SJCrew ok so I'm at a comp now. I brought up the point about Weavile dropping to some of the guys a couple of times for the sake of discussion, sake of curiosity as in not even a definite. I'll use albacores long ass post to address some points cause it got some relatively high support based on the like count alone.
I do not agree with a Weavile drop at all. And although I kinda do understand why people want it to drop, having it in A+ when it’s such a meta defining and even somewhat centralising Pokemon seems really, really wrong to me. I would much sooner have Bisharp or Hoopa-U drop then Weavile.
There is meta defining stuff even below the A benchmark such as Suicune because defining the meta comes down to your specific roles. For the sake of example you identify threats through the threat itself along with phrases such as "bulky waters" which would encompass things like Manaphy, Slowbro, and Suicune. Bisharp I think is an on and off mon but I think Bisharps team constraint is higher than Weaviles due to the threat level it establishes for its ability to not only set up an SD but have a stronger priority. Bisharp has been good ever since XY and ORAS is going more to the route of using more hazard balances and offenses that Bisharp can capitalize on because its resistant to rocks while able to be dangerous with those hazards in play. People are catching on to how good Hoopa-U is, and you're underselling its diversity and potential like crazy. The scarf set under hazards is good and a popular one in SPL right now, arguably some teams like
reikus in his match vs Ary tramples the type of offensive teams that Ary packs the same ones a lot of people will use. Sadly reiku didnt use the set but it was a simple point to be made how that set alone had it been appropriately been placed on reiku's team would've just dismantled him. The Band and Specs set, when people catch on to the Specs set that is, makes a balances matchup a coin toss as to what move Hoopa is about to hit you with. If you guess wrong which a lot of people do due to unfamiliarity something is going to take 50%+ easy with little effort if not KO you after rocks, a practical example is AV Torn-T KO'd to Psyshock after Rocks for a reference point. Then you have the simple Life Orb set which can be catered to lure in different checks and counters due to its increased and effective movepool. You're really underselling Hoopa-U if you think that Weavile puts a higher constraint than something like Hoopa who can at least pick which match up it wants to hurt unlike Weavile where it necessitates you have SD to break a fat team most times and even then overreliance on a flinch rate that I have found to be a bit exaggerated from time to time.
For now though, the first of these points. I wouldn’t say that Weavile provides no defensive utility. It’s still able to check dangerous sweepers like Lando-T and Altaria with Ice Shard, as well as other weakened Pokemon, which counts as a defensive application. It can also switch into Psychic and even some Dark moves from the likes of like Latios, Starmie and Hoopa-U, as well as special hits in general from stuff like Gengar, Serperior, and Raikou. And yes, you can argue that its reliance on Life Orb makes it unable to actually switch into anything and have it be worth it. But the exact same thing also applied to Greninja too, and that’s never prevented it from being A+ rank, then S rank, then banned, so I don’t exatly see what the problem is. When something is a strong enough offensive threat, its defensive shortcomings barely matter, and I definitely think that’s true for Weavile.
I can go in full length why the Greninja analogy is an enormous stretch and also explain why it was in those lower ranks in the first place based on the order of suspects that took place but it would be another tl;dr that this post will already be and that can be fully explained in its suspect thread that yourself and I along with some of the longer time players were all part of so there won't be much need to go through this outside of shits and giggles for nostalgia. I wouldn't call your idea of defensive utility and or defensive application any of that when I'm positive each example you gave is banking on these large risk v reward concepts where Weavile is about to get the lower end of the stick such as the Latios one where you better pray to whoever those meteors aren't coming down on you, or Starmies Analytic Hydro Pump. Weavile is good at coming in to revenge kill I'll give you that, but that is most definitely not a defensive application.
As for Keldeo being popular, well, that’s always been the case, I don’t really think you can say that Keldeo rising slightly in usage (which I'm not even sure it did) is that much of a significant problem for Weavile when it’s always been a top 5 mon. But more importantly, Keldeo is not actually that great a Weavile counter. It not only can’t really switch in more than once, it also has a 30% chance of not being able to switch in at all due to Icicle Crash flinches. If your only real Weavile answer is Keldeo (which is true for a LOT of teams), you’re probably going to have trouble actually dealing with Weavile whenever you do face it.
The concepts of checks and counters I think is somewhat of a sham to begin with, good for beginners though, but barring the mumbo jumbo AM-esque philosophy if your only counterplay to Weavile is a Keldeo then yes perhaps you deserve to lose to Weavile. Notice how I mentioned counterplay and not counter. You don't have to have a counter to everything on a team to make a good team, it's silly and unrealistic in ORAS and maybe one day the complainers will get over it. You just need the means to handle relevant threats and I can assure you I've seen plenty of good builds in SPL and in general to where Weavile was either a non-issue or at least can be played around.
In fact, Icicle Crash’s flinch rate is pretty key to Weavile’s effectiveness, and I feel like a lot of people unfairly overlook it. A 30% chance to flinch is really huge and makes Weavile much more difficult to handle in practice than on paper. Not much can eat up 3 hits from Weavile and live to tell the tale, so it if it tries its luck and succeeds, that can decide entire battles. And this, combined with Knock Off removing Leftovers from its switchins, and the fact that most Weavile checks lack reliable recovery, enables it to break past its checks on a consistent basis. And thanks to its excellent speed tier and access to priority, once it does this, there’s barely any stopping it from either dealing irreparable damage to the opposing team or just sweeping it outright, SR weakness or not.
