Other ORAS OU Viability Ranking Thread V2 - Check Post #2500 PG. 100

[The Silver Sword]

I do see your point with Swoobat, but the thing with Chandelure is that due a large array of moves, it can almost find a move thats super effective against every mon (barring chansey as a wall), I see chandy as a revenge sweeper, and yes whilst it does suffer from 4MSS, in those four slots you can put 4 moves completely aimed at coverage, I'll just put these calcs out here:

252+ SpA Chandelure Energy Ball vs. 0 HP / 0- SpD Mega Diancie: 240-284 (99.5 - 117.8%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO
252+ SpA Chandelure Flamethrower vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mega Sableye: 156-184 (51.3 - 60.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Chandelure Hidden Power Fighting vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Tyranitar in Sand: 180-212 (52.7 - 62.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

EDIT:
Also forgot this one...
252+ SpA Chandelure Energy Ball vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Quagsire: 660-780 (167.5 - 197.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
And Quagsire does have an extreme type advantage.

Even one of its key threats in Priority Aqua Jet from an Azumarill (before BDrum obviously) doesn't OHKO it:
252+ Atk Huge Power Azumarill Aqua Jet vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Chandelure: 174-206 (66.6 - 78.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

~SSword.

 

[Darth Darkrai]

252+ SpA Chandelure Hidden Power Ice vs. 252 HP / 8 SpD Landorus-T: 372-440 (97.3 - 115.1%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO
252+ SpA Chandelure Hidden Power Ice vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Landorus: 376-444 (117.8 - 139.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Chandelure Flamethrower vs. 248 HP / 176 SpD Mega Scizor: 592-700 (172.5 - 204%) -- guaranteed OHKO

~SSword.

Wow, that's incredible. Who would have ever thought that Pokemon with Quadruple Weaknesses to a type of attack would have a strong chance to be OHKO'd by an attack of that type?

252+ SpA Chandelure Flamethrower vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Bisharp: 470-554 (172.7 - 203.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO (If Bisharp isn't running Sucker Punch)

~SSword.

I'm sorry but who in their right mind is going to run Bisharp without Sucker Punch?!

Look, I can't say whether or not Chandelure deserves to be moved up in rank, but if you want to prove your case, you need to post calcs of how it fairs against Pokemon it doesn't have an inherent advantage over, and demonstrate how it is capable of doing a job that nothing else in OU can do better. At the moment, you haven't met either of those criteria. Now, if you can post a stronger case, I'm legitimately interested to see it, but for now, I'm sorry, but no one is going to be convinced by your argument.

EDIT:

Also forgot this one...
252+ SpA Chandelure Energy Ball vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Quagsire: 660-780 (167.5 - 197.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
And Quagsire does have an extreme type advantage.

Yeah, except Quagsire is one of the few beings in the universe that is slower than me when I haven't had coffee, which means Chandelure will ALWAYS go first, even without Choice Scarf, negating that type advantage because, once again, you have a 100% accurate 4x effective attack.

 

[AM]

I do see your point with Swoobat, but the thing with Chandelure is that due a large array of moves, it can almost find a move thats super effective against every mon (barring chansey as a wall), I see chandy as a revenge sweeper, and yes whilstit does suffer from 4MSS, in those four slots you can put 4 moves completely aimed at coverage, I'll just put these cals out here:

252+ SpA Chandelure Energy Ball vs. 0 HP / 0- SpD Mega Diancie: 240-284 (99.5 - 117.8%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO
252+ SpA Chandelure Flamethrower vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mega Sableye: 156-184 (51.3 - 60.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Chandelure Hidden Power Fighting vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Tyranitar in Sand: 180-212 (52.7 - 62.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Even one of its key threats in Priority Aqua Jet from an Azumarill (before BDrum obviously) doesn't OHKO it:
252+ Atk Huge Power Azumarill Aqua Jet vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Chandelure: 174-206 (66.6 - 78.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

~SSword.

Welcome to Smogon btw,

Anyways Chandelure shouldn't really rise tbh, and I'm saying this as someone who uses it a fair amount. Like all these calcs are really nice in theory but they're actually not exactly existent in practice to the extent you're describing. For example Scarf Chandelure always ends up in these games in choosing the right coverage move and playing around not being pursuit trapped by the likes of ttar and bisharp. Stall-breaker is nice against slower builds which is one of its better sets honestly but being a stall-breaker weak to rocks just blows so much because you can't defensively check what you're trying to deter all the time due to the hazard pressure and opposing pressure being applied. Back to its Scarf Set it's actually nice for the simple aspect of revenge killing but it's not a scarf user that has the luxury like Keldeo who is resistant to rock or Lando-T who can grab momentum with U-Turn to just keep coming in so it fails to grab momentum at the extent that is necessary for a lot of these scarfers. I guess if we're talking about comparisons in overall useful I can't comfortably say that Chandelures utility is on par with the likes of Whimsicott, M-Aggron, Dugtrio, and Blissey who sit at C- right now. They have niche values but their values are actually much better on specific builds while Chandelure has these traits but by no means excels at any of them to the point where a lot of its use is really luxury and is more along the lines of generalizations. What it does well in I feel is enough to maintain it at D but it really doesn't pull enough weight in a lot of matches to justify a C- rank.

 

[jzplr]

This is my first post on these forums so I hope it goes well, anyways here we go:

Nominating Swoobat for D Rank, or C-.

Swoobat can be a handful to deal with at times, largely due to its ability to abuse Calm Mind + Simple. Swoobat can also learn a wide variety of moves: Giga Drain, Psyshock, Heat Wave, Stored Power, Air Slash, Signal Beam, Roost to name a few. Got some calculations for you guys:

+2 252+ SpA Swoobat Giga Drain vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mega Slowbro: 306-360 (77.6 - 91.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
With 2 Calm Minds this becomes:
+3 252+ SpA Swoobat Giga Drain vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mega Slowbro: 382-450 (96.9 - 114.2%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO

+2 252+ SpA Swoobat Psyshock vs. 4 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 268-316 (41.7 - 49.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

+2 252+ SpA Swoobat Giga Drain vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Rotom-W: 240-284 (79.2 - 93.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
With 2 Calm Minds this becomes:
+3 252+ SpA Swoobat Giga Drain vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Rotom-W: 300-354 (99 - 116.8%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO

+2 252+ SpA Swoobat Heat Wave vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Mega Metagross: 294-348 (97.6 - 115.6%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO

+2 252+ SpA Swoobat Psyshock vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Keldeo: 440-522 (136.2 - 161.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Albeit it does have its weaknesses, but I believe due to its medium-highh speed, and its ability to get a quick calm mind or two set up it can become incredibly dangerous.

Also nominating Chandelure from D to C- or C.

Chandelure is an incredible choice scarf abuser, it has a wide movepool that can often catch the opponent off guard. With a choice scarf its speed becomes approximately 375, outspeeding almost everything in ou, baarring priority and speed boosts. Flash fire also allows it to play a similar roll to Heatran. Good moves for it include: Energy Ball, Flamethrower, Shadow Ball, Psychic, Hidden Power Ice/Ground/Fighting and Overheat to name a few. Here are some damage calcs for y'all:

252+ SpA Chandelure Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mega Slowbro: 374-444 (94.9 - 112.6%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO
252+ SpA Chandelure Flamethrower vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Mega Metagross: 320-380 (106.3 - 126.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Chandelure Flamethrower vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Skarmory: 468-552 (140.1 - 165.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Chandelure Hidden Power Ice vs. 252 HP / 8 SpD Landorus-T: 372-440 (97.3 - 115.1%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO
252+ SpA Chandelure Hidden Power Ice vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Landorus: 376-444 (117.8 - 139.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Chandelure Hidden Power Ice vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Gliscor: 396-468 (111.8 - 132.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Chandelure Hidden Power Ice vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Garchomp: 360-424 (100.5 - 118.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Chandelure Flamethrower vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Excadrill: 498-588 (137.9 - 162.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Chandelure Energy Ball vs. 96 HP / 0 SpD Manaphy: 234-276 (64.1 - 75.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Chandelure Flamethrower vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Bisharp: 470-554 (172.7 - 203.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO (If Bisharp isn't running Sucker Punch)
252+ SpA Chandelure Flamethrower vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Weavile: 402-474 (143 - 168.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Chandelure Energy Ball vs. 0 HP / 0- SpD Mamoswine: 394-464 (109.7 - 129.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Chandelure Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Charizard X: 178-211 (59.9 - 71%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Chandelure Flamethrower vs. 248 HP / 176 SpD Mega Scizor: 592-700 (172.5 - 204%) -- guaranteed OHKO

What do you guys think?

~SSword.

Swoobat isn't that good. Swoobat ain't no NU to OU Kabutops. Swoobat is all kinds of frail, and while a +2 Calm Mind sounds amazing on paper, keep in mind that things like Diggersby get priority (albeit weak) + Swords Dance, which is also a +2 move. Swoobat has pretty poor stats, which makes setting up not only hard, but usually not work the risk. Also, keep in mind -- any Pokemon is dangerous when it sets up, and Swoobat probably isn't the best recipent of it. I would use Serperior. Fast, bulky, and can set up while doing damage -- but even Serperior has its weaknesses.

Yeah, people diss the annoyer set that I love for Whimsicott, and I like to use it despite all the flack it gets. In fact, I encourage you use Swoobat. If you just so happen to be kicking asses and taking names with Swoobat, keep on, but I think it should remain unlisted.

AraEdit: Unnecessary mean-spirited comment removed

 

[MilkyWay]

This is my first post on these forums so I hope it goes well, anyways here we go:

Nominating Swoobat for D Rank, or C-.

Swoobat can be a handful to deal with at times, largely due to its ability to abuse Calm Mind + Simple. Swoobat can also learn a wide variety of moves: Giga Drain, Psyshock, Heat Wave, Stored Power, Air Slash, Signal Beam, Roost to name a few. Got some calculations for you guys:

+2 252+ SpA Swoobat Giga Drain vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mega Slowbro: 306-360 (77.6 - 91.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
With 2 Calm Minds this becomes:
+3 252+ SpA Swoobat Giga Drain vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mega Slowbro: 382-450 (96.9 - 114.2%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO

+2 252+ SpA Swoobat Psyshock vs. 4 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 268-316 (41.7 - 49.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

+2 252+ SpA Swoobat Giga Drain vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Rotom-W: 240-284 (79.2 - 93.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
With 2 Calm Minds this becomes:
+3 252+ SpA Swoobat Giga Drain vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Rotom-W: 300-354 (99 - 116.8%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO

+2 252+ SpA Swoobat Heat Wave vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Mega Metagross: 294-348 (97.6 - 115.6%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO

+2 252+ SpA Swoobat Psyshock vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Keldeo: 440-522 (136.2 - 161.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Albeit it does have its weaknesses, but I believe due to its medium-highh speed, and its ability to get a quick calm mind or two set up it can become incredibly dangerous.

Also nominating Chandelure from D to C- or C.

Chandelure is an incredible choice scarf abuser, it has a wide movepool that can often catch the opponent off guard. With a choice scarf its speed becomes approximately 375, outspeeding almost everything in ou, baarring priority and speed boosts. Flash fire also allows it to play a similar roll to Heatran. Good moves for it include: Energy Ball, Flamethrower, Shadow Ball, Psychic, Hidden Power Ice/Ground/Fighting and Overheat to name a few. Here are some damage calcs for y'all:

252+ SpA Chandelure Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mega Slowbro: 374-444 (94.9 - 112.6%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO
252+ SpA Chandelure Flamethrower vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Mega Metagross: 320-380 (106.3 - 126.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Chandelure Flamethrower vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Skarmory: 468-552 (140.1 - 165.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Chandelure Hidden Power Ice vs. 252 HP / 8 SpD Landorus-T: 372-440 (97.3 - 115.1%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO
252+ SpA Chandelure Hidden Power Ice vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Landorus: 376-444 (117.8 - 139.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Chandelure Hidden Power Ice vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Gliscor: 396-468 (111.8 - 132.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Chandelure Hidden Power Ice vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Garchomp: 360-424 (100.5 - 118.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Chandelure Flamethrower vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Excadrill: 498-588 (137.9 - 162.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Chandelure Energy Ball vs. 96 HP / 0 SpD Manaphy: 234-276 (64.1 - 75.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Chandelure Flamethrower vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Bisharp: 470-554 (172.7 - 203.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO (If Bisharp isn't running Sucker Punch)
252+ SpA Chandelure Flamethrower vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Weavile: 402-474 (143 - 168.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Chandelure Energy Ball vs. 0 HP / 0- SpD Mamoswine: 394-464 (109.7 - 129.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Chandelure Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Charizard X: 178-211 (59.9 - 71%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Chandelure Flamethrower vs. 248 HP / 176 SpD Mega Scizor: 592-700 (172.5 - 204%) -- guaranteed OHKO

What do you guys think?

~SSword.

If you're seriously going to nominte Swoobat for D rank you at least have to do it right. You literally only mentioned 1 of Swoobat's three main selling points, which was Simple Calm Mind. The other two are what make Simple Calm Mind worth it: Stored Power (STAB) and base 114 speed. Obviously these latter two are huge because Stored Power is so nice coming off a Simple Calm Mind and base 114 is great in this meta, being ahead of the crowded 110 speed tier.

Swoobat @ Salac Berry / Lum Berry / Metal Spoon / Focus Sash
Ability: Simple
EVs: 4 Sp Def /252 Sp Atk/ 252 Spe
IVs: 0 Atk
Timid Nature
- Stored Power
- Calm Mind
- Heat Wave
- Substitute / Roost / Signal Beam

The above set is Swoobat's best and most viable set in the OU meta. Heat Wave and Signal Beam are for Steel and Dark types, who resist Phychic. Substitute helps avoid status, eases prediction, and activates the Salac Berry if you choose to use it. Remember the Salac Berry won't only boost speed, but Stored Power as well. Root aids in setting up and the rest is pretty "Simple" to understand. Also enough speed to outspeed base 111s and the rest dumped into Sp. Def is a better spread actually.

Swoobat's main niche over other Stored Power users (Espeon and Mega Latias) is that it has virtually no opportunity cost compared to them. Espeon requires either Smearlge or Scolipede in conjunction with itself, also known as a cancerous shitty playstyle called Baton Pass. Mega Latias obviously requires a mega slot and cannot boost as fast or efficiently as Swoobat thanks to Simple. Of course Swoobat also outspeeds Thundurus I and other base 110s unlike either Espeon or Mega Latias. It also has better coverage to take out Psychic resists and I'm pretty sure it his harder than both of them after 1 boost (will post calcs later, I'm afriad if I leave thiistab my iPad will crash since it's so slow right now).

+2 252 SpA Swoobat Stored Power (100 BP) vs. 96 HP / 0 SpD Manaphy: 231-273 (63.2 - 74.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

+1 252 SpA Mega Latias Stored Power (60 BP) vs. 96 HP / 0 SpD Manaphy: 156-184 (42.7 - 50.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

I'm not gonna waste my time posting Espeon calcs and if Mega Latias or Swoobat manages to grab two Calm Minds the power difference will only further increase of course.


And we can't forget that despite Swoobat's lackluster defenses it can set up on many special attackers thanks to a fast Calm Mind boost that will bring it to +2 in Sp. Def. Off the top of my head this would include Lando-I lackin Knock Off, some variants of Keldeo, and even more. I would post calcs but each calc takes me 5 minutes to get thanks to my internet and I think you guys get my point anyways.

I'm not sure if Swoobat is deserving of D rank, but at the very least it has its perks and is nowhere as dumb as that Pachirisu nomination, just wanna get that out there. If the council decides to add subranks for D and expand the D rank as a whole like ben gay said earlier I would support Swoobat for that. Unlike many other D rank pokemon, Swoobat has an actual niche of its own and is not outclassed by others above it either.

This replay can be taken for a grain of salt since this was this alt's first game on the ladder (couldn't risk hurting my main's rating haha),I was using a troll team, and I got a crit, but I couldn't resist posting it.


http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-220930066

 

[Eraxxer]

Swoobat can do something that others can't but it does it really really badly. In the replay it got a turn to set up because your opponent set up Iron Defenses on a special attacker that was going to 2HKO it. Against a good opponent it won't set up on really anything. It's not that fast when it's outsped by Starmie and Raikou and everything above, notably MMan and Mega Lopunny. It simply doesn't set up on offense or balance, even if it does aformentioned MegaLop, Starmie etc. or just priority users will mess it up. Its defenses are just absolutely terrible to be setting up on anything.

 

[astroboy]

lol just because something HAS a niche doesnt mean its a viable one. we dont rank xatu (this is an example, dont think im vouching for xatu to be ranked) because it has thunder wave and magic bounce because its outclassed in literaly everytning else. yeah swoobat has boosting moves, simple, and a decent speed tier, but its incredibly weak to priority (which this meta isnt lacking lol) due to its shit bulk, gets fucked over by any dark type in the tier, weakness to rocks, inabality to switch into any relevant mon. this is pachirisu all over again lmao

 

[Mr. Hothead]

Seriously guys? Talking about Swoobat and the likes? Alright, I have to fix this by talking about P2, Obviously.

Porygon 2: C ---> C+

I don't think this is a huge deal. P2 is an offensive Chansey on paper, and honestly it is with a semi different movepool. Being able to spread status like a boss and being a blanket check/counter to a lot of mons (non HA MMeta, Lando I, non Knock Off MSciz, MAlt (P2 Traces Pixilate with Tri Attack), Agility users (Trick Room), and things like MZard X that are suspectible to TWave). Also, being a Trick Room setter is beneficial because it can stop DDancers and RP users+support the team very well.

It also has nearly unmatchable bulk with Eviolite and Defensive investment.

252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Metagross Hammer Arm vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Porygon2: 162-192 (43.3 - 51.3%) -- 8.2% chance to 2HKO

+1 252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Porygon2: 172-203 (45.9 - 54.2%) -- 45.3% chance to 2HKO (It can Knock Off, but either way a Wincon is lost)

0 SpA Sheer Force Porygon2 Ice Beam vs. +1 0 HP / 0- SpD Landorus: 316-372 (99 - 116.6%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO (If you're wondering, -SpDef is because of Knock Off)

252 Atk Mega Heracross Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Porygon2: 264-312 (70.5 - 83.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (this is more to show off, P2 can Toxic/TWave this at most)

+6 252 SpA Thundurus Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Porygon2: 285-336 (76.2 - 89.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (lmao)
+2 252 Atk Garchomp Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Porygon2: 169-199 (45.1 - 53.2%) -- 32.4% chance to 2HKO

0 SpA Porygon2 Ice Beam vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Garchomp: 312-368 (87.1 - 102.7%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock (it KO's after the EQ due to Chomp needing a turn to SD ofc)

Those are just a few examples, you get the point. 85/90/95 defenses are godly on an Eviolite mon.




Copying abilities like Intimidate and Magic Bounce, he can really be expendable. Also, With good BoltBeam coverage, it can hit things like Garchomp and Lando I hard and other mons that cannot be paralyzed, in inclusion to hitting things like Keldeo hard with TBolt. Spreading status and being really hard to take out due to Recovery and Trace, I think this is a C+ mon.

Oh yea, its basically a counter to Non Knock Off Lando I... Thats a huge plus.

 

[SaberSeven]

We interrupt your Swoobat discussion for more relevant and meaningful discussions

I think Mega Tyranitar should drop to C+ or maybe C. Yes it's a powerful mon, but it packs a lot of opportunity cost for its team. Tyranitar would much rather be running a Choice Scarf to better Pursuit trap Latios or check Mega Metagross or a Smooth Rock to keep the sand up for an extra 3 turns. Also, in a fast paced metagame, Mega Tyranitar doesn't have the speed to keep up.

For the reasons of a high opportunity cost & Tyranitar wanting to run a better item, I feel like Mega Tyranitar should be dropped to C+ or C.

(I apologize for the Mega Garchomp buffoonery. Those brain cells responsible have been sacked)

 

[Invok3r]

We interrupt your Swoobat discussion for more relevant and meaningful discussions

I think Mega Garchomp should drop to C+ or maybe C. Yes it's a powerful mon, but it packs a lot of opportunity cost for its team. Yes; 170 Attack & 120 Special attack are nothing to scoff at, but what REALLY hurts it is the lack of Rough Skin and that speed drop to 92 which makes it slower than speedier variants of Kyurem-Black, Landorus-I, Mega Gardevoir, Mega Charizards X and Y, and other base 100 mons in the tier that run a high amount of speed investment. There are also other items that Garchomp would rather be running. Choice Scarf to act as a revenge killer, Lum Berry to avoid a burn on the SD set, and most notably Rocky Helmet to get extra chip damage on physical threats. And although the Life Orb set isn't as common (used 3.785% of the time in 1825 OU), it does almost as much damage as max attack Mega Garchomp with a positive attacking nature (outside sand).

252+ Atk Mega Garchomp Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Arceus: 187-222 (49 - 58.2%) -- 97.7% chance to 2HKO

252 Atk Life Orb Garchomp Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Arceus: 183-216 (48 - 56.6%) -- 86.7% chance to 2HKO

ORAS has also introduced some Megas that either give it issues or outclass it. The list includes Mega Sceptile, Mega Diancie, Mega Gallade (if packing the rare Ice Punch), Mega Sableye, Mega Lopunny (if packing Ice Punch), and most notably S-Ranked Mega Altaria.

4+ Atk Mega Garchomp Earthquake vs. 64 HP / 0 Def Mega Altaria: 174-205 (56.6 - 66.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
192+ Atk Pixilate Mega Altaria Return vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Garchomp: 360-426 (100.8 - 119.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO

For these reasons, although it's powerful, I feel like Mega Garchomp should be dropped to C+ or C.

I don't think that mega chomp should drop for a few reasons. Firstly, you are really underselling its power on the special side, it permits it to hit mons like defensive lando-t and weakened rotom-w, who can otherwise give it problems. Also, mega chomp has a lot more physical bulk than normal chomp, which lets it take hits like mega lopunny ice punch, or even dragonite's dragon claw. Another bonus is that balance teams dont have many switchins for this thing, especially if it packs stone edge. Lastly, offensive mega chomp is almost always used on sand teams, so the calcs should look a bit more like this:

Calcs

252+ Atk Sand Force Mega Garchomp Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Arceus in Sand: 244-288 (64 - 75.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after sandstorm damage

252 Atk Life Orb Garchomp Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Arceus: 183-216 (48 - 56.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after sandstorm damage

Mega Garchomp should stay in B-

 

[KillSeven]

We interrupt your Swoobat discussion for more relevant and meaningful discussions

I think Mega Tyranitar should drop to C+ or maybe C. Yes it's a powerful mon, but it packs a lot of opportunity cost for its team. Tyranitar would much rather be running a Choice Scarf to better Pursuit trap Latios or check Mega Metagross or a Smooth Rock to keep the sand up for an extra 3 turns. Also, in a fast paced metagame, Mega Tyranitar doesn't have the speed to keep up.

For the reasons of a high opportunity cost & Tyranitar wanting to run a better item, I feel like Mega Tyranitar should be dropped to C+ or C.
(I apologize for the Mega Garchomp buffoonery. Those brain cells responsible have been sacked)

I believe Mega Tyranitar is completely fine where he is. You bring up the argument that Tyranitar is more effective by "running a Choice Scarf to better Pursuit trap Latios". This doesn't make sense to me. Tyranitar does not need to run a choice scarf to pursuit trap Lati@s better. In reality, it can run any viable set and still pursuit the twins. Furthermore, Pokemon like Lati@s give Mega Tyranitar it's niche. It's a bulky sweeper and it does it's job very well. With access to Dragon Dance, Ice Punch, Earthquake, and Crunch backed by an Attack stat of 164, Defense of 150 and a Special Defense of 120 (boosted by sand) i'm sure I don't need to go into detail of how absolutely terrifying a +1, or even a +2 Mega Tyranitar can be. (With Tyranitar's bulk, it does not have much of a problem sweeping late game.) Keep in mind, at +1 Jolly Tyranitar is OHKOing max defense gliscor with Ice Punch and 2HKOing max defense Landorus-T, meaning Landorus-T can not switch in to counter it. (A quick side note, at max defense, Lando-T's EQ has a 2.7% chance to 2HKO Jolly Tyranitar.)

C+ is very low for a Pokemon of his potential and C is definitely way too low. Keep him at B-

 

[Flygonial]

I'm just going to ignore the Swoobat discussion, don't want to beat it anymore.
Chesnaught: B+ -> A-

I believe that Chesnaught deserves a raise, with the new threats in the tier and the addition of the nice new toy known as Drain Punch. Yes, it may have it's flaws such as being set-up fodder for Talonflame and Mega Altaria, but it has a lot of defensive utility. Spiky Shield is one of the greatest tools it has, and while it may not exactly be on the level of King's Shield, it doesn't come with any strings attached such as status still going through it. Therefore, it's a direct upgrade to Protect. It has the virtue of checking many, many physical attackers, and can deal with Ferrothorn as well with Drain Punch staving off Iron Barbs damage. It stops Mega Gyarados cold, which is definitely a prominent threat in the metagame as of now, along with a few other sweepers such as Feraligatr, Mega Tyranitar, and Mega Swampert.

Furthermore, it's probably one of the best checks to sand offense around. Excadrill can 3HKO it with an LO boosted Iron Head 0.6% of the time (32.8% after rocks, but then, Spiky Shield), dealing with Tyranitar is self-explanatory, and while Hippowdon is a problem, it can't do anything if it lacks Toxic (Sure, that's pretty uncommon, but some would run Stone Edge for Thundy). To add a cherry on top, it eats up almost everything Lando-T can throw at it (Except for some weird LO RP HP Flying set).

In addition, Bulletproof is a great asset, and actually provides more than immunities than just ball and bomb moves like Sludge Bomb and Shadow Ball, it can eat up Focus Blasts and Acid Sprays too. While pokemon that previously ran Sludge Bomb run Sludge Wave now, Chesnaught's rise is the entire reason why. It rarely runs Synthesis, but it's definitely an asset that allows it to continually keep physical attackers in check. Leech Seed is often preferred over it, which has it's merits as well. Chesnaught can force many switches on passive defensive 'mons, and Leech Seed the switch-in.

Chesnaught's support movepool and versatility goes a bit farther though. Just as he can force many switches and set up Leech Seeds, he can just as easily set up an extra layer of spikes or two, while still maintaining Drain Punch. A Sub + Salac Belly Drum set while uncommon, is not unheard of, but it's main value is in surprise factor. Regardless, this may work in favor of both sets, adding a tinge of unpredictability to it.

 

[Teeny Victory]

So its B-ranks discussion time? I've got something I'd like to bring up

Hydreigon to B+
I was kinda surprised to see this thing so low, and was especially surprised to see it as only 69th with 1.663% usage in the latest 1875 usage stats, but anyway.
Balance, Bulky offence and lando-I have seen a massive uptake of usage lately, and all three of these are extremely fitting for Hydra. Hydreigon absolutely obliterates nearly all balance builds with its amazing coverage, strong mixed attacking stats and solid bulk + switch in opportunity. Lets take some sample popular defensive cores commonly found on balanced teams and see how they fare...

Calcs against cores

Clefable + Hippowdon
252+ SpA Life Orb Hydreigon Flash Cannon vs. 252 HP / 96+ SpD Clefable: 218-257 (55.3 - 65.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Life Orb Hydreigon Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 112 SpD Hippowdon: 335-395 (79.7 - 94%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Life Orb Hydreigon Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 112 SpD Hippowdon: 207-243 (49.2 - 57.8%) -- 96.9% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
Beats Clef if it predicts right, beats Hippo by either fishing for D-Pulse flinches or OHKOing with draco after just 20% of prior damage
Lando-T + Rotom-W
252+ SpA Life Orb Hydreigon Draco Meteor vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Rotom-W: 278-329 (91.7 - 108.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Life Orb Hydreigon Dark Pulse vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Rotom-W: 172-203 (56.7 - 66.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recover
252+ SpA Life Orb Hydreigon Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 8 SpD Landorus-T: 352-415 (92.1 - 108.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Life Orb Hydreigon Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 8 SpD Landorus-T: 216-255 (56.5 - 66.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
Gets switch-in oppurtunitys easily vs noth mons, OHKO's the both of them with draco after sr, or just 2HKO's with d-pulse
Celebi + Heatran
252+ SpA Life Orb Hydreigon Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Celebi: 265-312 (65.5 - 77.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
0 Atk Life Orb Hydreigon Superpower vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 221-263 (57.4 - 68.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Life Orb Hydreigon Dark Pulse vs. 248 HP / 192+ SpD Heatran: 121-144 (31.4 - 37.4%) -- 84.6% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery (57.4+31.4+12-6=94.8)
2HKO's Celebi easily, and beats heatran with superpower + sr + dark pulse after just 6% of prior damage
Bulky-DD Mega Altaria + SpD Gliscor
252 SpA Life Orb Hydreigon Flash Cannon vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mega Altaria: 213-252 (60.1 - 71.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Hydreigon Draco Meteor vs. 244 HP / 192+ SpD Gliscor: 247-292 (70.1 - 82.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Poison Heal
-2 252 SpA Life Orb Hydreigon Draco Meteor vs. 244 HP / 192+ SpD Gliscor: 122-146 (34.6 - 41.4%) -- 72.3% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Poison Heal
(70.1+34.6=104.7)(remember, Poison heal is negated after sr damage)
Beats M-Altaria if it predicts the switch in, beats gliscor with draco.
VenuTran
0 Atk Life Orb Hydreigon Superpower vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 221-263 (57.4 - 68.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Life Orb Hydreigon Dark Pulse vs. 248 HP / 192+ SpD Heatran: 121-144 (31.4 - 37.4%) -- 84.6% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery (57.4+31.4+12-6=94.8)
252 SpA Life Orb Hydreigon Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mega Venusaur: 231-273 (63.4 - 75%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
-2 252 SpA Life Orb Hydreigon Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mega Venusaur: 114-136 (31.3 - 37.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock (31.3+63.4+12= 106.8) Again, beats heatran on switch-in with d-pulse + superpower, beats m-venu with 2 dracos and sr damage
Slowbro + Ferrothorn
252 SpA Life Orb Hydreigon Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 24 SpD Slowbro: 390-460 (98.9 - 116.7%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Hydreigon Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 168 SpD Ferrothorn: 126-149 (35.7 - 42.3%) -- 92.1% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 Atk Life Orb Hydreigon Superpower vs. 252 HP / 88+ Def Ferrothorn: 159-187 (45.1 - 53.1%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
(53.1+42.3=95.4)
Gets an easy free switch into slowbro and OHKO's it, beats Ferro with D-Pulse + Superpower after 5% of prior damage

I could go on and on with all the singular 'Mons it beats such as jirachi, mew, alomoloma, Defensive starmie, Zapdos, Skarmory etc but I decided to focus on Hydreigons main draw, its ability to annihilate common defensive backbones, leaving the opposing balanced team open for a fast sweeper to come through.

As you can see, Hydra does well against some very common cores in the metagame that allot of balanced teams rely on to pivot into attacks, as well as taking out the most common spinner on these teams, Defensive Starmie.

As I said above, Hydreigon also benefits from the huge surge of Lando-i (and Lando-T to a lesser extent) usage. Hydra gets a free switch in on Lando-I's Stab move, as well as being immune to psychic, taking shit all from knock off. Although it doesn't appreciate the rise of sludge wave and hidden power ice, both of which are capable of 2HKOing, it appreciates the fall of focus blast usage, which was lando's only way of OHKOing it. The fact that it can safely pivot into (arguably) the most potent offensive 'Mon in the current meta is a huge asset for the slower bulky offensive teams which have become much more popular lately, as lando-i shreds these slower paced offensive teams, and having Hydra in the back to check it is extremely helpful.

Now while this is all good and well, Hydreigon has been doing this all through XY/ORAS, as balance teams have always been popular and Hydra shreds near all of them, the thing that really pushes Hydras Viability over the edge is its synergy with the three most potent offensive threats in this meta, Lando-I, Keldeo and M-Metagross. These three 'Mons don't appreciate 'Mons such as Slowbro/king, rotom-w, lando-t, celebi, hippowon and other popular balance 'Mons being able to constantly come in and beat them, and Hydreigon makes absolute mince meat out of all of these 'Mons, and tears holes in the opponents team for the big 3 to come through and sweep late game.

The reason I'm nomming it to B+ is because I believe that its offensive capabilities in this meta are on par or above B+ 'Mons such as Diggersby, M-Heracross and Terrakion, and I feel it is above 'Mons such as M-bee, M-Sceptile, M-Sharpedo, Dragalgae and serperior, as its ability to tear apart common defensive cores is unmatched, and its viability placement should reflect this

so TL;DR
Hydreigon from B- to B+ thanks to its ability to tear apart commonplace defensive balance cores, pivot into Lando-I, and its synergy with potent offensive threats such as Keldeo, M-Meta and Lando-I.

So yeah, Hydreigon to B+

 

[biggy330]

So its B-ranks discussion time? I've got something I'd like to bring up

Hydreigon to B+
I was kinda surprised to see this thing so low, and was especially surprised to see it as only 69th with 1.663% usage in the latest 1875 usage stats, but anyway.
Balance, Bulky offence and lando-I have seen a massive uptake of usage lately, and all three of these are extremely fitting for Hydra. Hydreigon absolutely obliterates nearly all balance builds with its amazing coverage, strong mixed attacking stats and solid bulk + switch in opportunity. Lets take some sample popular defensive cores commonly found on balanced teams and see how they fare...

Calcs against cores

Clefable + Hippowdon
252+ SpA Life Orb Hydreigon Flash Cannon vs. 252 HP / 96+ SpD Clefable: 218-257 (55.3 - 65.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Life Orb Hydreigon Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 112 SpD Hippowdon: 335-395 (79.7 - 94%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Life Orb Hydreigon Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 112 SpD Hippowdon: 207-243 (49.2 - 57.8%) -- 96.9% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
Beats Clef if it predicts right, beats Hippo by either fishing for D-Pulse flinches or OHKOing with draco after just 20% of prior damage
Lando-T + Rotom-W
252+ SpA Life Orb Hydreigon Draco Meteor vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Rotom-W: 278-329 (91.7 - 108.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Life Orb Hydreigon Dark Pulse vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Rotom-W: 172-203 (56.7 - 66.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recover
252+ SpA Life Orb Hydreigon Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 8 SpD Landorus-T: 352-415 (92.1 - 108.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Life Orb Hydreigon Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 8 SpD Landorus-T: 216-255 (56.5 - 66.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
Gets switch-in oppurtunitys easily vs noth mons, OHKO's the both of them with draco after sr, or just 2HKO's with d-pulse
Celebi + Heatran
252+ SpA Life Orb Hydreigon Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Celebi: 265-312 (65.5 - 77.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
0 Atk Life Orb Hydreigon Superpower vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 221-263 (57.4 - 68.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Life Orb Hydreigon Dark Pulse vs. 248 HP / 192+ SpD Heatran: 121-144 (31.4 - 37.4%) -- 84.6% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery (57.4+31.4+12-6=94.8)
2HKO's Celebi easily, and beats heatran with superpower + sr + dark pulse after just 6% of prior damage
Bulky-DD Mega Altaria + SpD Gliscor
252 SpA Life Orb Hydreigon Flash Cannon vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mega Altaria: 213-252 (60.1 - 71.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Hydreigon Draco Meteor vs. 244 HP / 192+ SpD Gliscor: 247-292 (70.1 - 82.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Poison Heal
-2 252 SpA Life Orb Hydreigon Draco Meteor vs. 244 HP / 192+ SpD Gliscor: 122-146 (34.6 - 41.4%) -- 72.3% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Poison Heal
(70.1+34.6=104.7)(remember, Poison heal is negated after sr damage)
Beats M-Altaria if it predicts the switch in, beats gliscor with draco.
VenuTran
0 Atk Life Orb Hydreigon Superpower vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 221-263 (57.4 - 68.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Life Orb Hydreigon Dark Pulse vs. 248 HP / 192+ SpD Heatran: 121-144 (31.4 - 37.4%) -- 84.6% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery (57.4+31.4+12-6=94.8)
252 SpA Life Orb Hydreigon Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mega Venusaur: 231-273 (63.4 - 75%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
-2 252 SpA Life Orb Hydreigon Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mega Venusaur: 114-136 (31.3 - 37.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock (31.3+63.4+12= 106.8) Again, beats heatran on switch-in with d-pulse + superpower, beats m-venu with 2 dracos and sr damage
Slowbro + Ferrothorn
252 SpA Life Orb Hydreigon Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 24 SpD Slowbro: 390-460 (98.9 - 116.7%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Hydreigon Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 168 SpD Ferrothorn: 126-149 (35.7 - 42.3%) -- 92.1% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 Atk Life Orb Hydreigon Superpower vs. 252 HP / 88+ Def Ferrothorn: 159-187 (45.1 - 53.1%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
(53.1+42.3=95.4)
Gets an easy free switch into slowbro and OHKO's it, beats Ferro with D-Pulse + Superpower after 5% of prior damage

I could go on and on with all the singular 'Mons it beats such as jirachi, mew, alomoloma, Defensive starmie, Zapdos, Skarmory etc but I decided to focus on Hydreigons main draw, its ability to annihilate common defensive backbones, leaving the opposing balanced team open for a fast sweeper to come through.

As you can see, Hydra does well against some very common cores in the metagame that allot of balanced teams rely on to pivot into attacks, as well as taking out the most common spinner on these teams, Defensive Starmie.

As I said above, Hydreigon also benefits from the huge surge of Lando-i (and Lando-T to a lesser extent) usage. Hydra gets a free switch in on Lando-I's Stab move, as well as being immune to psychic, taking shit all from knock off. Although it doesn't appreciate the rise of sludge wave and hidden power ice, both of which are capable of 2HKOing, it appreciates the fall of focus blast usage, which was lando's only way of OHKOing it. The fact that it can safely pivot into (arguably) the most potent offensive 'Mon in the current meta is a huge asset for the slower bulky offensive teams which have become much more popular lately, as lando-i shreds these slower paced offensive teams, and having Hydra in the back to check it is extremely helpful.

Now while this is all good and well, Hydreigon has been doing this all through XY/ORAS, as balance teams have always been popular and Hydra shreds near all of them, the thing that really pushes Hydras Viability over the edge is its synergy with the three most potent offensive threats in this meta, Lando-I, Keldeo and M-Metagross. These three 'Mons don't appreciate 'Mons such as Slowbro/king, rotom-w, lando-t, celebi, hippowon and other popular balance 'Mons being able to constantly come in and beat them, and Hydreigon makes absolute mince meat out of all of these 'Mons, and tears holes in the opponents team for the big 3 to come through and sweep late game.

The reason I'm nomming it to B+ is because I believe that its offensive capabilities in this meta are on par or above B+ 'Mons such as Diggersby, M-Heracross and Terrakion, and I feel it is above 'Mons such as M-bee, M-Sceptile, M-Sharpedo, Dragalgae and serperior, as its ability to tear apart common defensive cores is unmatched, and its viability placement should reflect this

so TL;DR
Hydreigon from B- to B+ thanks to its ability to tear apart commonplace defensive balance cores, pivot into Lando-I, and its synergy with potent offensive threats such as Keldeo, M-Meta and Lando-I.

So yeah, Hydreigon to B+

I like the argument but one thing i didn't see you mention is that none of these calcs are relevant if you run specs because you can't switch coverage moves and you become predictable. I don't know what u used for calcs but assuming it's lo i could see hydra. In b+ also

 

[DarkNostalgia]

specs hydra is bad js, so thats irrelevant.
Hydreigon should definitely move up though. Great match-up against many common cores, great partnering with other metagame defining threats.

shady's defensive hydra for worst set anyone

 

[Clone]

I like the argument but one thing i didn't see you mention is that none of these calcs are relevant if you run specs because you can't switch coverage moves and you become predictable. I don't know what u used for calcs but assuming it's lo i could see hydra. In b+ also

Specs is Hydreigon's worst set. It would much rather run LO so it can switch moves and be the balance breaker that it's supposed to be.

 

[Teeny Victory]

I like the argument but one thing i didn't see you mention is that none of these calcs are relevant if you run specs because you can't switch coverage moves and you become predictable. I don't know what u used for calcs but assuming it's lo i could see hydra. In b+ also

Uhm all the calcs I posted ran lo, as you can see by the "life orb hydreigon" in the calcs. Specs hydra is kinda bad as it loses the ability to switch moves, as you said. I was nominating purely based on its lo set, which is its best set.

 

[ChipButty]

I seriously think we should consider putting some rules in place for nominating some random Pokemon for D rank. In the past few weeks we've seen far too much random shit being nominated because it has one tiny niche. Maybe having 1-3 replays instead of just calcs would be a good idea. I'm not trying to be nasty to anyone who has nominated stuff for D rank but its getting a bit out of hand atm.

 

[AM]

Lol this isn't a new occurrence what so ever. People will nom stuff to D all the time for the most random of reasons no matter the rules put in place. Half the comments replying to said nomination are harder to read than the actual nom themselves because they put down the user so hard that it's embarrassing . Ranking team sees all of these noms it's not like all of a sudden it's a pass that it will be considered anyways. If you don't like the nom, say something quick and move on. It only goes on for 1 to 2 pages cause people just echo the same 7 other users with their pitchporks and flaming torches before them and it's really not that hard to realize it's not gonna actually go anywhere. Not that big of a deal of what people are making it out to be.

 

[DragonAscent]

Chesnaught: B+ -> A-

Great post, but spikes really deserve a mention. Every forced defog or chip damage helps, and chesnaught can stack them pretty easily.

 

[Mr. Hothead]

Rhyperior: B- ----> C+

I really dont know why this thing is in the B ranks rn. The only thing this mon has over most mons is being able to set up rocks and destroy bird spam (which is really uncommon now) 3/4 S mons can kill it, and its slow speed does not make up for its shitty defensive typing.

In a metagame with a decline of birdspamming and an increase of hard hitting mons, he really lost his usage. Why would i use this over something like Hippo or TTar?

Its weak to practically every playstyle besides stall, and its pretty much deadweight if its facing balance or offense. What does this guy do?

Its RP sets are honestly gimmicky at best, and its basically outclassed as a birdspam counter and a wall in general. Slow speed and a bad defensive typing really took the toll with him being weak to Keldeo, MMeta, Lando I, Azu, BalloonTran, Lando T, and much more common mons. Overall, this isnt that great of a mon at all. If anything, it should go to C, but i think its good for C+.

 

[blinkie]

I'm just going to ignore the Swoobat discussion, don't want to beat it anymore.
Chesnaught: B+ -> A-

I believe that Chesnaught deserves a raise, with the new threats in the tier and the addition of the nice new toy known as Drain Punch. Yes, it may have it's flaws such as being set-up fodder for Talonflame and Mega Altaria, but it has a lot of defensive utility. Spiky Shield is one of the greatest tools it has, and while it may not exactly be on the level of King's Shield, it doesn't come with any strings attached such as status still going through it. Therefore, it's a direct upgrade to Protect. It has the virtue of checking many, many physical attackers, and can deal with Ferrothorn as well with Drain Punch staving off Iron Barbs damage. It stops Mega Gyarados cold, which is definitely a prominent threat in the metagame as of now, along with a few other sweepers such as Feraligatr, Mega Tyranitar, and Mega Swampert.

Furthermore, it's probably one of the best checks to sand offense around. Excadrill can 3HKO it with an LO boosted Iron Head 0.6% of the time (32.8% after rocks, but then, Spiky Shield), dealing with Tyranitar is self-explanatory, and while Hippowdon is a problem, it can't do anything if it lacks Toxic (Sure, that's pretty uncommon, but some would run Stone Edge for Thundy). To add a cherry on top, it eats up almost everything Lando-T can throw at it (Except for some weird LO RP HP Flying set).

In addition, Bulletproof is a great asset, and actually provides more than immunities than just ball and bomb moves like Sludge Bomb and Shadow Ball, it can eat up Focus Blasts and Acid Sprays too. While pokemon that previously ran Sludge Bomb run Sludge Wave now, Chesnaught's rise is the entire reason why. It rarely runs Synthesis, but it's definitely an asset that allows it to continually keep physical attackers in check. Leech Seed is often preferred over it, which has it's merits as well. Chesnaught can force many switches on passive defensive 'mons, and Leech Seed the switch-in.

Also you forgot to mention Sub Salac Belly Drum which is a viable set as well, as it can set up on Pokemon such as Rotom-W and Landorus-T, Ferrothron, etc. It can catch many opponents off guard due to the surprise factor, and Chesnaught can still put in some work without setting up(although lack of lefties is usually a giveaway). An idea I have experimented with lately is using VoltTurn to bring in Chesnaught on Pokemon it can set up against(U-turn Talonflame vs TTar and Rotom-w for example). Also as someone before me said spikes is a good reason to use Chesnaught, it is already very hard to wear down due to its natural bulk and Drain Punch.

 

[tigers jaw]

I can't really agree with dropping Rhyperior, in all honesty. It's still the premier ZardX answer available, and still walls pretty much every physical attacker that doesn't pack a 4X effective move (or a ridiculously strong 2X effective one, see: MegaCham/Gross/Gallade etc.). It's also an amazing asset to Trick Room teams with its low Speed, unbelievable Attack, SD, and great 3 move coverage (Stone Edge/EQ/Ice Punch). Backed up with Life Orb it hits insanely hard lol. I imagine a Wall breaker set can also work outside of Trick Room teams, too, though I haven't tried that out. B- isn't even that great of a rank to begin with.

 

[Mr. Hothead]

I can't really agree with dropping Rhyperior, in all honesty. It's still the premier ZardX answer available, and still walls pretty much every physical attacker that doesn't pack a 4X effective move (or a ridiculously strong 2X effective one, see: MegaCham/Gross/Gallade etc.). It's also an amazing asset to Trick Room teams with its low Speed, unbelievable Attack, SD, and great 3 move coverage (Stone Edge/EQ/Ice Punch). Backed up with Life Orb it hits insanely hard lol. I imagine a Wall breaker set can also work outside of Trick Room teams, too, though I haven't tried that out. B- isn't even that great of a rank to begin with.

yea, its a great Zard X check and all, sure. Now, most Physical attackers i know pack a SE move against Perior, like EQ or Close Combat.

If it needs TR support to be a bit good then thats a huge problem. Im not using something that needs 2+ support mons to actually be above decent.

B- isnt that great of a rank, sure... but i dont even think it deserves it. Why would i use Rhyperior over Hippo or TTar? Just because it has Ice Punch and RP? It's slow, needs support to actually do something, and if not relies on gimmicky sets such as RP WP and the likes. Taken out by too many common threats that i mentioned, and having a horrible defensive typing that doesnt compliment its great Physical Defense, I just see this as a mediocre Wallbreaker that can be replaced by things like TTar and such.

Also, its worn down very easily and suffers from no recovery. I dont really see why this is B- now.

 

[jzplr]

... While B-Rank is a subject, I'd like to talk about Skarmory.
I've been seeing a lot of mention of Custap around most of the Skarmory discussion. Though, in the time I've been playing OU I've never seen a single Custap Lead Skarm, there's not a set on the website for it, and iirc it's not even relevant for an analysis on the reservation thread, so can anyone explain why it's considered relevant now?

That, or I'm just out of sheer coincidence running into Custap Skarm discussion.

But uh, Rhyperior. What's it do better than Defensive Lando-T aside from checking Zard X?