Resource ORAS OU Viability Ranking Thread V3 - Read Post 3451 Page 139

[Slayerblade]

Azumarill: A+ -> S

It's fine in A+ Choice Band set is very prediction reliant and BD has difficulty setting up and is not hard to revenge with the plethora of water resists.

Ferrothorn: A -> A+

Great typing, excellent movepool, it's raw bulk lets it go toe to toe with anything not carrying Fire moves. It's very presence forces mons to slap on sub optimal moves just to not get hard walled. This could go either way, but leaning towards A+.

Gengar: A+ -> A

I think it's time for this guy to movedown. It's bulk is non existent, so it provides next to no defensive utility. It also doesn't hit quite as hard as it would like to even with it's great coverage. Weavile and Scarf Tar being everywhere doesn't help it's case either. It is simply worse than just about everything in A+ and quite a few in A rank too.

Klefki: A- -> A

Nothing much to be said other than what has already been stated ad infinitum. This obviously needs to move up.


Reuniclus: B+ -> B

This needs to drop. Dark types are everywhere and it has trouble setting up against non stall.

 

[Sochlo]

I think what's keeping Ferrothorn from A+ is the fact that literally every decent team is prepared for it. The things it checks often carry coverage that can deal with it because Fire and Fighting are simply great offensive types and is commonplace. You can take advantage of Ferro this way as user Red Troodon has pointed out. The threat of Fire coverage makes you have to think twice about switching/staying in.

Not to completely dismiss the idea, as Ferrothorn's utility is pretty much unmatched and it's a staple on so many teams. I just think most teams are well equipped to deal this thing compared to other A+ mons.

Gengar: A+ -> A

I think it's time for this guy to movedown. It's bulk is non existent, so it provides next to no defensive utility. It also doesn't hit quite as hard as it would like to even with it's great coverage. Weavile and Scarf Tar being everywhere doesn't help it's case either. It is simply worse than just about everything in A+ and quite a few in A rank too.

It has three immunities, two of which are to some of the most common offensive types. Gengar hits plenty hard with its unresisted coverage, it has very few defensive answers because few things can take its STABs twice and aren't weak to Focus Blast. It also has other options in Sub Disable, Dbond, and WoW Hex all without giving up its offensive presence.

Pursuit trapping is a problem but mons like Weavile and Tar always have to be wary of Focus Blast (and Sludge Wave in Weavile's case), unless they come in for a revenge kill in which case Gengar has already secured a kill. Ghost is just so retardedly good offensively that I think Gengar's pros are enough to keep it A+.

 

[Imperator Romanum]

I'm against Gengar dropping

Gengar is such a... Tricky pokemon. It has a nifty typing giving three immunities two of which are immensely common, it also has plenty of resistances, easily coming in on the likes of Grass, Poison and Bug attacks, and when it comes in its when you have a real problem. Gengar has very, very reliable counters. None of which have recovery, it's stabs/power/movepool renders switch ins on offence, balance and of course stall next to none. Things like Tentacruel and Goodra can switch in and force it out, but both of those pokemon have glaring flaws which renders them rarely used. And you can mention the likes of Tornados-Therian, Hoopa and Weavile giving it trouble but they can all be dealt with, semi reliably with Will O Wisp. Personally, the reason I believe Gengars being nominated to drop right now is because LO Taunt is pretty useless compared to a couple months ago with Hoopa coming in and making stall none existant. Its best set isn't LO taunt anymore, it's LO will o wisp imo and still rightfully deserves A+

 

[bludz]

Ferrothorn A -> A+
Let's compare it to another pokemon that recently moved up to A+: Hippowdon. Hippowdon relies on great natural bulk and strong defensive typing to wall a large portion of the metagame. It is a reliable hazard setter and provides a lot of team support by checking dangerous pokemon like Mega Lopunny, SD Talonflame, Mega Charizard X, Sand Rush Excadrill, and Bisharp. While Ferrothorn may not have reliable recovery like Hippowdon, it similarly checks a large number of big threats including Mega Gyarados, Azumarill, most mega fairy types, Rain Offense, and a plethora of other pokemon that fail to hit it super effectively.

I think if you look at a pros and cons list between the two pokemon, it's obvious that Hippowdon is simply more reliable: it has access to Slack Off. However Hippowdon is also more of a free invitation for many pokemon to come in than Ferrothorn, which can Leech Seed almost any switch-in. Ferrothorn also takes better advantage of the free turns that it gets by being able to set up Spikes. On top of that, its movepool is more diverse with options such as Knock Off and Thunder Wave.

I would say if anything is keeping Ferrothorn out of A+, it is the fact that it is used as a blanket check to many water types and thus becomes a Scald absorber. Getting burned shortens its lifespan quite a bit and impairs its function to reliably check certain threats that it otherwise would with its STAB moves.

Perhaps Heatran is a better comparison overall, but I wanted to base this on trends (and Heatran's been good for forever whereas Hippo's rise while not so recent is not exactly ancient history).

Gengar A+ -> A
I am starting to see the argument for it moving down as more reasonable. Stallbreaking simply isn't as necessary any more because Hoopa has sent the metagame spiraling into a more offensive direction. It's also checked by Tornadus-T and Weavile, and also hates how prominent pursuit trapping is in the current metagame. I think, however, Gengar provides a lot more versatility than most of the pokemon in A rank. If we were to judge Gengar solely on the LO 3 attacks + Taunt set, I would agree that it should move down. However Will-O-Wisp is amazing for pokemon like Bisharp (also makes Torn-T a much worse check and limits its otherwise excellent longevity), and Substitute variants can still put in work when they get a chance to set up. I'm leaning toward keeping it in A+ simply based on how fantastic it is offensively (one of the best fairy breakers) along with its plethora of options even if its role as a breaker is less in demand.

 

[Finchinator]

Was responding to the other guy, but his post got deleted and I don't want this to be totally off topic of the mons being discussed so, I believe that Ferrothorn is worth moving up to A+. It's a pokemon that finds its way onto many teams thanks to the utility options it possesses (spikes, leech, defensive typing, good bulk, etc.) and can also go a long way towards checking many common pokemon (dd mega alt w/out fire blast, non hp fire manaphy, azumarill assuming not switching in on cb superpower, mega gyarados to some extent, non hp fire latis, raikou, feraligatr, etc.). Another big thing about Ferrothorn is that it doesn't necessarily kill momentum (it's not too passive), so you can slap one onto a bulky offensive or even offensive team, if the circumstances warrant it, for spikes and defensive utility. Overall, Ferrothorn's good enough to rise A+.

