[DONE] JOHTO CLASSIC - Post your results!

[Hulavuta]

Thoughts on Scarf T-tar in this meta? It's been doing wonders for me by catching a lot of surprise kills, and Stone Edge is able to OHKO D-nite after sand damage.

Personally I found Scarf-Tar to be underwhelming. It never seems to hit when you need it to and in a lot of cases it just turned into set up fodder after revenge killing something. I don't think it's bad per se, it's just not something I like to run personally. It's a pretty good mon for beating opposing weather and revenge killing, I don't think it's the best possible Tar set though.

Edit: Another thing I dislike about Scarf-Tar is how vulnerable it makes your team to Azumarill and Clefable.

Yeah, I've been using ScarfTar on a team. It is a good check to Gengar and certain other things but it does kill a ton of your momentum. You need good partners to switch in for common stuff that wants to take advantage of Tyranitar getting locked in, like Venusaur to help deal with Azumarill and Quagsire and such. Haven't tried many other sets yet but I think Mixed Tyranitar could do a few things. Might even try Assault Vest, lol.



By the way, TheMantyke what do you think about Venusaur as a decent counter-lead to Machamp? It outspeeds and can neuter it with Sleep Powder right?

 

[Moose And Goose]

Personally I've found after a few games that unaware Clefable can be pretty amazing. It absolutely destroys Dragonite and T-tar so far. In fact I've been able to take out a few other common setup sweepers such as Azumarill (belly drum especially) and Raikou. In fact I've seen one of these four pokemon on almost every single team.
Here's the set if anyone is wondering:

Clefable @ Rocky Helmet
Abillity: Unaware
Evs: 248HP/252Def/8SpAtk
Bold Nature
-Moonblast
-Flamethrower
-Wish
-Protect

This is a fairly standard set but it has been effective at beating a lot of setup sweepers as some keep trying to set up on it, most of which proceed to faint. I have been considering replacing wish and protect with softboiled and thunderbolt to beat azumarill a bit easier.

 

[The Squash]

Very early impression of this metagame is that Sheer Cold Suicune isn't as dominate as I expected. Don't get me wrong: I still think its a huge threat! Its just that with Raikou, Zapdos, and Magneton being extremely common, I've actually found it to be sorta difficult to get it in and spam Sheer Cold. I want to say this reminds me of how Mega Salamence needs support to work in Battle Spot Singles to be honest: Its damn good, but just slapping it on a team won't work! I imagine any team that really wants to take advantage of Suicune is gonna need stuff like Tyranitar and a good Ground-type to take care of all the Electric-types flying around right now.

Also much like Mega Salamence, I do think Suicune will have a counter measure to these checks. In this case: The Assualt Vest set! I think it runs something like Scald / Ice Beam / Mirror Coat / Sheer Cold. The basic idea is: use Mirror Coat to defeat stuff that tries to Thunderbolt you! Just watch out though: Sub Calm Mind Raikou busts through this, and there is the off chance that someone might see the Mirror Coat coming and Volt Switch to Tyranitar.

Also, Venusaur has been fantastic for me so far. Despite both sharing an Ice weakness, I've found that its a great Dragonite teammate, since Venusaur slams Quagsire and Clefable, its two biggest problems, and also checks the deadly Azumarill. It also isn't shabby against Suicune as long as you watch out for Sheer Cold. And, like Kanto Classic, Venusaur is by far the best spreader of sleep around! Oddly, I've been using a fast set with Hidden Power Ice to surprise Dragonite, but Nelson Tangela was talking about using a Quiet one with Earthquake to defeat Raikou, and DTC has been using Leaf Storm for more damage.

Finally, on the topic of Machamp: Yeah despite Heracross giving it some competition, this thing is still excellent. The sash set is awesome, but I myself have been using a Choice Band set with Guts. A lot of people like to Will-O-Wisp Machamp with Gengar (or to a lesser extent, Arcanine), and its great to take advantage of that! Plus, it allows you to dodge Sheer Colds, which has won me some match-ups against Suicune before!

From all I've played on showdown (about 20 battles) not a single sheer cold suicune was used against me.

On the subject of Machamp, choice band machamp hits hard. Not much can take a dynamic punch without consequences. I might try it out with guts and see how it fairs.

Another pokemon I found to be good is Ninetails. Running it with drought really helps it counter many of its checks thanks to solarbeam. Fire blast under the sun really punchs holes through teams. It's main counters are Tyranitar and Politoed due to them changing the weather but neither should be switched in due to the risk of being KOed by solarbeam.

 

[Nelson Tangela]

From all I've played on showdown (about 20 battles) not a single sheer cold suicune was used against me.

On the subject of Machamp, choice band machamp hits hard. Not much can take a dynamic punch without consequences. I might try it out with guts and see how it fairs.

Another pokemon I found to be good is Ninetails. Running it with drought really helps it counter many of its checks thanks to solarbeam. Fire blast under the sun really punchs holes through teams. It's main counters are Tyranitar and Politoed due to them changing the weather but neither should be switched in due to the risk of being KOed by solarbeam.

Politoed and Tyranitar want to switch in on a Ninetales that is trying to Solarbeam. They would love to do that, because their Abilities would overwrite the sunshine... force Ninetales to charge the Solarbeam and weaken it's power in the process... and most importantly trap the Ninetales for a turn, which allows them to kill it with a rain-boosted Water-type move or a Rock-type move. This would win them the weather war and remove sun for the rest of the game.

 

[The Squash]

Politoed and Tyranitar want to switch in on a Ninetales that is trying to Solarbeam. They would love to do that, because their Abilities would overwrite the sunshine... force Ninetales to charge the Solarbeam and weaken it's power in the process... and most importantly trap the Ninetales for a turn, which allows them to kill it with a rain-boosted Water-type move or a Rock-type move. This would win them the weather war and remove sun for the rest of the game.

Right. Don't know how I forgot that. Is a Ninetails fully invested in speed able to outspeed either of them? Because that might mean it could KO them before they can attack.

 

[Nelson Tangela]

Right. Don't know how I forgot that. Is a Ninetails fully invested in speed able to outspeed either of them? Because that might mean it could KO them before they can attack.

Ninetales is faster than both of those, but Solarbeam's power is halved in the sand/rain, which means that you'd be using a move with a base power of 60, that doesn't get boosted by your own type and takes two turns to execute. Tyranitar also gets a Special Defense boost during a sandstorm. There is just no way that Ninetales could deal threatening damage to either of them with a Solarbeam in this scenario.

 

[Hulavuta]

Yeah, Solar Beam is not really a good option against Tyranitar or Politoed. One thing that could be cool is a set from Gen 5 OU, which may or may not work here. But it basically entails using Sunny Day Ninetales and using Sunny Day on a predicted weather starter switch. It is a really baller move and can catch people by surprise. It gets the momentum back on your side, and at that point you actually can Solar Beam a Politoed or Tyranitar, but I still don't know if it can OHKO tbh.

Ninetales seems like it'll take a lot of work to get going, but with Chlorophyll Venusaur as a partner it can be a serious threat. Maybe switching out to Venusaur at that point rather than using Solar Beam would be a better move.

 

[ProjectTitan313]

As a huge abuser of Ninetales in the BW2 era, I can say a few things:
1) Sunny Day is shit, don't bother. Even in Sun TTar really does not give a fuck. Toed is hardly annoyed, and Ninetales' Sp. Atk is such garbage that it fails to KO it.
2) Shuca Berry + WoW Ninetales is actually good; give me a while and I can ressurect my old spread.
3) Energy Ball also works, gets most of the same 2HKOs without the horror of a TTar switchin.

Might bring back the old core since it was all Kanto mons anyway. :P

 

[Vengeance417]

Here we have the new Johto Classic Role Compendium! I migrated the old Kanto Classic Role Compendium I made to our new Johto Classic thread and updated it to reflect the current metagame as best as I could on my first iteration. It's still a WIP and will continue to be updated as the metagame develops. I removed a lot of the Pokemon that were on the Kanto Classic version of this Compendium that I felt were either outclassed by some of the new Johto Pokemon or simply don't fit in the 3v3 environment as opposed to the 6v6 format of the previous tournament.

Set-up Sweepers:
Calm Mind:

Dragon Dance:

Swords Dance:

Nasty Plot:

Rock Polish:

Quiver Dance:

Chlorophyll:

Swift Swim:

Curse:

Minimize:

Shell Smash:

Belly Drum:

Moody:

Priority users:
Extremespeed:

(Transfer only)

Sucker Punch:

(Transfer Only)

(Transfer Only)

(Transfer Only)

Aqua Jet:

Bullet Punch:

Fake Out:

Mach Punch:

Ice Shard:

Good Custap Berry users:

Stallbreakers:
Taunt:

Disable:

Encore:

OHKO Moves:
Fissure:

Sheer Cold:

(Transfer Only)

Horn Drill:

Status users:
Thunder Wave:

Will-o-Wisp:

Sleep:
Spore:

(with Assist support)
Sleep Powder:

Hypnosis:

Weather setters:
Drought:

Drizzle:

Sand Stream:

Volt Turn:
Volt Switch:

U-Turn:

Trappers:
Arena Trap:

Magnet Pull:

Block/Mean Look + Perish Song:

Shadow Tag:

Mirror Coat/Counter
Mirror Coat:

Counter:

Baton Pass:

Eviolite users (one per team due to item clause):

Azumarill checks:

Defensive:

Offensive:

Dragonite checks:

Defensive:

Offensive:

 

[ProjectTitan313]

Please remove Chansey from the Wish list. It's been pointed out over and over again for years and years that it isn't even remotely possible to get a vaguely useful, questionable-at-best legal Wish Chansey. You MUST hack it. And we really shouldn't promote hacks.
It exists only on simulator, and people wouldn't even know about the stupid thing if it wasn't for simulators. Kangaskhan and other barely-existent Wishmons just shouldn't be mentioned.

That said, Umbreon would be a good addition to Wish and Cleric.
Forretress also gets Volt Switch and can reasonably use it to escape Magneton switchins as well.

 

[Vengeance417]

Please remove Chansey from the Wish list. It's been pointed out over and over again for years and years that it isn't even remotely possible to get a vaguely useful, questionable-at-best legal Wish Chansey. You MUST hack it. And we really shouldn't promote hacks.
It exists only on simulator, and people wouldn't even know about the stupid thing if it wasn't for simulators. Kangaskhan and other barely-existent Wishmons just shouldn't be mentioned.

That said, Umbreon would be a good addition to Wish and Cleric.
Forretress also gets Volt Switch and can reasonably use it to escape Magneton switchins as well.

Edited. Thanks :)

 

[Nelson Tangela]

Edited. Thanks :)

- add Raikou to Calm Mind users
- add Smeargle to Spore users
- (add Sneasel to Spore users. I've seen a few Assist Sneasel + Spore Smeargle teams that are very threatening, if you're not prepared for it)
- add Magneton to trappers (Sturdy is good, but Magnet Pull has it's uses since Magneton isn't the only Steel-type anymore)

These are the obvious ones that are missing imo.

I also think that a bunch of stuff that is listed here, is not viable at all. 3vs3 with items is a lot more offensive and faster than Kanto Classic ever was. Defensive/passive tactics do not work nearly as well.

PS: Baton Pass deserves it's own section.

EDIT: add Misdreavus to Perish Trappers

 

[Psynergy]

To that end, I'd also note that pretty much anything related to hazards and hazard control is rarely worth it in 3v3 outside of Stealth Rock (which I doubt will be a staple either given it isn't in BSS). Hazard control and Spikes/Toxic Spikes are basically wasted moveslots in regular Battle Spot Singles since games are typically too fast to make effective use of them and you're almost always better off attacking than using a turn to remove hazards. I don't imagine Johto Classic will be much different in that regard.

 

[Vengeance417]

Alright, I removed most of the hazard control section and left Stealth Rock in its own section. Added what needed to be added. I'm considering removing the clerics section altogether. Thanks for the help guys :)

 

[The Squash]

I would also add wobbuffet to the list of trappers and encore users. It also might help to have a list of mirror coat and counter users.
Thanks for making such a helpful list!

 

[3heartschall]

Here we have the new Johto Classic Role Compendium! I migrated the old Kanto Classic Role Compendium I made to our new Johto Classic thread and updated it to reflect the current metagame as best as I could on my first iteration. It's still a WIP and will continue to be updated as the metagame develops. I removed a lot of the Pokemon that were on the Kanto Classic version of this Compendium that I felt were either outclassed by some of the new Johto Pokemon or simply don't fit in the 3v3 environment as opposed to the 6v6 format of the previous tournament.
Set-up Sweepers:
Calm Mind:

Dragon Dance:

Swords Dance:

Nasty Plot:

Rock Polish:

Quiver Dance:

Chlorophyll:

Swift Swim:

Curse:

Minimize:

Shell Smash:

Belly Drum:

Stealth Rock:

Priority users:
Extremespeed:

(Transfer only)

Sucker Punch:

(Transfer Only)

(Transfer Only)

Aqua Jet:

Bullet Punch:

Fake Out:

Mach Punch:

Phasers:
Roar:

Whirlwind:

Stallbreakers:
Taunt:

Disable:

Encore:

OHKO Moves:
Fissure:

Sheer Cold:

(Transfer Only)

Guillotine:

Horn Drill:

Status users:
Thunder Wave:

Will-o-Wisp:

Sleep:
Spore:

(with Assist support)
Sleep Powder:

Hypnosis:

Weather setters:
Drought:

Drizzle:

Sand Stream:

Volt Turn:
Volt Switch:

U-Turn:

Stat Boost Removers:
Clear Smog:

Trappers:
Arena Trap:

Magnet Pull:

Block/Mean Look + Perish Song:

Clerics:
Heal Bell/Aromatherapy:

Wish:

Healing Wish:

Baton Pass:

- Add Prankster Perish/Mean Look Murkrow.
I'll edit if I see anything else.

 

[orangeflood]

I trying to only use Johto mons for fun. After quick testing, my main 3 are band crobat, scizor, and ff scarf houndoom.

 

[Omastar68]

Why was this announced so much closer to the time of the comp, unlike Kanto Classic? If there was more prep time I might play.

Even so, I think I can add stuff. Quagsire is super cool with just one weakness and Unaware to ignore all those yucky stat boosters which are everywhere. I also think it should be added to Encore users.

I think Typhlosion could be viable. Besides being a fun mob, it's one of the very few Eruption mons, and has a pretty good movepool. Stats are fairly decent, even bulk is far from the worst, and Ofc Flash Fire.

Miltank is another relatively niche non I think could see use. Good stats all around, reliable recovery, and Ofc a good movepool cuz it's normal.

 

[Vengeance417]

I would also add wobbuffet to the list of trappers and encore users. It also might help to have a list of mirror coat and counter users.
Thanks for making such a helpful list!

No problem! :D

Added Wobb as well as the Mirror Coat/Counter section.

 

[Moose And Goose]

Another possible sleep powder user could be jumpluff. While it doesn't have the best offensive stats it still might be viable because of its great speed stat.

 

[a0161613]

Another possible sleep powder user could be jumpluff. While it doesn't have the best offensive stats it still might be viable because of its great speed stat.

I'm using one. It has to be sashed. I believe it was Hulavuta who called it a cheap Whimsicott when I battled him earlier.

Whimsi is insulted by that.

 

[Omastar68]

I'm using one. It has to be sashed. I believe it was Hulavuta who called it a cheap Whimsicott when I battled him earlier.

Whimsi is insulted by that.

That's kind of an exaggeration tho. Here there's no Talon to completely wreck Jumpluff, and Jump at least has asleep Powder, while Whimsi has only the even more inaccurate Grasswhistle. Not that they'd be competing with each other here Ofc.

It also has other neat moves like Memento, Cotton Guard, Reflect, Leech Seed, Encore, etc. A lot like Whimsi lol, tho sadly mostly worse. It does have more special bulk tho.

 

[TheMantyke]

Here's some cool stuff Nelson Tangela and I played around with today:

Piloswine @ Eviolite
Ability: Thick Fat
Level: 50
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Earthquake
- Ice Shard
- Avalanche / Icicle Spear
- Fissure / Stealth Rock / Freeze Dry

This thing is a great answer to Zapdos and Raikou lacking HP Ice / Aura Sphere and beats Dragonite. It tanks HP Ice and Heat Wave for days, can usually stomach two HP Grass or Raikou's aura sphere from two non boosting item electrics, and take one HP Grass or Aura Sphere from LO / Specs electrics. Vs Dnite, it can switch in and nearly always KO it (If they outrage immediately, you have a 22% chance to die. If you wanna live 88% of the time, you can invest 12 EVs in defense. If you always want to live, invest 44 Defense). Use Avalanche and if they attack you, they die through multi scale. If they don't attack and DD or something else, you like a +4 Extreme Speed and KO it with Ice Shard. The first three moves are self explanatory. The last one has minor uses and is pretty flexible. Use Fissure to bust through other walls, use stealth rocks to break sashes and stuff, and freeze dry 2HKOs Quag if you hate him, even with an adamant nature and no investment.

Exeggutor @ Sitrus Berry
Ability: Harvest
Level: 50
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SpA / 4 SpD
Quiet Nature
IVs: 0 Atk / 0 Spe
- Psychic
- Giga Drain
- Sleep Powder
- Trick Room

Lots of mons are trying to be fast in this format and Exeggutor takes advantage of that nicely. It's also a nice supplementary electric answer and can sponge azu's water moves. Use TR if you're slower than everything, put things asleep, and use Giga Drain and Psychic while harvest makes sure you never fucking die. Nelson was using a Ninetails to bluff a chlorophyll set and give Eggy free sitrus basically always which worked pretty well with it.

 

[Stellar]

I'm not gonna make a huge post but CB Crobat + Specs Magneton is extremely fun and works well against most of the available Pokémon.

Magneton @ Choice Specs
Ability: Sturdy
Level: 50
EVs: 248 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk / 30 SpA
- Thunderbolt
- Flash Cannon
- Hidden Power [Grass]
- Volt Switch

Crobat @ Choice Band
Ability: Infiltrator
Level: 50
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Brave Bird
- Cross Poison
- U-turn
- Sleep Talk

outskilled (not meant to be evidence of the above)

 

[WilkoB]

I feel like Specs Lanturn could be a pretty good option since it can beat all of the other electric types 1v1 as well as being able to deal with Azumarill altho it might have difficulties with alot of other mons i'd probably run something like this:

Lanturn @ Choice Specs
Ability: Volt Absorb
Level: 50
EVs: 132 HP / 252 SpA / 124 Spe
Modest Nature
- Thunderbolt
- Volt Switch
- Scald / Hydro Pump
- Ice Beam

The speed is so that u can outspeed 252 speed adamant Azumarill,