Ugh. They're guidelines. The thread's audience is primarily newer players (assuming that the goal of VR is the same as when alexwolf ran it). The descriptions are to show that viability descends in a gradient. Descriptions are not there to strangle the ranking process by turning each nomination into a war over definitions. Don't over think this and don't get bogged down in semantics.
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Resource ORAS OU Viability Ranking Thread V3 - Read Post 3451 Page 139
- Thread starter AM
- Start date
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Cheryl.
Celesteela is Life
Oh, look it's Mega Scizor for S booooo. No, it's regular Scizor boys, and I'm nominating it for a rise to B+! Scizor is a cool wallbreaker with Choice Band, and it can pick off weakened threats like Hoopa-U and Mega Aerodactyl with Bullet Punch. It has U-Turn to help gain momentum and is pretty strong with STAB. It also has coverage options like Superpower to hurt otherwise checks and counters, like Heatran. It can also Pursuit trap the Latis and other Psychic types, like Starmie or Hoopa-U. It also has pretty nice bulk invested, so it can take a hit or two. Choice Band isn't it's only set, either. It can run Life Orb for a bit less power, but the ability to change moves, and I've heard of Choice Scarf Scizor, but I've never used it. It could also run a bulky Defog set, although it isn't the greatest set. One of the pros to using normal Scizor over Mega Scizor is not taking up a mega slot, making room for other megas like Mega Altaria or Mega Charizard X. Scizor has some cons, though. It's weakness to Fire can heavily cripple it, as it can't do much to stuff like bulky Charizard X or Charizard Y. It's also pretty slow without a Scarf, although Bullet Punch somewhat mitigates this. It's bulk is okay, but not the greatest either, as it sometimes fails to take some powerful hits. It also faces competition from it's Mega Evolution. But, overall, Scizor is a pretty good pokemon in the current meta and definetely doesn't deserve B, it should rise to B+.
Okay, so if you happened to miss it, this was one of the nominations that was being discussed last back on page 82. However, seeing as the ranking team was split on it, it happened to stay where it was. The issue is, something has happened between now and then that probably pushes this thing over the edge: Hoopa-U's release. Now, this is a pretty big problem for Reuniclus in a plethora of ways. First of all, (and this is probably the most minor of the issues for it) its match up versus Hoopa-U is atrocious. Its standard attacks (psyshock and shadow ball/ focus blast) can't really threaten Hoopa-U, and giving that thing free switch ins is just not good. And while, yes, you could run signal beam to alleviate this problem, you just end up compounding the fact that reuniclus already struggles to hit everything it wants to. However, getting past this point, the meta game shift Hoopa-U brought with it is the big problem. This "new" meta game has had a decrease in effectiveness and popularity for fat balance and stall. This is a problem for reuniclus, as these are the archetypes reuniclus is best on and against. Additionally, Hoopa-U's presence encourages the use of pursuit trappers on balance to help them remove it. These two things are the real issues for Reuniclus in the current metagame. In an offensive metagame, it struggles to stand out as a bulky CM'er, as one of its main benefits (being toxic/ burn proof) is far less useful. And, yes, while there are some cool, more niche sets like life orb TR or Choice Specs, these aren't enough to keep it where it is.
tl;dr Still basically the same pokemon with the same niches, just finds its niches less valuable in the current metagame as well as having its weaknesses exacerbated.
I'm pretty sure he never stated in his post that other pursuit weak mons shouldn't drop (also celebi isn't weak to pursuit as much as others due to baton pass).
Reuniclus isn't useless vs offense, but its performance against it is definitely significantly worse than against Stall and balance and the increased usage of offense harms it overall.
Reuniclus was already a borderline B-Rank previously mon and the changes made by Hoopa U effect it in a negative way. Dropping it is definitely seems reasonable in the current meta.
Rotom-Heat from C- to C.
