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Gen 5 NU Viability Rankings 2.0

Discussion in 'Ruins of Alph' started by Raseri, May 26, 2013.

  1. Brawlfest

    Brawlfest BANNEDDEUCERIMO
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    MoxieInfinite I dont believe any durastic changes in terms of important KO's that Ebelt gets over standard outside of Alomomola, who is brought into 18% chance to OHKO range.

    I can see the benefit, but to be completely honest when going for the bluff Eviolite far outclasses it due to the fact that it actually lets Electabuzz switch into attacks more recklessly. While that may reveal bulk, it also demonstrates reckless revenge killing, possibly bluffing a choice scarf.
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  2. scorpdestroyer

    scorpdestroyer is a pious radio
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    Can whoever keeps editing the OP with shitmons stop? The viability rankings are a legit resource and generally very helpful, but I don't want new players to doubt the credibility of this when they see Treecko or Sealeo, or worse, thinking they are actually good because they are not

    edit: Mega Medicham too, that seriously takes away a lot of credibility from the rankings

    Raseri remove it pls?
    Last edited: Jan 31, 2014
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  3. Hollywood

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    God new meta is going to fuck with this thread more than I did the other night.

    Should be interesting to see what fills the Top S slot as the metagame evolves.

    [edit] atomicllamas I fixed the spacing for u
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  4. ScraftyIsTheBest

    ScraftyIsTheBest I Love Goomy
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    Remove Jynx and Scolipede from the ranks please. Anyways, a few basic noms since this thread will need a lot of changes lol.

    Gardevoir to somewhere in A-Rank (likely High A) because it's crazy strong and very versatile too; it was super good prior to Jynx joining and without Jynx there's nothing to compete with Gardevoir for an offensive Psychic-type. Well rounded stats aside from the bad physical bulk are neat and it has an amazing movepool with ways to fuck with all of its counters (T-bolt for Mandibuzz, WoW and D-bond for Skunk) and being a nice jack of all trades is just awesome. Trace is also an awesome ability so it can check Ludicolo and the like. This thing has a lot of qualities and without Jynx putting it in A-Rank should be a no brainer.

    Sawsbuck should be higher too since now it's Speed tier is somewhat more valuable again, SD set is a boss with Normal / Grass coverage which is quite good, and Nature Power (EQ) to hit Steels such as Metang, and in general makes for a really strong offensive threat that can threaten many teams. Sap Sipper is also a cool ability to jump in on Sleep Powder, and this ability should be more relevant since Grasses should be on the rise again without Jynx and Scolipede (btw, good riddance). There's not much to say but this thing is definitely awesome.

    Metang down from A because without Jynx to counter it's not that great anymore, it's weak and lacks recovery so while it's decent it's not amazing. It can still do well as a viable SR setter that can check Normal/Flying types (important as always) but it has to compete with Golem, Regirock, etc.

    Also the Jynx ban makes me disagree with moving Braviary down, SubBU is bulky and it's hard to take down, and it hits hard too and has good coverage.

    There are a lot of other changed needed but I'll have to test out the new Jynx/Scolipede-less meta more (although it kinda looks like Stage 8 again lol), just wanted to get what I feel are no brainers out there.
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  5. Brawlfest

    Brawlfest BANNEDDEUCERIMO
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    Braviary to Top A, because without Jynx it has become that much more threatening. It's speed tier also rocks now, sitting at a very solid 80, and with those two out of the way it's scarf set can start to gain back some viability again. However, the set I am looking at is SubBU who while was a threat when Yynx was around, is even moreso with her gone, as she was one of the few things who could reliably beat it one on one without a sub, especially if it is a sashed variant.