 

[AM]

E rank is being removed. Discussion points still stay the same. Also would like to give a big thanks to ben gay for his time and effort here on the ranking team and in general to OU. Hope to see you around once in awhile.

 

[Aquarium1]

AM could please explain why E rank was removed?

AM Edit: Cause it was pointless in the end and ranking team agreed with it.

 

[AM]

Oh and unless ranking team has some sort of huge love for this I removed Espeon. Only was there cause of a E rank situation with Xatu.

 

[Clone]

rip shedinja, bane of OLT ladderers

 

[Jaroda]

I don't see a need for Gengar to move down. It still has all the tools it needs to perform well. Substitute and wow/Disable/Destiny Bond is all it needs once it gets in with its immunities or otherwise to handle tons of would be checks, and it's so nice to have a fast offensive Poison type for the onslaught of Fairy types, and only Diancie speed ties (thought Azumarill has priority). It's still equipped to thrive and frankly I'm usually worried when I see a Gengar because they are so god damn versatile I can easily make a costly error before scouting it's set or coverage options.

 

[Mar1onette]

I don't see a need for Gengar to move down. It still has all the tools it needs to perform well. Substitute and wow/Disable/Destiny Bond is all it needs once it gets in with its immunities or otherwise to handle tons of would be checks, and it's so nice to have a fast offensive Poison type for the onslaught of Fairy types, and only Diancie speed ties (thought Azumarill has priority). It's still equipped to thrive and frankly I'm usually worried when I see a Gengar because they are so god damn versatile I can easily make a costly error before scouting it's set or coverage options.

its not about if it can still do what it does, its about how well it can do it, how effective it is in the meta, and what's changed to make it better or worse. and like said above in previous posts with the rise of weavile and hoopa-U being everywhere and being checked by common threats in the tier, gengar can't do its job as effectively anymore , its extreme pressure on it. its stall breaking isn't as necessary anymore because of hoopa-U, pursuit trapping is extremely common with the rise in usage of weavile and common threats like TTar and Bisharp. it can still do its job fantastically but its effectiveness and niche in the meta has lessened. someone stated above that its Sub Wow set is why it should stay in A+ Rank, (at this point im going by what Post #2885 Said about gengar's Sub Wow set) but that set is still stopped by bisharp regardless of WoW because how common heal bell, healing wish and other status moves healing moves are in this tier thanks to pokes like clefable, mega altaria, and latias. and tornadus-T has regenorator which after forcing the switch can switch itself out to regain hp and possibly have its status'd healed by another pokemon on the team.

 

[Martin]

its not about if it can still do what it does, its about how well it can do it, how effective it is in the meta, and what's changed to make it better or worse. and like said above in previous posts with the rise of weavile and hoopa-U being everywhere and being checked by common threats in the tier, gengar can't do its job as effectively anymore , its extreme pressure on it. its stall breaking isn't as necessary anymore because of hoopa-U, pursuit trapping is extremely common with the rise in usage of weavile and common threats like TTar and Bisharp. it can still do its job fantastically but its effectiveness and niche in the meta has lessened. someone stated above that its Sub Wow set is why it should stay in A+ Rank, (at this point im going by what Post #2885 Said about gengar's Sub Wow set) but that set is still stopped by bisharp regardless of WoW because how common heal bell, healing wish and other status moves healing moves are in this tier thanks to pokes like clefable, mega altaria, and latias. and tornadus-T has regenorator which after forcing the switch can switch itself out to regain hp and possibly have its status'd healed by another pokemon on the team.

IDK. If I'm completely honest, even with Weavile, Hoopa and Bisharp being everywhere, I don't think Gengar is any less effective than it has ever been. Last I checked, Pursuit was almost as common before the rise of weavile as it is now, and to be using Heal Bell/Wish as an excuse as to why it doesn't beat Bisharp only proves that Sub+Will-O does beat it as it is implying that it is reliant on external support to not be beaten by it. Also, you seem to be forgetting that none of the common Pursuit users (Bisharp, Weavile, Tyranitar, Mega Metagross etc.) are actually capable of switching in on Gengar before you consider the possibility of Will-O due to being OHKOed by Focus Blast or Shadow Ball, respectively. As for Tornadus-T, it really freaking hates status regardless of Regenerator. This is because, assuming it doesn't need to take any hits (fat chance), it will be at a HP deficit when it switches out after just three turns (including the turn that it comes in). Both LO and Hex variants 2HKO AV Torn-T after 1 turn of burn recoil anyway, meaning that the Torny is as good as dead if it misses Gengar's sub:

• 252 SpA Life Orb Gengar Sludge Wave vs. 96 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Tornadus-T: 148-175 (45.8 - 54.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after burn damage
• 248 SpA Gengar Hex (130 BP) vs. 96 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Tornadus-T: 154-183 (47.6 - 56.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after burn damage

IMHO, Gengar isn't exactly in a position where it is any less effective than it was before, and I certainly wouldn't put it down on the same level as Char-Y and Starmie.

 

[Vert]

controversial nomination that is not on the slate:
i personally think

should be a+ rank. why? this thing basically defines offense nowadays. it can pursuit trap, sweep, and checks a huge portion of the metagame ranging from raikou to tornadus-t to hoopa-u. priority ice shard is super clutch allowing you to put faster foes in a checkmate position when weakened like a m-lopunny at 25% for example. it also deals with mega sceptile, m-aero, weakened m-zam, and +2 landorus-t which have easy times against offense. opposing offense teams' checks to weavile suffer in the long run because they cannot switch-in repeatedly or they just lose to a coverage move of weavile. for example, keldeo hates knock off and cannot come in to repeated icicle crashes afterwards. azumarill and clefable struggle with poison jab weavile. it even has low kick to punish tyranitar, bisharp, and ferrothorn. unlike other pokemon that sit at blazing fast speed tiers, weavile rarely struggles with passive walls. quagsire without leftovers might not be a quagsire. mega sableye takes a lot more from icicle crash than one thinks. skarmory tend to go specially defensive these days which is nice when facing balance. speaking of ice-stab, its probably the best offensive stabs right now especially when paired with stab knock off. icicle crash even has a nifty flinch chance :0 swords dance weavile can be a menace as well, packing a ton of power between its stabs and an ice shard to deal with faster 'mons like m-alakazam and a weakened m-manectric. overall, the combination of these traits and utility, honestly make weavile really good right now. it is surprising to see a once b- rank 'mon to be so high, but weavile is at its peak with the current state of the metagame

