np: XY UU Stage 2 - Light Em Up

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Bad Ass

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don't typecast the council hombre. i am a staunch supporter of keeping all playstyles, including full stall, viable. furthermore, i've always supported banning pokemon that promote spamming offense at the other team until they lose.

- if a pokemon makes a usually viable playstyle obsolete, it is too centralizing (even if it does have a decent check or counter). so be it drizzle, which could outright demolish most offense teams, chansey, who made half the tier wall bait, or magnezone, who (questionably) made stall teams a liability, i don't care.

i dunno what your argument is, pif. all of our bans are backed up by reasoning which we have to post in the council PM. all of our members are the most qualified in the tier to vote.
 
Anything above 100 Speed can check it, such as Raikou and Galvantula. Im even sure Infernapes with ThunderPunch could check manaphy but I'm not sure about that. There are most likely more than that but i didn't think of them. Off the top of my head though that's 1 counter and 3 checks which doesn't seem justifiable to let Manaphy into UU. I say keep him in BL. With its average 100 BST it seems ok, But tail glow is just too good of a boosting move along with its typing and move pool to let into UU
Infernape only really works if Manaphy has prior damage/switches in on the ape and tries to set up.

252 Atk Life Orb Iron Fist Infernape Thunder Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Manaphy: 221-260 (64.8 - 76.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Also, I sort of figured banning Tail Glow wouldn't pass as an idea. Initially I thought it was a signature for Manaphy, making it a bit less complex. Totally forgot Volbeat until I checked.
 
Has anyone tried SpDef Mega Abomasnow? I'd elaborate more, but I'm on my phone. Suffice to say, it takes +3 Life Orb Ice Beam to 2HKO you from full, and Giga Drain prevents that KO anyway.
 

Sage

From the River To the Sea
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SpD Mega Aboma still has a horrible defensive typing, and only recovery is Leech Seed. It does do well vs Manaphy, but honestly this shows how were scrapping to find true counters to Manaphy. I don/t really think Obama would be a good team member because A) most special attackers have coverage to shit on him, he's weak to rocks so he may not be at the full health he needs to be able to counter these threats. B) No reliable recovery is bad, even with Giga Drain and Leech Seed. While Blizzard does deter Grass's from switching in, it opens up the giant fire weakness that like eveything has. Honestly hes hit Super Effectively by literally every offensive threat in the tier except for some ground types and some water Types
 

kokoloko

what matters is our plan!
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hilarious i'm not sure how my attitude is relevant to my point but sure keep bringing up tangential garbo arguments to try to make yourself look better, all good. do me a favor though, if you're going to reply to this, do it over PM. done clogging this thread. bringing up my lack of Proper Grammar as an argument? you serious?

Limitless, and others, i guess: you're misunderstanding, i don't think we should cater more towards offensive playstyles than stall when we tier. i am firmly on the ground that we shouldn't cater to /any/ playstyles when we tier--all styles should adapt to threats. i keep bringing up stall because thats the one style that keeps lagging behind on every test we do.
 
I think the fundamental issue lying in the UnderUsed Council system is the lack of community interaction in the tiering/banning process. Unlike the suspect testing in the other tiers, the Koko method relies on the decisions on a handpicked council, which could either be biased based on favoritism on Koko's part (kind of unlikely) or playstyle bias to some degree (which may sound like a ridiculous claim but can definitely be a potential bias factor). Either way, I don't know how long it will take for Smogon to implement a PS Ranking link to your smogon account, but when it does happen I suggest decision via Elo and/or Glicko.

To be blunt, Elo is a considerable factor for determining a player's raw ranking in a metagame and Glicko (from what I know from Chess Glicko rating) determines how skilled the person is in the metagame (differentiates People who rip teams from Team Showcase to climb from actual good players). By using these two factors, you can create a threshold for a voting pool. You can use this group created by this threshold to discuss and vote on potential suspects in the metagame. This creates two things:

1) A goal for ladder climbers to achieve
2) A larger sample size/voting pool to reduce potential bias

Regarding the first point, I personally feel that UU kind of lacks a goal for players to achieve other than to continue climbing. Whereas suspect tests encourage players to get past a certain ladder qualifications to vote, UU has none of that competitive climbing (Beating kokoloko 's and hilarious ' ladder rankings is an admirable goal don't get me wrong ;) ). By installing this kind of laddering function, it's make laddering in UU more.

The second point comes from a statistical view. Considering how large the UU playerbase is (which is pretty substantial) and how many players sit at a high ladder ranking, I honestly think that 11 really good UU players is hardly a large enough sample size to make a decision. By increasing the sample size from "Council" to "Top Ladder Players + Council", you have a larger pool of players who achieve and maintain high ladder ranking through different playstyles (e.g. hilarious ' use of stall and kokoloko 's and someone else's use of Rain Offense). By having multiple viewpoints regarding top-tier play, you have a better voting pool that can reduce decision or playstyle preference bias in a smaller sample size.

Now, I know this kind of sounds like Suspect Testing, but there are a couple of amendments that makes it different.

1) Players who achieve the ranking are put in the voting pool unless below.
2) Inactivity on the ladder, failure to vote in to consecutive voting rounds, or falling below a certain position on the UU ladder* (such as a super-bad tilt) are removed unless they can redeem themselves.

*This part is slightly up for debate since the way the ladder functions may call for readjustments for qualifications (i.e. ladder inflation)

For very high-level players (e.g. top 20 UU ladder), this shouldn't affect you at all, but this method allows for ladderers who are at the cutoff and are in risk of dropping to cultivate better battling techniques and strive for a better understanding of the metagame. This pool of top ladderers serve as a decision committee for retests and potential bans. Through discussion, they (theoretically) can discuss potentially broken Pokemon that should be brought to the Council's attention. Furthermore, the council still reserves the power to call for a ban discussion on an element of a metagame (i.e. a Shadow Tag), but the decision comes down to a vote session from both the top ladder players as well as the Council. For example, if hilarious says that U-Turn should be banned, it's just merely a discussion point and has no real impact. However, if one of the council members calls for a suspect on U-Turn, a council + top-ladder playerbase vote ensues. I know that voting is a major hassle to everybody, both for voters and those who have to tally up the votes, but I'm sure some solution might come to light. For retests and tri-monthly drop bans, this becomes less convoluted as the "suspect" stage is essentially the week it's released from BL, so all that To emphasize council authority, council member votes are worth 2 while the others are worth 1.

It's definitely not perfect, but it's a very viable method once Smogon finds a way to synchronize PS! alts with Smogon user accounts. I've defended the Smogon method multiple times when people say that Smogon rules are a dictatorship. Simply put, Smogon "does not ban Pokemon; the community agrees on whether or not it should be banned or not". After being anti-Koko method for quite a while, I can see what Koko is trying to attempt with the banning of potentially broken Pokemon, but in the process UnderUsed has deviated a bit from the original intention of Smogon and competitive battling in general. By putting some of the decision power back into the community, UnderUsed can still achieve Kokoloko's goal for a more streamlined process in dealing with broken shit while still making the community feel that they are being proactive in the tier.

Also, this heavily relies on the fact PS! stats and Smogon account synchronization, so please don't post arguments on feasibility. And for those who are wondering about this, if you go to anyone's profile, the last tab says "PS! rank".
 

kokoloko

what matters is our plan!
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we're doing a different suspecting method once we do all the initial testing (we have like 5 things left after manaphy) anyway. the idea was to get /that/ stage done as quickly as possible. we can be more lax with the second round of testing. this method, which has been pitched to me on a few different occasions, is my top candidate atm.

no more posts about it pls.
 
Upper and Lower houses? Seems nice. (It was called a senate at one point...)


ANYWAY ABOUT MANAPHY: I've been using LO Virizion with Leaf Blade/CC/Stone Edge/Synthesis and it does the job most of the time. Base 129 spD mean it really doesn't mind switching into unboosted ice beams. Things would get rough if people started running scald, though. SR resist+ reliable recovery means Virizion can come in multiple times on Manaphy, unlike other checks like Rotom-C. I really don't have a problem with Manaphy (besides "overcentralization", I guess). Even when opponents run Virizion checks like Crobat I can Stone Edge on the switch and KO with SR up.
 

Bluwing

icequeen
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Ive seen people use alot off stuff too counter/check manaphy and tbh i think people overprepare for it and just makes them weak to something else. Manaphy is indeed extremely good vs stall and more balanced teams therefore i will suggest people too check it with offensive pressure, simply not allowing it to set up which then again makes manaphy kinda harmless, this is indeed what ive experinced and is just a little "pro tip" too those people struggling with it.
 
Manaphy's bulk makes it difficult to put enough offensive pressure on it to prevent it setting up. 100/100/100 bulk is excellent bulk by itself, only made better by pure Water typing and Tail Glow. This is not a Pokemon like Infernape or Lucario who are so frail they HAVE to have a free turn to set-up; Manaphy is entirely capable of absorbing one or two moderately powerful hits and having plenty of HP to spare for a sweep. It can also run a moderately effective mono-attacking set thanks to Hydration, so you don't even risk bad Sleep Talk turns while you get the rain boost on your attacks.
 

Bluwing

icequeen
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this is indeed true, but i think you misunderstood what i meant. when i'm saying deal with it by using offensive pressure, i mean try to wear it down to when it sets up you can predict the tail glow as manaphy is kinda weak without the boost and then kill it off with something faster. ofc i don't mean that manaphy is easy to deal with because it is not, but i have noticed that it struggles to set up vs offense and therefor i see this as a better way to deal with it than just using random stuff with assvest or pokemon that ONLY deals with manaphy and nothing else.. ofc the bulky cm set is harder to deal with for offense, but a well build team should be able to deal with any threath defensive or offensive it doesn't matter.
 
I don't think you quite understand what it means for a Pokemon to be broken. You said that a well-built team should be able to handle any offensive or defensive threat, but Pokemon exist that can't be handled, and those are our suspects. Manaphy is one such suspect. You're speaking in extremely broad terms ("Just use offensive pressure!") and it doesn't help us see how or why that makes Manaphy not broken. If you could supply us with evidence of your theory in practice with replays (high level replays, too, no 1100 garbage where the guy you're playing doesn't know how to use Manaphy) then you have an argument.
 

Bluwing

icequeen
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the reason why im saying use offensive pressure is because that what is working best against it as the tail glow set is the most used one, i never stated that it was not broken, tho a pokemon might be broken doesn't mean a team cannot handle it. i see manaphy as a more off an pokemon who breaks playstyles especially stall/bulky teams and can also beat offensive teams with the bulky cm set. i understand perfectly fine for what it means for a pokemon to be broken and don't come here with your 1100's bullshit cause ive peaked #1 on that ladder quite a few times before i just got back i know this is not relevant for the topic but that sentence kinda pissed me off, im happy to discuss with you about the topic, but don't come with that im som garb player that knows nothing.
 
the reason why im saying use offensive pressure is because that what is working best against it as the tail glow set is the most used one, i never stated that it was not broken, tho a pokemon might be broken doesn't mean a team cannot handle it. i see manaphy as a more off an pokemon who breaks playstyles especially stall/bulky teams and can also beat offensive teams with the bulky cm set. i understand perfectly fine for what it means for a pokemon to be broken and don't come here with your 1100's bullshit cause ive peaked #1 on that ladder quite a few times before i just got back i know this is not relevant for the topic but that sentence kinda pissed me off, im happy to discuss with you about the topic, but don't come with that im som garb player that knows nothing.
Oh snap guys, we got someone who peaked #1 QUITE A FEW TIMES in the thread. Sound the badass alert.

