Lower Tiers BW NU Viability Rankings

[Punchshroom]

Carracosta's speed is what sets it apart from most other setup sweepers, and it's not a good thing either. This limits how much Carracosta can switch out to set up again later in the game (basically almost no chance). Carracosta also has a quirky speed tier: it's fast enough to outspeed a good portion after +2 with maximum speed, but sacrifices notable bulk as a result, not to mention its setup move further reduces its bulk. That combined with the lack of initial speed means Costa will have to take 2 hits against faster opponents, which will matter even if their attacks don't hurt that much at first (ex: I can't switch Costa into unboosted Samurott's Waterfall, which 3HKOes, without taking yet another before Costa can even move; if I bring in Costa on a double switch/KO, Costa can take the Waterfall well enough to Smash, but its -1 Defense leaves it more vulnerable to Aqua Jet). These traits combined limit the amount of opponents Costa can setup on, as even a poke with only 100 base Attack and 80 base power STAB is still not considered easy setup fodder despite what Costa's great defense would imply.

And then there's the part you missed where I'm no longer arguing for Carracosta going to A-Rank, good day sir.

 

[watashi]

if you're not arguing against carracosta then why are you still going on about this

 

[Raseri]

Ok carracosta discussion is killing this thread. We have a consensus among nu leaders on this, and I trust their opinions much more than the opposition. No more carracosta discussion on either side, it is just shitting up this thread so much.

 

[Ewil]

Reporting what i said before the re-start of the Carracosta topic:

On the argument to introducing something new on the table, i would propose Munchlax for the B-Rank. In my opinion he should stays in the same tier as Lickilicky since he can sponge special hits better and he has a more reliable phazing move in Whirlwind. Lickilicky has other options like using Heal Bell and the Wish-Protect combo, or he can go offensive with the Sub-SD set (well, Munchlax can use a Curse set too, but is a bit tricky), but the fact remains that Munchlax can sponge more hits and counters setup-special-sweeper better and his Restalk set is really useful especially is if paired with an Heal Bell user (Pivot Musharna can sponge Fight-moves and physical hits while healing his Sleep Status for example)

EDIT: yeah ! forgot about Thick Fat ability that gives Munchlax more resistance while Lickilicky has 2 abilities that are very situationals (Own Tempo pratically prevents only Swagger and the occasional confuse ray while Cloud Nine negate some effects in the case you encouter a weather team)

 

[Punchshroom]

As far as Normal-type sponges go, Munchlax is....decent at its job. Its greatest competitors are Lickilicky and Miltank, both of whom share Body Slam and Curse, as well as having access to the marvelous Heal Bell and Leftovers, so already it's not looking good for Munchlax.

Licklicky is similiar in that its recovery also takes up 2 moveslots and it can phaze, albeit with Dragon Tail which is stopped by Substitute as opposed to Taunt and is less accurate. However, Wish and Heal Bell are fantastic support options for a team to have, whereas Munchlax ironically enough wants Heal Bell support if not using Sleep Talk alongside Rest. Lickilicky also boasts some dangerous attacking options in Swords Dance, Power Whip and STAB Explosion, allowing to threaten things while still sporting bulk. While Munchlax has some strong attacks in its own right, but it is slower than anything and lacks Swords Dance, with the nail in the coffin being that its STAB Selfdestruct is outright outshowed by STAB Explosion. :(

Miltank has the most reliable recovery of the three (as opposed to Lax's least reliable), and boasts insane speed for a wall. Miltank shares Thick Fat with Lax, so it generally can take the same kind of abuse Lax can, and is more focused on physical defense than special defense. Unlike Munchlax, Miltank isn't reliant on Thick Fat, she has 2 other abilities that affect how you play against her: Sap Sipper deters Grass attacks while Scrappy means Ghosts do not have the privelege of switching in for free. Heck, Scrappy alone gives Miltank the edge in mono-attacking sets, especially Curse sets, with Heal Bell and Milk Drink being better move options than RestTalk. Miltank's abilities are the most annoying aspect of her, as you can't easily reveal her ability without suffering for it, and are a big factor on the effectiveness of offensive or defensive Miltank sets. She gets Stealth Rock too, which is a rare move to find on a non-Rock or Steel type, but cannot phaze foes.

Munchlax's niche over the two is its greater overall bulk and access to Pursuit (though it has no room for it on RestTalk sets), meaning it is one of the better switch-ins to Haunter, Kadabra and Jynx (it takes Focus Blast better than the other two Normal sponges). However, Munchlax risks being deadweight if forced out while asleep, thus cleric support is near mandatory to allow it to function well. I'd give it a C-Rank because while it faces stiff competition, it's not bad at its job, which is to ward off almost any special attacker to decent success but struggles due to lack of reliable recovery and achieves nothing more outside that role.

