ORAS Ubers Viability Ranking Thread (Final ORAS Update - Post #1164)

[dice]

do we wanna order the pokes within the ranks instead of alphabetizing it or na

 

[Karxrida]

I think that's unnecessary. The ranks are not completely exact and we don't need to micromanage to that level, especially since it will probably cause petty arguments about exact placements. Besides, why bother with the current letter system if we were going to just list them in a set order of viability like what you're proposing?

 

[shrang]

Personally I reckon we should rank them in order of viability (via whatever subjective criteria we like to go by) within the tiers themselves. Yes, I know this would probably turn this thread into a total shitfest with ridiculous bantering of whether Ekiller is better than GeoXern or not, but we do that already anyway so there's really no reason not to.

*Oh for the record, GeoXern is way more dangerous than the weak shit pussy known as Ekiller.

 

[Freeroamer]

I guess it could create more discussion, personally I'd have S something like Mence > Xern > Ekiller > Ho-oh

 

[ApplepieFTW]

For S it would make some sense, but only because of the mons that just so happen to be in it. If you were to order them according to viability, this would mean the highest A- is significantly better than the lowest, or at least so much better that it's able to be distinguished from the lowest ranked mon in that ranking tier. It's better, and so much so that it's clear to be stated there is a significant jump between them. Gosh, that sounds like the subranks we already have with under S/A/B/C! If something is deemed to fit in with rank x-y, it means it's just as good as the other pokemon there and resembles them very closely in viability (e.g mons should always rise/fall because they are better/worse than a pokemon in the same rank). It would also probably draw attention away from the main goal which is having a rough grouping according to viability; we'd instead focus on unnecessary nitpicking which I see no point in. It'd be too close to "objectifying" these rankings which isn't really possible either, differences that subtle regularly change anyway.

 

[Kurona]

For S it would make some sense, but only because of the mons that just so happen to be in it. If you were to order them according to viability, this would mean the highest A- is significantly better than the lowest, or at least so much better that it's able to be distinguished from the lowest ranked mon in that ranking tier. It's better, and so much so that it's clear to be stated there is a significant jump between them. Gosh, that sounds like the subranks we already have with under S/A/B/C! If something is deemed to fit in with rank x-y, it means it's just as good as the other pokemon there and resembles them very closely in viability (e.g mons should always rise/fall because they are better/worse than a pokemon in the same rank). It would also probably draw attention away from the main goal which is having a rough grouping according to viability; we'd instead focus on unnecessary nitpicking which I see no point in. It'd be too close to "objectifying" these rankings which isn't really possible either, differences that subtle regularly change anyway.

I can kind of see your point with only doing S-rank since that is of course where the most significant differences in ranking will be (because, y'know, best 5 pokemon in the game), but at the same time it seems a little arbitrary and potentially confusing to newcomers or casual viewers taking a quick glance at the rankings.

 

[ApplepieFTW]

Yeah I agree, doing just one would be even more arbitrary than these rankings in the first place. Also, we've established pokemon in D are unviable to the extent that better options should, and can be found for competitive teams. How can one pokemon that's unviable be more or less unviable than another? I really do think doing this would degrade the quality of the rankings

 

[hyw]

>Arceus-Ice
>C+

no. this is one of the best practical mence checks for offense, and ice is an amazing offensive typing rn. it can run fire coverage to scorch traditional checks (i use blast burn, more "optimal" people use Fire Blast), it is still bulky by ubers standards, and it's a lot of fun to use. i endorse this pokemon for B-, putting it in C+ is underselling it

Not sure if trolling or literally went from endorsing Omastar to a new low. -_- Chris if you're serious show me one even half-decent team that "features" this gimmick before making such inflammatory and outlandish remarks. x_x

 

[shrang]

Not sure if trolling or literally went from endorsing Omastar to a new low. -_- Chris if you're serious show me one even half-decent team that "features" this gimmick before making such inflammatory and outlandish remarks. x_x

Omastar is legit, don't hate :O

Anyway, just on the D rankings, I reckon if we're going to go via viability, there's a big disparity in the list. For example, Palkia (which I personally don't think should be D), actually has a over stupid Pokemon like Deo-N and Reshiram. Regular Kyogre isn't as useless as Reshiram either, even though it has next to no niche in Ubers as of now.

