Gen 6 ORAS Ubers Viability Ranking Thread

[PISTOLERO]

approved by Jibaku

Omega Ruby & Alpha Sapphire Ubers Viability Ranking Thread

nice art justinjiaxinghu
​

Rules
~Post intelligently. Posts like "I think pokemon X should be in this tier" will not be tolerated
~No flaming
~Usage statistics may be used to support an argument or a claim, but don't base your ENTIRE argument around them. For example, you can't just say "Pokemon X shouldn't be this tier because they aren't used that often!"
~No talk about editing the OFFICIAL smogon tier lists.

________​

The Ascendant

• 
  Rayquaza-Mega

Too powerful for the Ubers metagame, Mega Rayquaza was banned from the tier, meaning that it is unusable in any competitive Smogon tier. (However, it is still usable in Smogon Doubles Ubers)

S Rank
The titans of the game. They bear massive offensive and defensive capabilities. Pokemon in this tier are extremely diverse, capable of fulfilling multiple roles on both defensive and offensive ends. There is virtually zero opportunity cost in using these Pokemon. They barely require support, if any, from the team and have immense utility to offer.

S+

• 
  Groudon-Primal

S

• 
  Arceus-Normal

• 
  Salamence-Mega

• 
  Xerneas

S-

• 
  Gengar-Mega
• 
  Ho-Oh

A Rank
Reserved for Pokemon with impressive offensive or defensive capability. These Pokemon are typically the first to be considered to fulfill certain roles and have very little opportunity cost. They require little support to function and may have significant utility.

A+

• 
  Arceus-Dark
  
• 
  Arceus-Ghost
• 
  Darkrai
  
• 
  Kyogre-Primal
  
• 
  Latias
• 
  Latios
• 
  Yveltal

A

• 
  Dialga
• 
  Giratina-Origin
• 
  Lugia
  
• 
  Klefki
• 
  Mewtwo
• 
  Mewtwo-Mega-Y

A-

• 
  Arceus-Ground
  
• 
  Arceus-Rock
• 
  Diancie-Mega
• 
  Rayquaza
• 
  Scizor-Mega

B Rank
Reserved for Pokemon with large offensive or defensive capability. They are designed to serve specific roles for a team and may offer valuable utility. They often need certain amounts of support and/or suffer to a degree from opportunity cost.

B+

• 
  Arceus-Fairy
• 
  Arceus-Water
  
• 
  
  Blaziken & Blaziken-Mega
• 
  Deoxys-Attack
• 
  Deoxys-Speed
• 
  Ferrothorn
  
• 
  Genesect
• 
  Gliscor
  
• 
  Groudon
  
• 
  Kangaskhan-Mega
• 
  Mewtwo-Mega-X
  
• 
  Palkia
• 
  Sableye-Mega
• 
  Shaymin-Sky

• 
  Tyranitar

B

• 
  Aegislash
• 
  Clefable
  
• 
  Excadrill
• 
  Jirachi
  
• 
  Kyogre
• 
  Kyurem-White
• 
  Landorus-Therian
  
• 
  Skarmory
  
• 
  Wobbuffet
• 
  Zekrom

B-

• 
  Blissey
• 
  Cloyster
• 
  Greninja
• 
  Sableye

C Rank
Reserved for Pokemon with viable offensive or defensive capability. They have certain niches or utility that allow them to perform in specific roles. Reliant on fairly large amounts of team support to function and minimize their inherent flaws. They may also suffer significantly from opportunity cost to the point of being mostly outclassed.

C+

• 
  Aerodactyl-Mega
  
• 
  Arceus-Grass
• 
  Arceus-Poison
• 
  Diancie
• 
  Ditto
  
• 
  Giratina-Altered
• 
  Metagross-Mega
  
• 
  Scolipede
  
• 
  Tentacruel

C

• 
  Arceus-Dragon
  
• 
  Arceus-Electric
  
• 
  Arceus-Ice
  
• 
  Arceus-Psychic
• 
  Arceus-Steel
• 
  Forretress
  
• 
  Hippowdon
  
• 
  Lucario-Mega
• 
  Slowbro-Mega
  
• 
  Smeargle
• 
  Whimsicott

C-

• 
  Arceus-Fighting
• 
  Arceus-Flying
  
• 
  Deoxys-Defense
• 
  Mawile-Mega
  
• 
  Reshiram

D Rank
Reserved for Pokemon with very little offensive or defensive capability. Barely viable, they are very rarely real considerations for specific roles. Reliant on almost the full team for support while still affected by some of their flaws. They may even suffer from massive amounts of opportunity cost to the point of being outright outclassed.

• 
  Arceus-Bug
• 
  Arceus-Fire
  
• 
  Deoxys-Normal

Chansey Rank
Reserved for Pokemon that are completely outclassed by other Pokemon or are usually liabilities on a team because of the presence of some common Pokemon in the metagame. These Pokemon may also have crippling flaws that ruin any good qualities they do possess. Please do not discuss them.

• 
  Chansey (use Blissey instead)
• 
  Latias-Mega (use Soul Dew instead)
  
• 
  Latios-Mega (use Soul Dew instead)
• Any other Pokemon that has been rejected for an analysis

Have fun discussing!

 

[PISTOLERO]

I have taken the liberty of placing the new additions to the tier into ranks as follows:

• Primal groudon to S
• Primal Kyogre to S
• regular Kyogre to A+
• Latios and Latias to A
• Mega Metagross to A-
• Mega Salamence to A+
• Mega Sableye to B+
• Mega Altaria to B
• Mega Diancie to B- to B+
  
• Mega Latios and Latias to D

________​

I'll start off by explaining some of my reasoning for the preliminary rankings.