 

[Kappa Squared]

controversial nomination that is not on the slate:
i personally think

should be a+ rank. why? this thing basically defines offense nowadays. it can pursuit trap, sweep, and checks a huge portion of the metagame ranging from raikou to tornadus-t to hoopa-u. priority ice shard is super clutch allowing you to put faster foes in a checkmate position when weakened like a m-lopunny at 25% for example. it also deals with mega sceptile, m-aero, weakened m-zam, and +2 landorus-t which have easy times against offense. opposing offense teams' checks to weavile suffer in the long run because they cannot switch-in repeatedly or they just lose to a coverage move of weavile. for example, keldeo hates knock off and cannot come in to repeated icicle crashes afterwards. azumarill and clefable struggle with poison jab weavile. it even has low kick to punish tyranitar, bisharp, and ferrothorn. unlike other pokemon that sit at blazing fast speed tiers, weavile rarely struggles with passive walls. quagsire without leftovers might not be a quagsire. mega sableye takes a lot more from icicle crash than one thinks. skarmory tend to go specially defensive these days which is nice when facing balance. speaking of ice-stab, its probably the best offensive stabs right now especially when paired with stab knock off. icicle crash even has a nifty flinch chance :0 swords dance weavile can be a menace as well, packing a ton of power between its stabs and an ice shard to deal with faster 'mons like m-alakazam and a weakened m-manectric. overall, the combination of these traits and utility, honestly make weavile really good right now. it is surprising to see a once b- rank 'mon to be so high, but weavile is at its peak with the current state of the metagame

I definitely agree that Weavile is at is peak rn, but I'm a bit iffy about bumping it to A+. It's at its best against offense, given it can't really deal out more that 7 hits without dying, so LO stalling is definitely a huge issue, given it's weakness to rocks (and almost every form of priority in the game). A lot of the revenge kills you speak of (m-zam, m-mane, m-lop, raikou, hoopa) require the opposing mon to be severely weakened, and that doesn't happen that often considering how especially the former 3 get OHKO'd really frequently anyway (though it's not THAT situational). Also Weavile can't really switch into any offensive 'mon in the game bar a psychic attack (which requires some ballsy prediction), making it mostly useful for revenge kills. It's also really good at cleaning when priority is gone but really anything with priority (except i guess loom) can revenge it. Probably one of the best mons in A, but i think that's a good place for it.

 

[AM]

Keep it to discussion points, Weavile from my understanding isn't moving up.

 

[lonlyboysh]

THE CURRENT STATE OF ORAS OU: Fast offense with lots of Dragons, Fairies and Steels.

Azumarill: A+ -> S - Agree
With its versatilty (AV, BD or CB), strength that can 2HKO almost the whole OU with it's STAB Play Rough and Waterfall combo, and priority it is definitely a top-tier threat. With AV, it can even take a STAB Thunderbolt and proceed to take out half of her foe's HP. With BD, it could sweep out teams that is not specifically prepared for it.

BD Azum made me lose so much that i went from 1700 to 1400 :(

Ferrothorn: A -> A+ - Strongly Agree
Definitely a top tier wall. With Iron barbs + Rocky helmet combo, it can tank those physical attacks esp with U-turns around and proceed to heal itself back with Leech Seed. It can even 2HKO Hoopa-U, or potentially OHKO after rocks. Its 120 BP Power whip is a guaranteed 2HKO to most waters (manaphy included), while its Gyro Ball is definitely scary against the fast metagame.

Also, the mere fact that most mons and sets carry either a fire-type move or HP fire specifically for it (and to an extent, scizor and other steels) means that it is definitely a scary wall.

Gengar: A+ -> A - Strongly Disagree
Why would Gengar fall when there arent new threats around? Fairies still exists. Its 130-base SpA definitely hurts alot, with great coverage that hits those pesky fairies hard and works wonders as a stallbreaker. It's speed also lets it revenge kill mons and acts as a late-game sweeper in a pinch.

Sure, it's frail, but Gengar could 2HKO or OHKO them back with its LO-boosted sky-high moves. If pursuit trapping becomes a problem, you're playing Gengar wrong - it is used offensively, Focus Blasting those TTars, Weaviles and Bisharps away.

Klefki: A- -> A - Agree
What's more peskier than a Fairy type with an added Steel (which makes it immune to poison and neutral to steel)? A Prankster keychain. SERIOUSLY, why does a keychain have prankster?

Ranting aside, with its Priority T-wave, it could potentially wreck mons in this fast metagame, proceeding to either lay-up a layer of spikes or act offensively via Play Rough. Faced with a ground mon, it uses magnet rise, wasting a turn for that mon, which means another layer of spikes.

Hydreigon: B+ -> B - Agree
An inferior Latios with a 4x weakness to the ever-present Fairy. Definitely deserves a downgrade. Its much more suited for UU rather than OU. Its mediocre speed and pitiful bulk leaves it open to be revenge killed. Its SpA are okay though - not bad, but not great either.

 

[Flygonial]

THE CURRENT STATE OF ORAS OU: Fast offense with lots of Dragons, Fairies and Steels.

Azumarill: A+ -> S - Agree
With its versatilty (AV, BD or CB), strength that can 2HKO almost the whole OU with it's STAB Play Rough and Waterfall combo, and priority it is definitely a top-tier threat. With AV, it can even take a STAB Thunderbolt and proceed to take out half of her foe's HP. With BD, it could sweep out teams that is not specifically prepared for it.

BD Azum made me lose so much that i went from 1700 to 1400 :(

Ferrothorn: A -> A+ - Strongly Agree
Definitely a top tier wall. With Iron barbs + Rocky helmet combo, it can tank those physical attacks esp with U-turns around and proceed to heal itself back with Leech Seed. It can even 2HKO Hoopa-U, or potentially OHKO after rocks. Its 120 BP Power whip is a guaranteed 2HKO to most waters (manaphy included), while its Gyro Ball is definitely scary against the fast metagame.

