Resource XY NU Viability Ranking

[Brawlfest]

I read the post, I didn't mention the lead set because I didn't think it was worth considering. Having considered it, I agree it has a niche, being able to do a few hings other suicide leads can't. However it has problems as a suicide lead. It doesn't learn spikes, it's slow and easy to taunt, and it doesn't offer utility later in the game, for reasons already stated. So yeah, C rank for filling a niche, but being generally outclassed by crustle seems fair.

Edit: also it doesn't matter if it's niche is to check things, as basically any pokemon worth using checks at least some pokemon, which a very frail rock type can't really do.

I'm just saying, that Rampardos's fits its niche well due to its ability. Unlike any other lead in the metagame, it packs Mold Breaker, allowing it to get past even Xatu to get its Stealth Rock up, and easily OHKO'ing Crustle leads off the bat to prevent them from laying a single hazard down. It isn't even slow, as it normally runs Jolly with its 58 base speed, it actually outpaces a good portion of NU's slower pokemon, and its high base attack makes it p difficult to switch into anyways, making it an incredible lead for offensive teams that hate Crustle / Xatu.

Rock Polish and Mixed LO are also really solid, and are incredibly strong.

B- / B imo.

 

[Zenza]

Some things I've been thinking about:
Ninetales from B to B+
Just a slight change here, but I feel Ninetales isn't getting the love it deserves. While it may seem rather weak due to it's pretty low sp. atk stat, between it's powerful coverage moves and incredible boosting moves, Ninetales is a monster. First,Energy ball let's it take care of common threats such as seismitoad and rhydon. Then there is psyshock. Psyshock gives Ninetales a huge niche over other fire types like typhlosion and pyroar, because it let's Ninetales muscle pass what would checks like drag algae and hariyama, hitting them on their weaker side. Lastly Nasty plot let's Ninetales muscle it's way past special walls such as audino, as while Ninetales is boosting their is nothing they can do but knock off your lefties. With access to nasty plot, a good speed tier, and a vast array of coverage moves, Ninetales destroys most balance/stall teams and should be higher than B.

Linoone from B- to C
Linoone really doesn't deserve to be above C rank. Due to it's frailness, Linoone needs almost excessive team support to have a chance at doing it's job (memento users, dual screens, hazards etc.). Not only this, but Linoone is also incredibly predictable at what it's going to do,because it's really it's only niche. Linoone is also extremely weak, and even after a belly drum still fails to OHKO many common threats with stab E speed.(doesn't even one shot archeops without rocks). Seed bomb and shadow claw are very nice for it, but between the extreme support it needs, it's frailness, and lack of power I feel Linoone needs a drop.

Camerupt from C+ to B
Camerupt should move up for a few reasons. First, Camerupt has incredibly good offensive stabs, and with good mixed attacking stats is an incredibly hard mon to switch into. With access to stealth rock and very solid bulk, Camreupt can even support it's team mates as well. With it's grass/fire/ground mixed attacking coverage there are really no save switch ins outside of like pelipper to this monster. The water weakness sucks, but with fire ground typing comes many useful resists as well that help Camreupt decimate un prepared teams

 

[Raseri]

Changes being made involving S-rank:

Slurpuff Falls from S to A+

Changes being made involving A-rank:

Mismagius from A to A+ Rank
Audino from A Rank to A- Rank
Hariyama from A- Rank to A+ Rank
Liepard from A- Rank to A Rank
Kangaskhan from A Rank to A+ Rank

Changes being made involving B-rank Pokemon:

Jynx from B+ Rank to A- Rank
Steelix from B- to B+ Rank
Vivillon from B+ Rank to A- Rank
Zangoose from B Rank to B+ Rank
Leafeon from B- Rank to B Rank
Weezing from B Rank to B+ Rank

Changes being made involving C-rank Pokemon:

Camerupt up from C to B- Rank
Stoutland from C Rank to C- Rank
Zebstrika from C+ to C- Rank
Altaria from C- Rank to C Rank
Purugly from C- Rank to D+ Rank
Dragonair from C- Rank to D+ Rank
Simisage from C- Rank to D+ Rank
Rampardos from C rank to C+ Rank

Changes being made involving D-rank Pokemon:

Serperior from D to C+ Rank
Hippopotas from D rank to C- Rank
Torkoal from D rank to D+ Rank
Sliggoo from D rank to D+ Rank
Lopunny from D rank to D+ rank
Politoed from D rank to D+ rank
Metang from D- rank to D+ rank
Delibird from D rank to C- rank

Changes being made involving unranked Pokemon:

Bibarel from unranked to D- rank

More Discussion:

Kabutops from A to A+ Rank
Typhlosion from A+ to S Rank
Ferroseed from A+ to A Rank
Swellow from B Rank to B+ Rank
Ninetales from B Rank to B+ Rank

lots of things moving around, lets keep the good posts coming!