Rotom-Heat has a small niche which that it can be an check to Mega Altaria, Mega Pinsir, Talonflame and Both Mega and Non Mega Scizor, as well as boasting 8 resistances and being able to beat Ferrothorn. Although Rotom-Heat is easily, EASILY outclassed by Rotom-Wash in every single way under the sun, it can deal with those things nicely. However, Rotom-Heat cannot and will not go up any more because it is weak to the omnipresent threat of Stealth Rock, which can hamper it's ability to deal with said pokemon, as well as it being outclassed offensively by Raikou, Mega Manectric and Thundurus-T as offensive Volt Switchers, and defensively by Rotom-Wash and Heatran. But it has carved itself some small niches in OU and thus shouldn't be bottom of the barrel.
Salamence to C-
Salamence is outclassed offensively by so much and defensively by a fair few things too, but it has a decent movepool and a decent defensive typing, and a bulky defog Salamence can deal with most of the bulky hazard setters, and it can stop all variants of Scizor if it has Fire Blast, and with Intimidate can be a Talonflame check if it packs Hydro Pump. but Garchomp, Tyranitar and many short lived hazard setters like Mamoswine and Terrakion beat it 1v1, and as a bulky defogger, Zapdos and Defog Mega Scizor are preferred. But, Salamence does have a couple of niches as a bulky defogger and for that reason shouldn't be "really, really, really bad", but "really, really bad" instead.
Dugtrio from C to C+
Dugtrio has a couple of niches it has a very respectable speed tier of 120, and it can trap and deal with Heatran, Tyranitar, Jirachi, Raikou, Magnezone, possibly Excadrill if its not under sand or scarf, Empoleon and Dragagle, as well as many other pokemon. However, it's so, so frail and is forced to run a Focus Sash because almost all types of priority OHKO it. Dugtrio has to be used in very specific teams, as Landorus-T outclasses it as well as many more pokemon as a ground type that can set up rocks, because Landorus has better bulk with Intimidate and a very nice offensive presence, even with not that much investment in attack. Dugtrio also has very, very limited coverage and can only function on teams extremely weak to said threats, but even then it's role is questionable. However if Dugtrio is put on the right team that it can pull of it's role excellently, which is why I think Duggy should move to C+.
Rotom-Heat has a small niche which that it can be an check to Mega Altaria, Mega Pinsir, Talonflame and Both Mega and Non Mega Scizor, as well as boasting 8 resistances and being able to beat Ferrothorn. Although Rotom-Heat is easily, EASILY outclassed by Rotom-Wash in every single way under the sun, it can deal with those things nicely. However, Rotom-Heat cannot and will not go up any more because it is weak to the omnipresent threat of Stealth Rock, which can hamper it's ability to deal with said pokemon, as well as it being outclassed offensively by Raikou, Mega Manectric and Thundurus-T as offensive Volt Switchers, and defensively by Rotom-Wash and Heatran. But it has carved itself some small niches in OU and thus shouldn't be bottom of the barrel.
Salamence to C-
Salamence is outclassed offensively by so much and defensively by a fair few things too, but it has a decent movepool and a decent defensive typing, and a bulky defog Salamence can deal with most of the bulky hazard setters, and it can stop all variants of Scizor if it has Fire Blast, and with Intimidate can be a Talonflame check if it packs Hydro Pump. but Garchomp, Tyranitar and many short lived hazard setters like Mamoswine and Terrakion beat it 1v1, and as a bulky defogger, Zapdos and Defog Mega Scizor are preferred. But, Salamence does have a couple of niches as a bulky defogger and for that reason shouldn't be "really, really, really bad", but "really, really bad" instead.
Dugtrio from C to C+
Dugtrio has a couple of niches it has a very respectable speed tier of 120, and it can trap and deal with Heatran, Tyranitar, Jirachi, Raikou, Magnezone, possibly Excadrill if its not under sand or scarf, Empoleon and Dragagle, as well as many other pokemon. However, it's so, so frail and is forced to run a Focus Sash because almost all types of priority OHKO it. Dugtrio has to be used in very specific teams, as Landorus-T outclasses it as well as many more pokemon as a ground type that can set up rocks, because Landorus has better bulk with Intimidate and a very nice offensive presence, even with not that much investment in attack. Dugtrio also has very, very limited coverage and can only function on teams extremely weak to said threats, but even then it's role is questionable. However if Dugtrio is put on the right team that it can pull of it's role excellently, which is why I think Duggy should move to C+.