Primal groudon to S -> please.

Primal Kyogre to S -> Kyogre was an S-Rank in XY, and Primal Kyogre can revenge kill Primal Groudon, use Calm Mind, and is insanely bulky. Could be an A+ Rank though due to the behemoth that is Primal Groudon. Primal Groudon isn't that good a switchin though, and noone seems to be using Palkia.

Regular Kyogre to A+ -> Choiced sets again face a huge issue in Primal Groudon now, limiting their wallbreaking and sweeping abilities. Defensive Kyogre is also walled by Primal Groudon and gets set up on. Still a very powerful Pokemon though in my opinion.

Latios and Latias to A -> Now that they have their Soul Dew back, both of them are excellent Pokemon that can fit on many different team archetypes, checking all of Kyogre, Palkia and Primal Groudon. Both of them have Defog, allowing them to clear hazards, whilst Latias has Healing Wish to support its team as well. Soul Dew Psyshock 2HKOes Xerneas so they are not particularly Xerneas weak. Still weak to Yveltal however, and they don't appreciate Arceus-Ghost, Arceus-Dark, or Xerneas.

Mega Metagross to A- -> Can check various things, has priority to revenge kill Xerneas and the bulk to take a hit from it at +2. Earthquake, Zen Headbutt, Thunderpunch allow it to beat common switchins. Can even use Stealth Rock if you like. Doesn't like Primal Groudon too much but can still Earthquake it.

Mega Salamence to A+ -> Excellent fast sweeper with huge amounts of power and a huge movepool to take advantage of it. Refresh, Substitute and Roost all work nicely. Can also go defensive with Dragon Tail, Defog, Roost etc to check Primal Groudon and Rayquaza without a Dragon move. Overall a very solid mon and a great choice now that Mega Rayquaza is gone.

Mega Sableye to B+ -> bounces hazards, and has Prankster on the turn it Mega Evolves, meaning it is very versatile. can check Extremekiller, Kangaskhan and other special attackers whilst bouncing hazards, spreading status, knocking off items etc. Completely annihilates Stalltwo too which is nice, but is Xerneas bait. Might move this down to B as you need to choose which defensive stat to invest in to comfortably beat Stealth Rock setters.

Mega Altaria to B -> Once it has Mega Evolves it walls Palkia, Zekrom and other Dragons quite nicely. Can go offensive with Dragon Dance, can go both physical and special with Return or Hyper Voice. Provides Heal Bell support, and can act as a wall or even a defensive win condition. Still slow, can be revenge killed, and doesn't really appreciate Primal Groudon's existence. You can use Pixilate Body Slam if you like, as it lets you spread paralysis!

Mega Diancie to B+ -> After talking with Jibaku he told me that Fireburn used it to great effect in destroying Stall teams, and I can see why. Checks Ho-Oh and Yveltal, outspeeds Palkia, can hit Groudon with Earth Power, and has the ever-so-useful Magic Bounce to stop hazards. Provides both offensive and defensive synergy and utility, and has Heal Bell and Stealth Rock too. Only at B+ because the turn it Mega Evolves it loses bulk and is still slow, and has a lot of common weaknesses.

Mega Latios & Latias to D -> why would you use these instead of Soul Dew? To take Knock Offs better?

________
​

After short discussion with Jibaku I broke the Mega Evolution grouping, as this is something that has confused people in the past. As a result, Kangakshan and Charizard have been removed, and Mega Mewtwo X has been moved to A-Rank.

For now, it would be great if we could only discuss the upper ranks, S and A+, and also any opinions on new Megas. Something I'm sure we can all 100% agree on is that Primal Groudon is a sure S-Rank, but it would be best to focus on said new additions than to argue about whether Arceus-Fighting is C- or D Rank, for example.

________​

I will only be caretaking this thread, and will not be arbitrarily moving Pokemon up or down based on my own opinions. Fireburn was the person editing the old thread I believe, so I will ask him before moving anything up or down. Hopefully this means that the thread will be updated more frequently as I have more time to do so than Fireburn does due to his multiple other responsibilities as tier leader. The viability threads are among my favourite threads to read on Smogon so rest assured that I'll take good care of this :)

 

[Lemonade]

Hi, this is a serious petition to rename S-rank to God-rank, mainly because S does not come before A in the alphabet and Japan is seriously Stupid for making this a thing. God is also fitting because it's Ubers yo, I guess that makes Mega Ray like Goku or something.

At the moment I tentatively question Primal Ogre, it doesn't really feel quite the same level as the other Mons and it doesn't really feel like you can slap it on any old team and make it still perform well.

 

[Joryn]

Nice quad posting scrub, I'm agreeing with Lemonade. Primal Ogre shouldnt be S rank tbh. Maybe A Mid at most

Edit: And why isnt Gothitelle S Rank? It has STag hello? too op pls ban

Edit: PISTOLERO i was kidding about goth you silly goose

 

[Halcyon.]

I like Primal Kyogre a lot, but I don't think it deserves S rank (and in the same vein, regular Kyogre is also not very good right now). It's a free switch into Primal Groudon, which is easily the best Pokemon in the tier, as well as Latios and Latias, which can do serious damage back to it with Psyshock even if you predict a switch and Calm Mind or Ice Beam. I think it's a really good option for teams that want a way to power through balance, but it's probably A rank at best imo. Normal Kyogre is nearly unusable in my opinion. Scarf versions are bad, since Groudon just switches in for free. Specs versions are pretty much outclassed by Primal Kyogre, I think. SDef is also a free switch-in for Groudon, but it's slightly more excusable since it's still a nice check to a lot of other Pokemon. Still not that great though. I would drop Kyogre even further than it already has, but that's just me. Finally, I think Latios and Latias should be A+. They nuke the entire tier, set up Calm Minds, Defog, check both Primals, provide setup or healing to a teammate, and are generally really good at the moment. Unfortunately, Xerneas is still really common, and they don't do enough to it with Psyshock to force it out again, which I think is the main reason they shouldn't be S rank.