 

[Teddeh]

Typhlosion to S rank:
I'm sorry, I'm not supporting this. Although Typhlosion needs to be prepared for in every team because although things "resist" its STAB specs eruptions, you need a hard counter to be able to face it properly, which is rather centralising, however the meta (or at least my thought process) has been this way since alpha. There are few hard counters with reliable recovery or ways of ohko'ing it back which is why I can see why you would put it forward to S, however there are many significant reasons why it shouldn't be.
1, Crippling stealth rock weakness; this harms its main niche which is eruption, it can only switch in 4 times on stealth rock as its weak and can also pressure it significantly.
2, It pretty much has to run a choiced item to be effective. This means every time I see a typhlosion, unless its specs I'm not worried in the slightest. This means predictions have to be made on hitting the right switch in or pokemon and can also mean potential setup bait for pokemon such as feraligatr, which if sets up properly can cause trouble to the best of teams.
3, Its base speed. Although base 100 is very high, it's not quite fast enough to be considered at unstoppable such as slurpuff when it gets a belly drum off or feraligatr with stab priority torrent aqua jets. There are a lot of common pokemon right in a speed tier above typhlosion along with an abundance of priority running around with fake outs from hariyama and kanga, or things like sceptile, archeops (which is incredibly common right now), liepard, pyroar etc etc.
4, Apart from eruption, what can pyroar not do? Pyroar offers a tonne more diversity with the ability to run choiced items such as specs and scarf aswell as flame plate bluffing choiced item and life orb effectively. It gets dual stab, better base speed, an immunity to ghost since mismagius is running around all too common and proceeds to outspeed. Apart from eruption, which is harmed by stealth rocks, Typhlosion is not that great in comparison.

So although is may be good and with the right team support can be destructive even, however it needs that team support in all honesty and has notable weaknesses. It's fine where it's at at A+.

Edit: Just noticed as soon as Soulgazers on the council, typh gets mentioned for S lol

 

[Deej Dy]

Ok, the time has come to introduce one of the most underrated pokemanz in the tier....Malamar. I may shoot myself in the foot for this much like I did from bringing attention to Ninetales, but regardless Malamar is beastly.

Malamar currently sits at a C rank.... I think a more appropriate rank would be B+

Here's why:
Malamar decimates stall, much like his partner in crime, Ninetales, although unlike Ninetales he can sweep:
Physically: (Super power spam with scarf/Rest talk set), decimating anything that isn't banded/specs to break it down after 1 boost. Also Annihilates any team with the lovable pink tumor, Audino
Specially: Infiltrator, Calm mind set, much like a neo-tomb, with rest/calm mind/sleep talk/ dark pulse. Or it can sport a calm mind set with any other of its huge Movepool of special attacks including Flamethrower, Psychic, and Thunderbolt. Unlike spiritomb however, Malamar sports base 73 speed, which isn't too shabby.

The thing about Malamar isn't its immediate power, it's its endurance. Sure you can bring in a Weezing/Seismatoad to wall most physical attackers, but status moves/rocky helmet don't hinder Malamar in sweeping, as it can just rest/sleep talk for further kills and boosts. Once Malamar gets a few boosts up, it is nearly impossible to take down without choiced items, or unlucky RestTalk rolls.

Here is the Malamar bulk vs Stally defensive walls, trying to stop it

0 SpA Seismitoad Scald vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Malamar: 66-78 (17.5 - 20.7%) -- possible 7HKO after Leftovers recovery
Burn doesnt even matter with rest talk
4 SpA Weezing Sludge Bomb vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Malamar: 75-88 (19.9 - 23.4%) -- possible 6HKO after Leftovers recovery
Literally Nothing
In order to take out malamar you need to kill it early before setting up which makes it so dangerous, much like our beloved slurpuff, and with very strong mons namely banded Sawk, Specs Typhlosion, etc.