The main issue with Reuniclus was that it was already on the verge of dropping, with the team split on it. I don't think every pursuit weak mon that gives Hoopa-U absolutely free switch-ins and has troubles in a more offensive meta should drop, but with this one being so close already, it quite honestly should. Now, being a bulky CM'er isn't useless against offense. However, other bulky CM'ers generally have a bigger defensive niche, allowing them to switch-in versus offense and pivot out to gain momentum, and/ or a way to cripple switch-ins. CM Slowbro, for example, can pivot versus things like non-knock off azu and then pivot to gain momentum/ scald to get the burn. Or, if you want an example that happens to be in the same rank as Reuniclus, Suicune can threaten switch-ins with scald burns and has nice bulk that lets it switch-in on a variety of things. CM Manaphy has a better typing and scald burns. Clefable has a great typing, awesome coverage, and yellow magic. Reuniclus, on the other hand just doesn't have a way to keep your opponents LO SD Chomp or Bandnite out. Also, it just doesn't have as many switch-ins versus offensive teams due to its lack of resists (though walling Mega-Medicham is nice.) Anyways, to conclude Reuniclus was already on the verge of dropping, and the recent unfavorable trends put it just outside of B+ rank.
Here's a suggestion: how about we release a so-called "rank list" (kinda like the Smash Bros. peeps do) every two or three months?
the meta doesnt freeze in place for months...and this ranking is updated fairly commonly.
But neither does the Smash Bros. meta (or any other meta, tbh). I don't play Smash Bros. competitively, but I lurked around and saw that their tier lists changed (like Diddy Kong was S rank at one point, then he dropped because people adapted to him).
Diddy Kong dropped because a balance patch was released, nerfing his best moves, and so his viability.
Its like, you took any fire coverage out of Clefable's movepool, that's what happened.
No, he dropped because he was nerfed. However, this isn't the place for that. (edit: ninja'd)
The main problem with ranking like that is that we already have the usage tier lists for that kind of thing. Generally speaking, the most viable 'mons are in the higher tiers. That is how it works, and it is a tried and tested system. The problem with player-built tier lists is that they are, for the most part, very subjective, and the solution we have here is just supposed to be a guide as to what you need to prepare for.
For reference, it is wiser to ask a moderator about this suggestion than post it on this thread. It keeps the thread from deviating from the central topic. Considering that this thread can harbor shitty discussion quite easily, such advice should be taken to heart.
A pokemon shouldnt be S for simply excelling at a role, because at the end of the day you will be facing 3 different types of teams, and when you decide to place said mon on the team it should be able to flourish in all matchups and not be a liabiiity. The best mons in the tier should not be a liability in most scenarios, hence why they are the best, truly making it very low risk to use in every realistic scenario. The problem with this argument is that something Mega Lopunny should be S for its role in dismantling offense, so yea , its a natural bias for the opposing offensive player to want this in S. But at the same time, the users of mega lopunny who face balance and stall, and the balance and stall players who face mega lopunny will agree that despite PUP and encore, Mega Lopunny is not consistent versus these types of teams, so thats not really what an S rank is even if its close. Those mons you mentioned such as Genesect and Greninja excelled against all types of teams and limited team building across the board . Gene sect just cheesed with u turn and download boosts on either offensive side and was able to clean up every play style. Greninja, had low kick and gunk shot for slower teams and had an amazing speed tier for offense . Clefable can easily sweep all types of teams with CM , sure its not a traditional sweeper but the problem is since most of its switchins are shaky and its not the easiest mon to ko its an easy candidate for S.