    Golurk might be able to make a move for S, or stay in A. I could be swayed either way. The fact is that Scolipede could set up spikes all over its face as a lead, while doing more than pleasant with Aqua Tail, and Jynx could straight up wreck it without Yache Berry. With them out of the way and the metagame taking a turn for the SLOW, CB Lurk might prove to be better than ever, hitting hard and having a surprisingly respectable speed and bulk, while finding it's place in the meta as simply a great poke now with them two stopping the hindering

    Why Grass types all so enjoy this change? :[
  6. Namso

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    I don't think it's worth it to start immediately suggesting changes. Jynx and Scolipede were just banned; let the metagame settle a bit before you begin evaluating certain Pokemon. For example, Mandibuzz and Charizard can easily rise in popularity due to the absence of those guys, making Gardevoir and Sawsbuck just as easy to deal with as before. Who knows?
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  7. Karane

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    Golduck in Low C is complete bullshit imo. Before ditching it for being outclassed and being an inferior Samurott/Simipour, I would like to point out that it has a variety of niches. Alongside being a powerful Hydro Spammer (95 Spa. + Life Orb), it can do some really cool stuff such as Encore using its decent 85 speed. It gets Aqua Jet if you wanna go mixed to check Charizard. One special thing about Golduck comes in his unique ability in Cloud Nine. Using cloud nine, Golduck can be a decent weather check beating Seismitoad, Victreebel, Exeggcutor etc in their own weather. It can decently check SD Samurott by encoring it into SD or eating up Aqua jet if it decides to go for it. And the first and foremost one is its access to Psyshock which allows it to destroy Roselia, a huge threat to rain and water spam teams.

    Golduck is so pro it deserves to be at least somewhere in the B rank.
  8. Brawlfest

    Brawlfest BANNEDDEUCERIMO
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    It has usable stats and a pretty solid movepool, but it simply suffers legit 4MSS and is outclassed in the majority of roles it has. Talking about it's standard SubCM, it doesn't have the necessary bulk or speed oftentimes to pull it off, and it's encore is simply too slow oftentimes to be of utility. At most it is Low B. As a setup sweeper, pokemon like Simipour and Ludicolo straight up outclass it, with more power, speed, and reliability. On the other spectrum, hydro spammers like Samurott hit way harder, and aren't that far off it's base speed, and it loses its niche to them to. You are overselling its utility imo.

    On another note, I feel that Lickilicky should rise to Mid B and Audino should fall to there to. While it is completely outclassed as a wish passer, their primary niche, Lickilicky has one more trick up it's sleeve in SubSD. This is terribly underrated, tearing apart any and all relavant stall teams, making it an amazing Stallbreaker for more offensive teams which have no ability to push through. Audino on the other hand, has only one usable niche, but that niche does warrant it enough to be only around Mid B.

    Mandibuzz for S too good no explanation needed.
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  9. Karane

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    I agree on the Lickilicky and Mandibuzz part but Golduck is not bulky?! 80/82/78/95/80/85 is pretty decent imo but I wasn't talking about the standard set anyway. The set I've been using is basically the modded Samurott's set but with encore. I know Rott gets Encore too but the speed and the ability is what differentiates it from its older brother.

    Dr.Quack (Golduck) @ Life Orb
    Ability: Cloud Nine
    EVs: 252 SAtk / 252 Spd / 4 HP
    Timid Nature
    - Hydro Pump
    - Ice Beam / Psyshock
    - Hidden Power [Grass]
    - Encore
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  10. scorpdestroyer

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    tbh the only thing that sets Golduck apart from Samurott is Cloud Nine. Encore isn't really a thing because there's nothing much between the speed tiers that you need to outspeed and Encore, the only notable ones being Samurott and Ludicolo but you hardly want to switch into them anyway because they have the potential to KO you on the switch. With that set you listed Golduck can't even get past Ludicolo unless it Encores it into Rain Dance, so pretty much Golduck's niche as an Encore user over Samurott is being able to Encore Samurott into Swords Dance, and considering it really only works once a game and switching into something as unpredictable as Samurott is pretty dangerous, it isn't really that great. Most of the time you would want Samurott's greater power and bulk and if you really wanted Encore, you could always fit it into either of its sets.

    As for beating Roselia, I'll give you that but then again Samurott can 2HKO after Stealth Rock damage and it seems like Psyshock's only purpose is for Roselia which is rather gimmicky.

    I think Golduck's niche is its ability to fit onto sun teams without having many repercussions thanks to Cloud Nine. An offensive set could probably work then, but under normal circumstances I'd use Samurott if I needed the bulk or Simipour if I needed the speed.

    tl;dr: I disagree with Karane, at most I can deal with it moving to Mid C but it's not good enough for B in my opinion
  11. WhiteDMist

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    Yeah, sadly Golduck really doesn't have too much to distinguish itself from other Water-types. Encore is really done better by Samurott simply because a) it is still faster than most defensive Pokes that you would want to Encore in the first place and b) it has the bulk to survive attacks from faster threats and Encore them (usually to provide a safe switch in for a teammate). Golduck honestly has neither the Speed to fully abuse a fast Encore nor the bulk to take advantage of a slower one, so the only Pokes that it works better against are SD Samurott (on the SD or Aqua Jet), Ludicolo (on the RD or Ice Beam), offensive Seismitoad (on the SR or Sub mostly), Coil Arbok on Coil or Sucker Punch, and possibly CM Gardevoir on the CM. Not a bad list, but I wasn't impressed enough to include it in the analysis.

    Going mixed with Aqua Jet is pretty pointless as Samurott is far better at checking Charizard due to its higher bulk, Atk, and Torrent actually giving Aqua Jet a little oomph. Psyshock is not bad, but it isn't too powerful and really only helps against Roselia and Mantine specifically as far as I've ever been able to see (it does about the same as Hydro Pump against most special walls). I guess its also nice to reliably hit Fighting and Poison-types without relying on Hydro Pump, but in the end the question is: is hitting a wide range of Pokes for mediocre damage better than hitting more specific targets for great damage and failing to hit others significantly? All-Out-Attacking is decent, but it has almost nothing to distinguish itself from Simipour (who is faster AND more powerful, has Nasty Plot, Acrobatics, and Torrent for wallbreaking and/or sweeping).

    IMO the main aspects about Golduck that should be focusing on are Cloud Nine and Calm Mind. There are very few usable CM Water-types in NU, and Calm Mind makes use of Golduck's decentish special bulk to its fullest. I've also always loved using it on Sun teams simply because it is one of the few Water-types that aren't significantly hindered by it due to Cloud Nine (and Golduck can actually revenge kill some weather sweepers on its own). CM + 3 Attacks is decent as a late-game cleaner, though its base 85 Speed makes it just average at best for this role. Personally I like the SubCM set on-site since it makes good use of Golduck's greater bulk over Simipour and can boost to the point where it outshines Samurott in power. The biggest problem about it for me is that Golduck really wants both Ice Beam and Signal Beam to hit both Roselia and Ludicolo sufficiently after 2 Calm Minds. The SubCM set can beat either one at near full HP, since +2 Golduck takes 42.28% maximum damage from Modest Ludicolo's Giga Drain. Timid may outspeed, but it does only 53.5% max when Golduck is at +1 (accounting for Life Orb), while Signal Beam does 56.2 - 66.8% at +1 so Golduck can 2HKO due to the Life orb damage while Ludicolo has a 0.4% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery in return. I think this is a notable niche over Samurott (who has to Megahorn on the switch or else risk a Speed tie) and Simipour (who needs Acrobatics to win, likely forcing it to run a one-use Flying Gem and forgo Nasty Plot).

    tl;dr: Top C Rank at best, it just faces a lot of competition from similar Water-types and its notable niches are decent/good at best. Jynx and Scolipede are banned now, but Golduck still has plenty to worry about (though beating Mandibuzz isn't too bad). I wouldn't argue Mid C either, it's still a jack-of-all trades.
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  12. tennisace

    tennisace another eggnog, please
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    WhiteDMist I don't know how it would even be considered for higher than Low C, considering I would rather use something like Basculin or Lapras since they have more defined roles and Golduck is just kinda a mish-mash of mediocrity. It's pretty ok where it is right now.

    Golduck wants all of Hydro Pump / Ice Beam / HP Grass / Encore / Aqua Jet / Sub / CM but since that's impossible, it's stuck losing to various threats depending on your choice. The difference is you really need your team to pick up the slack from it since it's not really bulky enough to take powerful resisted hits and doesn't have recovery of its own. Yes, I understand it's an offensive Pokemon and that you generally don't want to switch offensive Pokemon in on things, but it's a poor revenge killer too since it's slow with Life Orb, weak with Choice Scarf, and doesn't generally scare many things away once you figure out the set.

    PS: 4 Atk Neutral LO Aqua Jet can't KO Charizard even after SR, it does like 47% max. You need the SpA if you want to 2hko Mandibuzz with Ice Beam, and you need the speed if you want to speed tie CB Sawk / outspeed all the random stuff floating around base 80. PS: Bolding various words doesn't make points more correct.
    Last edited: Mar 22, 2014
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  13. Brawlfest

    Brawlfest BANNEDDEUCERIMO
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    Alright. The rule for me is to never dirt on something till I've tried it. Upon testing Karane 's Golduck, I say it should Stay In C Rank. The fact is, two pokemon directly outclass it. Samurott and Simipour. Due to such, it has no viable niche in utilizing an All-Out-Attacking Set, or a Sweeping Set, as everything it can do, the aforementioned two pokemon can do better. Simply put, it has Mediocre Bulk, Mediocre Speed, Mediocre Special Attack, and a Mediocre Movepool. Throw that together, and it has little traits outside of Cloud Nine to distinguish it from things like Basculin and Floatzel.

    [​IMG]
    Samurott @ Life Orb
    Ability: Torrent
    EVs: 252 SAtk / 4 SDef / 252 Spd
    Modest Nature
    - Hydro Pump
    - Hidden Power [Grass]
    - Ice Beam
    - Encore / Taunt

    This is the first set which outclasses the previously suggested All-Out-Attacking Golduck set. Simply put, Golduck is incapable of reliably encoring the majority of sweepers sitting between 70 and 85 base speed as it is incapable of switching in, and thus should not focus on that. Instead, it should be utilizing it's relatively slow encore to beat bulky setup sweepers like Musharna and Gurdurr..But Samurott can to. Samurott targets all of the same pokemon that Golduck is able to effectively target due to similar base speeds, but with Better Bulk, Better Special Attack, and an amazing ability in Torrent, it packs a lot more of a punch. It also has access to the great alternative in Taunt, allowing it to be the absolute bane to any stall team in existence.

    [​IMG]
    Simipour @ Life Orb
    Ability: Torrent
    EVs: 252 Spd / 252 SAtk / 4 SDef
    Timid Nature
    - Hydro Pump
    - Hidden Power [Grass]
    - Ice Beam
    - Taunt / Nasty Plot

    This second set also completely outclasses Golduck, and I would use it over it any day. Simply put, while it doesn't have access to encore like Samurott or Golduck, it has Taunt and Nasty Plot, two great moves. Taunt, as I mentioned with Samurott, shuts down many stall teams and effectively beats many leads. Nasty Plot on the other hand, lets Simipour sweep, and again shows a way that Golduck's other more common Calm Mind set is completely outclassed. While it lacks bulk, the extra power and speed definitively make up for it, especially when you consider that it is one of the few pokemon who can reliably kill charizard without utilizing a choice scarf, beating NU's golden base 95 speed.

    In conclusion, it isn't that Golduck is bad, there just isn't a reason to use it above other more relevant water types in the tier, as everything it has to offer is average at best.
    _____________________________________________________

    Metang is my 2nd favorite stealth rocker in the tier, but sadly it doesn't deserve a A Ranking anymore. It's niche of being one of the few pokemon to consistently check Jynx, one of NU's biggest threats, is gone, and thus it honestly is just a outclassed hunk of metal. I suggest moving it to Top B for this reason alone, simply because the one thing that made it great now no longer exists.

    Rotom-Fan for Low A rank. Now that the speed tiers have come down a bit, it's 88 Spd in unison with it's amazing 105 SAtk sets it apart from all the other electric types in the tier. Without Jynx, it is actually very difficult to kill, and it has become one of the premier revenge killers and special attackers of the tier. It is also surprisingly unpredictable with its awesome Expert Belt set, being able to reliably bait in and kill threats such as Golem and Seismitoad, nabbing early game kills with no issue. It can also destroy some of the more threatning water types and grass types in the tier, and access to Trick and a Choice Scarf just puts it above the majority of the revenge killers the tier has access to, crippling even defensive pokemon.

    *EDIT*
    Lickilicky for Top B, not for its outclassed by audino wish set, but for its amazing SubSD set. This set alone is what makes lickilicky far better than Audino, as it packs a surprise factor, and is the glue for any solid offensive team against a stall team, as it continues to beat pokemon such as Alomomola, who cry in front of the power that is SubSD Licki.
    Last edited: Mar 23, 2014
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  14. WhiteDMist

    WhiteDMist PU! We don't stink though!
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    tennisace I admit that Top C is stretching it (nor would I go any higher than C rank), but Mid C seems just fine for Golduck. Calm Mind is a mildly effective niche, Cloud Nine is another situational niche, and setting up on Metang and Alomomola somewhat more easily than Samurott and SubNP Simipour (can't compare to Gorebyss ofc) are all pretty nice abilities. In C rank, Lapras seems about as effective in its defined role of a tank as Golduck is at its various niches, while Basculin is better at wallbreaking due to Superpower (assuming you were talking about special Basculin). Slow boosting isn't particularly easy in a metagame that is biased towards offense, but Golduck can much more easily set up on balanced and stall teams. Shouldn't that be enough to make it a solid mid C?

    But if everyone thinks that Golduck sucks and it's not worth the effort, then I'll let the debate die here.

    P.S.- I bolded Modest to emphasize that Golduck takes a little less than half from one of the more powerful Giga Drains in the tier, alongside the actual bolded damage calc. I bolded my highball opinion on rank (forgot to bold the lowball one) to make it stand out from the wall of text. So why are you picking on the bolding when it is simply drawing attention to a notable ability that Golduck has?
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  15. Dat Blast

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    I don't really have a fixed opinion on Golduck, but I just wanted to bring this up: whenever I see Low-C rank, I see sort of a trend with the Pokemon that they're all not ~bad~ Pokemon per se, but are just utterly outclassed by other stuff (or at least I do). Meaning, they're capable of doing work, but you never really consider them for your team unless you're building around them because their niches are too specific in 95% of scenarios. (Speaking of which, Swoobat should really be down there.) However, Golduck's collection of small niches actually does warrant its use on certain teams; in particular, sun. Like others already mentioned, Golduck is the only Water-type in the tier that can fit onto sun teams without being hindered by it, as well as provide a decent weather check in general thanks to Cloud Nine. So imo the real question is: does Golduck play an important enough role on sun teams to warrant moving up? It's able to check opposing Fire-types, which is useful, as well as rain sweepers (to an extent). It can also set up on both Steel-types and Alomomola at the same time, easing up pressure on its teammates. Like I said, I don't really have a fixed opinion on it but I think that's the real issue to be addressed when it comes to mid- or low-C for Golduck.
  16. Brawlfest

    Brawlfest BANNEDDEUCERIMO
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    Mantine for Top B. Simply put, it is a versatile and effective pokemon in the current metagame who requires little support. While stealth rock weak, it walls a slew of threats, and can go completely offensive with its amazingly manly Rain Dance set. On top of this, it is one of few pokemon who can beat threats such as Ludicolo and Seismitoad in their own weather, and stands out as one of the best checks to rain in the tier. Overall, while it is not a A-Rank threat, it has enough versatility and effectivity in each of its niches to warrant it Top B.