On that matter, can we retier Palkia out of D? I don't care if it's C- or C or wherever you want to put it, as long it's higher than stupid shit like Reshiram and Deo-N. I've made my point before that SpD Palkia actually has a number of things going for it in a previous post, so I'm not going to really elaborate on the details, but I'll tl;dr them here:
- P Kyogre check that is not Spikes (esp Klefki/Ferro) bait (for when opposing P Ogre switches in on your P Donner rendering it a non-check, OR if you're using regular sun)
- Not Pursuit weak
- Doesn't care as much about yellow magic if you're using Rest
- Not S-tag weak

My set was:

Palkia @ Leftovers
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 248 HP / 260 - <speed creep> SpD / <speed creep> Spe
Nature: Calm
- Dragon Tail
- Rest
- Toxic
- Fire Blast

 

[hyw]

Omastar is legit, don't hate :O

Anyway, just on the D rankings, I reckon if we're going to go via viability, there's a big disparity in the list. For example, Palkia (which I personally don't think should be D), actually has a over stupid Pokemon like Deo-N and Reshiram. Regular Kyogre isn't as useless as Reshiram either, even though it has next to no niche in Ubers as of now.

On that matter, can we retier Palkia out of D? I don't care if it's C- or C or wherever you want to put it, as long it's higher than stupid shit like Reshiram and Deo-N. I've made my point before that SpD Palkia actually has a number of things going for it in a previous post, so I'm not going to really elaborate on the details, but I'll tl;dr them here:
- P Kyogre check that is not Spikes (esp Klefki/Ferro) bait (for when opposing P Ogre switches in on your P Donner rendering it a non-check, OR if you're using regular sun)
- Not Pursuit weak
- Doesn't care as much about yellow magic if you're using Rest
- Not S-tag weak

My set was:

Palkia @ Leftovers
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 248 HP / 260 - <speed creep> SpD / <speed creep> Spe
Nature: Calm
- Dragon Tail
- Rest
- Toxic
- Fire Blast

Just because the discussion in this thread has been on a track of perpetual decline these last few weeks, doesn't mean you guys can come in and fucking fuck it up and fuck around with this McFuckery fuck is this shit can we please try to encourage an environment of exchanges if ideas with real substance? :[ Now, let's be real men and ressurect arguments regarding the true measure of visbility in Kyurem-White. I have been trying some new sets like Power Herb Freeze Shock and SmashPass recipient and it's super awesome!

 

[Jibaku]

C+ looks like it'd be a big mess to reorganize.

 

[Nayrz]

Things appear to have slowed down a bit recently, so Sweep and I decided to allow the idea of organizing by viability (but NOT for D rank) to generate some discussion. With nobody having an idea when Z is released, keeping our threads alive is a new challenge. I'll give it till next weekend to get some opinions posted here before I do the massive shuffle that is probably inevitable, and I'll consider the suggestions posted since the last update at that time (Cress can't be ranked without an analysis though).

C rank was a tougher one to decide on when it comes to allowing viability ordering mainly because everything in there is more or less niche already and separating niche from niche is a tough one. Main reasoning for allowing it is that it keeps things consistent between the rankings for anyone that reads it. D rank was excluded because at that stage it becomes pointless discussion. However it would be a decent idea to focus discussion on the higher ranks and not let the thread devolve into another shitmon debate.

As for the way the thread will be updated, the decision making is shifting from "mods take the final decision" to "all posters are in charge and mods should now post their opinions". This should hopefully stop any concerns of futility/elitism when discussion reaches a conclusion. This also means there shouldn't be any hold ups when the thread updates come around. Changes will go by the general consensus of the posters. If there's no clear consensus then the moderators will vote on what to do.