 

[Mr.378]

One thing I question is that now that the megas are ranked separately is Mewtwo being S-Rank. The reason I feel he was such a solid S-rank is that he was treated as composite and all three forms were treated as one Pokemon. Now that the pokemon are ranked separately that implies that each form is being judged on their own merit. With that I think that Mewtwo and Mewtwo-Y aren't good enough to achieve S-Rank on their own. I would move them to A+ Rank instead.

 

[PISTOLERO]

Hi, this is a serious petition to rename S-rank to God-rank, mainly because S does not come before A in the alphabet and Japan is seriously Stupid for making this a thing. God is also fitting because it's Ubers yo, I guess that makes Mega Ray like Goku or something.

At the moment I tentatively question Primal Ogre, it doesn't really feel quite the same level as the other Mons and it doesn't really feel like you can slap it on any old team and make it still perform well.

I agree with you in that Primal Kyogre should maybe be moved down to A+, but as Kyogre was S-Rank in the XY thread I do not want to move it down too quickly. This will probably be the thing most discussed in the next couple of days.

Nice quad posting scrub, I'm agreeing with Lemonade. Primal Ogre shouldnt be S rank tbh. Maybe A Mid at most

Edit: And why isnt Gothitelle S Rank? It has STag hello? too op pls ban

Triple posting scrub, count again, the edit button and delete button are amazing! As for Gothitelle, the fact is that it basically doesn't have a lot of targets to trap, and ORAS has shifted to be more physical in my opinion. The offensive nature of the metagame means that Gothitelle has less things to trap and therefore is not as good as it was. Once we get to A- Rank discussion I will write why I actually think Gothitelle should drop down to B.

I like Primal Kyogre a lot, but I don't think it deserves S rank (and in the same vein, regular Kyogre is also not very good right now). It's a free switch into Primal Groudon, which is easily the best Pokemon in the tier, as well as Latios and Latias, which can do serious damage back to it with Psyshock even if you predict a switch and Calm Mind or Ice Beam. I think it's a really good option for teams that want a way to power through balance, but it's probably A rank at best imo. Normal Kyogre is nearly unusable in my opinion. Scarf versions are bad, since Groudon just switches in for free. Specs versions are pretty much outclassed by Primal Kyogre, I think. SDef is also a free switch-in for Groudon, but it's slightly more excusable since it's still a nice check to a lot of other Pokemon. Still not that great though. I would drop Kyogre even further than it already has, but that's just me. Finally, I think Latios and Latias should be A+. They nuke the entire tier, set up Calm Minds, Defog, check both Primals, provide setup or healing to a teammate, and are generally really good at the moment. Unfortunately, Xerneas is still really common, and they don't do enough to it with Psyshock to force it out again, which I think is the main reason they shouldn't be S rank.

I agree that both Kyogre and its Primal form's ranks are very shaky, so I encourage more well-thought out discussion like this! As to why Lati@s are not A+ Rank, the combination of Yveltal, Arceus-Ghost, Arceus-Dark, Xerneas, and the fact that Primal Groudon can run Dragon Claw means that in my opinion they were not quite A+ Rank worthy. Of course this can change!

One thing I question is that now that the megas are ranked separately is Mewtwo being S-Rank. The reason I feel he was such a solid S-rank is that he was treated as composite and all three forms were treated as one Pokemon. Now that the pokemon are ranked separately that implies that each form is being judged on their own merit. With that I think that Mewtwo and Mewtwo-Y aren't good enough to achieve S-Rank on their own. I would move them to A+ Rank instead.

I will be dicussing this with Fireburn shortly, I think that Jibaku's recommendation to split the Mega Evolutions from their base forms was a good one however. I do agree that Mewtwo and Mega Mewtwo Y are probably not S-Rank Pokemon, and probably fit into A+ more, and I also think that Mega Mewtwo X should probably be in B+ Rank to be honest.

 

[Joryn]

I request moving Ditto to A Rank due to it being able to literally fuck teams if an opp is silly enough to setup. Also factoring in most teams are HO, Ditto is a fun way of saying fuck you :]

 

[MMII]

Why does every random user stick random polls in all their random threads? It's so horribly obnoxious and pointless.

 

[Jibaku]

Disclaimer: The following post is mostly theoretical stuff and I haven't played a lot of ORAS. Most of these will come from either observations or just theory