30% flinch rate point is valid. 3 hits is valid until you realize a group of mons in the tier fall under that. Most Weavile checks have reliable recovery such as Wisp Zard-X, M-Zor, Alomomola, Suicune, Quagsire, Skarmory, M-Venusaur, and such so this is based on circumstances that you're overstating like it's this crazy behemoth. SR Weakness is big because it's the difference between that Latios in the back running Defog to compensate for that weakness or using another dark type who has a neutrality to rocks or is resistent where Latios can afford another coverage move.
The only answer to Weavile that’s truly immune to all these shenanigans is Mega Scizor, which is admittedly a hard stop to it whose presence makes it literally impossible for Weavile to do anything. But defensive sets are pretty easy to respond to, while offensive MZor gets chipped away by it pretty fast. In fact, it can be KOed by 2 Knock Offs followed by an Ice Shard if it switches in in base form (and if it’s already mega, it’s safe to assume it has already taken damage). So Weavile will almost never be a liability, and it’s capable of putting in a solid amount of work against any non-mega Scizor team. Heck, it can even threaten stall teams that lack MZor. If whatever is sent against it is weakened or gets flinched, it’s probably going to die. Sure, it’s not going to get more than one kill (or two if it’s very lucky), but one unexpected kill is often enough for stall to completely crumble. It’s certainly a bigger potential threat to stall than most of its offense-breaking counterparts which, besides the fact that it completely smashes Lando-T and Garchomp, the go-to bulky glues for offense, sets it apart from them.
First half comes back to my thing about checks and counters in correlation to circumstances so I'll admittedly concede on that one. Stall I think has tons of issues that go beyond flinch rates that doesn't justify it as a good enough reason to state that its matchup against stall is actually good, which in perspective actually isn't. They have a lower damage output than your typical team and as such are more liable to flinches, crits, hax, due to its necessity to win a game on duration a lot of times. The SD Weavile set can punch holes in some defensive squads I'll admit but it really isn't enough of a merit to me to justify it as the stall breaker you make it out to be.
As for the argument that Scarf Jirachi is getting better, well, that is admittedly a good point. However, there’s also a few Weavile checks that are getting worse, specifically because Jirachi is getting more popularity as a Steel-type and is therefore pushing them out of the spotlight. Klefki was already covered on this thread, but I personally think Skarmory and even Mega Scizor have gotten a little bit worse. None of these are deserving of a drop though imo (besides maybe Skarmory, but I have yet to make up my mind on that). But even if I’m wrong and these Pokemon are still as good as ever, people still avoid using both Jirachi and any of these Pokemon because their roles are somewhat redundant. More Jirachi means less of these guys, which, if anything, is good for Weavile, since it would much rather deal with a Steel-type that is weak to Knock Off than one that resists it.
I don't think barring Klefki, and even then slightly, any of those mons has gotten worse that you mentioned and some like M-Scizor I think are pretty damn good. Jirachi is most certainly a solid mon but it gets an unbelievable amount of fan boying based on its scarf set so I agree with that point more or less on your last sentence granted most of the underlying issues are up above and below.
Oh, and there is no way in hell Weavile should be in the same rank as Gengar or Kyu-B, both of which are less splashable, more difficult to use, less likely to outlast their checks, less consistent across playstyles, less influential, and arguably less restricting towards teambuilding, especially with offense being so popular. I legitimately have no idea how anyone can consider either of these Pokemon to be on the same level as Weavile.
This quote right here is the root as to why I think Weavile should drop btw, as in the big big reason you should consider. A+ has two thresholds the higher A+ stuff such as Mega Scizor, Mega Char-X, M-Diancie, Lando-T, you know the big dogs and then some of the lower A+ stuff such as Thundurus, Manaphy, M-Lopunny who are big threats but not always going to put in a crazy amount of work or splashability on teams. Weavile can definitely be in the same rank as Gengar who's Wisp variants screw over every would be answer and switch into it in tandem with its coverage options while taking a dump on those Chomp, Tar, Skarm, Clef balances people have an over dependency on in a lot of tour settings such as OST. It can definitely be in the same rank as Kyurem-B who is arguably to me an A- rank mon but it won't become a realization until a couple of months down the line. It can definitely be in the same rank as something like Tyranitar who Idc what anyone says is such a great mon that provides so much utility to a team and defines the pursuiter role in OU and should be A+ under the support role. It can be in the same rank as Gliscor, Serperior, and most of the other A rank mons, mons that funnily enough some teams and builders haven't learned how to handle even to this day because of their snow balling effects. Some of these such as Tyranitar and Gliscor have more splashability to where they can be used on a variety of teams while maintaining effectiveness against the same variety of teams, with Gliscor being a big tournament staple and TTar being, well, TTar lol. I take into account some sort of relevancy in the tier as well in terms of a mons placement and I think Weaviles effectiveness while still good and can be represented in the A rank as one of its top A rank mons than trying to exaggerate it in the A+ rank where it's pretty evident it's not the most splashable offensive mon like it was a couple months ago. Also have to admit ORAS goes through phases, it's lacking in relevancy now it'll probably be more relevant again soon and the cycle goes on. So yes in my own mental ranking list Weavile is A to me.
