, although I'm sure its release did not make the test itself anymore complicated. Blaze has the very nice benefit of taking that residual damage from Stealth Rock and converting it into an even stronger nuke than Eruption. I don't think either ability is necessarily outclassed by the other. Flash Fire is nice for halting other Specs Typhlosions and Blaze is nice if you're afraid your hazard control isn't reliable enough.

 

[Orphic]

Usage shouldn't determine something's viability and Typhlosion's ability to pick between a Fire immunity and end game nuking potential is another one of its positive traits. We had the Typhlosion suspect argument before Flash Fire was released, but we had more important Pokemon to put up for testing instead that's why it wasn't suspected. Flash Fire certainly was not what set Typhlosion over the edge for a suspect, although I'm sure its release did not make the test itself anymore complicated. Blaze has the very nice benefit of taking that residual damage from Stealth Rock and converting it into an even stronger nuke than Eruption. I don't think either ability is necessarily outclassed by the other. Flash Fire is nice for halting other Specs Typhlosions and Blaze is nice if you're afraid your hazard control isn't reliable enough.

I agree with this, 80% Flash Fire usage does not make the Blaze set any less broken. This test is long overdue since we had Mega-Steelix, Heliolisk, followed by Feraligatr to deal with, and this has meant we've taken a long time to finally get around to doing this. In the meantime, I don't feel like Typhlosion's viability has changed all that much, it's still just as broken as it was.

I honestly don't think we can find one "counter" in the whole tier. Using the proper definition that Disjunction just gave, what seriously switches in and beats Typh consistently. I wouldn't even count Hariyama since:
252 SpA Choice Specs Typhlosion Eruption (150 BP) vs. 0 HP / 252 SpD Assault Vest Thick Fat Hariyama: 118-139 (27.5 - 32.4%) -- guaranteed 4HKO.
252 SpA Choice Specs Typhlosion Eruption (150 BP) vs. 0 HP / 252 SpD Assault Vest Thick Fat Hariyama: 118-139 (27.5 - 32.4%) -- 99.2% chance to 3HKO after 2 layers of Spikes.
I understand these calcs are a little circumstantial, but my ultimate point is that without reliable recovery, Hariyama doesn't even switch in reliably. With chip damage and status etc, Typhlosion runs down entire teams even filled with its "counters" with decent team support.
Additionally:
252 SpA Choice Specs Typhlosion Eruption (150 BP) vs. 200 HP / 56 SpD Seismitoad: 191-225 (47.6 - 56.1%) -- 82.4% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery.
252 SpA Choice Specs Typhlosion Eruption (150 BP) vs. 200 HP / 56 SpD Seismitoad: 191-225 (47.6 - 56.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after 1 layer of Spikes and Leftovers recovery.
I don't doubt that these calcs aren't new to most people, but it's healthy to re-post some of them to turn on a light bulb in some of the minds of those who still think Typhlosion is not bad for the NU metagame. I've seen people saying that specially defensive Pelipper is a decent Typhlosion/Mega-Rupt check that has reliable recovery, I'll quickly dispel that myth:
252 SpA Choice Specs Typhlosion Eruption (150 BP) vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Pelipper: 146-172 (45.2 - 53.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery.
4 Atk Sheer Force Mega Camerupt Rock Slide vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Pelipper: 166-196 (51.3 - 60.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery, as well as Fire Blast also being a 2HKO.
PLUS:
0 SpA Pelipper Scald vs. 252 HP / 8 SpD Mega Camerupt: 288-340 (83.7 - 98.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO.
With only a small bit of investment, you aren't OHKO'd by Pelipper.

Essentially what I'm aiming to do is really show how little there is in this tier to actually switch in and fight back instantly, and hard, against these mons, and this post is particularly aimed at Typhlosion because that's the one that people are mostly disputing. I urge you guys who are considering voting no-ban, think back to when you have played Typh, you must at first sight in team preview instantly think about how you're going to combat it, I know I do. Secondly, you must have memories in your head where you've been torn apart at the seems by it, without answer because you played slightly aggressive with your one switch in. Sound familiar to anyone else? I don't really want another metagame of having to put 3 Typhlosion 'checks' in my first 3 slots not to get run down in the first game of the new ladder.