Arceus-Poison, Arceus-Electric, and Arceus-Water to B: My name is Primal Groudon
Kyogre-P to A+: I don't really think we should put this in S. Even though its ability to override PDon's is strong, it's still somewhat PDon bait if Primordial Sea gets reversed. Lack of physical bulk + missing Leftovers recovery, and Lati@s being there also gives it a rough time in the metagame. Note that +1 Ice Beam OHKOes Latios after SR, however.
Kyogre to B+: The former god of Ubers has fallen quite drastically. Has a lot of the issues that POgre has, and it lacks the ability to clear Desolate Land, making it an even bigger PDon bait. Also, Drizzle support is a lot less relevant, as even an enemy POgre can clear it.
Arceus-Ground to A: One of the most solid PDon checks in the game and highly appreciates the Kyogre nerfs. It can tear through PDon's weaker SpD with Judgment or run a Swords Dance set knowing that Scarf Ogre won't be there to ruin its day anymore.
Mewtwo-Y / Mewtwo to A+: Still incredibly strong of course, but Primal Groudon does keep it in check somewhat (Psystrike still 3HKOes 252/0 though). Sableye getting some use also somewhat dents its power.
Groudon to B: Idk if there's a reason to use this over PDon, but if there is, it has to take advantage of Groudon's lack of Ground weakness. Or Life Orb providing it with more damage than PDon.
Gothitelle to B+ (or less): More physical threats coming in and the fact that PDon smashes most of the things it's supposed to stop anyways noticeably cuts its viability. Still a tagger and has devastating potential, but the team slot can often be used for something else IMO.
Groudon-P to above Extremekiller: The most defining mon in ORAS shouldn't be 2nd ._.

 

[PISTOLERO]

Having taken Jibaku's comments into consideration, I have created an S+ Rank for Primal Groudon. It really is the most metagame-defining Pokemon that Ubers has ever had, maybe even at a higher level than DPP Kyogre and XY Xerneas were, and we would have had Mega Rayquaza in S+ too were it not banned.

This also means that we can get round the fact that the Pokemon are listed alphabetically and not by viability, because opening the subtiers up to being ordered by viability would probably generate a huge amount of pointless discussion. This could mean that an S- Rank is introduced, although I'm not really sure what we would put in there, so I might change S+ Rank to Primal Groudon Rank. Thoughts?

 

[Fireburn]

Just don't update it too often. ;] Also don't triple post in the future you nerd...

Anyways gonna comment on some of your initial rankings:

Mega Diancie B+ -> A-: This is a kind of a big jump but this mon is honestly really good, it's a great Magic Bouncer that slots well into offensive teams. With STABs + EP and dual 160 offenses it lays the hurt onto a lot of Pokemon, and it can serve as an adequate bird check (50/110/110 is not THAT bulky so probably one time at best) if needed. It has a lot of utility in its fourth move as it really only needs STABs and EP so you can run stuff like Protect to guarantee a safe Mega Evolution, Calm Mind to break stall, Rock Polish to sweep offense, or Stealth Rock/Heal Bell as great utility. It can fit on defensive teams too; it does have much less bulk than its base forme but 110 Speed and Magic Bounce make up for it if you can give it Wish support (Rest/Talk/Heal Bell/Diamond Storm|Rock Slide might also work fine). I really like this thing, one of the best new Megas imo.

Mega Metagross A- -> somewhere in B: Too high imo. It is a fine and dandy check to Latis + Xern + Mega Salamence (kind of), but it also loses hard to a lot of common stuff like Primals, Ho-Oh, Yveltal, Wisp Arceus, etc. and isn't all that great of a sweeper since it has pretty severe 4MSS. This means it needs a fair amount of support from teammates to cover its problems, and I don't think it offers enough in return to justify A rank.

Mega Sableye: IDK how I feel about this mon yet, but I think its base forme should be ranked together with the Mega. You can get some nice utility out of Prankster before Mega Evolving. I'd probably merge their ranks and put them at B.

Mega Blaziken: A+ -> A: It has more checks now (PDon since Fire resist, Mega Mence, Mega Altaria I guess) and Giratina-O is really increasing in popularity which is a bummer for our chicken friend. It is still a destructive mon but more checks + fragility means its not AS good as it was before.

Landorus-T A+ -> A or A-: Primal Groudon gives it enormous competition for sweeping/tanking roles and it can't check a lot of the new stuff efficiently. Primal Groudon can nuke it with sun-boosted Lava Plume/Overheat, Mega Mence just uses its 130 Defense + Roost to brute force its way through it, Latis don't care too much. Still has a solid niche but I don't think its good enough to be A+ rank anymore.

Kyogre-Primal: S -> A+: Shouldn't be S but I feel like a lot of people are underestimating it. CM + 3 Atks is an extremely good weapon against balanced and stall teams, +1 Blizzard goes right through Latis and hurts Primal Groudon a lot, also at +1 not even Blissey and Ferrothorn can stand against it since Origin Pulse 2HKOes them. Primordial Sea also prevents it from being completely screwed over by Primal Groudon, which means it can still run bulky sets if needed. Not being able to run Scarf is a bummer though.

Groudon A -> B: It can run a distinctive phys def. support set that isn't directly outclassed since it lacks a Ground weakness, making it more effective against things like other Primal Groudon and EKiller. Other than that, its almost 100% outclassed by its Primal forme.

Kyogre S -> B+: I agree with Jibaku.

Arceus-Ground B -> A: Incredible offensive check to Primal Groudon and really loves the fact things like Kyogre and Water Arceus were nerfed so much. SD is still great and CM is also very good if you have a way to check Ho-Oh reliably.

Arceus-Dark B -> A-: With Giratina-O gaining popularity + Latis coming back + Ghostceus being a more attractive option for an Arceus forme than it was previously due to a lot of other ones getting nerfed hard, I think Darkceus is a lot more useful nowadays.

Also these aren't A+ but holdovers from XY that need to be corrected:

Arceus-Water A- -> B-: Primal Groudon 100% walls both of its old sets and Latis kinda stole its niche of being a Kyogre check that can Defog, and with Choice Kyogre being so scarce nowadays its not even that good at checking the whale anymore. It needs Earth Power to not get wrecked by Primal Groudon but it also needs Ice Beam/Wisp to not get wrecked by Mega Salamence, either way you're gonna die to something really nasty. I don't want to knock it to C since its early but this thing really isn't that great anymore. We knew thee well. :(

Arceus-Electric A- -> B-: Primal Groudon and Latis say hi. Also Groundceus is loads better now which sucks so hard for this mon.

Arceus-Poison A- -> B: It's not AS screwed by PDon since it can actually fit Earth Power on its Calm Mind set, and checking Xern well is still a big deal, but Latis + Groundceus being lots better make its life pretty tough.

Finally, I know you already did this but I want to explain why I think its appropriate:

Groudon-Primal S -> S+: Power-wise its on par with the other S-Rank Pokemon, the main reason I am suggesting it for S+ is because you can put it on literally every kind of team and it does work. Hyper Offense, Bulky Offense, Balanced, Stall, Semistall, Trick Room, Sticky Web... Primal Groudon fits on literally every archetype and it fills so many roles in one Pokemon that it is extremely difficult to justify not using it if you have the opportunity to do so. It doesn't even overlap weaknesses with other Ground-types because of Desolate Land canceling the Water weakness. Don't get me wrong, it is definitely beatable and nowhere near Mega Rayquaza levels of unstoppable - but the fact it defines the metagame so much and can fit on any team makes me think we should consider setting it apart. Very few teams would not benefit from having Primal Groudon on it.

 

[Toshhy]

Jirachi is seriously an underrated Pokemon. It checks fairy types, some variants of Arceus, completely walls the latis, set SR and spread paralysis and flinch opponents to death. It's a steel type which is always something nice to have on balance and it just dares Mega Diance to come in to bounce back it SR, iron head completely annihilates it. And it has the coveted Healing Wish.

Just wanted to get that out of the way, supposed to talk about high rank Pokemon so I'll talk about one of the top Arceus forms right now, Arceus Ground.

Arceus Ground is definitely a very good Pokemon it can ohko Primal Groudon with minimum investment after SR and checks Zekrom nicely. It support set allows it to do the aforemention plus keeping hazard control with defog and can use Will-O-Wisp or Ice Beam to check certain physical threats such as Mega Salamence, Rayquaza and Ekiller. The support set also wins against Dialga and Diance (Mega and regular) and ensures they don't get up SR most of the time. Can use both special set with CM and physical set with SD to good effect and have reliable recovery. Enables user to compress multiple roles. I would give this Pokemon a minimum ranking of A.

 

[orch]

mewtwos to A/A+: pdon pretty much nullified stalltwo set, which was the primary defensive niche for stalltwo. although, it's still a powerful mon that deserves respect.
remove smeargle and shuckle from ranking: they should've never been ranked due to how bad they were. but lati@s is just the final nail in the coffin. sticky doesn't even have any mon to abuse with anymore.

e:
xerneas to s+: still the best win con in the game with incredible support options that can mindlessly tossed into any team and win games.

 

[Inspirited]

pKyogre M2 MMY -> A+: PKyogre for all the reasons stated earlier in the thread. Mewtwo (stalltwo in particular) now has another extremely high ranked physical attacker that can get passed it (not easily though). Ghostceus, Yveltal, and Gira-O have also gotten better in this meta which hurts both Mewtwo formes quite a bit.

Gira-O->A+:This thing now has a new niche as a Primal Groudon check. It did receive new competition from the Eon Twins in this, but unlike them, Gira-O is not 2HKOed by Stone Edge from don, forcing it to run Dragon Claw it wants a 14% to 2HKO Gira. Gira also checks the Eon Twins easy after a little prior damage which is something to look out for. It is still the best offensive Defog user in the game right now which, and still retains its niches of checking Mewtwo and E-Killer while gaining a few more. What should have been solid A in XY should probably be A+ now. It also pairs nice with PDon, making it fit quite a few teams even though its old partner, Dialga, was nerfed due to PDon's existance.

Ray -> A: New, stupid powerful STAB, with better offensive typing than V-Create, gave this thing a lot of leeway imo. Extreme Speed still gives it large amount of utility while the new Dragon Ascent does stupid amounts of damage / KOes to everything that doesn't resist it without the nasty Speed drop V-Create had. Even without its Mega Evolution, this thing still breaks open so much of the meta that keeping it in A- is heresy.

remove smeargle and shuckle from ranking: they should've never been ranked due to how bad they were. but lati@s is just the final nail in the coffin. sticky doesn't even have any mon to abuse with anymore.

Sticky is still fine with how strong Darkrai and Yveltal are in this metagame. Primal Kyogre loves Sticky Web and with the two I mentioned being able to punish the way they do, the lati player needs to be super careful about when they come in to Defog. Not to mention Yveltal is still a team shredder on webs.

 

[orch]

Sticky is still fine with how strong Darkrai and Yveltal are in this metagame. Primal Kyogre loves Sticky Web and with the two I mentioned being able to punish the way they do, the lati player needs to be super careful about when they come in to Defog. Not to mention Yveltal is still a team shredder on webs.

yveltal and darkrai are also very strong vs sticky teams as well, and i don't see how they benefit from sticky... yveltal have a strong priority and darkrai has such high speed that sticky is p much useless. pogre is checked by latis and gets defogged by latis. yveltal is a team shredder on any team archetype- can you explain exactly why yveltal would need sticky support? i think that yveltal would benefit more from a mon that actually can do something beyond setting webs.

 

[Inspirited]

yveltal and darkrai are also very strong vs sticky teams as well, and i don't see how they benefit from sticky... yveltal have a strong priority and darkrai has such high speed that sticky is p much useless.

Darkrai benefits by being able to outrun Scarf Xern and Mewtwo, both big factors so useless isn't the best way to describe its niche on webs. Darkrai also makes the game essentially 5 v 5 to make up for your webs user.

pogre is checked by latis and gets defogged by latis.

252+ SpA Kyogre Blizzard vs. +1 248 HP / 0 SpD Latias: 180-212 (49.5 - 58.4%) -- 98.8% chance to 2HKO
I wouldn't say its Defog bait for these two. They are forced to recover or attack if Kyogre is weakened or else they risk being KOed themselves. I am liking Blizzard on Kyogre due to don being a thing and Ice Beam being weak as ever. Shuckle is great here since it can set webs multiple times, or you can wait to set webs, should you use Smeargle, until the Eon Twin is gone (another reason why having Darkrai or Yveltal on webs is nice).

yveltal is a team shredder on any team archetype- can you explain exactly why yveltal would need sticky support? i think that yveltal would benefit more from a mon that actually can do something beyond setting webs.

Yveltal likes webs slowing down Xerneas since O-Wing is a 2HKO and you no longer have to risk a potential Speed tie / being plain outsped by standard Scarf should you run proper creep.

Edit: Xenforo, could you stop being discriminatory against .pngs... Thx

 

[Toshhy]

Late game Darkrai is basically unstoppable with Sticky Web support.

In general, I think Darkrai is one of the best late game sweeper, it shines even more on sticky given that you can keep it up of course. Whereas, Ekiller needs his teammates to wear down the plethora of checks ranging from Yveltal and Lugia to burn inducers, nothing against Ekiller still a big fan of it, but not sure if it belongs in S-Rank.

 

[Hack]

Brief comments on S and A ranks:

• 
  Obvious S+ is obvious.

S

• 
  Yeah it should probably stay in S for now, it's still pretty good at what it does and only gained one new check in Mence. Decline of many prominent wisp users like Waterceus, Stalltwo is good for it so it evens out pretty nicely.

• 
  Idk, I feel it needs to be in the same rank as Mence, both are just as viable. To be noted is that the bulky offense meta doesn't suit Gengar at all- it has trouble KOing shit or living when it 2hkos. Can still trade but I'm unsure how good material reducing HO strats are at the moment. So yeah I'd say either A+ or Mence to S (A+ seems reasonable).
  
• 
  A+, it's good at forcing out some pDons and puts a lot of pressure on balance with pDon to open up for a Xern clean, though these teams can usually check you without resorting to that mon by using a Lati.

• 
  Good but lacks the Stalltwo set which was the best set in XY. A+ or A, it's LO set is strong as always.
  
• 
  Mewtwo-Y faces more opportunity cost and is certainly not more viable than Mence/Gar which means it can't stay in S since I'm trying to be consistent. Still fast and führious and pretty good so A+.

• 
  Stays in S, it's the best special attacker and the best set up sweeper. It forces pGroudon to invest in bulk and thereby defines the meta together with it. Sweeping is hardly out of the question just because you got a sick check now- there are many ways to exploit pDons lack of recovery to bring it in range.

A+

• 
  It stays A+, it has few weak points and checks latis fairly nicely.
  
• 
  A- it's a fairly good cleaner i guess but Giratina-O is looking good and Mence is out there. Did this really get Ice Punch or not? Obviously that changes stuff a bit, but it's still worse.
  
• 
  A or A-, though I might be too nice. It's specially defensive set is pretty much outclassed by primal Groudon except if you run the sub optimal shuca berry which helps you do one thing pDon can't- checking Mence. If I were to use this, it would be on a team where I decided to not use SR pDon.
  
• 
  B+ max, I'd say B. What if every team in XY had a Gastro? Obviously this isn't entirely the case since Pdon hasn't got recovery- but it can't be frozen/hp grassed as either. And yeah scarf can clean up late game when you removed don? my ass, you'll just run into latias/latios.
  
• 
  A- it's big niche is stopping RP don (blades, edge, claw) but it loses badly to support variants with lava plume.

• 
  B+ it's niche as a Kyogre check is diminished as it can't check CM+3 pogre well at all. Latis gives you an offensive answer for this. Feels like really weak to try breaking more bulky teams with when there's much better alternatives, and it doesn't compress many roles unlike the aforementioned Latis who defogs, pivots on ground moves etc.
  
• 
  A+ or S it's amazing. Doesn't have many weak points, it's hard to revenge kill and rather easy to set up due to great bulk. It compresses your balanced teams rather nicely with the ground immune and intimidate prior to mega, the former allowing you to use this as a pdon check to a small extent, while the latter allows you to handle Ekiller.
  
• 
  A or A+ is probably good for this. Hasn't per se gotten better but the defensive set seems much worse due to the fact it can't really handle offensive Pdon and Mence well. I'm kinda unsettled to be honest- sucker punch and psychic immune is amazing for latis though. Also is ground immune which is very nice.

A

• 
  I feel A+ here should be correct, though it's kinda weird I guess. Darkrai hasn't per se gotten anything new and Mega Diancie is a good counter. But still I feel fast Dark Void is more important than ever, seeing as you can take very troublesome mons like Pdon or Mence out of commission. The decline of scarfers is definitely suiting its style.
  
• 
  I don't see what this does that is so great? A-
  
• 
  A- screens set is cool. GL with keeping up dual hazards when the best defogers are Latis and Giratina-O.
  
• 
  Stays A though A+ arguments can be made. Sneak is amazing for Latis, Mewtwo, Gengar, Deox, Defog is strong, checks RP pDon once, checks Mence once, checks Ekiller once etc. Obviously a solid mon that just has a flaw of trying to do too many things at once with no recovery.
  