 

[Jajub123]

C rank Pokemon tend to face competition from the more commonly used Pokemon.

I definitely agree with what Puncheoom said about Munchlax but I disagree with where you place him. Munchlax can sponge a lot of the common special attacks. But as stated before Lax really doesn't have a more general niche as Licking or Miltank typically outshine it.

Muchlax also suffers from requiring Cleric and/or Wish support from other teammates. With only rest Lax needs support to alleviate sleep. Also since Lax doesn't have reliable recovery opponents can whittle it down before a devastating blow.

Lax also. doesn't have the luxury of Pettiest or Heal Bell. Licking and Milk both get these which create some stiff competition.

But Munchlax has a niche in the form of a trapper with pursuit which can act as a psuedo Skuntank except for it has WAY better bulk.

All in all Lax has a notable niche but requires some team support to be effect. So I opt Munchlax for C rank.

 

[GOthee]

I say that Munchlax deserves rank C. He is really good vs Special attackers but he lacks other things such as reliable recovery and his movepool is small.

 

[Punchshroom]

if you're not arguing against carracosta then why are you still going on about this

My current questions are mainly how Carracosta is supposed to function as well as it should, and the team building issues to an extent. Perhaps giving 'A-Rank Costa' nominators (not particularly including myself) insight on how to truly utilize Carracosta would be much more helpful than shoving that S-Rank status down our throats. (Ex: I try to setup on Normals/Flyings/Fires/physical Bugs and end up taking so much damage Costa would be deadweight if I don't Smash ASAP, and this usually isn't late game!)

This is mainly why, and it has yet to be answered since this post.

Derp about Munchlax, meant for him to be C-Rank. Edited.

One thing I've noticed is Simipour showing up on B-Rank, when it wasn't even touched upon in previous discussions. Has Simipour gained more viability in this round, even though the rise of Seismitoad and Jynx's reintroduction made it harder to spam its STAB? If so, shouldn't Floatzel gain more use as well? Both have great speed, with Floatzel being notably faster and physically stronger while Simipour is a more competent special attacker. Both have Crunch to dispatch of Jynx, and while Floatzel doesn't KO Seismitoad anywhere near as fast as Simipour's Grass Knot, a set of Taunt + Bulk Up can actually turn the tables on the standard Scald + Earthquake + Toxic Toad, and boasts the ability to outspeed Scolipede, Kadabra and Serperior to threaten with LO Hydro Pump, Crunch or Ice Beam/Punch respectively. Both Water-types can boost and run Choice sets, but Floatzel has an extra edge in being able to Baton Pass its boosts or Switcheroo to cripple walls. I don't really know what made Simipour better this round, but if Simipour can apply for B-Rank then so can Floatzel.

 

[skylight]

Carracosta will always be a point of debate since there always will be people which can't get it to do its work.

If we don't bring it up anymore, it'll be brought up by someone else who joins in a few weeks.

However, since Carracosta stays S-rank, I'd like to get it to do its magic instead of being an excuse for Samurott to join my team. All other S-rank Pokémon did prove themselves to me in the past as I used most of them, but Carracosta only failed me. But appearantly, you guys consider it a very good mon, up to the best in NU. As a result, I have a question, how can I get Carracosta to do its magic (I assume it doesn't need Dual Screen support according to those who are adamant about it being S-rank, but then, what else and how to create set up oppertunities) ?

This question isn't really suited to here since it's for debates regarding viability and not how to make a Pokemon work for you, which is why I just made a fresh new Carracosta thread where you and everyone else new can discuss/debate how good Carracosta is instead of doing it here. :3

 

[Jajub123]

One thing I've noticed is Simipour showing up on B-Rank, when it wasn't even touched upon in previous discussions. Has Simipour gained more viability in this round, even though the rise of Seismitoad and Jynx's reintroduction made it harder to spam its STAB? If so, shouldn't Floatzel gain more use as well? Both have great speed, with Floatzel being notably faster and physically stronger while Simipour is a more competent special attacker. Both have Crunch to dispatch of Jynx, and while Floatzel doesn't KO Seismitoad anywhere near as fast as Simipour's Grass Knot, a set of Taunt + Bulk Up can actually turn the tables on the standard Scald + Earthquake + Toxic Toad, and boasts the ability to outspeed Scolipede, Kadabra and Serperior to threaten with LO Hydro Pump, Crunch or Ice Beam/Punch respectively. Both Water-types can boost and run Choice sets, but Floatzel has an extra edge in being able to Baton Pass its boosts or Switcheroo to cripple walls. I don't really know what made Simipour better this round, but if Simipour can apply for B-Rank then so can Floatzel.