Then for the counters argument, sure most S rank mons don't have counters , but you have to consider that at the same time they also have small amounts of counterplay once they have put on their pressure and the most important part is that they carry the team on their back while asking for little support back. Lack of counters =/= lack of counterplay, as otherwise SD megachomp, hydreigon, and even kyurem B would be S. In other words, these mons have flaws just like Hoopa that prevent them from being consistent versus all types of teams. Hoopa is definitely a better wallbreaker than those 3, hence why he is ranked higher and fits in A+, but it also suffers some of the same problems with low speed for an offensive mon which is compounded by the fact it has no resists and bad physical bulk. That NP set you mentioned isn't as common as the scarf and mixed LO sets, and it seems like unless the opposing team is pretty slow you aren't getting off a NP . Hoopa u needs to make the most of its turns and should spend its time nuking before its inevitably forced out the next turn. Sure , Hoopa U is the best stall breaker in the tier and i won't go into detail about the downfall of stall in the meta, but Gothitelle (for which is a controversial topic for another time and place) has a similar problem in that despite being a disgusting stall breaker it is not consistent versus other play styles which is why its only B + .
The descriptions as AM said multiple times are literally dumbed down to just give newer players a simple guide on how effective a mon is in the metagame. So when they look at S ranks, they will see that these are by far the best mons in the game as they hold high amounts of viability. Then when they look at C ranks and see some thing like Cress they will get the basic understanding that that mon has lots flaws limiting its effectiveness. The descriptions aren't by any means something to solely base your arguments off of , and especially for the higher ranks arguments should be supplemented with its effectiveness against the playstyles, how abundant its checks are, its counterplay against those checks, splashability /utility, and preferably high quality replays.
Mega Latios C -> D or Unranked
What is the point of this thing?
Like seriously, why would you ever use it? It's just a Latios that eats up your Mega slot and is outdamaged by its LO-wielding counterpart. Its extra bulk is cool I guess, but it barely does anything noteworthy over vanilla and 99.99% of the time you're better off with that so you don't have to bend over backwards while teambuilding. It's just a waste of space and nobody would use it unless they're going out of their way to make it work.
Fight me Recreant, I'll be on Skype soon.
What is the point of this thing?
Like seriously, why would you ever use it? It's just a Latios that eats up your Mega slot and is outdamaged by its LO-wielding counterpart. Its extra bulk is cool I guess, but it barely does anything noteworthy over vanilla and 99.99% of the time you're better off with that so you don't have to bend over backwards while teambuilding. It's just a waste of space and nobody would use it unless they're going out of their way to make it work.
Fight me Recreant, I'll be on Skype soon.
Spare us the discussion that will go nowhere. The only real point that goes against MLatios is opportunity cost, which is why it's C. It's weaker yes, but it's also more than just a little bulkier when you consider that it doesn't lose 10% of its health every time it attacks which becomes more and more significant the less and less health that Latios gets worn down to. The cost of losing the opportunity to use an S-ranked or A-ranked Mega is why it's not considered good, warranting C-rank, but you can make very effective teams with no Megas at all if you wanted to. After all, There is a non-Mega in S-rank and obviously most of the ~A-rank 'mons aren't Megas.
Alright, I want to hang the disclaimer that the mon I'm nomming is one I really love, so there MAY be a biased to consider.
Tyrantrum to C+
Now, I love Tyrantrum for his Choice Band set. Head Smash can basically barrel through any core without a decently bulky resist with some help from SR.
252+ Atk Choice Band Tyrantrum Head Smash vs. 252 HP / 232+ Def Mega Slowbro: 181-214 (45.9 - 54.3%) -- 96.9% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
That said, his speed, mediocre Special Bulk, and lackluster defensive typing make him extremely susceptible to revenge kills, his speed barely above Bisharp's and leaving him outpaced by a lot of stuff even on Balance teams. Choice Scarf sacrifices significant power, and Dragon Dance sets have a very hard time trying to set up.
Now, these were all issues before, but one thing that has changed I think compounds these issues: Hoopa's entrance into the meta game.