• 
  Not too cool, I never believed this to be good in XY either. Go A- since it can still help "classic sun" (Groudon+Ho-oh+Latias+Mega Blaze+Ekiller+Filler, there you I made you a team) powering up Ho-oh/Blaze at times, as well as checking other pDons and of course Ekiller/Mence fairly nicely.
  
• 
  Defog is fkn ez with Latis, A+ this, it has good wallbreaking capabilities still and matches up rather well vs Latis, defensive Pdon, Giratina-O and other stuff.
  
• 
  It's good, it probably should just stay A for now.
  
• 
  A+ or even S, more detailed explaination coming sometime
  
• 
  same goes here
  
• 
  Has an interesting case of being shit mediocre, it can now never run a truly optimal set- Latis walls kick/strike/beam, Xerneas very prevalent, going all physical mandates stone edge but will still be weak to mence. Giratina-O is a solid and very viable universal answer as well. A-

A-

• 
  Got shit, B-, Pdon mostly but also Latis who CMs up 1v1 and kills this.
  
• 
  Got shit2, C+, worse than Eleceus since Latis are even more troublesome to this well (can't afford that much speed to jab it before it destroys you)
  
• 
  Got shit3, C+, pretty similar to Poison, CM pOgre+Latis+pDon are always disgusting to face.
  
• 
  Idk I guess it's as good as Lando-T so it stays here in A-
  
• 
  Lol, C+. Look at the viable mons above this. Now look back at this. Now look at the viable mons again. To put it short meta is more physical and the special threats that are still relevant are stronger than before. The lack of viable Defog Arceus is its downfall.
  
• 
  A probably, it's disgustingly good at stopping the wide array of physical sweepers that this meta have. Latis provide defog support rather nicely.
  
• 
  Idk really, but A- really high for a mon that is strictly speaking less viable than the following megas: Salamence, Gengar, Blaziken, Mewtwo-Y, Mewtwo-X and imo Kanga and Scizor as well. B+ max
  
• 
  Stays A-, it has a great offensive STAB with power and all but it's kinda slow for a relatively frail/LO dependent mon and doesn't provide much synergy.
  
• 
  Should not be underestimated. Traps Latis, checks Xern better than ever now that HP Fire is less common, Toxic helps vs threats like Ho-oh, Mence and Pdon. Ekiller doesn't run that much fire anymore so you just got yourself an okay back up for that as well. It has some notable flaws and opportunity cost so it should stay A- for now.
  
• 
  Fuck this garbage mon. B+

Some other notes:

-Sticky web sucks and the users are obviously taking the fall for that.
-Mega Latis should be relegated to E-rank so no one brings up useless comparisions and discussion about them.
-I don't understand why Fightceus deserves to be the worst Arceus aside Bug and Ice.
-Speaking of Ice, it's not per se worse than some formes like Flying.
-Darkceus is good, discuss that more.

 

[ApplepieFTW]

arc-rock for b+ this mon got quite a bit better, though pdon's presence hurts it a bit, its just so nice having a good answer to ho-oh. ho-oh is just so good with viable bouncers and defog support out the roof. its also good for checking yveltal without being a fairy, which is nice for synergy/type redundancy. it still does a good amount to offensive groudon sets so its not pure set-up bait. rock-stab is pretty nice offensively (got a lot better too), and it can viably run cm as well. defog sets free up a move on lati's for e.g calm mind/hp fire.

I think diancie is fine where it is atm, and I agree with arceus dark in a-mid because it just checks common stuff nicely. counters ghosteus, giro and latis and breaks stall as well. its also a check to yveltal which isnt a fairy. its fairy weakness is somewhat mitigated by primal groudon's ubiquity.

e: blaze is kinda bad because primal don checks it really well. giro is really common, and so are latis. this means it has to run knock, which means it cant really break trough many things. its really prone to getting revenged too. ray also checks it which is sad.

 

[PISTOLERO]

Alright so after a rollercoaster of fantastic posts from everyone these are the ranking changes that I have come up with after reading everyone's opinions, they are pretty quick and dirty.

Regular Kyogre --> A-. It's just not good anymore, but I think that dropping it all the way down to B is too much too fast.

Primal Kyogre --> A+, it is still very solid, Primal Groudon is not a 100% stop to it like some people think it is, Calm Mind is strong etc.

Gengar --> A+, solid trapper, but Mega Evolution competition, Salamence is amazing, everything is fatter like Hack said.
Mewtwo and Mega Mewtwo Y --> A or A+, belong together as they are resonably similar, Stalltwo is less good, Primal Groudon checks both zzz.
Xerneas --> Stays S, doesn't go to S+, got another check which should literally be used on every team, but it does force Primal Groudon to run a lot of bulk. Primal Groudon is a fantastic offensive partner to it too of course.

Blaziken --> A-, Giratina-O, Primal Groudon resists Fire, Mega Salamence takes it, Mega Evolution competition etc. No Ice Punch after all RIP :(
Dialga --> A, Primal Groudon (I see a theme here) but still a solid SR setter, can still LO Draco Groudon I guess.

Palkia --> A-, not premier check to Kyogre anymore, Primal Groudon immune to Hydro, no Defog etc. Dropping to B+ is too much for now IMO, RIP my favourite Pokemon :(
Darkai --> A+, sleep is very nice, no more scarfers, etc, see Hack's post

Deoxys-A & -S --> A-, solid Magic Bouncers now, can still be anti-led etc.