Also, the mere fact that most mons and sets carry either a fire-type move or HP fire specifically for it (and to an extent, scizor and other steels) means that it is definitely a scary wall.

Gengar: A+ -> A - Strongly Disagree
Why would Gengar fall when there arent new threats around? Fairies still exists. Its 130-base SpA definitely hurts alot, with great coverage that hits those pesky fairies hard and works wonders as a stallbreaker. It's speed also lets it revenge kill mons and acts as a late-game sweeper in a pinch.

Sure, it's frail, but Gengar could 2HKO or OHKO them back with its LO-boosted sky-high moves. If pursuit trapping becomes a problem, you're playing Gengar wrong - it is used offensively, Focus Blasting those TTars, Weaviles and Bisharps away.

Klefki: A- -> A - Agree
What's more peskier than a Fairy type with an added Steel (which makes it immune to poison and neutral to steel)? A Prankster keychain. SERIOUSLY, why does a keychain have prankster?

Ranting aside, with its Priority T-wave, it could potentially wreck mons in this fast metagame, proceeding to either lay-up a layer of spikes or act offensively via Play Rough. Faced with a ground mon, it uses magnet rise, wasting a turn for that mon, which means another layer of spikes.

Hydreigon: B+ -> B - Agree
An inferior Latios with a 4x weakness to the ever-present Fairy. Definitely deserves a downgrade. Its much more suited for UU rather than OU. Its mediocre speed and pitiful bulk leaves it open to be revenge killed. Its SpA are okay though - not bad, but not great either.

While I don't necessarily disagree with all of your points - or most of them - saying Hydreigon is an inferior Latios isn't really fair. Dark is a far more spammable STAB than Psychic, with no immunities and being able to hit Steel-types neutrally is highly valuable as well. Furthermore, it has far superior coverage to Latios, getting access to moves that Latios would kill for, such as Fire Blast, an actual fighting move, Earth Power, etc. Saying that Hydreigon has pitiful bulk isn't just underselling it - it's downright stupid. 92/90/90 bulk is slightly better than Keldeo bulk, which actually ends up pretty nicely with its numerous useful resistances and immunities. Oh, and do I need to mention that it can 2HKO a good amount of fairies with an LO Flash Cannon or Fire Blast? Realistically though, it doesn't use the latter quite as commonly anymore. Fairies are definitely a thorn in its side, but they aren't necessarily a free card to beat it.

While I don't really agree with Gengar dropping, there are some holes in your argument. There is a new threat around, Hoopa-U, which also happens to be a decent Gengar check, or a soft counter with an Assault Vest. Oh, and it will get Pursuit trapped when you consider that Scarf Tyranitar and Weavile both outspeed it and eliminate obnoxious guessing games so long as there's a bit of prior damage on it - which there most likely will with how often it carries a Life Orb. It can hit them on the switch, but those pokemon are usually coming in on a free switch. Yes, Gengar would most likely have eliminated a target by then and carried its weight, but to say that Pursuit trapping is only an issue with Gengar if you aren't playing it right just isn't true.

Oh, and this is just an extra footnote, but BD Azumarill doesn't always need to be directly prepared for, per say. Faster water-resists are quite common and can contribute to stopping a sweep from it. I will not deny that it definitely needs to be considered, but it's not always that punishing to teams that don't directly prepare.

 

[RichieTheGarchomp]

Alright, i wanna comment specifically on one mon that gives balance trouble.
Just coming back to the metagame, my opinion shouldnt mean much at all. Anyways, I am very torn on if Azu should go to S rank. Depending on its CB set, it has little to no switchins, with mons like Defensive MZor, Amoongus, MVenu, and Skarm being one of the only mons that can tank CB azu hits. Even though Azu can tear through a Stall/Balance team if their checks/walls to azu are gone, it's matchup versus Offense is questionable. Honestly, HO can easily beat wallbreakers, and Azu isnt an exception. Although he does have priority, HO has plenty of options for Azu ranging from Serperior, Rotom W, Specs Raikou, Mega Sceptile, Breloom, MegaMan, Thundurus to an extent, and if we want to go that far, Revenge Band TFlame. HO may have literally few switchins to BandZu (which is the best set) but HO isnt meant to have answers, its meant to beat the shit outta stuff. Using the wrong move with band is a huge problem too, let me put this into perspective. You have a latios out on your Azu. The other player also has a Mega Scizor, lets say. You run for the Knock off or the Play Rough, and now you are stuck into it, while the Scizor can easily SD on you and possibly sweep your entire team. Azu's strong points is having great matchups against Stall (which is probably one of the worst playstyles rn) and Balance, but it really cant keep up with HO. From what i see, i think he fits in A+, i particularly find him having too many flaws to be in a spot meant for mons that literally define the metagame and are feared upon by many teams. Being too slow is kinda bad as Azu doesnt have the best HP for a mon that slow, not as bad as Crawdaunt but still. Like all of its sets, there are glaring flaws. Band is very powerful, but very prediction reliant and can really fuck you up if you mess up. AV is not powerful enough at all and is very very easy to wall on balance, which is totally steering away from why azu wants to be S in the first place. BD is good, i dont have many problems with it, but setting up BD is somewhat hard and even with prio that speed is a big problem. Now, don't think im undergrading Azu, its great and packs a lot of power, but I don't think it has what it takes for S rank. I think he is on par or slightly better then most of the A+ ranks. Thats basically all i wanted to say about azu.

I will agree that Gengar should stay A+ though. From what ive seen, the leading reason why people want this guy to move down is because of Hoopa-U which is odd, as Hoopa U only boasts a 6% usage rating and it really hasnt gained or lost that much at all. This guy has good sets of sets that can be ranged from regular LO to Hex to the rare Destiny Bond. I don't see why you would wanna move it down as it still is a good threat to Stall and Balance like it was awhile back. Pursuit is a problem that has been around for a long time with Gengar, but that cant really be stopped, its just a flaw it has, but even when ScarfTTar and Weavile started coming around, this guy still is in A+. Plus, if it has Sub and predicts a TTar switchin, it can easily Focus blast or switch out for free. Now, im definetly not saying that will always be a situation, but he does have loopholes around Pursuit trappers. That being said, i dont really see it being in the same rank as MMan and TTar. I think hes on par with A+ just like Azu is.