Heres some calcs vs huge threats after one boost (From switching in for a revenge kill after one of your mons faints)

252 SpA Typhlosion Eruption (150 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Malamar: 187-222 (49.7 - 59%) -- 75% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Scarf Ty can barely 2HKO with full power eruption

+2 252+ Atk Feraligatr Waterfall vs. +1 252 HP / 0 Def Malamar: 184-217 (48.9 - 57.7%) -- 55.5% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 gatr can barely 2HKO assuming malamar doesn't continue Superpowering and allows it to SD.

The key with Malamar though, is bringing it in once huge threats are semi-weakened to avoid these possible 2HKOs

I could do calcs forever, but I'll sum it up in one statement:

Malamar is deserving of B+ rank because it can sweep large portions of the metagame, with different types of sets (namely superpower), however it requires at least one turn to set up to be potent, and has only 73 speed unlike other top tier threats, which is why it deserves B+ instead of an A rank.
Oh yeah....did I mention it hard walls Calm mind Uxie/Xatu?

Any Questions just ask, I'm riding the Malamar hype train atm.

 

[Punchshroom]

Typhlosion from A+ to S Rank

The only way I am supporting this is if Pyroar goes into S Rank along with it. Both are incredibly threatening Fire-type mons and some of the most influential attackers in the tier.

is used for its massive offensive presence (be it full powered Eruption or Blaze Fire Blasts) and access to Psychic coverage, but

is much less prediction-heavy by virtue of its Normal STAB and has a superior speed tier, as well as offering utilty such as Will-O-Wisp (Typhlosion cannot really afford this without giving up Choice items and risk being outclassed by Pyroar), Hyper Voice piercing Subs, and offensively checking Mismagius and Slurpuff, the latter of which few Pokemon in the tier can claim do. Both are on equal grounds as far as I am concerned.

Ninetales from B Rank to B+ Rank

Like Typhlosion, access to Psychic coverage is absolutely huge for Fire-types right now.

stands out as one of the most threatening attackers to slower teams (aka balance and stall) due to its access to Nasty Plot and versatile coverage, which allows Ninetales to punish switches and steamroll teams easier than Typhlosion, provided it gets the chance to set up. Ninetales has good enough special bulk to withstand weaker hits from the likes of unboosted Mesprit and Rotom, good enough speed to outrun a good percentage of the tier, and Flash Fire is immensely useful in checking the aforementioned Fire-types which are surging in popularity (and controversy :P). An easy B+, or even a possible A- if someone makes a strong enough case; looking at the current A- Ranked Pokes I'd say Ninetales has a legit shot of joining them.

 

[ryan]

you only predict with Typhlosion against like two Pokemon that are frequently used. Otherwise, you click Eruption. Where is the prediction?

 

[Punchshroom]

you only predict with Typhlosion against like two Pokemon that are frequently used. Otherwise, you click Eruption. Where is the prediction?

I admit I overestimate how prediction-reliant Typh is, but don't pretend Typh can afford to spam Eruption against all but a mere two Pokemon in the tier, when things like Rhydon, Kabutops, Carracosta, and Ninetales (a big factor, as it walls / hard checks Typhlosion but not Pyroar) are prominent (with mild mentions to Regirock and Flareon). These Pokes either force Typh out with priority, or threaten hazards / set up. The hazards also limits, if not outright prevents Typh from just jumping in and out while breaking stuff with full-powered Eruption (especially in the case of Rhydon), particularly SR which puts Typh in the somewhat awkward period where Eruption is cut substantially in power and Fire Blast is not quite in 'kill everything' zone yet. This tends to be the period where Pyroar outshines Typh as an attacker (which somewhat explains my siding with Pyroar), as Pyroar can approach Typhlosion's damage output while maintaining the freedom to switch moves and has Normal STAB to fall back on, which gives Pyroar another KOing move aside from Fire STAB, making it harder for opponents to pivot switch against it.

What I'm saying is that Typhlosion is indeed very good at breaking stuff, but I find Pyroar to be superior at attacking unless Typh is at full health / Blaze range, Extrasensory aside (imo Wisp does a decent job at softening Extrasensory targets, and if you want to argue Heal Bell I could very well argue Pursuit :/). I still maintain both should be the same rank for many of the reasons I've stated in my previous post, though I am still a little divided whether both should be S Rank. Support for Typh in S seems strong so far though.