Hoopa gives Tyrantrum heavy competition in its role of Wallbreaker, possessing a better (even if not necessarily good) defensive typing, a better Speed tier (outpacing Heatran and being able to tie with Base 80's is certainly valuable), phenomenal coverage, and mixed potential in exchange for going from ludicrous power to just extreme power. Now, Tyrantrum certainly had competition as a Wallbreaker even before, but Hoopa's presence coincides with/accelerated a metagame shift to more offensive teams, whether teams becoming full out offense or just leaning more towards it in balance. Tyrantrum does not fare well against offensive teams for the reasons I noted above, so until/unless the metagame shifts defensively again (unlikely in the near future with Zard-X, Manaphy, and Hoopa-U occupying the upper ranks), I feel he's more in line with wallbreakers like Staraptor, whose absurd power and offensive option can do some teams good, but usually is going to need support more than he will support anything in his role, compared to Toxicroak, who can soft check a lot of Water/Rain mons and has Sucker Punch alongside STABs to help check/revenge things like Gengar, the Latis, Keldeo, Azumarill, and LO/Mega Alakazam on offense, while also being good against typical members of a Steel-Fairy-Dragon Core such as Clefable, Altaria, Heatran, and some others depending on what he carries for a 4th Move.
In retrospect, I'm also a fan of what Toxicroak can offer a team, but I think Tyrantrum is more likely to drop than he is to rise.
Tyrantrum to C+, Toxicroak to B (?)
Even if neither of these take, they're two somewhat lower ranked mons I think could spark some discussion.
Edit: Had to correct some typos from running on so little sleep.
Tyrantrum to C+
Now, I love Tyrantrum for his Choice Band set. Head Smash can basically barrel through any core without a decently bulky resist with some help from SR.
252+ Atk Choice Band Tyrantrum Head Smash vs. 252 HP / 232+ Def Mega Slowbro: 181-214 (45.9 - 54.3%) -- 96.9% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
That said, his speed, mediocre Special Bulk, and lackluster defensive typing make him extremely susceptible to revenge kills, his speed barely above Bisharp's and leaving him outpaced by a lot of stuff even on Balance teams. Choice Scarf sacrifices significant power, and Dragon Dance sets have a very hard time trying to set up.
Now, these were all issues before, but one thing that has changed I think compounds these issues: Hoopa's entrance into the meta game.
Hoopa gives Tyrantrum heavy competition in its role of Wallbreaker, possessing a better (even if not necessarily good) defensive typing, a better Speed tier (outpacing Heatran and being able to tie with Base 80's is certainly valuable), phenomenal coverage, and mixed potential in exchange for going from ludicrous power to just extreme power. Now, Tyrantrum certainly had competition as a Wallbreaker even before, but Hoopa's presence coincides with/accelerated a metagame shift to more offensive teams, whether teams becoming full out offense or just leaning more towards it in balance. Tyrantrum does not fare well against offensive teams for the reasons I noted above, so until/unless the metagame shifts defensively again (unlikely in the near future with Zard-X, Manaphy, and Hoopa-U occupying the upper ranks), I feel he's more in line with wallbreakers like Staraptor, whose absurd power and offensive option can do some teams good, but usually is going to need support more than he will support anything in his role, compared to Toxicroak, who can soft check a lot of Water/Rain mons and has Sucker Punch alongside STABs to help check/revenge things like Gengar, the Latis, Keldeo, Azumarill, and LO/Mega Alakazam on offense, while also being good against typical members of a Steel-Fairy-Dragon Core such as Clefable, Altaria, Heatran, and some others depending on what he carries for a 4th Move.
In retrospect, I'm also a fan of what Toxicroak can offer a team, but I think Tyrantrum is more likely to drop than he is to rise.
Tyrantrum to C+, Toxicroak to B (?)
Even if neither of these take, they're two somewhat lower ranked mons I think could spark some discussion.
Edit: Had to correct some typos from running on so little sleep.
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I don't like reuniclus much. The only benefit to using Reuniclus over Clefable is that it has the ability to beat other Clefable. It used to be cool because it beat stall teams more easily because every steel type and Mega Venu didn't wall it. But now most stall teams have Mega Sableye, which sort of defeats the purpose. It has more bulk, true, but it has fewer resistances so Clefable's typing makes it have an easier time setting up against certain stuff. I know it's not fair to compare an S rank to a B, but it's such an absurd case of outclassing that I feel the comparison is justified.
I have always hated Mega Latios and definitely would put it in D rank (I wouldn't unrank it just because I think every mega is at least somewhat viable, more so than stuff in D and E rank certainly). The only reason to use it is if you are using CM Latios without another mega, and if you find that you don't have another Mega, that's a problem with your team building, not an excuse to use Mega Latios. DD sets are garbage and are only useful to lure in Heatran which LO Lati can do already. It's a totally useless mon in almost every situation. Please drop it.
In fact, change everything to AM's ideal VR from his POTW thread please, that's pretty much perfect imo lol.
I have always hated Mega Latios and definitely would put it in D rank (I wouldn't unrank it just because I think every mega is at least somewhat viable, more so than stuff in D and E rank certainly). The only reason to use it is if you are using CM Latios without another mega, and if you find that you don't have another Mega, that's a problem with your team building, not an excuse to use Mega Latios. DD sets are garbage and are only useful to lure in Heatran which LO Lati can do already. It's a totally useless mon in almost every situation. Please drop it.
In fact, change everything to AM's ideal VR from his POTW thread please, that's pretty much perfect imo lol.
Klefki A- -> A
I think at this point it is time for this to move up. Its typing is so good with the ability to switch into the likes of Weavile, Latis, mega fairies, Alakazam and Hoopa-U. I'd say it's actually the best switch-in for Mega Gardevoir on offense considering Scizor really hates Will-O-Wisp. These are difficult things to switch into on offense generally when you consider coverage options -- Lati and Hoopa-U come to mind. Klefki actually fits quite well onto offensive teams unlike Skarmory and is also often a better fit than Ferrothorn (the other premier Spikers in the tier). It has great utility options with stuff like Heal Block and Fairy Lock which can help against bulkier teams, with the ability to set screens to ease blows against offense. Prankster Thunder Wave fits so well on Klefki since it has so few weaknesses and a plethora of helpful resistances that allow it to come in safely quite often and threaten sweepers with the ability to cripple them. It's also pretty big that it only needs to switch in on one hit before it can retaliate with a support move thanks to Prankster - both Skarmory and Ferro can only switch in safely to retaliate if they can take 2 attacks most of the time because of their lackluster speed.
I think at this point it is time for this to move up. Its typing is so good with the ability to switch into the likes of Weavile, Latis, mega fairies, Alakazam and Hoopa-U. I'd say it's actually the best switch-in for Mega Gardevoir on offense considering Scizor really hates Will-O-Wisp. These are difficult things to switch into on offense generally when you consider coverage options -- Lati and Hoopa-U come to mind. Klefki actually fits quite well onto offensive teams unlike Skarmory and is also often a better fit than Ferrothorn (the other premier Spikers in the tier). It has great utility options with stuff like Heal Block and Fairy Lock which can help against bulkier teams, with the ability to set screens to ease blows against offense. Prankster Thunder Wave fits so well on Klefki since it has so few weaknesses and a plethora of helpful resistances that allow it to come in safely quite often and threaten sweepers with the ability to cripple them. It's also pretty big that it only needs to switch in on one hit before it can retaliate with a support move thanks to Prankster - both Skarmory and Ferro can only switch in safely to retaliate if they can take 2 attacks most of the time because of their lackluster speed.
That might be right, I shouldn't have brought in Greninja and Genesect because they were broken, of course. And I also realise that a pokemon has to be effective versus lots of many metagames to be S rank, which is why Lopunny isn't S. But as it stands now Mega Metagross was basically S for its All-out-attacker set, because it preformed said roll immensely effectively. While M-Altaria has basically not one set that makes it S, but it is a great sweeper, but what makes it S is that it has so many good sets which makes it immensely unpredictable. Clefable is what most people think is the best pokemon in OU at the moment, it preforms a support set amazing whilst many of its sets are great and a few are good.