Sorry if any of this sounds stupid, i just came back from a hiatus from OU, played some monotype for a few months, but ive been playing ou for around 3 days so i guess i have some knowledge.

TLDR: I think both should stay where they are.

 

[blank]

Pokemon I sounded off on:

thoughts

Azumarill (A+ -> S): Agree; already gave my opinion on this here.

Ferrothorn (A -> A+): Disagree / rather neutral. Ferrothorn's really good; it has the tools, typing, bulk, and ability to act as a really nice bulky utility Pokemon & it's super nice and easy to fit onto balanced builds. With that said, I don't think it's worthy of A+. This nom was brought up a little while ago, and one of the points brought up against it (iirc) was Skarmory. To explain: why should Ferrothorn be a higher rank than Skarmory? Personally, I still agree with this. While Ferrothorn is slightly better than Skarmory IMO, it's not a whole subrank better. Both of these Pokemon are fantastic bulky steels for balanced / fatter builds, but Skarmory is capable of providing a Ground immunity, it has Roost for a more reliable & efficient recovery option, and it gets Defog in a meta where hazard removal options are SUPER valuable. Yes, Ferrothorn can check offensive Waters (like Azumarill) & other shit I don't feel like naming off better than Skarmory thanks to it's typing. Yes, Skarmory and Ferrothorn aren't SUPER comparable, BUT considering their roles on balance teams, lots of the stuff both of them check, and Pokemon that they compliment / Pokemon that compliment them, they do have enough in common where a comparison isn't too far fetched IMO. Personally, I think both should just stay in A, but if Ferrothorn is gonna move up, I think Skarmory should also be considered too sometime in the near future.

Klefki (A- -> A): Agree; already gave my opinion on this here.

Reuniclus (B+ -> B): Disagree / rather neutral. The recent rise of Weavile has been tough on the blob, and Hoopa's introduction has definitely been a pain for the thing. However, I feel like these things are a double edged sword for Reuniclus. While both these Pokemon obviously put a lot of pressure on Reuni, they've also been pretty big contributing factors in the meta leaning a bit more offensively. This offensive meta is pretty fun for Reuniclus... TR Reuni (which is overlooked a lot IMO) can do great right now. This doesn't mean you have to run Reuniclus on a TR team, but running TR Reuniclus on a rather fat and/or slow balance team can give you a little edge over your opponent right now. Honestly though, Hoopa's introduction alone is a pretty big deal, and Reuniclus dropping is pretty logical. I just wanted to provide a counter argument for the thing to stay in B+ :P.

Azelf (B -> B-): Agree. I pretty much exclusively play HO nowadays, and as much as I love my suicide leads (especially Zelf), they're just not as good as they used to be nowadays. Like many have said, it really DOES make the game 5v6, and that's not good when you wanna cram as much as you can into a team. There are nice SR users for offense like Landorus-T and Garchomp, and while they don't provide the momentum Azelf does, they help check lots of common threats to HO like birds, Metagross, Lopunny, etc. while providing SR that can be used more than once lol. When you CAN fit Azelf / a suicide lead in general on a team, it's really nice, but sadly, the meta isn't in favor of these suicide leads nowadays ;~;.

Nidoking & Nidoqueen (D -> C-/C): Agree for Nidoking, disagree for Nidoqueen. AM's post here about Nidoqueen helped me to kinda form my opinion on this. While it's cool to have a fat SR user in Nidoqueen, I don't think OU really needs that right now. Between these two, Nidoking tends to stand out for his phenomenal breaking abilities, and I personally think this is much more attractive / favorable than the bulk Queen provides in OU.

 

[Martin]

Nidoking is, as far as wallbreakers/balance breakers go, pretty mediocre. Its slow, its frail, its typing gives it weaknesses to four common offensive types (the Ground-, Ice-, Water- and Psychic-types) and it isn't even overly powerful. Sure, its coverage is insane without it even needing Hidden Power. I respect that, and it is part of why it is even ranked in the first place. However, this thing is shredded more by offense than most other wallbreakers and balance breakers are. This is due to the aforementioned problems (barring the power one), and really its coverage only brings it so far, resulting in it only an optimal choice for a wallbreaker on, like, one or two in every fifty-or-so teams. However, that is why it is in D. I don't personally feel that it should move up, as there has been literally no change in the metagame that favors Nidoking - if anything, the recent metagame shift from balanced to offensive makes the metagame even more hostile to Nidoking as it gets completely shredded by said playstyle. As a balance breaker (imo what it can be most accurately called), it is mostly outclassed by multiple Pokémon in various ranks (which I will list under the headings of "high rank", "mid rank" and "low rank" for the sake of comparing it right through the rankings):

• High Rank: Mega Gardevoir, Manaphy, MegaGross, Hoopa-U, Azumarill, Mega Metagross, Mega Medicham and Gengar
• Mid Rank: BandTini, Band Tyrantrum, SF Conkeldurr, Specs Sylveon, Hoopa-C, Mega Swampert, LO Hydreigon, Bandnite, Crawdaunt and Diggersby and bludz
• Low Rank: Megastoise, Staraptor, Entei and Pangoro.

Honestly, that is a long list, and it is a big part of why it is in D as opposed to C- (the same level as Pangoro), as really it is pretty outclassed on, like, 48 of every 50 teams. I have probably even missed a few, as I honestly can't be bothered to go over the rankings again, and I have covered both the special and physical sides of the spectrum to account for the (shitty) physical sets which are awful at balance breaking anyway. This is a big problem for Nidoking, as a balance breaker with great coverage is great until you consider how rarely it will be optimal. It can't come in on anything other than resisted hits and faints (and passive pokemon, but stall is mostly dead now). It is outpaced by a large chunk of the metagame and struggles to take a hit from anything that is moderately powerful and has a way to hit it for at least neutral damage. However, I'm not saying it should be unranked - just that it shouldn't move up.