Hope this helped anyone who's on the fence~

 

[Absolute Zero]

Personally, I am unsure for both Cameruptite and Typhlosion. Typhlosion hits a solid speed tier and has amazing power with specs. Its not uncommon to see Charcoal sets with Will-o-Wisp as well to hit counters or bluff specs and hit a "counter" like toad that feels safe. Its a sheer powerhouse, and even if you set up rox to mitigate eruptions power, an endgame blaze boosted fire blast becomes very scary. Camerupt has solid bulk to make up for its poor speed stat, and has an amazing offensive typing and a lot of power to back up its attacks. However, both aren't so difficult to play around that i feel they are completely broken. Camerupt is slow, and Typhlosion is often limited and choiced into one attack. Typhlosion and Camerupt are both huge threats to balance for their wallbreaking power, and both threaten offense with its speed or bulk respectively. I haven't been overwhelmed by either so far though, so I would say no ban for now.

I agree about Cameruptite (I'm against ban too), but not about Thyplosion. Are you really saying that Thyplo isn't a huge threat for this meta? From what I see, it can defintely destroy your team even if you run a standard AV Hariyama (since the moment that basically your hariyama would not only used to stop Thyplo - and as we know Hari doesn't have a recovery move [rest??ahah] so soon or later it will die)! You had just to imagine that usually Hari runs CC, and if he use it, it get the drop, than...

252 SpA Choice Specs Typhlosion Eruption (150 BP) vs. -1 0 HP / 252 SpD Assault Vest Thick Fat Hariyama: 175-207 (40.7 - 48.2%) -- 6.6% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

What could basically switch in at this point? Seismitoad? Just take a look on Orphic calcs and than try to analyze better your opinion about "no ban per Thyplo"

 

[Shuckleking87]

I agree about Cameruptite (I'm against ban too), but not about Thyplosion. Are you really saying that Thyplo isn't a huge threat for this meta? From what I see, it can defintely destroy your team even if you run a standard AV Hariyama (since the moment that basically your hariyama would not only used to stop Thyplo - and as we know Hari doesn't have a recovery move [rest??ahah] so soon or later it will die)! You had just to imagine that usually Hari runs CC, and if he use it, it get the drop, than...

252 SpA Choice Specs Typhlosion Eruption (150 BP) vs. -1 0 HP / 252 SpD Assault Vest Thick Fat Hariyama: 175-207 (40.7 - 48.2%) -- 6.6% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

What could basically switch in at this point? Seismitoad? Just take a look on Orphic calcs and than try to analyze better your opinion about "no ban per Thyplo"

But hariyama would still kill typhlosion anyways even after the eruption. Granted it can use extrasensory but that is an odd point to make

 

[Toljik]

What tips Mega Camerupt over the edge for me is its ease of switching in. It shits on most Electric types because they run HP Ice or Grass for coverage (and HP Water on an Electric is a bad idea outside of hitting Camerupt) and is immune to two status moves.

 

[Absolute Zero]

But hariyama would still kill typhlosion anyways even after the eruption. Granted it can use extrasensory but that is an odd point to make

Ye in dmgs I calced Eruption but a *Blaze* Fire Blast would definitely 2HKO it with a drop :O

252 SpA Choice Specs Blaze Typhlosion Fire Blast vs. -1 0 HP / 252 SpD Assault Vest Thick Fat Hariyama: 192-226 (44.7 - 52.6%) -- 82.4% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

 

[Magis4Life]

What tips Mega Camerupt over the edge for me is its ease of switching in. It shits on most Electric types because they run HP Ice or Grass for coverage (and HP Water on an Electric is a bad idea outside of hitting Camerupt) and is immune to two status moves.