 

[N1ntenOwned]

Raticate for D Rank
Raticate @Flame/Toxic Orb
252 Atk 4 Def 252 Spd, Jolly
Facade
Flame Wheel
Sucker Punch
Swords Dance
I have been using Raticate quite awhile now, and have been seeing with the right support (Reflect/Light Screen especially) this little rat can be quite the pest. With Raticate's decent Attack and odd base 97 Speed, Raticate can clean up teams quite effeciantly with Facade and Sucker Punch. With Reflect/Light Screen support, Raticate can come in on a wall and set up a Swords Dance with ease, making it's attack go sky high and is able to clean up well. This little guy may not be as strong as a Zangoose, or as fast as a Swellow, but he is still a force to wreckon with.

 

[CanadianWifier]

I could support Raticate for a nice low rank like D or D+

It's basically just a middle ground between Goose and Swellow. It gets 2 formes of priority, Crunch to hit ghosts, Flame Wheel to scorch Ferroseed, and SD to hit like a truck. Can also do some gimmicky shit like Banded hustle with U-turn.
w.e, imo it's usable enough for a rank.

 

[kay]

I agree, it's got enough power and a good enough move pool for a rank. Tho I don't see it making it out of rank D

 

[Punchshroom]

I could support Raticate for a nice low rank like D or D+

It's basically just a middle ground between Goose and Swellow. It gets 2 formes of priority, Crunch to hit ghosts, Flame Wheel to scorch Ferroseed, and SD to hit like a truck. Can also do some gimmicky shit like Banded hustle with U-turn.
w.e, imo it's usable enough for a rank.

I would consider Quick Feet Ursaring to be the middle ground between Goose and Swellow, not Raticate >.> Quick Feet Ursa also outspeeds up to Pyroar, so Raticate's priority is usually a moot point. Raticate is mostly outclassed by Swellow since the former hardly breaks any Rocks and Steels bar Ferroseed (doesn't resist Swellow's Brave Bird anyhow) and the latter also has U-turn + priority, while boasting greater power and far superior speed.

 

[Pooch13]

Ferro to A :

I'm gonna drop a couple of things I've been feeling about the metagame.

View attachment 27726Ferroseed from A+ --> A

Ferroseed is still a really solid defensive pokemon in the meta, however I feel like the meta has adapted to it quite nicely. A variety of lures such as HP fire Mesprit and Vileplume, Superpower Feraligatr/Kabutops and Natural Gift Leafeon can all beat it as well as the rising popularity of Defensive CM Xatu which annihilates it. Many of the things that it used to wall hard now have found ways to get around it. Ferroseed is no longer the meta-defining defensive threat that it once was, however it still deserves at least A Rank imo.

View attachment 27727 Victreebel from C+ --> B-/B

I know that Victreebel just got raised, however I feel like it could use a little more of a buff in the rankings. Many people think that Victreebel's only niche is as a sun sweeper (and a fearsome one at that), however Victreebel is a very cool mon to use on offensive teams. Grass/Poison is a very good offensive typing right now and Victreebel is a very nice option to both check Feraligatr as well as absorb T-Spikes which is amazing on offensive teams. It also provides great offensive utility with Sucker Punch, and can even run a more gimmicky SD set. Overall, Victreebel has niches as both a sun sweeper as well as an offensive utility mon that deserves it to go up a rank or two.

I think this post sums it up, most teams are prepared for ferro just because of how many things it walls checks or stops on the tier.

Ninetales to B+ : Just for the mere fact that it can switch in safely to Typh stabs spams (and hp grass lol) makes it a no brainer. Maybe its 2hkoed by xtrasensory but then you can switch to a dark type and force the switch etc.. + grass fire psychic coverage in this tier is insanely good (Ninetales is basically a Typh that needs one turn setup but isnt insanely crippled by hazards or doesnt depend on blaze to activate when its not at full hp)

Malamar to B+ :yes the rest talk set has fecked me more than once even when i had the upper hand and the scarf set is unexpected and can dent the other team and easily sweep late game (SP spam is a better moxie, just get rid of ghost types first) and it has access to switcheroo to cripple annoying pokes like ferro or uxie and Destiny bond as an emergemcy button. Never tried the CM set tbh but seems decent too specially because Malamar is 90 % of the times physical

Also lets try to move on from the Typh/Ferro/ Ninetales matter and decide the rank since about half of the last 3 pages are Ty relsted posts.

 

[Deej Dy]

After talks of the rises of Ninetales/Malamar I think it's important to update the higher ranked mons to the current meta game. I'd like to start of by talking for a drop to Poliwrath from B+.