Nidoqueen, however, I am mostly neutral on - although I have been leaning towards C- since it was ranked (but really its placement is inconcequential to me). Most people in this thread probably know this, but I'll say it for the sake of clarity. Nidoqueen and Nidoking play different roles, and I don't really like when people compare the two as they are not comparable from a competitive standpoint. Sure, they share typing, abilities, name themes, evolutionary lines and most of their movesets, but their stat spreads mean they function differently in battle. Nidoqueen, as AM so aptly stated, is a tank. Specifically, it is a tank which acts as an offensive hazards user. Its access to both Stealth Rock and Toxic Spikes (which Nidoking also has access to) gives it a good niche over other hazard-laying tanks such as Heatran, Tyranitar and Dragalge. Additionally, while it lacks reliable recovery, its bulk is good enough for it to take a hit or two, even enabling it to take certain weak SE hits - such as a non-STAB Ice Beam/Icy Wind or an uninvested Scald. This means that, assuming it doesn't get critted, it will always get at least one hazard up. The best part about Toxic Spikes is that you can lay a different number of layers depending on the archetype of your opposing team (for example, you are better off with one layer v.s. hyper offense). However, you all know how T-Spikes work - so I won't go into it anymore. The key reason that I feel that it has the possibility (not need) to move up is because this flexibility allows it to fit onto a wider range of teams than the current D ranks. Its customisable two/three-type coverage in combination with the ability to carry either one or two types of hazards - depending on the team's needs - allows it to fill a niche that not much else can really fit. Sure, you have the odd SR+Spikes tank out there that can perform something similar, but the pressure provided by Toxic Spikes>Spikes sets it apart as it allows for increased flexibility in your tactics tactics depending on the opponent and its potential to open up moveslots on teammates that may have carried Toxic otherwise to break fatmons like Slowbro - not to mention it providing guaranteed pressure on non-Magic Guard CM users (e.g. to heal up/rest and providing permanent poison for (grounded) Natural Cure users like Celebi/the blobs and Magic Bounce users (namely M-Sab). Anyway, I'm not that adamant about whether Nidoqueen should go up or stay down, but I am adamant about Nidoking staying down.

tl;dr:
Nidoking D-->D
Nidoqueen D-->C-/D

 

[Alfalfa]

Nidoking is, as far as wallbreakers/balance breakers go, pretty mediocre. Its slow, its frail, its typing gives it weaknesses to four common offensive types (the Ground-, Ice-, Water- and Psychic-types) and it isn't even overly powerful. Sure, its coverage is insane without it even needing Hidden Power. I respect that, and it is part of why it is even ranked in the first place. However, this thing is shredded more by offense than most other wallbreakers and balance breakers are. This is due to the aforementioned problems (barring the power one), and really its coverage only brings it so far, resulting in it only an optimal choice for a wallbreaker on, like, one or two in every fifty-or-so teams. However, that is why it is in D. I don't personally feel that it should move up, as there has been literally no change in the metagame that favors Nidoking - if anything, the recent metagame shift from balanced to offensive makes the metagame even more hostile to Nidoking as it gets completely shredded by said playstyle. As a balance breaker (imo what it can be most accurately called), it is mostly outclassed by multiple Pokémon in various ranks (which I will list under the headings of "high rank", "mid rank" and "low rank" for the sake of comparing it right through the rankings):

• High Rank: Mega Gardevoir, Manaphy, MegaGross, Hoopa-U, Azumarill, Mega Metagross, Mega Medicham and Gengar
• Mid Rank: BandTini, Band Tyrantrum, SF Conkeldurr, Specs Sylveon, Hoopa-C, Mega Swampert, LO Hydreigon, Bandnite, Crawdaunt and Diggersby and bludz
• Low Rank: Megastoise, Staraptor, Entei and Pangoro.

Honestly, that is a long list, and it is a big part of why it is in D as opposed to C- (the same level as Pangoro), as really it is pretty outclassed on, like, 48 of every 50 teams. I have probably even missed a few, as I honestly can't be bothered to go over the rankings again, and I have covered both the special and physical sides of the spectrum to account for the (shitty) physical sets which are awful at balance breaking anyway. This is a big problem for Nidoking, as a balance breaker with great coverage is great until you consider how rarely it will be optimal. It can't come in on anything other than resisted hits and faints (and passive pokemon, but stall is mostly dead now). It is outpaced by a large chunk of the metagame and struggles to take a hit from anything that is moderately powerful and has a way to hit it for at least neutral damage. However, I'm not saying it should be unranked - just that it shouldn't move up.

Nidoqueen, however, I am mostly neutral on - although I have been leaning towards C- since it was ranked (but really its placement is inconcequential to me). Most people in this thread probably know this, but I'll say it for the sake of clarity. Nidoqueen and Nidoking play different roles, and I don't really like when people compare the two as they are not comparable from a competitive standpoint. Sure, they share typing, abilities, name themes, evolutionary lines and most of their movesets, but their stat spreads mean they function differently in battle. Nidoqueen, as AM so aptly stated, is a tank. Specifically, it is a tank which acts as an offensive hazards user. Its access to both Stealth Rock and Toxic Spikes (which Nidoking also has access to) gives it a good niche over other hazard-laying tanks such as Heatran, Tyranitar and Dragalge. Additionally, while it lacks reliable recovery, its bulk is good enough for it to take a hit or two, even enabling it to take certain weak SE hits - such as a non-STAB Ice Beam/Icy Wind or an uninvested Scald. This means that, assuming it doesn't get critted, it will always get at least one hazard up. The best part about Toxic Spikes is that you can lay a different number of layers depending on the archetype of your opposing team (for example, you are better off with one layer v.s. hyper offense). However, you all know how T-Spikes work - so I won't go into it anymore. The key reason that I feel that it has the possibility (not need) to move up is because this flexibility allows it to fit onto a wider range of teams than the current D ranks. Its customisable two/three-type coverage in combination with the ability to carry either one or two types of hazards - depending on the team's needs - allows it to fill a niche that not much else can really fit. Sure, you have the odd SR+Spikes tank out there that can perform something similar, but the pressure provided by Toxic Spikes>Spikes sets it apart as it allows for increased flexibility in your tactics tactics depending on the opponent and its potential to open up moveslots on teammates that may have carried Toxic otherwise to break fatmons like Slowbro - not to mention it providing guaranteed pressure on non-Magic Guard CM users (e.g. to heal up/rest and providing permanent poison for (grounded) Natural Cure users like Celebi/the blobs and Magic Bounce users (namely M-Sab). Anyway, I'm not that adamant about whether Nidoqueen should go up or stay down, but I am adamant about Nidoking staying down.