Jokes aside: How exactly do you apply "offensive pressure" when it goes to set up, even on non-stall teams? Odds are it is going to use a favorable switch-in to take minimal damage, forcing you to switch out and giving it a free turn to Tail Glow. Then you have to hope you have something fast enough to beat a positive speed nature base 100, while still having sufficient power. Not saying it's totally impossible, but it isn't an easy task whatsoever.
 
The 1100 comment was from seeing a painful amount of replays from extremely low on the ladder with abysmal play on both sides used as evidence, some of them in this topic. That being said, good for you, topping out on the ladder. Now let's see those replays. I heard Koko is running a decent rain team, go challenge him. Better yet, have Limitless put together a team with Manaphy, and let's see that replay.

Until you give us cold hard evidence that "offensive pressure" can prevent Manaphy from setting up, the boatloads of evidence against Manaphy will make sure he stays BL.
 

Bluwing

icequeen
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go check the replay thread instead where there is an replay where both me and limitless where running manaphy and didn't get too set up, i never said it was easy im just saying out from my own exeperience i find it as the easiest way to deal with it! if peaked #1 or w/e that was not relevant to the topic at all you just kinda pissed me off thats it, im just trying to help out from my experience don't act like dipshits just because you don't fully agree!

EDIT: this is why manaphy is broken.. you simply have too beat it with offensive pressure, idk where we don't agree on that part but ok.

ill post this reply too so you can see for yourselves
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/uu-152668431
 
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KM

slayification
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offensive pressure is the only way to counter manaphy. bluwing is 100% right. If you run scarf rotom - c + mienshao or whatever then it's going to be very hard for manaphy to set up. Doesn't mean it's useless, but that's absolutely the best way to deal with it in this meta

don't jump down his throat lol he is a really good player and he knows what he's talking about so keep the derision to a minimum
 

SJCrew

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While we're posting replays, here's another ULT match between myself and dingbat where a bulky Manaphy set up on Blissey and proceeded to control the rest of the match.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/uu-153181794
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/uu-153181794
Even though my opponent had a Virizion, he couldn't get it in safely before Manaphy managed to snag a couple of KOs. You could probably assume that the initial Blissey switch-in was a misplay, as Virizion switching in right away would have forced Manaphy out. But, judging by how Blissey proceeded to set up Stealth Rock and that he just switched out a burned Crobat (switching Virizion in at that point might have gotten him burned too), he probably made what he thought was a safe play.

Offensive pressure to keep Manaphy from setting up is a limited countermeasure and it will probably be the most centralizing threat in UU if it is allowed to stay. I'm erring on the side of a ban.
 

Bluwing

icequeen
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we are all probably erring on the side of a ban, indeed manaphy has ways to beat offensive pressure, and yes it has all the right tools to deal with what it wants too. i don't think there is anyone here claiming that offensive pressure is good enough for manaphy to stay because it is not! it's just a way to deal with it's most common set which is the tail glow set, and both sets is really good, the only difference is bulk over coverage which leaves mono attacker manaphy prone to pokemon like lum berry virizion, toxicroak etc. anyway i think people clearly can see that manaphy is very centralizing atm and that people find it hard to beat because off it's amazing typing, coverage, ability, set up moves and bulk which clearly is too much for the meta.
 
While we're posting replays, here's another ULT match between myself and dingbat where a bulky Manaphy set up on Blissey and proceeded to control the rest of the match.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/uu-153181794
Even though my opponent had a Virizion, he couldn't get it in safely before Manaphy managed to snag a couple of KOs. You could probably assume that the initial Blissey switch-in was a misplay, as Virizion switching in right away would have forced Manaphy out. But, judging by how Blissey proceeded to set up Stealth Rock and that he just switched out a burned Crobat (switching Virizion in at that point might have gotten him burned too), he probably made what he thought was a safe play.