Yeah, one of the most annoying things about fire spam checks (and part of what makes fire spam so good in this tier) is that the majority of these checks (AV Hariyama, Mantine, Seismitoad, etc.) lack reliable recovery as well. Mega camerupt has quite a few qualities that make it imo the best offensive pivot. It possesses the qualities that a good ground type commonly possesses (it does well in providing sr support and checks electrics and fire types well) while also being the only bulky ground not weak to grass attacks, solidifying its ability to check fire spammers or even certain electric types that run grass knot/hp grass for coverage. This is a niche that I was fond of in camerupt back in xy (and I used to incorporate this mon in a lot of balanced/bulkier teams). With the advent of a mega, it gained more offensive power in general courtesy of sheer force and better offensive stats, which further increased its offensive pivoting skills as it fosters more switch ins. Consequently, it gained more flexibility in utilizing support moves like stealth rock and substitute. Furthermore, on top of its switch ins lacking reliable recovery, its checks are very susceptible to will-o-wisp, which wears them down further (or in AV Hariyama's case, crippling it severely). Mega camerupt utilizes this move very well too due to its enhanced flexibility not only from its offensive power but from its near perfect STAB coverage, which leaves it with limited switch ins. Mega camerupt is ofc worn down as well from hazards, being slow af and, therefore, usually having to take a hit before attacking, and being susceptible to toxic, but a well-played m-camerupt usually goes down after accomplishing its job (usually getting a kill or more, getting sr on the field, checking the fire spammers/electrics) and does it so well by the traits it has, even blowing past xatu, which is a significant quality of a sr user in general. I find these things to be alarming, as m-camerupt can easily be played aggressively as a pivot due to the numerous opportunities it has in firing its powerful offensive STAB moves while also taking advantage of its defensive strengths in switching in on some of the common types and pokes in the tier like poison, fairy, fire, grass, electric, etc. and the exuberant number of switches it forces.

 

[Fling]

Ye in dmgs I calced Eruption but a *Blaze* Fire Blast would definitely 2HKO it with a drop :O

252 SpA Choice Specs Blaze Typhlosion Fire Blast vs. -1 0 HP / 252 SpD Assault Vest Thick Fat Hariyama: 192-226 (44.7 - 52.6%) -- 82.4% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

Can you explain this scenario to me? Like is typh coming in to revenge kill yama after a cc or is typh taking a cc then hitting it next turn? It just kinda seems like you're just showing calcs that would very rarely come in to play.

 

[Absolute Zero]

Can you explain this scenario to me? Like is typh coming in to revenge kill yama after a cc or is typh taking a cc then hitting it next turn? It just kinda seems like you're just showing calcs that would very rarely come in to play.

Ye, basically *Blaze* Thyplo in what we can call a revenge-kill(?) after haryama used CC on *randompokemon*, ya they could be rare but when "we" have to decide if a pokemon deserve ban or not, I would like to focus on every possible scenario :x



ps: nice avatar ahah

 

[Orphic]

But hariyama would still kill typhlosion anyways even after the eruption. Granted it can use extrasensory but that is an odd point to make

Okay, that's saying your stupid enough to keep typh in and not go out to your garbodor/granbull/mantine/xatu/rotom/shedinja every other yama check. I just wanted to build on my post, taking this into account. Lets say you're extra ballsy and, like marilli, and you decide that since they switched in their yama and took 32% last time, you'll click Extrasensory this time:
252 SpA Choice Specs Typhlosion Extrasensory vs. 0 HP / 252 SpD Assault Vest Hariyama: 168-198 (39.1 - 46.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Bam, that's a 2HKO even if your Eruption scored minimum damage.
And yeah Fling, that scenario only works if you sack something to a Close Combat and try to revenge with your low HP Typhlosion, that's literally never happened in any battle.
Just gonna chuck some more slightly relevant calcs here:
252 SpA Choice Specs Typhlosion Eruption (150 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Magmortar: 113-133 (38.8 - 45.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after
Stealth Rock.
252 SpA Choice Specs Typhlosion Eruption (150 BP) vs. 252 HP / 240 SpD Eviolite Rhydon: 137-162 (33 - 39.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock - Good luck switching this in multiple times, the second time it comes in, Typh kills it next turn.

252 SpA Choice Specs Typhlosion Eruption (150 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Mantine: 92-108 (27.5 - 32.3%) -- 84.6% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery.
But let's say you're extra real and run this set:
252 SpA Choice Specs Typhlosion Hidden Power Electric vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Mantine: 200-236 (59.8 - 70.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery.