See, the different between Hydreigon, Kyurem-B, Mega Chomp and Hoopa is that all of those pokemon and different sets that break different pokemon, if you run banded Kyurem-B there's a list of counters, but there's also a list of counters to the Mixed set. But the problem with Hoopa is one, most stall mons are specially based or they used fixed damage moves (Chansey, Cresselia, Scalds) So in general its physical bulk is rarely a problem for it versus stall. But Hoopa also only needs to run one set to beat every single mon on stall reliably. Here are some calcs so people actually realise how dumb this pokemons existence is.
+2 252+ SpA Life Orb Hoopa Psyshock vs. 4 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 604-711 (94 - 110.7%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO
+2 252+ SpA Life Orb Hoopa Focus Blast vs. 248 HP / 108 SpD Mandibuzz: 426-502 (100.7 - 118.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ SpA Life Orb Hoopa Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 112 SpD Hippowdon: 519-610 (123.5 - 145.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ SpA Life Orb Hoopa Psyshock vs. 240 HP / 0 Def Azumarill: 550-647 (137.1 - 161.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Life Orb Hoopa Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Unaware Clefable: 200-238 (50.7 - 60.4%) -- 89.8% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252+ SpA Life Orb Hoopa Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Suicune: 406-477 (100.4 - 118%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ SpA Life Orb Hoopa Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Eviolite Porygon2: 632-746 (168.9 - 199.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ SpA Life Orb Hoopa Focus Blast vs. 248 HP / 216+ SpD Assault Vest Drapion: 272-321 (79.3 - 93.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
^lol
I'm going to go all caps now because I'm honestly tired of this glaring problem in OU that's completely being ignored, sorry in advance AM.
At what point do we stop accounting stall as a viable playstyle anymore? Because in the current metagame you have two pokemon that will 100% of the time, unless you make crazy, irrational doubles eradicate stall. I can see moving a lot of shit up because of stall is basically non existent at this point. Do all of you collectively agree that stall isn't meant to be? Because a lot of us enjoy it... Really, in a perfect world I'd see gothitelle gone and Hoopa gone. Yes, stall isn't existent and that's why Hoopa isn't S but don't you ever realise that the REASON stall isn't existent is because of Hoopa and Gothitelle?
EDIT: I don't want to this to be scoffed off and die out... If you have something to say, please take a little time out to address your opinion.
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That's a typo for sure; do you mean that Hoopa-U gives it heavy competition as a wallbreaker?
MikeDawg
Banned deucer.
I think that Dragonite B+ -> A- is pretty fair at this point. I don't think that it functions too-too well as a dragon dancer anymore, but its band set is very nice to have in this meta in that it has relatively little problem breaking both defensive and offensive teams, particularly the latter. Mons like Weavile and Alakazam have become pretty prominent, and the traditional lopunny, thundy talon, tornadus, are even more popular than before. Talonflame was the typical revenge killer/cleaner, but its choice band set fell out of style because of how exploitable and predictable talonflame was as a whole.
Dragonite excels as a priority cleaner/revenge killer, because 1) fast normal resists are rare, making extremespeed far more spammable than mach or bullet punch and 2) extremespeed is dragonite's weakest move (while still being very strong). Stopping banded talonflame meant switching in a bulky resist, because brave bird was its strongest move to begin with. Switching into Dragonite, however, comes with the added pressure of a stronger (perhaps supereffective) coverage move like superpower, eq, or iron head, or even a much stronger outrage, meaning that switching out of a predicted extremespeed is incredibly dangerous.
Also worth mentioning is that Extremespeed's +2 priority allows it to pick off things like talonflame or weavile before they can move, which is super helpful in an offensive context.
Obligatory extremespeed calcs. tl;dr: 2hkos everything from latias up. Ohkos things like alakazam and weavile and talon after rocks.
We already know that it's really strong, has good coverage, relatively unpredictable, multiscale, etc. That much hasn't changed. It is the fast-and-frail meta shift that I think warrants the rise. Outspeeding tankchomp is also nice (dtail hits last anyway, but dtail came along with slow chomp, so you get the idea). It doesn't need defog support as badly as its ddance counterpart either (though it is obviously very dangerous with it) making it a bit more self-sufficient.