Ok, we all know Poliwrath is very bulky and walls Gatr well....
+2 252+ Atk Feraligatr Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Poliwrath: 157-185 (40.8 - 48.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

But what exactly is it "great" at besides absorbing water and tanking a few hits? Here are my criticisms

• Toad can also wall Gatr effectively with water absorb, has rocks and a better movepool.
• Mesprit/Slurpuff/Misdreavus/Archeops/CM Uxie/Lilligant/Sceptile run train on wrath or use it as setup fodder.
• It doesn't really wall Typhlosion/Pyroar all that well
  • 252 SpA Choice Specs Typhlosion Extrasensory vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Poliwrath: 252-298 (65.6 - 77.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
  • 252 SpA Life Orb Pyroar Hyper Voice vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Poliwrath: 185-218 (48.1 - 56.7%) -- 86.7% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

• Its rest talk set is unreliable with possible bad rolls and base 70 scald with low priority circle throw is a bit underwelming.
  
• Bulk up wrath is great!...in PU, where ghosts aren't as common and the metagame cant 1 hit ko it with Mesprit/Slurpuff/Archeops.
  
  
  Overall Poliwrath isn't a bad mon (I use it in PU), but with stall dying, better options available, lack of consistency with sleeptalk, and a huge amount of counters I feel B+ isn't suitable. I believe with these problems highlighted it should drop to B-.​

 

[ryan]

That's why SubPunch is so much better in this metagame. :)

But even so, B- is still fair for it.

 

[kay]

It really isn't the power house it used to be. I agree for rank B-

 

[Liarliarpantsonfire]

After talks of the rises of Ninetales/Malamar I think it's important to update the higher ranked mons to the current meta game. I'd like to start of by talking for a drop to Poliwrath from B+.

Ok, we all know Poliwrath is very bulky and walls Gatr well....
+2 252+ Atk Feraligatr Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Poliwrath: 157-185 (40.8 - 48.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

But what exactly is it "great" at besides absorbing water and tanking a few hits? Here are my criticisms

• Toad can also wall Gatr effectively with water absorb, has rocks and a better movepool.
• Mesprit/Slurpuff/Misdreavus/Archeops/CM Uxie/Lilligant/Sceptile run train on wrath or use it as setup fodder.
• It doesn't really wall Typhlosion/Pyroar all that well
  • 252 SpA Choice Specs Typhlosion Extrasensory vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Poliwrath: 252-298 (65.6 - 77.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
  • 252 SpA Life Orb Pyroar Hyper Voice vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Poliwrath: 185-218 (48.1 - 56.7%) -- 86.7% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

• Its rest talk set is unreliable with possible bad rolls and base 70 scald with low priority circle throw is a bit underwelming.
  
• Bulk up wrath is great!...in PU, where ghosts aren't as common and the metagame cant 1 hit ko it with Mesprit/Slurpuff/Archeops.
  
  
  Overall Poliwrath isn't a bad mon (I use it in PU), but with stall dying, better options available, lack of consistency with sleeptalk, and a huge amount of counters I feel B+ isn't suitable. I believe with these problems highlighted it should drop to B-.​

?_?

I'm not convinced by this post. A few points I'd like to make:

• Poliwrath is a great physical wall with a unique typing and ability; it does more than "tank a few hits".
• I haven't seen a Seismitoad beat a Feraligatr 1 vs 1 unless Gatr was weakened beforehand. At +2 all Gatr needs is a bit of prior damage to 2HKO with Return while the best Toad can do is Earth Power (a 3HKO). Poliwrath on the other hand can phaze Gatr out with Circle Throw. Also, Toad doesn't get recovery while Poliwrath does.
• I agree with the running train part, with the setup fodder part: no. Scald cripples all of those threats and unless you're SubCM Uxie/Mesprit you'll get phazed out if you try to set up.
• Since when did Poliwrath become a special wall? Typhlosion and Pyroar are specially based wallbreakers, just because Poliwrath is a Water-type doesn't mean it has to switch into them as it's a fully physical wall.
• Scald is still 80 base power until further notice and has STAB. RestTalk will never be 100% reliable, however Poliwrath has the perfect moves for such a set. You can't go wrong with Scald and phazing can benefit you as well.
• Do people even use Bulk Up on Poliwrath? ?_? I'd think SubPunch is innovating enough, but let's stick with its most reliable set being the RestTalk one. Which hard counters Kabutops and Klinklang which is no small feat. Seismitoad does the same, but it's much easier to wear down with Toxic and its lack of recovery which are problems Poliwrath doesn't have to deal with.
• Stall is dying? When did that happen? Which better options are you talking about? And what huge amount of counters? I feel like you're being a little too brief here, just because you say stall is dying, it has a huge amount of counters, ... doesn't mean it's actually true. Can you back up your claims?

Not saying that Poliwrath isn't without its flaws, but I feel the arguments made could have been better.

 

[Shuckleking87]

?_?

Seismitoad does get recovery in the form of rest if you really wanted to, poliwrath has no form of reliable recovery otherwise. Seismitoad can also counter kabutops and klinklang no problems. Poliwrath can deal with feraligatr, but seismitoad can run knock off for uxie unless they run a ton of defense.
But saying poliwrath has recovery while seismitoad does not is flawed because they both have the same recovery move

 

[kay]

As someone who has played nothing but stall this gen, I can confirm that stall is in fact dying. As for proof, well let me just go through a general out line.

• Mesprit kills stall
• Sub CM Uxie kills stall
• Xatu kills stall
• NP Ninetales kills most stall
• Double dance Rhydon kills stall
• People have adapted to Ferroseed/ Crustle
• People have adapted to Audino

Also, every high ladder player will make sure their team packs an answer to stall.


Now, how does Poliwrath fit into this? It supports a dying play style. And that's why it should be dropped to rank B-.

 

[Ares]

I'm not sure I would say stall is dying, it just requires really really good team building as it requires the builder to account for so much. This requires the builder to do extensive testing and to have an extensive knowledge of the meta, this can be really off putting for the casual battler.

That being said I support a drop of Poliwrath to B-

 

[ryan]

Seismitoad does get recovery in the form of rest if you really wanted to, poliwrath has no form of reliable recovery otherwise. Seismitoad can also counter kabutops and klinklang no problems. Poliwrath can deal with feraligatr, but seismitoad can run knock off for uxie unless they run a ton of defense.
But saying poliwrath has recovery while seismitoad does not is flawed because they both have the same recovery move

Uxie doesn't need lots of Defense:
0 Atk Seismitoad Knock Off vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Uxie: 72-86 (20.3 - 24.2%) -- guaranteed 5HKO

Knock Off doesn't get boosted when you're behind a Substitute, and Giga Drain is the most common coverage on it these days anyways.

Seismitoad is physically able to run Rest, yes, but it never does and never will because it's not viable on it. It works on Poliwrath because it can phaze shit. RestTalk Seismitoad would just throw out Scalds and Earthquakes. If you really want to run something with Rest / Sleep Talk / Set Up / On Me, go for it.

I don't think anyone (except maybe Liarliarpantsonfire) disagrees with Poliwrath moving down. The arguments for it are just kind of shitty barring competition from Seismitoad.

 

[Pooch13]

?_?

I'm not convinced by this post. A few points I'd like to make:

• Poliwrath is a great physical wall with a unique typing and ability; it does more than "tank a few hits".
• I haven't seen a Seismitoad beat a Feraligatr 1 vs 1 unless Gatr was weakened beforehand. At +2 all Gatr needs is a bit of prior damage to 2HKO with Return while the best Toad can do is Earth Power (a 3HKO). Poliwrath on the other hand can phaze Gatr out with Circle Throw. Also, Toad doesn't get recovery while Poliwrath does.
• I agree with the running train part, with the setup fodder part: no. Scald cripples all of those threats and unless you're SubCM Uxie/Mesprit you'll get phazed out if you try to set up.
• Since when did Poliwrath become a special wall? Typhlosion and Pyroar are specially based wallbreakers, just because Poliwrath is a Water-type doesn't mean it has to switch into them as it's a fully physical wall.
• Scald is still 80 base power until further notice and has STAB. RestTalk will never be 100% reliable, however Poliwrath has the perfect moves for such a set. You can't go wrong with Scald and phazing can benefit you as well.
• Do people even use Bulk Up on Poliwrath? ?_? I'd think SubPunch is innovating enough, but let's stick with its most reliable set being the RestTalk one. Which hard counters Kabutops and Klinklang which is no small feat. Seismitoad does the same, but it's much easier to wear down with Toxic and its lack of recovery which are problems Poliwrath doesn't have to deal with.
• Stall is dying? When did that happen? Which better options are you talking about? And what huge amount of counters? I feel like you're being a little too brief here, just because you say stall is dying, it has a huge amount of counters, ... doesn't mean it's actually true. Can you back up your claims?

Not saying that Poliwrath isn't without its flaws, but I feel the arguments made could have been better.

I think you may be forgetting the fact that Toad has 1 huge weakness and wrath has about 5 or 6 and they both have basically the same resistances. Polk to B- seems pretty fair tbh as the weaknesses it has limit him a lot as a wall as psychic, electric, grass, flying and Slurpuff +gran bull are in thé tier. It mostly has the niche now to being able to phaze mons out and maybe taking knock offs as a boss. And you know neither of Toad and wrath have reliable recovery as mentioned before so that argument is pretty shaky.

 

[kay]

So I've brought this up with a few people in the NU room, and I found this to be a really interesting debate.

The question is simple. Should Feraligatr stay S rank?

Now we all know what it does so I'm going to skip over that and explain my thoughts behind why I think it should move down to A+.

• The meta has adapted extremely well
• Soft checks to Gatr are on almost every team.
• It can only run 1-2 sets.
• And it can't break any of it's counters.

Now these are just some of my thoughts, and I'm really curious what you guys think on this. Has the meta adapted more then Gatr is ready for?

 

[Teddeh]

So I've brought this up with a few people in the NU room, and I found this to be a really interesting debate.

The question is simple. Should Feraligatr stay S rank?

Now we all know what it does so I'm going to skip over that and explain my thoughts behind why I think it should move down to A+.

• The meta has adapted extremely well
• Soft checks to Gatr are on almost every team.
• It can only run 1-2 sets.
• And it can't break any of it's counters.

Now these are just some of my thoughts, and I'm really curious what you guys think on this. Has the meta adapted more then Gatr is ready for?

Well for starters, if a team isn't prepared for gatr, it just gets destroyed, i've played games where gatr has come back 1-6 and won me the game. It's strong, bulky and diverse in coverage move. Since the meta has adapted, gatr would have too. It now has options for natural gift, superpower, dragon dance. Either way, it's still a force to be messed with and can 6-0 the best of teams if they don't have a counter. It can set up on a tonne of pokemon and in the meta, even now, it's still a top top mon. I think it should easily stay S. The fact every time i build a team, i try to build with 2 checks and a counter to this mon says it alone, it's nothing but destruction and needs little support to sweep teams effortlessly. By definition, it's S rank and for a good reason :]

 

[soulgazer]

The meta has adapted extremely well

Mind explaining to us how the metagame adapted extremely well to Feraligatr?

Soft checks to Gatr are on almost every team.

Well ofcourse. Who is crazy enough to not prepare for arguably one of the best set up sweeper in NU?

It can only run 1-2 sets.

So now just being able to use Swords Dance and Dragon Dance well doesn't make it worthy of S? Mind explaining?

And it can't break any of it's counters.

What are Gatr's counters? Gourgeist-Small, Gourgeist-XL, and Poliwrath? maybe Tangela too (and sometimes Feraligatr can win if you play well around it). It isn't that hard to deal with Poliwrath tbh, and for Gourgeist-Small and -Xl well.. I give you that, but being S-rank doesn't mean it can't have counters either.

What iTeddeh said is true. Sure Gatr has a cookie cutter set (Swords Dance), but it can easily run other things to do what you want it to. Dragon Dance is fun and let it outspeed all those offensive Grass-types that you all call 'Soft Checks'. It can use SubSD(or DD) to set up on Ferroseed (use if your team handles the Water-type immune Pokemon well). It can use Natural Gift, Superpower, Crunch.. even run special moves like Ice Beam if you feel like it.

Lets not forget that the 'cookie cutter set' can win games easily even if your opponent prepared for it. Most of Gatr's 'soft checks' don't enjoy taking its coverage moves (Lilligant and Sceptile don't like switching on a Ice Punch, Jynx doesn'y enjoy taking a Return, etc) and if they are worn down, most of them will die to a +2 Aqua Jet in the endgame. Stuff like 0 Spa Lanturn or Vileplume fails to OHKO Gatr and Gatr can just set up twice (once as they switch on it, again as it takes a hit) and just finish them off lol. Now yeah Gatr won't always 6-0 everybody, nothing can rly do that, but Gatr will always do what you need it to.