Overall my point is, nothing is really safe from Typh, the Rhydon calc is moot because HP grass exists, and you can never be sure whether your opponent will click Extrasensory, or whether they're a Mantine lure set with HP Electric, or even if they'll just spam the godly Eruption and rip apart your core. Let's be honest really, how much effort are you going through to rip apart someone's team with Typhlosion?

 

[The Goomy]

Okay, that's saying your stupid enough to keep typh in and not go out to your garbodor/granbull/mantine/xatu/rotom/shedinja every other yama check. I just wanted to build on my post, taking this into account. Lets say you're extra ballsy and, like marilli, and you decide that since they switched in their yama and took 32% last time, you'll click Extrasensory this time:
252 SpA Choice Specs Typhlosion Extrasensory vs. 0 HP / 252 SpD Assault Vest Hariyama: 168-198 (39.1 - 46.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Bam, that's a 2HKO even if your Eruption scored minimum damage.
And yeah Fling, that scenario only works if you sack something to a Close Combat and try to revenge with your low HP Typhlosion, that's literally never happened in any battle.
Just gonna chuck some more slightly relevant calcs here:
252 SpA Choice Specs Typhlosion Eruption (150 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Magmortar: 113-133 (38.8 - 45.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after
Stealth Rock.
252 SpA Choice Specs Typhlosion Eruption (150 BP) vs. 252 HP / 240 SpD Eviolite Rhydon: 137-162 (33 - 39.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock - Good luck switching this in multiple times, the second time it comes in, Typh kills it next turn.

252 SpA Choice Specs Typhlosion Eruption (150 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Mantine: 92-108 (27.5 - 32.3%) -- 84.6% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery.
But let's say you're extra real and run this set:
252 SpA Choice Specs Typhlosion Hidden Power Electric vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Mantine: 200-236 (59.8 - 70.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery.

Overall my point is, nothing is really safe from Typh, the Rhydon calc is moot because HP grass exists, and you can never be sure whether your opponent will click Extrasensory, or whether they're a Mantine lure set with HP Electric, or even if they'll just spam the godly Eruption and rip apart your core. Let's be honest really, how much effort are you going through to rip apart someone's team with Typhlosion?

Wait, wait. So on every calc, the opponent has to switch in on rocks, but Typhlosion is always magically at 100%? :suspicious:

 

[Teddeh]

Being locked into unfavorable moves such as hp water, hp electric, extrasensory are momentum killers for teams. Anything that can stop the spam of eruption is a very good check, enough to force it out and take extra hazard damage and stop eruption being useful which would mean having to rely on an inaccurate move in fire blast.

Also, I'd love to mention that if your point of "hazards are easy to keep off the field for typhlosion" then the same also applies to the defoggers and switch ins for typhlosion? mantine won't be taking rocks etc etc? Also might i add that switch ins to typhlosion give opportunities to setup rocks and hazards such as regirock, seismitoad, rhydon, prinplup? which means after 1 switch in, you can setup rocks and force it out with the thought of an attacking move that can seriously harm typh? it's not that easy to use typh as people are making it out to be, especially against good players.

 

[blinkie]

Ok I read through the thread and now I think I will be changing to No Ban on Typhlosion. The Charcoal set was what pushed me onto the fence, but now that I think about it, you have to take into account that it is not that easy to bluff, and it also lacks power that Specs had and speed Scarf had. For example, you predict a Hariyama to come in so you go WoW, but he went into Seismitoad, now your opponent knows everything. Unlike the Specs set, you can't just spam Eruption, so tbh I find Charcoal to be a somewhat suboptimal set that is only really good at luring in typical counters. While I may not be playing NU as my main tier, I still find that hazard removal isn't that easy, and I find many teams don't even have it. The best spinner Claydol is just a huge momentum killer and has no offensive presence. Most defoggers are also pretty passive, besides stuff like Archeops I guess, but most don't really fit too well with Typhlosion. Also stuff like (toxic) spikes exists, which wears down Typhlosion even more as it is grounded. You can't just use the argument of "Typhlosion can just come in for free to spam eruption" because even if it comes in on say a double switch, you will likely take hazards damage, and without Blaze Typhlosion basically has a limit on the times it can come in, which is worsened by it being Choice locked(one misprediction = forced out typhlosion). Also even if you predict right stuff like HP Grass will get you forced out by something like Sneasel. Considering stall relies on hazards, people really are overestimating Typhlosion's capabilities when they say "specs destroys stall". Keep in mind lots of mons can run Protect(seismitoad, mega audino) , to scout Typhlosion. As others have mentioned, priority is a huge problem for Typhlosion because as soon as Eruption gets weakened by something like say Kangaskhan Fake Out + Sucker, you cannot spam Eruption so freely anymore. Blaze Fire Blast may sound scary, but it means you are shut down easier by priority or hazards, etc. I find Typhlosion to be centralizing, but not necessarily to an unhealthy point, somewhat like Megagross in OU. Keep in mind Typhlosion is a mon that basically can't take a hit, so as long as you are faster, you are safe. As others have stated, people have adapted by running more Tauros and Sneasel, etc.

tldr; I don't think Typhlosion is broken, some points are being over exaggerated

 

[Punchshroom]

The problem is that Typhlosion's Eruptions are so powerful they already 3HKO a large majority of the tier at worst, with only a few edging out simply because of passive recovery:

252 SpA Choice Specs Typhlosion Eruption (150 BP) vs. 252 HP / 240 SpD Eviolite Rhydon: 137-162 (33 - 39.1%) -- 99.8% chance to 3HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Typhlosion Eruption (150 BP) vs. 200 HP / 252+ SpD Seismitoad: 140-165 (34.9 - 41.1%) -- 69.7% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Choice Specs Typhlosion Eruption (150 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Regirock: 117-138 (32.1 - 37.9%) -- 0.6% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Choice Specs Typhlosion Eruption (150 BP) vs. 252 HP / 8+ SpD Mantine: 110-129 (32.9 - 38.6%) -- 7% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

...and that is if it doesn't predict and smack the switch-in with a coverage move. The only common mons that easily avoid the 3HKO would be AV Hariyama and SpD Prinplup, but those two completely lack any recovery whatsoever so their advantage is diminished once again. The advantage is clearly geared towards the Typhlosion user even if they make the predictable move, so what's to say if they start playing smartly? In most cases, all Typhlosion needs is one good prediction and they can easily dash the opponent's hopes of countering it anymore. Sure, those moves can be momentum killers...or they can be outright game winners. Your interpretation. Basically yes, Typhlosion can be that easy to use.

Of course, Typh still needs some help getting around, but that's why it's put on the suspect slate later rather than sooner. Typh partners are still very competent at preventing / removing hazards, be it Xatu, Prinplup, or Claydol. What pushed Typh over the edge for me is that the Charcoal Flash Fire set is gaining prominence (and is a strong set in its own right), and has all the tools it needs to break down most of its usual counters, which they more or less have to switch in due to the sheer threat level that standard Typh poses (essentially, think of this as BW physical Charizard / Samurott capitalizing on their special set's fearsome reputation). A Charcoal set like this could have been replicated before, but with its current access to Flash Fire Typhlosion now possesses both defensive utility and a way to re-access the power of the Specs set; now not only do you have to contend with the fact that Typhlosion can systematically pick off / cripple its own counters, but you'd also have to be much more wary about throwing around Fire attacks. This places a huge strain on teambuilding, as having just one Typh counter simply isn't enough / reliable anymore.

Typhlosion didn't become 'stronger', but its increased versatility combined with what I've already said to be the best speed-to-power ratio amongst all NU Pokes is beginning to become a problem for meta diversity. I mean blinkie above talked about using Yama and Toad to scout Typh's sets safely, but unless you're using specially defensive Toad alongside Yama that's still not going to work out:

252 SpA Choice Specs Typhlosion Eruption (150 BP) vs. 200 HP / 56 SpD Seismitoad: 191-225 (47.6 - 56.1%) -- 25.8% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Charcoal Typhlosion Eruption (150 BP) vs. 200 HP / 56 SpD Seismitoad: 153-180 (38.1 - 44.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

If that's not a sign of overcentralisation I don't know what is.

 

[honchkrow]

252 SpA Choice Specs Typhlosion Eruption (150 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Regirock: 117-138 (32.1 - 37.9%) -- 0.6% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Choice Specs Typhlosion Eruption (150 BP) vs. 252 HP / 8+ SpD Mantine: 110-129 (32.9 - 38.6%) -- 7% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

unless you are as lucky as i am, you arent 3 hit ko'ing these mons. Typh can be dealt with. We have a lot of very good mons in the tier that you need to prepare for. If you dont run a flying resist, and you face an archeops, is archeops suddenly broken? I think people need to adjust their teambuilding when a huge threat is present in the tier. Im usually against banning mons unless i see then being completely centralizing like heliolisk. This is why im voting no ban.

 

[Kiyo]

Alright so I don't really have a ton of time to read through these posts right now, but so far I've seen a lot of "they restrict teambuilding" as an argument, and people have been applying it to both suspects. As far as I'm concerned that statement only rings true for Mega Camerupt.

As I'm sure many other have pointed out, Typhlosion is by no means impossible to switch into. In fact, its really not all that difficult, whereas Camerupt poses a much larger threat due to its strong neutral coverage with Earth Power. You consistenly have to run a Pokemon that checks both Fire-type and Ground-type moves, and frankly NU just doesn't have the tools to do that without relying on very specific Pokemon that can be taken advantage of easily with coverage moves, lures, and offensive pressure. Generally speaking, being able to get around counters should be difficult. But that's just not the case with Mega Camerupt.

As far as Typhlosion goes, yeah its strong, we get it. But having to prep for one type attack and not being 4x weak to a coverage move is without debate, simple. There is no way you can say Typhlosion restricts team building any more than another type. Fighting-types are strong so we run Poison-types, Grass-types can be threatening so we run Grass-, Fire-, and Flying types to check them. It's not restrictive to teambuilding, its just reinforcing the fundamentals of type synergies. If Typhlosion wasn't in the tier, you would still be running something to resist Fire-type attacks. Just like you need to account for CM Psychics, Flying-, Normal-, Fighting-, and Water-type attacks. With an abundance of Pokemon that resist Fire, and aren't necessarily 4x weak to a Hidden Power, Typhlosion just increases the need for a Fire-type check, it doesn't single handedly force you to have one, and by no means are there a lack of solid checks/counters or they'd sure as hell be unbalanced by now, and not just in NU.

Those are my thoughts on teambuilding restrictions relating to the suspects, when I get time I'll post stuff regarding the other main points made.

 

[Orphic]

As far as Typhlosion goes, yeah its strong, we get it. But having to prep for one type attack and not being 4x weak to a coverage move is without debate, simple. There is no way you can say Typhlosion restricts team building any more than another type. Fighting-types are strong so we run Poison-types, Grass-types can be threatening so we run Grass-, Fire-, and Flying types to check them. It's not restrictive to teambuilding, its just reinforcing the fundamentals of type synergies. If Typhlosion wasn't in the tier, you would still be running something to resist Fire-type attacks. Just like you need to account for CM Psychics, Flying-, Normal-, Fighting-, and Water-type attacks. With an abundance of Pokemon that resist Fire, and aren't necessarily 4x weak to a Hidden Power, Typhlosion just increases the need for a Fire-type check, it doesn't single handedly force you to have one, and by no means are there a lack of solid checks/counters or they'd sure as hell be unbalanced by now, and not just in NU.

I have a huge problem with the parts I bolded here, particularly the last one. Considering Typhlosion 3HKO's all of its checks (not literally but you know), it naturally 2HKO's and mostly OHKO's the rest of the unresisted tier, we all know this. So with Typhlosion in our tier, I think you cannot say that it doesn't single handedly force you to bring a fire check, unless you want to lose at team matchup. If anything, it forces you to bring more fire checks than you normally would! Essentially I disagree with you saying that it's not restrictive to teambuilding, as we all know we prepare for it on every team we make.

As for the second bolded part, you are correct, but our point is that it's almost like the fire resists do not resist Typhlosion with the ease in which it takes them down. Whereas those same fire checks can handle the other fire types in the tier, and like I said in my first point, you might be able to get away with not bringing a fire resist against the other fire types.