 

[Funbot28]

Here is what I see for S and A ranks:

S-Rank:

Hide

S+

• 
  Groudon-Primal

S

• 
  Salamence-Mega
• 
  Xerneas
• 
  Arceus-Normal
• 
  Ho-Oh

A-Rank:

Hide

A+

• 
  Darkrai
• 
  Arceus-Water
• 
  Lugia
  
• 
  Gengar-Mega

A

• 
  Arceus-Ground
• 
  Klefki
  
• 
  Latios
  
• 
  Arceus-Ghost
• 
  Sableye-Mega
  
• 
  Deoxys-Speed

A-

• 
  Arceus-Rock
• 
  Yveltal
  
• 
  Deoxys-Attack
• 
  Rayquaza
  
• 
  Kyogre-Primal
• 
  Diancie-Mega
  
• 
  Mewtwo
• 
  Dialga
  
• 
  Latias

This is my opinion so feel free to disagree. Will add B and C later

 

[Freeroamer]

The main one from that I disagree with is Diancie being so low within A-, for me it's arguably the best mon in that sub ranking and is more splashable than Ray and Yvel for sure. It can be so hard to deal with for bulkier squads and retains a niche vs HO in limiting Deo-S to one layer of hazards at best and even that isn't assured if you're feeling ballsy and want to play some mevo mind games with Skill Swap. Being able to somewhat check Darkrai and dissuade Dark Void in general is another thing it has going for it. The other ranks I can somewhat agree with but your A- still has a few things that bug me like Dialga and Mewtwo> Latias and Yvel being so high in general.

 

[orch]

mence > xern > arceus > ho-oh

ho-oh being s is by far the most shaky S (and incorrectly imo but whatever) and should be ranked the lowest.

other 3 are ranked by how good they are offensively and defensively relative to eachothers:

mence - best offensive with average defensive
xern - very good offensive with very good defensive
arceus - very good offensive with below average defensive

 

[DoubleOD]

Sableye-Mega single handedly makes teams like Hackstall the very very best in this tier. You spam a Mega Sableye stall team and you will have matchup advantage in the majority of matches - it requires the opponent to bring something that would usually make him very weak against HO or Balance, like Lucario or specific Primal Kyogre sets.

Mega Sableye single-handedly makes those teams go. Those teams are very breakable if you can manage to get Stealth Rock up because Lugia doesn't automatically check you if Multiscale is broken. Mega-Sableye is easily the best mon in A and I really don't think it's close.

 

[Nayrz]

Alright so because there is no clear consensus over A rank's general positions (but there is for S rank) I will update S rank to the new viability ordering, and let this week go towards sorting out A rank.

Updated S rank order:

Mega Salamence
Xerneas
Arceus-Normal
Ho-Oh

I'm gonna put my opinion of A's viability ordering in hide tags just to add to the discussion. I'll encourage the other mods to add their own opinions.

My opinion of A

A+

Darkrai
Arceus-Water
Lugia
Mega Gengar

A

Sableye-Mega
Arceus-Ground
Klefki
Latios
Arceus-Ghost
Deoxys-S

A- (this area is relatively close together in viability imo)

Primal Kyogre
Mega Diancie
Latias (50/50)
Rayquaza (50/50)
Arceus-Rock
Mewtwo
Deoxys-Attack
Yveltal
Dialga

 

[mirraa~]

regular lando up to at leas c rank imo with sheer force sludge wave and earth power it is a solid check to xerneas and pdon anything that can do considerable damage or POSSIBLY ohko pdon is worthy of a higher rank than D rank

 

[Kyuzeth]

regular lando up to at leas c rank imo with sheer force sludge wave and earth power it is a solid check to xerneas and pdon anything that can do considerable damage or POSSIBLY ohko pdon is worthy of a higher rank than D rank

Problem is, Landorus-I is frail for Ubers standards and its power falls short. The Eon twins easily deal with it due to their higher Speed, and generally as a special attacker, Landorus-I finds itself outclassed. