Lower Tiers BW NU Viability Rankings

[ryan]

On the Onix talk, I don't see a need to highlight its placement in E-rank because I honestly think a case could be made for it to be placed in D-rank. It's faster than many Stealth Rock setters and also has Taunt to keep hazards off your side of the field. Many Pokemon can do one or the other, but the only ones I can think of that do both are Onix, Probopass, Krokorok, and Monferno, and the only one of those that isn't subpar doesn't utilize Taunt well due to its low Speed and 4x Ground weakness. I'm not pushing for it to be moved to D-rank because I frankly don't particularly care, but it does well enough that you don't need to exaggerate its placement.

Argh I had to go way back to find the Audino talk.

Nominating Audino for Top-B. The more I play with Audino, the less reason I see to use Lickilicky over it. Lickilicky outdoes Audino in terms of sheer bulk, but Audino far makes up for that with Regenerator, which also lets it pass Wishes while also being able to heal itself. While Lickilicky almost always has to stay in and Protect for the sake of not getting worn down itself, Audino doesn't have this same fear, making it a much better Wish passer than Licky. I actually kind of question what Licky has over Audino as a defensive mon. Better offensive presence? Not really, because Audino can afford to run a stronger move in Double-Edge thanks to Regenerator, which actually does more than Licky's Body Slam. I guess he has Dragon Tail, but it's super weak and lets Sub-setup sweepers walk all over you.

Lickilicky does have advantages defensively over Audino. Punchshroom brought up Lickilicky's SubSD set, but because it's incredibly irrelevant to the question you posed, I'm ignoring it.

Lickilicky's bulk is actually a lot better than Audino's, even though it might not seem like it by glancing at their stats alone. Audino has 103/86/86 defensive stats, compared to Lickilicky's 110/95/95. This lets Lickilicky survive some crazy stuff on both sides of the defensive spectrum.

252+ Atk Toxic Boost (Poisoned) Zangoose Facade vs 252 HP/0 Def Lickilicky: 84.91% - 100% (6.25% chance to OHKO)
252+ Atk Toxic Boost (Poisoned) Zangoose Facade vs 252 HP/0 Def Audino: 95.12% - 112.2% (68.75% chance to OHKO)

252+ SpA Life Orb Samurott Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Lickilicky: 185-218 (43.63 - 51.41%) -- 70.7% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Life Orb Samurott Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Audino: 196-231 (47.8 - 56.34%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

0 Atk Life Orb Samurott Superpower vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Lickilicky: 234-276 (55.18 - 65.09%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
-1 0 Atk Life Orb Samurott Superpower vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Lickilicky: 156-185 (36.79 - 43.63%) -- 99.71% chance to 3HKO
0 Atk Life Orb Samurott Superpower vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Audino: 252-299 (61.46 - 72.92%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
-1 0 Atk Life Orb Samurott Superpower vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Audino: 169-200 (41.21 - 48.78%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

Obviously these are just some specific examples, but it shows that Lickilicky's greater bulk can take it a long way in certain situations. For example, any team with either Lickilicky or Audino should be carrying a better check to Zangoose than either of them, but worst case scenario, Lickilicky has a really good chance to survive a Facade from Zangoose on a switch and then Protect to stall Toxic damage, while Audino can do this less than half of the time without hazards and none of the time with them. In the calcs against Samurott, we see that Lickilicky will practically never be 2HKO'd by Samurott's Hydro Pump after two rounds of Leftovers recovery (one from the switch in and the other after taking a turn to Protect), whereas Audino isn't always so lucky. And against the rare, yet very potent Samurott that carries Superpower in lieu of Megahorn, Audino has no chance to make it out alive, while Lickilicky can and often will.

I know that these particular situations aren't the most common, and hax often plays a role in them, rendering these damage calcs fairly useless in actual gameplay, but for the sake of example, the difference in damage between Audino and Lickilicky is decent enough to justify Lickilicky's spot on a team and in the viability rankings.

HOWEVER!

We kind of have to ask now if the value of a dedicated special wall (which is pretty much Lickilicky's role on a team, as we've already determined that Audino is a better Wish passer) is more valuable than a bulky pivot. While the damage calcs above might be in Lickilicky's favor, it doesn't show us which one is ultimately more effective in the metagame. I'd argue that having a bulky pivot and Wish passer is far better for most teams than what having a dedicated wall is. To me, one of the most important things for nearly any NU team right now, regardless of the playstyle, is keeping up momentum. With the relevance of hazards in the metagame, it's crucial to be able to play around them, which Audino can do with Regenerator. Similarly, it's really nice to be able to cushion any switches with Wish support. The buffer that a passed Wish provides against oncoming attacks and hazards compensates for being forced to switch out, and it helps regain either offensive or defensive momentum, depending on what your team needs.

Ultimately, I have to say that Audino is suited well for Mid B-rank. However, Lickilicky is placed far too high right now. It might seem like I'm being harsh, but I feel Lickilicky should be dropped to Top C-rank. Looking at the definitions of the rankings, C-rank's description fits Lickilicky really well.

C rank Pokemon tend to face a lot of competition with the more commonly used Pokemon.

No doubt that Lickilicky faces a lot of competition from Audino.

Reserved for Pokemon that have notable niches in the NU metagame, but have just as notable flaws that prevent them from being effective.

Lickilicky's niche as a specially defensive Wish passer is eclipsed by Audino. Its niche as a Heal Bell user isn't really even a niche, as there are plenty of other Pokemon that can use the move effectively. It also has notable flaws in vulnerability to hazards, being worn down throughout the match, and relying on Wish and Protect for recovery, making it easier to set up on. Its niche as a special wall is where it shines best, but the value of that niche is not nearly enough to save it from dropping for the reasons I stated above.

Pokemon in the C tier often require significant support to be effective in NU.

If you really wish to use Lickilicky to its fullest, it needs support in order to, well, support the rest of the team. I find Rapid Spin support to be pretty important for Lickilicky, and it really does work well with it. Wartortle can spin for Lickilicky and the rest of the team, and in turn, Lickilicky can effectively pass Wishes back to Wartortle to help keep it going throughout the game. Using another Wish passer alongside it is really nice as well (though certainly less necessary), as it keeps it from being 2HKO'd by powerful attacks and gives it the chance to attack its foes before it starts taking forever to heal up.

I know it's weird to consider Lickilicky for C-rank, but I really think it's the best fit for it. Offensively, Lickilicky is outclassed by quite a few Pokemon, so I won't even bother trying to save it with its other set(s). In the end, Lickilicky's niche isn't very important anymore in NU, and we've found a different Pokemon that does the job many people were trying to use it for much more efficiently.

 

[Punchshroom]

While I can easily agree with Audino in Mid-B, I'm not so certain about Lickilicky dropping to C. While it doesn't have Regenerator like Audino to aid its Wish passing, its raw bulk can make a difference in surviving certain attacks or not (Samurott and Eelektross being good examples, as these threats often EV their Superpowers with Licky in mind). While Audino is perfectly (and exclusively) tailored to support its teammates, I find Lickilicky more capable of holding its own.

While Audino has Magic Coat and Encore to deter setup, Lickilicky has Body Slam and Dragon Tail. Licky's Body Slam hits about as hard as Audino's Double-Edge while doubling as a support move as opposed to just hurting itself. Dragon Tail takes advantage of the fact that Lickilicky's better bulk and WishTecting make it infuriatingly difficult and annoying for most opponents to handle, so the opponent will often switch to whatever they have that can deal with Licky (there aren't that many Pokemon that will give Licky huge trouble, especially if a Choice item is involved in the face of Protect); Dragon Tail can force these threats right back out and often into something that can't do jack to Lickilicky, which can allow for a free Wish or even more phazing. This means Licky can hold its own better than Audino against an opponent that can 2HKO it if the rest of the opponent's team cannot do much to Licky. Dragon Tail becomes especially potent if hazards are involved: even Gurdurr won't simply shrug off Dragon Tail if it is caught on the switch with Spikes on field, among other things.

I won't deny that Audino is more effective, but I feel Lickilciky is still not quite outclassed enough to warrant a drop to C, as it is still known as one of the bulky Normals, if not walls in general, that numerous special attackers strive to overcome and would be recognized for if they can beat Lickilicky with little trouble. Maybe Low-B is good for Licky.

 

[scorpdestroyer]

Here's the problem with Wynaut: it's completely and totally a one-trick pony. It's weak to U-turn (and a lesser extent Volt Switch) offense, and only really works to trap very specific Pokemon (Scarf Primeape locked into Close Combat / Scarf Jynx locked into Psychic, etc). This isn't even mentioning the fact that in order for it to work against Pokemon with multiple sets, you need to either a) Encore the opp into a non-damaging or weak attack or b) predict what attacking move it's going to use (Samurott can run special or physical, Eelektross, etc). You can make Wynaut work in NU, but it's in D-rank because you can make a lot of mons work in NU if you try hard enough.

Wynaut does not just work against a certain group of Pokemon. In fact, it is able to beat most Pokemon (even mixed Pokemon if you choose to run destiny bond). You might say that Destiny Bond is risky if the opponent has an attack that can't KO you, but Destiny Bond + Encore is going to screw up anything clever enough to try avoiding the double down. Your conception is probably that Wynaut switches in on Primeape, Jynx, etc. but that is not always the case. As long as Wynaut can avoid the OHKO from something, nothing is stopping it from switching in and getting a guaranteed revenge kill after a teammate has fainted, with Counter, Mirror Coat or even Destiny Bond if you don't like predicting against mixed Pokemon. It doesn't even need to revenge kill if it can avoid the 2HKO! Thus, it can actually trap a wide range of offensive Pokemon. Probably the only offensive threats that it can't beat are: things that OHKO it (not very plentiful), Pokemon with U-turn / Volt Switch and offensive Pokemon with Taunt. Your point that it loses to VoltTurn is kinda irrelevant because which trapper performs effectively against VoltTurn at all? VoltTurn offense is just one team style it can't do well against, it's a weakness I must admit, but every Pokemon has its weaknesses and C-rank isn't too far-fetched. And it's not like Wynaut has to perform perfectly against every single threat under the sun because it's use is to remove a roadblock for a teammate's sweep, and as long as it traps that one problematic Pokemon, its job is done, so not being able to trap things like Samurott isn't a huge deal (unless your team has problems with it, but at that point you should probably be running Destiny Bond). And it's not like it can't trap defensive threats at all, since pretty much the only ones that beat it that come to mind are Misdreavus and Mandibuzz because Encore + Tickle just balls everything else and gives a teammate a setup opportunity. And even though Wynaut is a one-trick pony, it's not like you can do anything about it except play very very carefully with your Pokemon and keep double switching out of Wynaut (and you still can't prevent a revenge kill). I mean sure you cant run Tickle and Destiny Bond on the same set so you would miss out on some threats for sure but I guess that would depend on which roadblock you're trying to remove for a teammate. I may be a bit biased but I think these are legitimate positive traits. Wynaut for low c-rank at least.

 

[Blast]

While I can easily agree with Audino in Mid-B, I'm not so certain about Lickilicky dropping to C. While it doesn't have Regenerator like Audino to aid its Wish passing, its raw bulk can make a difference in surviving certain attacks or not (Samurott and Eelektross being good examples, as these threats often EV their Superpowers with Licky in mind). While Audino is perfectly (and exclusively) tailored to support its teammates, I find Lickilicky more capable of holding its own.

While Audino has Magic Coat and Encore to deter setup, Lickilicky has Body Slam and Dragon Tail. Licky's Body Slam hits about as hard as Audino's Double-Edge while doubling as a support move as opposed to just hurting itself. Dragon Tail takes advantage of the fact that Lickilicky's better bulk and WishTecting make it infuriatingly difficult and annoying for most opponents to handle, so the opponent will often switch to whatever they have that can deal with Licky (there aren't that many Pokemon that will give Licky huge trouble, especially if a Choice item is involved in the face of Protect); Dragon Tail can force these threats right back out and often into something that can't do jack to Lickilicky, which can allow for a free Wish or even more phazing. This means Licky can hold its own better than Audino against an opponent that can 2HKO it if the rest of the opponent's team cannot do much to Licky. Dragon Tail becomes especially potent if hazards are involved: even Gurdurr won't simply shrug off Dragon Tail if it is caught on the switch with Spikes on field, among other things.

I won't deny that Audino is more effective, but I feel Lickilciky is still not quite outclassed enough to warrant a drop to C, as it is still known as one of the bulky Normals, if not walls in general, that numerous special attackers strive to overcome and would be recognized for if they can beat Lickilicky with little trouble. Maybe Low-B is good for Licky.

I really wouldn't consider Licky's Body Slam a "support move" in general. As Treecko said before, Licky really needs Rapid Spin support from, say, Wartortle to be at its most effective, meaning it only really works well in stall. So the 30% paralysis chance either ends up being a) useless or b) actually detrimental to the Lickilicky user, preventing them from inflicting a more useful status on them. Plus, most good stall teams run Toxic Spikes, which just further hinders Licky's Body Slam's usefulness. While Dragon Tail is undoubtedly useful, that really is all Licky has going for it as a special wall, which imo makes Top-C a good place for it.

 

[atomicllamas]

Okay, as Treecko has said, Onix could probably be nominated for D rank so I am going to propose Onix for Low D (or mid D, I don't really care tbh), the one thing that Onix has going for it over other rock setters is taunt with base 70 Speed (trolling my Fraxure ;-; ), making a usable suicide lead, as it outspeeds other leads, and taunts them before they set up hazards. Even if they go straight for the kill they will still activate custap (with pretty much any special attack knocking it into range). The only thing in the tier that can prevent it from getting rocks up is Sawk, vs. every other common lead it can get up rocks and prevent them, (except for an offensive Seismitoad with SR, and it must be timid and running at least 216 speed EVs to avoid taunt, but it gets up rocks either way). I would never run Onix, as it has shitty stats barring usable speed and great defense, but it is definitely viable in today's metagame, more so than Lopunny at the very least.

 

[Lolk]

I have been playing around with Tentacool recently on my stall team and have been pretty pleased. It has so much utility that my stall team needs it's not even funny. It functions as a rapid spinner, toxic spikes setter, and toxic spikes absorber all in one nifty little bundle. It's speed isn't half bad either. It also makes a great check to Charizard, Ludicolo, and Special Samurott, all who give my team trouble. I wouldn't nominate any higher than High-D because its defense sucks and it's very specific on what it can set up on. In most matches I do have to choose between spinning or getting enough layers of toxic spikes up, but as the opponent gets more stally, Tentacool shines brighter. Idk if I am overhyping it, but tentacool fits in my team perfectly and imo deserves a spot on the rankings.

 

[Raseri]

Going to make a few more changes:

Audino up to High B from Mid B
Lickilicky down to Low B from Mid B
Wynaut up to High D from Low D

I would add Tentacool and stuff, but I'm to lazy to find the sprites :)

I also have a few (potentially controversial) nominations I'd like to make.

Kangaskhan down to Low S from Mid S.

I believe this was discussed before and the move didn't happen, but right now a lot of things can take her on, and offensive teams aren't as common as before.

Carracosta down to High A from Low S.

yayaya pls don't make fun of me for it. Costa is still amazing, but the difficultty with sweeping is a legitimate issue, and it fits a lot more with the Top A pokemon than with the S rank pokemon.

Alomomola up to High A from Mid A.

It walls everything, super amazing pivot. High A is just how amazing it is right now.

thoughts? Also don't make stupid posts, I could see the these nominations lead to a string of them. If you're maing a stupid post, don't.

 

[scorpdestroyer]

I agree with Costa for High A, it requires more support to remove Scarf Rotom-A and Jynx which are quite common, Seismitoad, and Alomomola. It also can't really set up without fear of getting worn down, so it can really only do so against things that can't hurt it at all. But once it smashes and its checks are gone, it's really scary, so High A is fine for it

It's also better than Gorebyss

Check pages 1-2 for more details

 

[Aasgier]

Alomomola up to High A from Mid A.

Alomomola doesn't wall Charizard from my experience, even not Charizard Choice-Locked into Fire Blast (a resisted move). Alomomola being so vulnerable on the special side - even resisted moves dent it - don't make me think it is suitable for High-A. Also, it is highly vulnerable to Sun teams (for example, Choice Specs Solar Power Fire Blast in the sun deals 70%, Grass-attackers OHKO flat out with Solarbeam (and Fire attackers too), physical Grass-types set up on it and OHKO with Leaf Blade/Horn Leech), Gardevoir, Jynx, Misdreavus, etc.
Yes, it walls Sawk as well as most Rock-types, but most teams are prepared for it one way or another. Toxic (Spikes) are also very harmful to Alomomola. Alomomola is quite easy to take advantage off, which is why I always refrained to use it, even though it stop most forms of Choice attackers as well as things like Swellow, there are just too many things it doesn't stop and that proceed to set up on it.

Agreed with the rest though.

 

[Punchshroom]

I also have a few (potentially controversial) nominations I'd like to make.

Kangaskhan down to Low S from Mid S.
I believe this was discussed before and the move didn't happen, but right now a lot of things can take her on, and offensive teams aren't as common as before.

I'm pretty hesitant on this nomination: she threatens a great deal of offensive Pokemon, has good enough bulk, power and speed to be a threat to almost any team, and Scrappy makes it easier to spam her STAB which is good against defensive teams. She still has a bad matchup against bulky Pokemon like Alomo, Mandibuzz and Musharna though, but she still does well enough at her job.

Carracosta down to High A from Low S.
yayaya pls don't make fun of me for it. Costa is still amazing, but the difficulty with sweeping is a legitimate issue, and it fits a lot more with the Top A pokemon than with the S rank pokemon.

Wait wait wait, so after all that halaballoo I coughed up about Carra being S-Rank 4 months ago (that actually managed to earn me a reputation) resulted in me finally being satisfied in Carra being Low-S....then this happens?

Hide

I dunno how to respond to this properly, but I'll try anyway. Finally the issue of Costa's sweeping ability has been brought into the limelight, as Costa risks taking too much damage from even resisted foes to sweep with Life Orb comfortably, and can sometimes fall short of a KO with White Herb, not to mention its Speed. However, the most recent problem I encountered when fighting SmashCosta is not how well it sweeps me: it's how it can force me to almost always sac a Pokemon when it can Smash. Most of the time, if you do not have Seismitoad, Tangela, Gurdurr, or something like Ditto, SmashCosta will kill something of yours if it gets the chance to Smash, and even then there's mixed Carra to handle defensive counters. Granted, it does get killed back by your revenge killer, residual damage or whatnot, but a high chance to snag a kill on whatever is worth a look at. So in case you were wondering, no I don't sweep with Carra very often at all, but I do almost always get a kill with it when I Smash, seeing as most would-be revenge killers risk a direct attack like Jynx switching into Stone Edge, or Primeape into Waterfall + Aqua Jet.

I also have a new insight on what can deserve to be S-Rank: if a Pokemon can fulfill both a valuable offensive niche or a defensive niche (Jynx's Dry Skin, Samurott & Musharna's resists, Pede's hazards), or just does its one job impeccably well (Kanga and Sawk), it can qualify for S-Rank. In the case of Carracosta, a tank set or wall set can put its titanic Defense and Solid Rock to much better use, because between them, (correct me if I'm wrong here) all of NU's prominent Normal- and Flying-attackers are manhandled. Tauros, Braviary, Swellow, Kangaskhan, Zangoose, Drifblim...all walled or tanked, even if they carry SE (physical) moves. Considering how hard these threats hit, it's quite a feat. Not having recovery still hurts its potential though, much like Seismitoad.

That said, even Carra's ability to fulfill both offensive and defensive roles may not be enough to keep it in S-Rank, as Golurk and Seismitoad also fit this criteria. I'm not objected to placing Carra in High-A, though that'd make most of my previous rants look a bit silly.

Alomomola up to High A from Mid A.
It walls everything, super amazing pivot. High A is just how amazing it is right now.

Amazing pivot it may be, but there is still a certain degree of risk when you ask basically every non Water-weak Pokemon with Taunt, Substitute or is part Poison-type to set up in your face, and they aren't exactly in short supply. That said, Wish can allow your sweepers to switch in with relatively little harm (unless faced with Substitute :/ ) against Alomo-fodder setup mons (particularly Roselia), so there may still be some hope for High-A yet.

 

[Blast]

I think the main problem with Kanga (and Mola) is that they're super amazing at what they do, but they're also so easily beaten. Kanga absolutely destroys low-health offensive threats but is walled and/or forced out by basically every prominent wall in the meta. Mola is an absolutely amazing defensive pivot/Wish passer, but is just so easy to turn into setup fodder. I think Kanga may or may not deserve Low-S for the same reasons Sawk is: does her job excellently but has so many checks and counters.

On the other hand, Mola can just switch and Regenerate back her health to prevent from being set up on. Kind of on the fence as of right now, but I suppose I'm leaning a bit toward Top-A.

On Costa, I'd have to agree with Top-A. There's no doubt Carracosta is super threatening after a Smash. However, the problem is the difficulty is has actually getting the Smash off. S-Rank mons are supposed to be "low-risk with high reward," but I really don't feel using Costa is really "low-risk" just because of how much offensive pressure hurts its ability to set up. Besides it's not like it's unbeatable even after a Smash since Scarf Jynx and Rotom can easily pick it off.

 

[Lolk]

I agree with all of the changes but kanga. The reason kanga is so up there (and momo should be up there) is they're the best at what they do. Kanga is the most reliable offense breaker in the tier and alomomola is the most reliable physical wall in the tier. As offensive/fast rock/steel-types are almost nonexistent in nu (bar carracosta after a smash), kangahas no trouble whatsoever at stopping dedicated offensive teams in their tracks. I can understand though if mom o doesn't move up as as a physical wall, more threats have been popping up that can break through its defense stat such as CB Sawk, SS Carracosta, and certain sub setup sweepers like Braviary and Sawsbuck (It is a physical wall. switch out on strong special attacks lol).

And now that I think about it, I have been using carracosta on my list for plowing through every mon (even beyond this post) so maybe it should not move down either lol.

 

[scorpdestroyer]

Nominating Skuntank for Low A-rank

Ok so this was brought up some time ago but was quickly shot down, but I feel that it's worthy of a push up. Skunk fulfills so many roles on a team. Sucker Punch and Pursuit are amazing tools, the former allowing it to take down faster foes and has decent power behind it, while the latter makes it the most foolproof way to take down most physically frail Pokemon. Musharna, Misdreavus, Roselia, Drifblim, Jynx are some of those I can name off the top of my head that Skuntank can waltz in on and play mindgames with. The combo of these two moves place lots of pressure on the opponent and becomes the classic Pursuit/sucker punch mindgames. Taunt is also a great move in Skuntank's arsenal, since it forces out things like Mandibuzz, Roselia, Musharna, Misdreavus... These things have ways to try and beat Skunk but they can all be beaten in return, for example, there is literally no harm in running as much Speed creep as you like on Skunk while Missy has to be careful of losing too much bulk. TWave Mush, Jynx and Missy fall prey to Lum Skunk, which can switch in on status (except from Jynx) and play Taunt/Pursuit mindgames. Jynx is a little harder to beat but Lum Skunk can beat it 1v1 with some prediction. And if you weren't convinced already, Skunk's poison typing allows it to absorb Toxic Spikes, fight back against Scarf Primeape, and completely defeat Roselia, while Aftermath is really nice to sac skunk to a physical attacker if you don't need it. All these are ignoring its other options like SubToxic, Roar, Steel Gem Iron Tail, etc. which I won't comment on because ive not used them. So yeah Skunk for Low-A please

I also want to bring up Drifblim for Mid-A.

It's not something I'm adamant on, but Drifblim's really good, with Unburden raising its speed to sky-high levels, and having a lot of utility outside of late-game sweeping, such as annoying opponents with SubDisable and luring Rocks with Will-O-Wisp and DBond to clear the way for a teammate. The CM set is also really good, it's like a slightly less powerful but much faster and thus better for late-game sweeping than NP Misdreavus. Also its typing is really cool since if it comes in safely can set up on Sawk, Primeape, Torterra, etc. Oh and it can also outspeed and beat Skuntank with Wisp or Destiny Bond or Sub, which a lot of other Ghost-types can't do

I don't think Mola should move up because it gets destroyed by special attackers and lots more new ways have popped up to beat it (Goth, SubToxic mons). I wouldn't oppose it entirely though, because mola just tanks hits from any physical attacker under the set (except Torterra) and pivots out if it switches into the wrong thing.

As much as I'd hate to say this, I agree with Kangaskhan moving down to Low-S. The current meta isn't very good for it, or not as good as before. Previously things like Jynx and Ludicolo were everywhere and Kanga would just be like "sup bitchez", but now, things like Musharna, Alomomomomomomo, and Mandibuzz are starting to come up everywhere, bulky offense is now more popular, and Kanga can't really destroy these things as well as it did to those offensie but paperish mons. It is still fantastic against offensive teams so it's staying in S-rank for sure, but I really can't say with as much confidence as before that Kanga is one of the best Pokemon in the meta, since Tauros does better against defensive teams and is faster.

 

[Lolk]

Drifblim probably shouldn't be mid-a since it is such a high risk high reward pokemon. It's so frail the only chance it has switching in and surviving a ohko or 2hko is with its nifty resistances and immunities. Even if it gets in, any flying resist can handle the acrobatics set very easily. Sure on offensive teams the upcoming burn can be detrimental, but the fact that Drifblim managed to get in on offensive teams safely is a pretty big surprise. It does kinda walk all over scolipede though as a cool perk, but that is not something to rely on every opponent using. The CM set is similar, as once you know that's the set, just send out a different pokemon to handle it's piss coverage, and it cant really surprise you with an immediate attack with it's low stats (even with gems). And strict utility sets are kinda laughable atm with misdreavus using them a whole lot better.

 

[Raseri]

kk changes cause its been really slow lately:

Carracosta down to High A from Low S
Kangaskhan down to Low S from Mid S
Skuntank up to Low A from High B

not moving Mola, Blim yet. I've been convinced that mola is more of Mid A material, needs more discussion on driffy still!

 

[ryan]

Agreeing with Alomomola for Top A. As Lolkomori said, while Alomomola might be one-dimensional, it's still the absolute best Pokemon in the tier at what it does. As I brought up in my recent post about Audino and Lickilicky, the prominence of hazards is enormous in NU, and having some way to buffer against these hazards is absolutely invaluable. Not only does Alomomola not care about hazards itself, but it also provides a lot of support for offensive and defensive Pokemon. I've used Alomomola extensively on bulky offense because you can open up a lot of free switches by coming in on something you can force out, Wishing, and then going out to an offensive check to whatever came in. It's almost VoltTurn-y in this sense, because you're pretty much guaranteeing a free switch for a partner. Defensively, Alomomola is a near staple on stall (I don't know how long it's been since I've built a stall team without it). Eviolite Pokemon are really good on stall because of their great bulk and often because of unique typing for lower tiers, and Alomomola makes them even more viable by keeping them from being worn down easily throughout the match without relying on RestTalk.

I don't think Mola should move up because it gets destroyed by special attackers and lots more new ways have popped up to beat it (Goth, SubToxic mons). I wouldn't oppose it entirely though, because mola just tanks hits from any physical attacker under the set (except Torterra) and pivots out if it switches into the wrong thing.

I don't care for this argument at all. SubToxic mons don't "beat" Alomomola because it just uses Wish and then passes out to something else. Plus, on a team where you might need to keep Alomomola in for a while, you probably have Heal Bell support waiting in the wings for later. If you're using Alomomola as a dedicated physical wall and only using Wish as a way of recovering itself, you're using it TOTALLY wrong, and I can understand why you might not find it Top A material. The fact that it gets "destroyed by special attackers" (which the mixed defensive spread doesn't get destroyed by all special attackers, by the way) doesn't even matter because you obviously cover them with something else. Alomomola can't wall everything. On top of that, Alomomola actually helps its teammates take on special attackers for it by providing it with recovery. It's not entirely self-sufficient, no, but the fact that it can support teammates that support it is really fantastic and propels it a lot. Gothorita is obviously problematic for Alomomola, but it's not like 1/5 teams carries a Gothorita. Hell, not even 1/100 teams carries it. No, Alomomola isn't unbeatable, but the support it provides is sooo tremendous that I'm all for it moving up. To me, the support it provides is 1,000x more important than its bulk.

Some other noms I wanted to bring up now!

Weezing for Low B.

Weezing got hyped a lot back when Primeape and Scolipede dropped because of its great defensive typing, and while I agree that its defensive typing is still really cool, there are a lot of flaws with it. First off, Weezing is a Poison-type that doesn't absorb Toxic Spikes, which is honestly really problematic. If you want to run Weezing, you have to choose whether to have no good answer to Toxic Spikes or a huge weakness to Psychic-types (unless you're running Skuntank with it, in which case CB Sawk is gonna have some fun). Golbat, another bulky Poison-type that doesn't absorb Toxic Spikes, is honestly better than Weezing imo because it can still check CB Sawk, has great Speed with Taunt, and most importantly, has reliable recovery. The main problem with it is that the only Fighting-type it actually checks is Gurdurr. Primeape is just going to U-turn out from it, while Sawk can just EQ it. The lack of reliable recovery that I mentioned earlier is huge too because it means that Weezing can be worn down a lot more easily than other Fighting-type checks such as Musharna and Golbat.

Camerupt for Top B.

Fucking camel man. Camerupt is actually really really good. It has the bulk, typing, and ability to function as a nice specially defensive tank and the power and typing to function as a reaaaally powerful attacker. I just built with Specs Camerupt today and faced Raseri running Band Camerupt, and they were both really good even though they're totally different from one another haha. Camerupt's versatility is just so good, and Solid Rock makes its average bulk actually significant when taking super effective attacks. It's also one of the only Fire-types in NU that is actually viable, and it doesn't have to worry too much about Stealth Rock, which is huge for it.

Spinda and Makuhita for cute.
edit: and Shroomish
edit: and Wailmer
edit: and Spheal
edit: AND BUNNELBY

Just look at 'em. :')

 

[Punchshroom]

Physical Drifblim only uses Acrobatics and can use its other slots to disrupt roadblocks, but it's another thing when it comes to actually sweeping. The initial Acrobatics packs a whopping 165 base power , which becomes 247.5 after STAB, then you become untouchable to every Choice Scarfer in the tier. Sounds awesome right? The thing is that you're subsequent attacks have 110 base power. While that is still strong, it becomes less impressive when you consider that this is 110 base power STAB coming from base 80 Attack. Now compare this to Kangaskhan's Double-Edge, or Braviary's Brave Bird. That's much less impressive when you look at it now is it? I mean, Blimp is still blazingly fast, but it won't get any stronger after that first inital hit, which diminishes its use against bulkier Pokemon.

252 Atk Flying Gem Drifblim Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Kangaskhan: 235-277 (66.76 - 78.69%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Yeah you can't KO a Kangaskhan, so you'd better make that Gem Acrobatics count, and make sure your subsequent Acrobatics can finish off the remainder of the team too.

Special Drifblim functions differently in that it can boost, more specifically with Calm Mind. This not only powers it up but also makes it bulkier on the special side, so when it comes time to attacking you can really do some work. Special Drifblim also has coverage, something which AcroBlimp doesn't. However, unlike AcroBlimp, CM Blimp cannot boost its speed and attack power (by using up the Gem) in one fell swoop: CM Blimp has to boost up, then attack to get the most out of Unburden. This is a problem when you consider that this requires 2 turns to setup, Shadow Ball isn't the strongest (prob one of the weakest in fact) STAB around, and CM Blimp doesn't have the room for disruptive options like Will-o-Wisp, Disable and Destiny Bond that AcroBlimp has.

Drifblim, like Zangoose, suffers from a design flaw. In the case of Blimp, once you use up that Gem, you probably want to stay in until the very end, because chances are you won't be able to sweep again with a meager 80 base speed. This is essentially operating on the same principle as SmashCosta: go big or go home. While AcroBlimp and CMBlimp have different setup conditions and targets, both are stopped well by Rock-types (Golem) or Steel-types (Bastiodon, Probopass) as well as stuff like Piloswine, Alomomola or Eelektross, which renders the "attack from either side of the spectrum" concept that much less potent. If the opponent has a bulky phazer on the team like Mandibuzz, Bastiodon, Piloswine/Golem or Lickilicky (if you lack Sub), you can't even try to land chip damage on them with your strongest attack for fear of them wasting your Unburden boost, so you just sit there and chip away at them with your lesser attacks until they are in range, and that can take a while.

Conclusion: Drifblim can pull off pretty cool sweeps, but its flaws are pretty apparent. Low-A from me.

 

[azureleaf17]

Nominating Togetic for top-D or low-C.

D-rank: Reserved for Pokemon that are mediocre in the NU metagame, but are decent enough to justify their use on some teams. These Pokemon are either usable but have no real niche, or are only capable of doing their specific task and fail at doing anything more than that.

After using this thing for a while, I think that it's surprising that it hasn't even got a place on the viability ranking. Even though it doesn't have many moves to use, the ones that it's given are fantastic for supporting its teammates and crippling your opponent. It gets the ubiquitous Toxic and Thunder Wave, but as a tank with 55/85/105 defenses boosted by Eviolite, Roost and Heal Bell help it immensely. Encore is also incredibly useful for its teammates, and it can pass Wishes (although coming off of 55 base HP, it's really not the best thing for that).

What hurts most is its typing; being weak a bunch of common attacking types (Ice, Electric, Rock) does not help its tanking ability. Stealth Rock in particular turns a lot of possible 2HKO's and 3HKO's into clean 2HKO's. You wouldn't want to switch it in on Jynx's Ice Beam or offensive Ampharos's Thunderbolt, which are two incredible powerful super-effective moves that will score clean 2HKO's on Togetic if Stealth Rock is up. But there's a number of threats that it can neuter because of its immense special bulk and passable physical bulk:

252+ SpA Life Orb Samurott Ice Beam vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Togetic: 122-146 (38.97 - 46.64%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs (or +1 252+ SpA Leftovers) Musharna Psychic vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Togetic: 99-117 (31.62 - 37.38%) -- 87.7% chance to 3HKO
252+ SpA Life Orb Charizard Fire Blast vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Togetic: 117-138 (37.38 - 44.08%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
+2 252 SpA Eviolite Misdreavus Thunderbolt vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Togetic: 146-172 (46.64 - 54.95%) -- 60.55% chance to 2HKO
252+ SpA Life Orb Ludicolo Ice Beam vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Togetic: 109-130 (34.82 - 41.53%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

These are some of the most powerful common special attackers in NU. Anything weaker, and Togetic can sponge quite a few hits and Roost off the damage, crippling the opponent with status or Encore and attacking with Tri Attack (which has a 40% chance of burning, paralyzing, or freezing because of Serene Grace). Again, Stealth Rock hurts, so Rapid Spin support really helps.

I've used the other set on the site very well, which is Baton Pass with Nasty Plot. Only Mr. Mime can do the same thing in NU, but Mr. Mime has Soundproof and Leftovers whereas Togetic has far superior defenses and reliable recovery. With Nasty Plot and Roost, you have an incredibly bulky tank with a moderately powerful Special STAB that can pass off the boost(s) to a teammate should a counter come in. (I really wish Togetic could learn Tri Attack with Nasty Plot, but they're incompatible )

Can someone else also test Togetic and see if it deserves a spot on the viability ranking?

 

[jake]

gonna make a bit of a controversial nom. i think sawk should be dropped to Top A. it no longer really fits the definition of S-Rank, which is as follows:

Reserved for Pokemon that are amazing in the NU metagame. These Pokemon are usually able to perform a variety of roles effectively, or can just do one extremely well. Their use has low risk involved and high reward exerted. Pokemon in this tier have very few flaws that are patched up by numerous positive traits.

sawk doesn't fit any of these, anymore. the one role it can do (lol variety) is really just cb attacker, which i don't think it does "extremely well". keep in mind i'm not saying it's bad at all, just that it's not ~so good~ that it merits being in S-Rank. let me explain by breaking it down into a number of points:

- sawk relies on being choice-locked to be effective. fist plate and other similar sets are pretty alright, but they do very little to open up sawk or have it do a better job. without choice band, sawk cannot OHKO regirock or metang or a few other hazard setters, nullifying one of its best traits. it also loses the ability to threaten a 2HKO on alomomola.
- sawk has many, many checks and a number of counters. fighting-type resists and generally bulky pokemon are very good switch-ins to sawk. musharna is the primary hard counter, since it eats up everything sawk can do and gets a free turn out of it. unlike its competitor primeape, sawk can't even really reliably punish musharna for coming in with u-turn. most poison- and ghost-types can also check sawk very very well, as can a number of bug-types and psychic-types. alomomola and tangela also counter every sawk variant pretty hard, though neither really likes toxic. i really can't think of any recent, good teams that have been without at least two checks to sawk or a musharna. fact of the matter is, sawk faces a /ton/ of difficulty getting anything done in today's metagame.
- sawk cannot wallbreak well. this is summed up pretty well by a common scenario: sawk ccs as alomomola switches in to scout the set. if it's determined to be choice-locked, alomomola user switches out to resist. if it's not choiced, alomomola stays in and wins 1v1 very easily. sure, it does this job better with hazards but if we assume hazards for every wallbreaker does that mean rampardos should be S? :(
- sawk is now slow. since the speed tiers got ramped up with the addition of jynx and ape, most offensive teams carry a number of pokemon (if not many more) that are faster than base 85. sawk cannot outspeed and pressure as many pokemon as it used to be able to, and offensive teams can very very easily revenge it. scarf sawk is also slower than all preferred scarfers nowadays.

i don't think sawk is as good as we hype it up to be. every semi-decent team in today's metagame carries several pkmn that can handle it well or very easily outspeed and revenge (or otherwise take advantage of it) and it's just not really worth sticking it in S because it OHKOes some SR pokemon. if you have a musharna, sawk is outright useless unless you wanna start double switching every other turn. it's been the benchmark of power for NU for a long time, but i think the metagame has moved beyond it and it's time to reflect that by dropping it to just Top A.

 

[Infernis]

I don't think that's all true, my friend. I've been running mine (and DTC's) Taunt/Close Combat/Ice Punch/Earthquake fighting gem set, and it's pretty great at stopping the rocks. I run an expert belt set to jump people sometimes, and it blows stuff up just fine. I occasionally run life orb when I don't care about surprise, and it blows stuff up. Can't OHKO Metang or Regirock? Use taunt, proceed to slam and jam while they can't set up rocks.

So Sawk can't hit Musharna for much. Neither does Primeape's u-turn, honestly, and even other S-Rank Pokemon have their counters. What can your average Scolipede do against Swellow? What can Kangaskhan do about Gurdurr? Everything has its counters. The difference here is that Musharna is really common. There's a bit of confirmation bias here, since for the most part only things that can wall Sawk count as walls in NU. Also, Taunt completely screws up Alomomola that don't run Scald. Even if they do, you can probably get a few full-power close combats off and wreck face if they try to stay in. And even against a choice-locked Sawk, they could switch out to a resist, but you can also switch out to something that can beat what they switch in. You can't just spam the same choice locked attacks and expect it to work. Even S-Rank Pokemon take some degree of thought to use properly.

Just because one Pokemon (Musharna) shuts down most every Sawk set doesn't mean the metagame has 'moved on'. It just means that stage 8 is still alive and well. Skuntank shuts down Jynx, but that doesn't mean Jynx isn't incredibly viable. Scarf Sawk might be a bit slower than before, but it never was supposed to beat the opponent's scarfer. In stage 7 and 8 I used all sorts of scarfers that were already faster than base 85, and I use a lot of the same ones now. The only scarfers I use less now are the ones between 85 and 95, like the Rotoms. That's not really a whole huge metagame shift.

 

[watashi]

i'm sure audino and mandibuzz count as walls lol

also if you're using anything other than choice band you're getting stopped by a lot of things

also not everyone leads with their stealth rocker when they see sawk

 

[Infernis]

for the most part

^^^

Making someone not lead with their rocker is a pretty fair boon as well. Again, mindgames.

 

[watashi]

all of the attackers in s rank may have hard counters like sawk but they have a certain amount of utility to them while sawk's only niche other than spamming close combat is mold breaker and as i said, all the opponent has to do is not leader with their stealth rocker. i don't get how that's a boon either since it goes either way because they can lead with something that beats sawk and you automatically lose momentum.

 

[Infernis]

Luckily, teams include 6 Pokemon and both teams are free to start with any one of them. So you only automatically lose momentum if you choose wrong. ~~~☆

Let's not get too vociferous now.

 

[soulgazer]

sorry this post might be tiny, might add more later.

I agree with Sawk for Top A. Sawk's only niche in this metagame is running a Choice Band set with Mold Breaker, since Choice Scarf Sawk isn't nearly as effective as it once was when entry hazards weren't that easy to stack. Don't get me wrong though, Sawk is still very threatening, but since the April drops Sawk's base Speed isn't the one to beat. Base 95 is the speed to beat currently, which Sawk fails to accomplish with its base 85. The drops also brought Jynx and Primeape, where the former is arguably the best scarfer in the metagame ( and can easily check Sawk if it can switch safely) and the latter can run Choice Scarf and Choice Band to great effect with U-turn and its base 95 Speed. The drops also brought Scolipede, which made Spike stacking easy to accomplish and wearing down Sawk and many other Pokemon easy to do in a tier where Rapid Spinner aren't used much. The result of the drops: a faster metagame where Ghost-types like Golurk and Misdreavus are used more ( spinblocker), all of which didn't help Sawk at all. With that in mind, I don't think Sawk still deserve to be S-rank as it only has one good niche and Sawk is handled much easier (could go as far as everyone overprepare for it too).

Sorry if this post confuse someone