On terms of why Floatzel isn't in the same tier as Simipor I think it comes off of several qualities.

On of the first ones being that Simipour has really good coverage (I.e. acrobatics and waterfall). Simipour can easily take care of Scolipede and Primeape and stuff like that. It can also dispose of Jynx through out speeding it and landing a KO through a strong physical move such as Crunch. Floatzel suffers from a lack of moves and its movepool is p barren.

About the strategy you mentioned Bulk Up is really only used to boost its attack and make it less susceptible to priority. If a competent player got their Seismitoad taunted like in the scenario you suggested they'll probably switch to a strong attacker on Bulk Up (like Servine) and can the to proceed to OHKO.

Floatzel can't really set up due to it's appalling defenses which are extremely low even by NU standards. So really the only "viable" sets are Choice sets as they both use Floatzel's great speed and attack.

I also really don't think that Simipour should be in B rank either. It's really hard to obtain a NP boost and when you do you'll probably be low on health and get revenged killed or die to LO recoil. So basically Simipour and Floatzel are in thesame boat more or less. So I think that Simipour and Floatzel should both be in C rank.

 

[Punchshroom]

Your argument that Simipour has great coverage is mitigated by the fact that Floatzel also has respectable coverage and achieves the same KOes without necessarily needing to hit threats SE, with LO Hydro Pump drowning Scolipede and Primeape, the former of which it outspeeds while Pour fails to. I've also noticed you mentioned Crunch on Pour to KO Jynx yet made no mention of Floatzel doing exactly the same, which made me question if you even bothered to look up Floatzel extensively before making your argument.

The defense boost is actually very crucial as it allows Floatzel to set up more Bulk Ups for its teammates or itself to use. Had Floatzel learned something like Howl / Work Up instead of Bulk Up I wouldn't even consider it. Baton Pass is also a large factor of Bulk Up Floatzel's success, as it allows Floatzel to evade threats without wasting the boosts.

The only "viable" Floatzel sets are Choiced sets? Have you even tried Life Orb, which can utilise its good coverage? The main draw of Bulk Up is that, along with Taunt + Water Veil, allows Floatzel to set up on the very bulky Waters that wall sweeper Floatzels, meaning the luring factor alone is enough to buy Floatzel time to setup and pass / sweep.

As for their ranking, I'd like to hear the NU leaders' opinions on this before making my own decision.

 

[Jajub123]

This post will be fairly short due to the fact that I just accidentally deleted my original post. :)

First of all in the beginning of my post I said "I think". I'm stating my opinion and if you disagree with it then so be it.

Note that I'm replying to your post so I'm assuming thank you know that Floatzel gets Crunch.

Also note the quotations on viable. All that I'm saying is that Choice sets are one of the main draws to Floatzel and therefore doesn't let people know how flexible Floatzel can be.

Taunt+BU+BP can be effective in some situations if it manages to lure the hypothetical Seismitoad or other pokes but it can really only can get one boost before it passes it. The reciprocant will also have an immediate disadvantage due to the other Pokemon being able to act against you. Also Floatzel fails to outshine some of NU's premier BP-ers.

Also your response goes WAY off topic. I was stating my opinion on Simipour's advantages that might lead it to being B rank (I even said they should be in the same tier). I wasn't making a statement that Floatzel is overall really bad. So J really don't get why you're so angry about this.

 

[Punchshroom]

God, why does everyone assume I'm angry whenever I argue for a pokemon's case (I'm angry now)? I just initially found your claim that 'Floatzel's movepool is bad' to be odd when Simipour's isn't that much greater, and simply elaborated on the options Floatzel can run, making it more versatile than it seems. We've acknowledged that much, so it's all good.

Final note, I wouldn't say Floatzel is outshone by other BPers. He may not have a solid place on full BP teams, but as a stand-alone BPer he's pretty decent and boasts certain advantages over other BPers, namely Taunt over Ninjask, speed over Mr. Mime, and no other poke in NU besides Mienfoo lol can Baton Pass Bulk Ups, and most physical sweepers would like the bulk alongside the power boost.