tl;dr:
Nidoking D-->D
Nidoqueen D-->C-/D

I haven't used either of them, but your post regarding Nidoking leaves out a lot of important information about it. Many of these wallbreakers, such as VIctini, Mega Swampert, HYdreigon, Dragonite, etc. have limitations that keep them from breaking particular Pokemon or from being used on a team. For example, Staraptor has a very limited lifespan, Dragonite fails to break through bulky Fairy-types (ie Clefable), and so on (also Mega Swampert is a shitty wallbreaker; it only fits on rain and Omastar literally does the role of a rain wallbreaker far better. Mega Swampert is more of an offensive pressure than a wallbreaking pressure). Sure, they are more consistent than Nidoking, but they are already ranked higher for that reason. That does not necessarily mean that Nidoking automatically is ineffective at its role. While the metagame is transitioning towards a more offensive metagame, you have to keep in mind that balance and stall are still very viable playstyles; they just need to be played with more skill and foresight in order to pressure common threats to such playstyles. This might sound hypocritical, as I personally never used Nidoking, but your arguments suggest you have never used it either, as you seem to be focusing on overspinning the negatives in an effort to keep it down. Sure, Nidoking is pressured by a lot of fast Pokemon, but most wallbreakers ARE pressured by fast Pokemon; those that in general are not pressured enough to be good are usually banned (ie Deoxys and Greninja). I can't speak for any pro-Nidoking supporters, but if you are going to nom it to stay in D Rank, please stop cherry-picking all of the negative arguments.

 

[ShadowMarioGalaxy64]

I might as well talk about Crawdaunt. After breeding one for competitive use, I've gotten around to using it...with much success. I won't lie--it has some serious flaws, hence the Pros/Cons list.

Pros:
- Adaptability from Gen V's Dream World was the boon it needed from the beginning.
- Water/Dark is great Offensively, really only stopped by Whimsicott, Azumarill, Keldeo, Breloom/Chesnaught, Mega Altaria, Hydreigon, Sharpedo, and Toxicroak--that's just me reading down the Viability List, and a few of them barely being run at all. Some of them are actually hit hard even from a resisted Crabhammer. Don't believe me?

252+ Atk Life Orb Adaptability Crawdaunt Crabhammer vs. 240 HP / 0 Def Azumarill: 177-209 (44.1 - 52.1%) -- 16.4% chance to 2HKO
Pretty decent damage done as a Resisted Hit
252+ Atk Life Orb Adaptability Crawdaunt Crabhammer vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Breloom: 177-209 (54.6 - 64.5%) -- 94.5% chance to 2HKO after Poison Heal
Then again...Breloom is frail.
252+ Atk Life Orb Adaptability Crawdaunt Crabhammer vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Keldeo: 161-190 (49.8 - 58.8%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO
Poor Keldeo...
252+ Atk Life Orb Adaptability Crawdaunt Crabhammer vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Whimsicott: 117-139 (36.1 - 42.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Wait, is that maximum investment? Still decent.
252+ Atk Life Orb Adaptability Crawdaunt Crabhammer vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Hydreigon: 161-190 (49.5 - 58.4%) -- 98.4% chance to 2HKO
Don't worry...Superpower is a guaranteed OHKO.
252+ Atk Life Orb Adaptability Crawdaunt Crabhammer vs. 64 HP / 0 Def Mega Altaria: 136-161 (44.2 - 52.4%) -- 20.7% chance to 2HKO
Doesn't sound too bad, but...don't look at the Bulky variant. It's pathetic.

- Base 120 Attack is great, especially when combined with Adaptability. This makes it naturally more powerful than Gyarados (while also having a reliable move to work with its Secondary Typing, while Gyarados would have to stick with...Bounce).
- Access to Aqua Jet and Knock Off, backed by the Attack and Ability, are key to how Crawdaunt works. It has access to STAB Priority and, even scarier, STAB Knock Off, which really puts a serious hurt on many Pokemon.
- Crawdaunt can easily tear holes through Pokemon, potentially 2HKOing the majority of Pokemon.


Cons:
- Water/Dark may be hilarious Offensively, but it sucks Defensively, with weaknesses to Grass, Electric, Fighting, Bug, and Fairy. Electric, Grass, and Fairy are primarily used by Special Attackers, Bug is used equally thanks to Bug Buzz and U-Turn, and Fighting...well, there's Aura Sphere and Missing Blast.
- 63/85/55 Defenses are...awful. The Physical Side is workable, but Specially, you have a better time using Gengar as a wall, no exaggeration.
- Base 55 Speed doesn't compliment the Defenses well. At least have one of the other. Azumarill has workable bulk and a better Defensive Typing to boast. Plus, other Priority Users outspeed Crawdaunt, being able to cripple it quickly.
- Naming the best of the Pokemon mentioned above, Azumarill, Keldeo, and Mega Altaria are huge right now. Breloom is a pretty occasional Pokemon, but it can stop Crawdaunt with a faster Mach Punch.
- Lack of Pursuit. Knock Off+Pursuit is a fantastic guessing game Combination, proven by Bisharp.

Overall:
Crawdaunt is a Pokemon that can punch through tanks. It has the tools to cripple and destroy and the Attack Stat, as well as the Ability, to do it with. The real problem is that no other stat is based around helping it do such a thing, making support almost necessary. Crawdaunt requires Thunder Wave and other hard hitting support to work. It just works better as a core of attackers than a Standalone Attacker. As far as the ranking and possible dropping, I see why it's B. I see why people would want it B-. I'm on the fence, but can currently see why it could happen either way. Me, personally, I will continue to avidly use it and get a feel as to where it should be.