It is also quite a bit better than gallade, hydreigon, scolipede, and dragalgae. Imo, it is on par with/a bit better than volc, aero, and celebi.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-255485000
Here's a cute replay of dnite saving my poopy gen5 team from a 6-0 via standard rain <3
Dragonite excels as a priority cleaner/revenge killer, because 1) fast normal resists are rare, making extremespeed far more spammable than mach or bullet punch and 2) extremespeed is dragonite's weakest move (while still being very strong). Stopping banded talonflame meant switching in a bulky resist, because brave bird was its strongest move to begin with. Switching into Dragonite, however, comes with the added pressure of a stronger (perhaps supereffective) coverage move like superpower, eq, or iron head, or even a much stronger outrage, meaning that switching out of a predicted extremespeed is incredibly dangerous.
Also worth mentioning is that Extremespeed's +2 priority allows it to pick off things like talonflame or weavile before they can move, which is super helpful in an offensive context.
Obligatory extremespeed calcs. tl;dr: 2hkos everything from latias up. Ohkos things like alakazam and weavile and talon after rocks.
252+ Atk Choice Band Dragonite Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Thundurus: 196-231 (65.5 - 77.2%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Choice Band Dragonite Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Talonflame: 193-228 (64.9 - 76.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Choice Band Dragonite Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 24 Def Weavile: 201-237 (71.5 - 84.3%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Choice Band Dragonite Extreme Speed vs. 32 HP / 0 Def Alakazam: 275-324 (106.1 - 125%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Dragonite Extreme Speed vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Starmie: 169-199 (52.3 - 61.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Dragonite Extreme Speed vs. 132 HP / 0 Def Tornadus-T: 177-209 (53.3 - 62.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Choice Band Dragonite Extreme Speed vs. 32 HP / 0 Def Raikou: 187-220 (56.8 - 66.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Choice Band Dragonite Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Lopunny: 154-182 (56.8 - 67.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Choice Band Dragonite Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Hoopa: 225-265 (74.7 - 88%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Choice Band Dragonite Extreme Speed vs. 72 HP / 0 Def Latias: 160-189 (50.1 - 59.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Choice Band Dragonite Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Talonflame: 193-228 (64.9 - 76.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Choice Band Dragonite Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 24 Def Weavile: 201-237 (71.5 - 84.3%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Choice Band Dragonite Extreme Speed vs. 32 HP / 0 Def Alakazam: 275-324 (106.1 - 125%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Dragonite Extreme Speed vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Starmie: 169-199 (52.3 - 61.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Dragonite Extreme Speed vs. 132 HP / 0 Def Tornadus-T: 177-209 (53.3 - 62.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Choice Band Dragonite Extreme Speed vs. 32 HP / 0 Def Raikou: 187-220 (56.8 - 66.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Choice Band Dragonite Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Lopunny: 154-182 (56.8 - 67.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Choice Band Dragonite Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Hoopa: 225-265 (74.7 - 88%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Choice Band Dragonite Extreme Speed vs. 72 HP / 0 Def Latias: 160-189 (50.1 - 59.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
We already know that it's really strong, has good coverage, relatively unpredictable, multiscale, etc. That much hasn't changed. It is the fast-and-frail meta shift that I think warrants the rise. Outspeeding tankchomp is also nice (dtail hits last anyway, but dtail came along with slow chomp, so you get the idea). It doesn't need defog support as badly as its ddance counterpart either (though it is obviously very dangerous with it) making it a bit more self-sufficient.
It is also quite a bit better than gallade, hydreigon, scolipede, and dragalgae. Imo, it is on par with/a bit better than volc, aero, and celebi.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-255485000
Here's a cute replay of dnite saving my poopy gen5 team from a 6-0 via standard rain <3
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SketchUp
Don't let your memes be dreams
Not supporting a Toxicroak rise because it really struggles against common balanced / bulky offensive builds (where it has the best matchup against in general) because of the high usage of (SpD) Talonflame, Lando-T, Garchomp, MScizor, MSableye, Skarmory and Excadrill to name a few. I have used Toxicroak a lot, I am aware of its capabilities, but at the moment B is too high for it, simply because the current metagame trends are really bad for croak.
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