 

[Jajub123]

About your claim with Floatzel being usefully on BP teams I can definitely agree with you on that. It can add that extra defenestration's needed and is very fast. It can also apply offensives pressure whereas something like Mawile cannot. The only issue I really see with it is that since it only can run one attacking move it'll probably run Waterfall which means something like Jynx is an easy counter. It gives Floatzel no opportunity to set up as it can set up itself with sub NP or KO with STAB Psychic (CS variants even outspeed!). That being said with Jynx being a counter to BP variants (and all with CS) that also may explain why it's C rank (but that doesn't make sense for Simipour).

Just a little note people may assume you're angry due to the way your se fences are structured. Since it's almost impossible to derive expression from a computer directly we take past experiences and use those. For example when you were posing questions that's only happened to me when somebody was angry so I assumed you were too.

 

[Raseri]

Gurdurr is movin on up


Changes:

Gurdurr up to A from B

Lairon and Munchlax will remain where they are.

I'm not completely sure on Floatzel at the moment. I kind of have Aasgier syndrome with it, I just don't like it without having a good reason. I have personally never been able to make it work, but I have seen it used to great success by other battlers. So as of right now I am not opposed to moving it to B-rank, or dropping Simipour to C. But I would like to see a bit more discussion before I make a call.


Another suggestion I have is to move Tropius to C-rank instead of D-rank. Tropius has really cool typing that allows it to take on a lot of physical attackers in the tier, and can run a subseed sitrus set akin to Exeggutor. It has comparable bulk to Exeggutor, just a different typing and not as much immediate power. I have used it to great success on a few teams now, and it's ability to act as a pivot for certain types of teams is great. So if anyone else has used Tropius, feel free to chime in!

 

[Axa]

I'm not entirely sure on Tropius - Grass/Flying is a mixed bag. It gives it an immunity as as well as a Fighting resistance (which is very helpful) and neutralises a weakness to Bug. On the other hand, it becomes SR weak, loses its resistance to Elecitrc and crumbles after Ice attacks.

I don't think its Subseed set is quite as good as Exeggutor, but even so it's still really good. My only concern is that its speed and average power holds it back from doing any kind of offensive sweeping - Simisage is a better choice even if you want to use a Flying attack. I'm not opposed to it being C-rank because it's a decent bulky pivot, but I'm not sure it can do much else beyond that.

 

[No Luck Involved]

Another Pokémon I noticed was Leafeon down in D-rank. It has decent speed, power and good physical bulk. Grass and Normal is also good coverage in NU. It may be outclassed in some departments but that doesn't mean it isn't usable. Its typing also means it can even use a half decent defensive set with phazing, Wish and Heal Bell.

It's a competent sweeper imo with enough qualities to offer something reliable and useful to teams (it's on another level compared to most of the D-rank mons imo). I think it should be C-rank as a starting point.

 

[Punchshroom]

My original question was what Simipour is doing in B-Rank when no one even mentioned anything when it was C-Rank in the old rankings. Its special sets are walled hard by Ludicolo and the super dangerous Jynx so it's less effective than before, and the physical/mixed sets' only real advantage over the faster Floatzel and stronger Basculin are Torrent and Acrobatics (Basculin gets Endeavor too!). Is there something it does better in this meta now?

Leafeon has really solid stats for an Eeveelution (arguably my favorite of the bunch), and I think it can stand a shot at C-Rank. It has not one, but two methods of recovery, meaning it can put its very high Defense to good use, support the team with Heal Bell and/or Wish, and even retaliate well with STAB Leaf Blade, making for a solid defensive Grass-type. Too bad it's Special Defense is bad (unlike Meganium or Vileplume), competes with Tangela, and is threatened by so many things, particularly Scolipede, Jynx, Swellow and the steady increase of Fire pokemon / moves.

Sweeping Leafeon has the highest Attack stat of all physical Grasses (barely edging out Torterra), and while its STAB isn't as strong, it's still fast, or at least fast enough with 95 base Speed. It has more than enough bulk to tank a hit, Swords Dance, and wipe out the opposition, something Sawsbuck struggles at. However, it still faces competition with the deer, who has better coverage and Normal STAB in exchange for much less powerful Grass STAB and bulk. Leafeon's coverage is also not as good as Torterra, who can pummel many pokemon with its dual STABs and/or Stone Edge, and packs a Rock resist & Electric immunity, but Leafeon can still come in on most Water and Grass attacks more comfortably and setup.