    Sawsbuck for Low A. As the NU metagame currently sits, Sawsbuck stands out as a top tier threat. Sitting at the coveted 95 speed, it no longer faces threats such as Scolipede and Jynx, and receives a chance to shine. While it is quite predictable, juggling primarily between the moves Substitute, Swords Dance, Horn Leech, Nature Power, Return, Double Edge, and Baton Pass, it also sees more unconventional moves as well such as Aromatherapy, Jump Kick, and Leech Seed. Overall, while you may have a clue of what Sawsbuck is going to do, you really cannot reliably know its complete set. On top of this, it beats the majority of physical walls one v one, especially when packing Substitute. This is inclusive of Misdreavus, Alomomola, and Tangela, all top tier physical walls. Being able to break through these, having a amazing STAB combination in NU, and a great base speed, means that it is immensely difficult to check defensively or offensively as of now.
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  17. Nozzle

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    yay brawlfest hyping up mantine :D

    Anyway i fully agree with Brawlfest as ive used the rain dance set alot as of late. Cant say much about the bulky set though. But the fact that mantine counters ludicolo and seismitoad and can get past threats like roselia that other rain sweepers get stuck on makes it Top B imo.

    I'd like to suggest Zangoose moving up to Top-A atleast since Zangoose now has a sweet speed tier and it breaks walls with ease which is great cuz the meta now is way bulkier overall.

    I'd also like to suggest to put Haunter in Mid-A, it has an amazing speed tier, has great coverage between STAB's, Tbolt and HP Ground, and is very unpredictable since it can also carry substitute, disable, pain split and dbond. Even though its very frail it's incredibly hard to play around if it gets in safely and can weaken your opponents team easily to let something else sweep later on.

    And my last suggestion is to get Tangela in Low-A. Tangela has always been a solid mon and has been very annoying to take out for many players. The meta is mainly physical and it can easily force something out and cripple the switch in with powders and switch out to regain health. I personally like to pair it with Spdef musharna to form a nice bulky core that actually picks up momentum with ease.

    I have some more suggestions but i think this is enough for now ;)
    Last edited: Apr 4, 2014
  18. Meteor 17

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    Regirock for Mid A. Regirock is one of the best defensive walls out there and can tank and stall great. It sets up SR very nicely, and a positive nature with 0 EVs gives him 479 defense. 479! Backed up by 361 HP, it can tank the mightiest of threats. For example:

    252 Atk Choice Band Sawk Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 0+ Def Regirock: 284-336 (78 - 92.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
    +2 252+ Atk Samurott Waterfall vs. 252 HP / 0+ Def Regirock: 236-282 (64.8 - 77.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
    252+ Atk Iron Fist Gurdurr Drain Punch vs. 252 HP / 0+ Def Regirock: 138-164 (37.9 - 45%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
    252+ Atk Life Orb Sawsbuck Jump Kick vs. 252 HP / 0+ Def Regirock: 130-153 (35.7 - 42%) -- 88.5% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

    It can even take some special hits:

    4 SpA Exeggutor Giga Drain vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Regirock: 198-234 (54.3 - 64.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
    252 SpA Charizard Solar Beam vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Regirock: 230-272 (63.1 - 74.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
    252+ SpA Ludicolo Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Regirock: 306-362 (84 - 99.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
    4 SpA Serperior Leaf Storm vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Regirock: 222-264 (60.9 - 72.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

    It also performs great cores with Specially Defensive Ludicolo and Golurk and fits into many teams. It also can stop Bastiodon and Golem with Drain Punch and Earthquake. Drain Punch also provides recovery beyond recovery with Leftovers.
  19. Zebraiken

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    Nothing in your post suggests to me any reason why Regirock should be Mid A instead of Low A. It's sturdy, yeah, but why is that reason enough to put it in Mid A? If we were ranking stuff on bulkiness alone, Tangela would be a lot higher than it is.