Groudon --> A-, Still solid against SD EQ Rayquaza, EQ Extremekiller, etc. Huge opportunity cost though :(

Landorus-T --> A-, great against physical Primal Groudon but gets blasted by Overheat / Fire Blast / Lava Plume.

Ho-Oh --> A+, Defog Lati@s, can beat up on Lati@s, takes Groudon without Stone Edge.

Arceus-Electric, Water, Poison --> B-, Hello Primal Groudon zzz

Lugia --> A, Defog is easier to provide, takes Salamence, Groudon etc with Multiscale

Gothitelle --> B-, what is there to trap anymore....

Latias and Latios --> A+, Defog is amazing, Memento/Healing Wish is amazing, they check Kyogre/Groudon/etc, not really Xerneas weak. Still get Sucker Punched, and are weak to Arceus-Ghost/Dark. Please discuss more, I.E. should they be in S- Rank? :)

Mega Metagross --> B, Mega Competition, has trouble with Ho-Oh/Groudon/Kyogre, has Pursuit, Bullet Punch and other things though
Arceus-Dark --> A, CM Arceus not blocked by Primal Groudon, eats Lati@s and Arceus-Ghost too

Zekrom --> B, are you running Draco Meteor still? Bad Scarfer, not even great Mixed. Might have to drop further actually...

Also, should Primal Groudon's Rank be called S+ Rank or Desolate Land Rank?

Fireburn EDIT - Only Mega Ray is powerful enough to get its own renamed rank.

Like this post if you agree with these nominations I guess (again, they aren't at all my subjective opinions, I've read through all the posts and taken them all into account). If you disagree with some of them then say why :)

 

[Fireburn]

I think B+ is fine for Zekrom, PDon being on every team really sucks but most of them seem to be offensive or specially bulky so you can chunk at them with Outrage. Also it revenges Ho-Oh and Latis which is valuable.

A+ is good for Latis, they are incredible but do have some flaws that keep them out of S-rank i.e. weakness to Pursuit and bulky Steels in general + mediocre physical bulk. I would also keep Mewtwo/MMY in A+, LO M2 is still great as is CM MMY.

I agree with Hack that Mence and Gengar should be the same rank, but I think I'd sooner move Mence up to S than Gengar down to A+. Mence is one of the deadliest sweepers around and has some nice defensive utility with its naturally high Defense and typing + Intimidate checking stuff like PDon, EKiller, Blaze, etc. 120 Speed makes revenge killing it really tough, forcing you to rely on bulk, Prankster, or offensive presence to stop it.

Ho-Oh def deserves A+, we got Latis and 2 viable new Magic Bouncers (put Mega Diancie in A- pls) so keeping SR away is pretty easy.

Go ahead and dump Kyogre to B+, it really doesn't need to be anywhere in A.

Other than that it looks fine to me.

 

[Kebabe]

Why does every random user stick random polls in all their random threads? It's so horribly obnoxious and pointless.

post here next time:http://www.smogon.com/forums/thread...edition-read-before-posting-a-thread.3490353/

And why have all your post become trash after you stopped being a mod? I mean I know you love donkey but it's kinda sad :(

Fireburn EDIT - LOL

 

[Sweep]

Sticking with S and A+ for now, Groudon in S+ is self-explanatory...

I recommend moving Scizor and Lugia up to A. Mega Scizor can still Pursuit STAG users and Superpower is very nice for EKiller and overeager Dialga switchins if you can make room for it. Toxic is almost mandatory bc Groundceus and Primal Groudon can come in easily otherwise. You'll also see less HP Fire Xerneas, though Scizor should still be EV'd to take a +2 Focus Blast after Stealth Rock. Overall Scizor checks some of the top threats in the metagame (though it counters almost nothing) and is much better than it was at the end of XY. Lugia, as others have mentioned, benefits from the sheer number of physical attackers (PDon / EKiller / SD Groundceus / etc) in the tier and can set up a Reflect to further boost its physical defense. Yveltal should stay A+, Sucker Punch priority is still useful and the physically defensive set is even better now since you can take on RP Don nicely (not SD / Double Dance though).

This might be controversial but Lando-T is AWFUL IMO and should drop to no higher than B. It fares terribly against any Primal Groudon carrying a Fire move and has a difficult time breaking through Mega Salamence's impressive defense (Sala can even set up on it if a teammate died & it is still in good health). It still loses to EKiller 1-1, Groundceus commonly carry Ice Beam, and although checking Blaziken well is big, with all of the strong mega's running around checking just one of them isn't noteworthy. Checking Zekrom means very little since Scarf Zekrom will see little use and Life Orb Draco still bops you. I suppose offensive Life Orb variants are still solid on Sticky Web but I wouldn't use it on any other team archetype.

Regular Kyogre is bad too, probably self-explanatory why but the Lati's own and I still like Palkia on top of the "countered by the best Pokemon in the game" thing.

 

[Haruno]

Groudon A => B rank

Fuck this mon is awful. Using this piece of shit means you can't use primal groudon which is probably the biggest reason for a drop. Let's list some pros and cons

Pros: checks ekiller better than primal don
Not ground weak
Gives sun support to team (LOL)
Checks Ray with no Draco better
Can hold an item

Cons: neutrality to water, weak to grass/ice.
Fucked by primal Ogre
Fucked by xerneas
Can get burned
No fire stab
Frailer on phys side than primal don
And a shit ton of other things but these are the main ones


Due to how shitty groudons advantages are and how good primal groudon is (it has its own fucking tier lol!) the opportunity cost of running groudon is fucking massive and the advantages of running it are so minuscule that it nowhere near outweighs the cons. Hence the drop

Edit: drop landoge to B that shit is awful in XY and even worse now.