 

[EternalSnowman]

Nidoking is, as far as wallbreakers/balance breakers go, pretty mediocre. Its slow, its frail, its typing gives it weaknesses to four common offensive types (the Ground-, Ice-, Water- and Psychic-types) and it isn't even overly powerful. Sure, its coverage is insane without it even needing Hidden Power. I respect that, and it is part of why it is even ranked in the first place. However, this thing is shredded more by offense than most other wallbreakers and balance breakers are. This is due to the aforementioned problems (barring the power one), and really its coverage only brings it so far, resulting in it only an optimal choice for a wallbreaker on, like, one or two in every fifty-or-so teams. However, that is why it is in D. I don't personally feel that it should move up, as there has been literally no change in the metagame that favors Nidoking - if anything, the recent metagame shift from balanced to offensive makes the metagame even more hostile to Nidoking as it gets completely shredded by said playstyle. As a balance breaker (imo what it can be most accurately called), it is mostly outclassed by multiple Pokémon in various ranks (which I will list under the headings of "high rank", "mid rank" and "low rank" for the sake of comparing it right through the rankings):

• High Rank: Mega Gardevoir, Manaphy, MegaGross, Hoopa-U, Azumarill, Mega Metagross, Mega Medicham and Gengar
• Mid Rank: BandTini, Band Tyrantrum, SF Conkeldurr, Specs Sylveon, Hoopa-C, Mega Swampert, LO Hydreigon, Bandnite, Crawdaunt and Diggersby and bludz
• Low Rank: Megastoise, Staraptor, Entei and Pangoro.

Honestly, that is a long list, and it is a big part of why it is in D as opposed to C- (the same level as Pangoro), as really it is pretty outclassed on, like, 48 of every 50 teams. I have probably even missed a few, as I honestly can't be bothered to go over the rankings again, and I have covered both the special and physical sides of the spectrum to account for the (shitty) physical sets which are awful at balance breaking anyway. This is a big problem for Nidoking, as a balance breaker with great coverage is great until you consider how rarely it will be optimal. It can't come in on anything other than resisted hits and faints (and passive pokemon, but stall is mostly dead now). It is outpaced by a large chunk of the metagame and struggles to take a hit from anything that is moderately powerful and has a way to hit it for at least neutral damage. However, I'm not saying it should be unranked - just that it shouldn't move up.

Nidoqueen, however, I am mostly neutral on - although I have been leaning towards C- since it was ranked (but really its placement is inconcequential to me). Most people in this thread probably know this, but I'll say it for the sake of clarity. Nidoqueen and Nidoking play different roles, and I don't really like when people compare the two as they are not comparable from a competitive standpoint. Sure, they share typing, abilities, name themes, evolutionary lines and most of their movesets, but their stat spreads mean they function differently in battle. Nidoqueen, as AM so aptly stated, is a tank. Specifically, it is a tank which acts as an offensive hazards user. Its access to both Stealth Rock and Toxic Spikes (which Nidoking also has access to) gives it a good niche over other hazard-laying tanks such as Heatran, Tyranitar and Dragalge. Additionally, while it lacks reliable recovery, its bulk is good enough for it to take a hit or two, even enabling it to take certain weak SE hits - such as a non-STAB Ice Beam/Icy Wind or an uninvested Scald. This means that, assuming it doesn't get critted, it will always get at least one hazard up. The best part about Toxic Spikes is that you can lay a different number of layers depending on the archetype of your opposing team (for example, you are better off with one layer v.s. hyper offense). However, you all know how T-Spikes work - so I won't go into it anymore. The key reason that I feel that it has the possibility (not need) to move up is because this flexibility allows it to fit onto a wider range of teams than the current D ranks. Its customisable two/three-type coverage in combination with the ability to carry either one or two types of hazards - depending on the team's needs - allows it to fill a niche that not much else can really fit. Sure, you have the odd SR+Spikes tank out there that can perform something similar, but the pressure provided by Toxic Spikes>Spikes sets it apart as it allows for increased flexibility in your tactics tactics depending on the opponent and its potential to open up moveslots on teammates that may have carried Toxic otherwise to break fatmons like Slowbro - not to mention it providing guaranteed pressure on non-Magic Guard CM users (e.g. to heal up/rest and providing permanent poison for (grounded) Natural Cure users like Celebi/the blobs and Magic Bounce users (namely M-Sab). Anyway, I'm not that adamant about whether Nidoqueen should go up or stay down, but I am adamant about Nidoking staying down.

tl;dr:
Nidoking D-->D
Nidoqueen D-->C-/D

So something that you fail to mention about Nidoking's typing is that it is great for stallbreaking/wallbreaking. Many walls now will carry TWave/Toxic to try to chip down the opponent, both of which Nidoking is immune to. You also really underplay the significance of its coverage as well. Having access to Flamethower, Thunderbolt, IceBeam, EarthPower, SludgeWave and many more moves is amazing, since many defensive cores will sit there and be shredded by Nidoking, For example a FWG core like Heatran, Celebi and Tentacruel can't do anything to Nidoking as it systematically destroys the core. On top of which its typing is neat because it clears away TSpikes which are rising in popularity and its resistance to SR is ever valuable. I am definitely pro Nidoking if you couldn't tell. Its speed tier is an issue, however comparing it to Hoopa-U, they both are relatively slow while boasting pretty good coverage and good power (Hoopa-U is much stronger but this is just an example). Nidoking 2HKO's a large portion of the metagame due to its coverage and even on neutral hits it seems to be very powerful due to SheerForce+LO being so ridiculous (I think 1.7X Multiplier or something). I don't really have an opinion on Nidoqueen as I have never used it, but I do agree that the two shouldn't be shafted together.

Nidoking D --> C-/C

 

[Lhet]

Could the rank definitions be added to the original post (at least for each letter)? People who have been out of it for a while (e.g. me) don't really have them all memorized, so it's hard to know at what point a Pokemon drops from a generic decent filler to a semi-obscure niche filler. (I found them, but it took a little while and was annoying).

 

[Sanger Zonvolt]

Could the rank definitions be added to the original post (at least for each letter)? People who have been out of it for a while (e.g. me) don't really have them all memorized, so it's hard to know at what point a Pokemon drops from a generic decent filler to a semi-obscure niche filler. (I found them, but it took a little while and was annoying).

We had that, and then people would try and use them as justification for half-baked arguments for stuff to go up ranks without going into the mon's role in the meta. Even without descriptions it's pretty simple: the lower the letter grade, the more niche the mon is. We shouldn't really need descriptions to know that C mons are more niche than A or B mons, and we shouldn't be using some weird definition to try and convince people that a B- mon is leagues above a C+ mon.

EDIT:

Then put a disclaimer that the definitions are guidelines to new people shouldn't be used as arguments or something. That shouldn't be an excuse to conceal really helpful information for newcomers; there are enough information barriers for competitive play already.

Yeah, we did that too, and I think there was a larger issue with older users using definitions as arguments. Also, is it really that hard to understand that S > A > B > C > D?