    To me, Regirock seems relatively sound in Low A. It's a great pivot, although susceptible to Golurk, and works as a catch-all to a lot of threats. However, it's kinda weak without investment (even with), and is worn down really easily by hazards + attacks from the various things it's supposed to deal with, thanks to no recovery outside of Leftovers (Drain Punch is not reliable recovery). Regirock is a solid Pokemon, but I don't think it has any particular reason to go higher than Low A.
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  20. Brawlfest

    Brawlfest BANNEDDEUCERIMO
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    I hate to go back to the above topic, but upon further testing I do believe Zangoose is not fit for S-Rank, but rather Top-A. While it is undeniably one of the strongest sweepers and most relaible wallbreakers in the current state of the metagame, it is simply too predictable. The fact that it has 0 versatility, and you always know what it is going to do puts it in a position similar to Sawk in my heart, where in theory it is good enough for S Rank, but its ability to only complete 1 niche simply makes it overly predictable. For this reason I suggest to keep it in A.

    Has anybody tested out Regice or Muk recently? So good. :]
  21. noobcubed

    noobcubed

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    Kangaskhan has basically one niche, as a revenge-killer exploiting its access to Fake Out and Sucker Punch. It's still S rank material. Though I agree with A rank for Zangoose to be honest, because it dies too fast from its own poison, making it a little unreliable as your opponent can stall out those turns with smart switching and escape mostly unscathed.
  22. Brawlfest

    Brawlfest BANNEDDEUCERIMO
    is an official Team Rateris a Community Contributor

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    Do remember Kangaskhan can do other things. I for one often use the SubPunch set and occasionally the Banded one when bored. It even has a defensive route which SweetJesus I think used to use, utilizing either WishProtect or RestTalk w/ Early Bird. Overall, Kangaskhan while shines in a single niche, is able to reliably perform other sets. Zangoose on the other hand, simply cannot do anything outside of what it currently does, no questions asked.
  23. scorpdestroyer

    scorpdestroyer is a pious radio
    is a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon

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    I don't think it's the lack of versatility that keeps Zangoose down. One criterion for S rank is that the Pokemon can perform one role exceptionally well. I don't think it's too far fetched to argue that Zangoose does its wallbreaking-sweeping really incredibly because the opponent is under such pressure to react.

    Rather, I think the thing that stops Zangoose from moving up is the reliance on Toxic Orb. Not only does it place pressure on the Zangoose user as well - he cannot afford to continuously mispredict unlike, say, Charizard, Zangoose also requires quite a bit of team support because it's almost mandatory to have one or two slow Volt Switchers and the like.

    I just wanted to point out that one-dimensionalness isn't a reason not to include something in S-rank. Sawk isn't up there because of its reliance on choice items and its STABs to do hefty damage, while Zangoose is because of Toxic Orb.

    Funny how both of these are broken af in the theoretical XY NU
  24. Aladyyn

    Aladyyn

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    I'd like to do some suggestions for S-rank.

    Top S
    [​IMG] Arguably the biggest offensive threat in the meta atm. Specs KOs basically everything, one of the fastest scarfers, wrecks its standard switchins with the SD set etc.

    [​IMG] The other big offensive threat, unpredictable, incredibly powerful, kind of slow, but has STAB priority that makes up for it.

    Mid S
    [​IMG] Same old.

    Low S
    [​IMG] Same deal as Mushy, still really good at what it does, although it's possible it's not quite good enough for S anymore

    [​IMG] Ludi benefits a lot from Jynx's and Pede's absence, it's incredibly hard to wall, rain is still under the radar. Sort of predictable, but even then very hard to deal with.

    [​IMG] Mandi is a beast. Best stallbreaker, great physical wall or a bulky pivot for offensive teams. With Jynx gone it's got one less thing to worry about and can wreck stuff. SR weakness still hurts though :/.


    So, what are peoples' thoughts on S-rank, seeing as it seems to be in somewhat of a limbo?
  25. noobcubed

    noobcubed

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    Here's an S rank candidate nobody has mentioned yet: Braviary. The Bulk Up set is so dangerous that a Pokemon's viability can go up a rank just from countering it. The Banded and Scarfed sets are great too: CB 2HKOs everything bar Metang, which has disappeared without a trace now Jynx has gone, and Scarf is also much better now that Scarf Jynx isn't everywhere to revenge-kill it. U-turn also means that it doesn't suffer from being locked into a move as often as Sawk does.

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