EDIT: this isn't a personal attack :] I just think you are crazy if you have made a team with no fire checks and not been scared of typh ;]

 

[Kiyo]

I have a huge problem with the parts I bolded here, particularly the last one. Considering Typhlosion 3HKO's all of its checks (not literally but you know), it naturally 2HKO's and mostly OHKO's the rest of the unresisted tier, we all know this. So with Typhlosion in our tier, I think you cannot say that it doesn't single handedly force you to bring a fire check, unless you want to lose at team matchup. If anything, it forces you to bring more fire checks than you normally would! Essentially I disagree with you saying that it's not restrictive to teambuilding, as we all know we prepare for it on every team we make.

As for the second bolded part, you are correct, but our point is that it's almost like the fire resists do not resist Typhlosion with the ease in which it takes them down. Whereas those same fire checks can handle the other fire types in the tier, and like I said in my first point, you might be able to get away with not bringing a fire resist against the other fire types.

EDIT: this isn't a personal attack :] I just think you are crazy if you have made a team with no fire checks and not been scared of typh ;]

I seriously don't think you're forced to run a Fire check simply because of Typhlosion. I've made plenty of succesful teams with no fire resists that simply take advantage of momentum swings and keep up offensive pressure. And the only playstyle you're "forced" to run multiple checks to typh on is balance, both stall and offense can get by with a single check or counter.

I'll be the first to tell you that getting rid of hazards in this tier is ridiculously easy, but nearly all available tools to clear hazards cause a huge loss in momentum. That can be taken advantage of a lot easier than most people will make it out to be. As someone who's ran a lot of Prinplup and Claydol, I can tell you its very easy to fall behind quickly if clearing hazards becomes the priority. I'd kind of equate Typhlosion to some cards in Hearthstone oddly enough, in offensive matchups it'll win you the game if you're already ahead or at a neutral standing, but if you fall behind, then more often than not it will not bring you back.

tl;dr force typh out with fast mon, get up rocks without letting typh get in (most rock setters can ohko typh), take advantage of the need to clear hazards by setting up, voltturning, double switching favorably, etc. OR they don't clear hazards and typh isn't as effective cuz its just another Fire type again.

^ thats a lot easier in practice than on paper, and doesn't require a fire type resist

 

[HJAD]

I seriously don't think you're forced to run a Fire check simply because of Typhlosion. I've made plenty of succesful teams with no fire resists that simply take advantage of momentum swings and keep up offensive pressure. And the only playstyle you're "forced" to run multiple checks to typh on is balance, both stall and offense can get by with a single check or counter.

I'll be the first to tell you that getting rid of hazards in this tier is ridiculously easy, but nearly all available tools to clear hazards cause a huge loss in momentum. That can be taken advantage of a lot easier than most people will make it out to be. As someone who's ran a lot of Prinplup and Claydol, I can tell you its very easy to fall behind quickly if clearing hazards becomes the priority. I'd kind of equate Typhlosion to some cards in Hearthstone oddly enough, in offensive matchups it'll win you the game if you're already ahead or at a neutral standing, but if you fall behind, then more often than not it will not bring you back.

tl;dr force typh out with fast mon, get up rocks without letting typh get in (most rock setters can ohko typh), take advantage of the need to clear hazards by setting up, voltturning, double switching favorably, etc. OR they don't clear hazards and typh isn't as effective cuz its just another Fire type again.

^ thats a lot easier in practice than on paper, and doesn't require a fire type resist

This wouldn't normally be a problem, but, offense without a fire check just gets destroyed by scarf typh, since half your team is no longer a check, it can come in on tauros / jumpluff / sneasel / fast mon and proceed to click eruption. If you have no fire resist at all, it would seem kinda bad at this point at you would probably have to sack loads of pokemon as a result.
Keeping offensive pressure works vs camel definitely, since its speed is ass, but typh can run a scarf and technically just sweep the offense? Forced out by priority etc but I'm not convinced you can stack a team with base 100+ speed mons with eq / coverage and not be weak to typh, without a fire resist.