Leafeon I feel is too good for D-Rank, it does its jobs well enough to not be outclassed by fellow Grass-types, at worst competing with them. C-Rank for Leafeon <3

 

[watashi]

i agree with leafeon for c-rank. before sawsbuck was in the tier, i recall it being one of the top, if not the best, physical sweeping grass-types in the tier. it has excellent physical bulk, attack, and decent speed, but is largely outclassed by sawsbuck currently, which means it probably shouldn't go any higher.

 

[vilepersian]

I agree with Metang being A

I used to play with my 3 fave pokemon, plus 3 others.
After replacing the worst of my fave pokemon (Persian) with Metang my ranking went up almost 200 positions.

my has bullet punch, meteor smash, toxic and zen headbutt (and eviolite obviously)

Things it does:
-Walls psychic pokemon completely, and it is also good for resisting normal and flying pokemon which often have the boosted facade, the bullet punch lets you get one last hit.

-its attack isnt that strong, but often the fast pokemon with great attacks are very frail.

-some rock types like cradily and armaldo do get hurt a lot by meteor smash

-it checks jynx if it doesnt get put to sleep

-zen headbutt generally takes over 50% of the hp of fighting types, and I think the earthquake of Sawk takes less than 50% of the hp of Metang

-with the exception of Bastiodon and probopass it can use toxic on the pokemon that wall it like Alomomola.

 

[Infernis]

CB Sawk's Earthquake will deal 52-61% to Metang, a pretty solid 2HKO even before rocks.

0 Atk Metang Zen Headbutt vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Sawk: 170-204 (58.41 - 70.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 Atk Metang Bullet Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Sawk: 43-52 (14.77 - 17.86%) -- possible 6HKO
That's 73.18 - 87.96% over two turns. Practically guaranteed with three layers of spikes, a decent chance with any amount of hazards. A little bit of attack investment goes a long way here, but you probably don't want to compromise on bulk.

I haven't used Metang much lately, but I could see A-Rank being a good spot from seeing it on opposing teams. It's a right bastard to take down.

 

[Jajub123]

I also agree with Matang being in A rank. Metanv is a premier Jynx counter of the tier and it's Eviolite boosted defenses are insane. Metang can fulfilled a variety of supportive roles such as a SR lead or a physical/special wall. It can also act as a tank because due to its great typing it sports a variety of resistances. Metang also has priority in the form of Bullet Punch to pick off weakened targets. One of Metang's major weaknesses is lack of reliable recovery but ghat can be fixed by adding a Pokemon such as Alomomola to the team that resist both of Metang's weaknesses (I've never seen EQ be a 2HKO lol) and can provide Wish support. All in all I opt Metang for A rank.

 

[skylight]

Pokemon such as Alomomola to the team that resist both of Metang's weaknesses

Alomomola doesn't resist Ground-type attacks. However, what it is able to do is take Ground-type attacks well. Although if it's had significant prior damage it's not the best switch in, so versus CB Golurk for example, it isn't going to come out best if it's been sent in to take a few hits before. Also fire attacks are mostly special in this tier, and most Pokemon with fire attacks have a way of using Grass-type or Electric-type attacks (or at least the more common ones) so Alomomola doesn't necessarily come out best as it's best at physically walling things.

Anyway um, Metang is already A-rank (since before the post mentioning Metang was posted), so...

 

[Jajub123]

Alomomola doesn't resist Ground-type attacks. However, what it is able to do is take Ground-type attacks well. Although if it's had significant prior damage it's not the best switch in, so versus CB Golurk for example, it isn't going to come out best if it's been sent in to take a few hits before. Also fire attacks are mostly special in this tier, and most Pokemon with fire attacks have a way of using Grass-type or Electric-type attacks (or at least the more common ones) so Alomomola doesn't necessarily come out best as it's best at physically walling things.

Anyway um, Metang is already A-rank (since before the post mentioning Metang was posted), so...

Um...did you read my whole post? I said that I've never seen an EQ be a 2HKO before...so really the first part of your post wasn't neccesary. Also for a Fire resist I'm saying that it does wall physical fire types. And even if it was a special Fire type you could use Alomomola as a defensively pivot due to regenerator then switch to another poke to threaten the fire type out.

Edit: When I scanned A rank I couldn't find Metang...? (lol I missed it?)

 

[ryan]

Yeah, Leafeon is by no means a stellar Pokemon in the current metagame, but it's not so bad that it deserves D-Rank. I do think that if an offensive set was the only one it was capable of running, it would probably be D material, but the fact that it can run either a defensive support set or an offensive set to decent effect, to me, makes it C-Rank.

I won't comment on Tropius because I haven't used it in ages.