Offensive pressure to keep Manaphy from setting up is a limited countermeasure and it will probably be the most centralizing threat in UU if it is allowed to stay. I'm erring on the side of a ban.
Honestly, I think the misplay was keeping Virizion in vs Celebi. The psychic move was a big threat, and the only hope of killing Celebi would have been on the Stone Edge crit. Krook would have blocked the Zen while risking a predicted switch, and Victini would have taken either hit and lived to kill. Either way, Virizion would still be able to threaten Manaphy. Was going to say keeping in Blissey was a misplay, but I figure he was sacrificing it to allow for a safe switch.

Of course, I'm just some scrub player critiquing higher level play, but that's how I see it.
 

dingbat

snek
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Manaphy is really fking borked, ignoring the fact that I've been playing like total shit recently. .-. It's definitely the suspect I've struggled with most out of all the ones I've had experience with.

First off, there are absolutely no defensive switch-ins to Manaphy once it has set up its first Tail Glow, outside of Blissey, Empoleon, and lolShedinja... except Empoleon can't really do any significant damage back (yeah, don't even try to Grass Knot it) and Shedinja is just a shitmon lol, which leaves Blissey as the one "reliable" defensive switch-in to Manaphy. Except what happens when Manaphy is able to work around Blissey by utilising 101 HP Substitutes, as I have realized in one of the battles I had today against SJ Crew? Defensive switch-ins basically no longer a way to deal with Manaphy, which leaves just offensive pressure to tackle on Manaphy, which has already been discussed to decent length above from my post.

While I may have a little personal bias about Manaphy due to my tendency of using Semi-stall frequently and being much inferior with offensive tactics, I'm sure that about everyone else feels the same way about how terribly difficult it is to beat Manaphy effectively, regardless of the playstyles used against the Manaphy team.
 

Bluwing

icequeen
is a Tutor Alumnus
ive noticed that abomasnow mega is a really good check too manaphy with hail stopping it's lefties recovery, and the tail glow set doesn't do more than max 61% to it with ice beam after an boost, and seed bomb + ice shard ko's with hail damage, it also beats the cm manaphy regarding no burn ofc. abomasnow is also really good outside only checking manaphy and has great coverage and good offensive typing, priority in ice shard bypassing it's low speed, and earthquake for all those fire types that switches in on it. it also can run either swords dance or leech seed in the last slot, but leech seed is prefered as it works well with hail damage + it gives aboma more longivity.
 
Ive given up trying to counter or check manaphy. Honestly, thinking of a core that can handle tail glow and 3 attacks is just stupid. I slapped curselax on my team and hazards to wear down my opponent. A +1 return has a 98% to 2hko 0/0 manaphy, while it needs to be at +6 to cleanly 2hko 144/176+ lax. 4 turn to 2hko snorlax versus 3 turn to 2hko manaphy. I also run blissey to finish it off if lax doesnt do his job.

But, manaphy is pretty screwed up. Its either we force ourselves past man with "pressure" or have dedicated special walls to tank the hits or use obsecure cores thatvare normally easily beaten. I really hope this suspeft test doesnt last til the end of the month like koko said in the beginning...
 
I've been messing with Mabomasnow a lot recently too, since I saw someone post something in an RU thread about SD+Ice Shard (Thanks whoever you are!). It's great in that the set can both wreck stall and clean up offense simultaneously, and it contributes to the wearing process with the hail and potentially leech seed support it provides.

I've tried a bunch of shit with it, I got up to 1600 with a stally support team with Tspikes support to wear down the enemy as much as possible, trying to put everything into a range where Aboma can sweep. I just sort of threw the team together, but it went well enough for a while. I've also been trying it with the Baton Pass Umbreon + Volt switch Forretress + Banded Dugtrio core Kitten Milk posted about, to remove the Steel and Fire types that stand in Aboma's way, but that's definitely going less well, might try a more stally pivot team.
I actually use SD/IceShard/BulletSeed/LeechSeed, because all I'm really going to be hitting with earthquake is switchins and maybe forretress, and leech seeding them lets them be dealt with more easily by the other mons on your team anyway. It also turns Blissey into setup bait, which is always good.

Overall, a nice mon in the current meta.
 
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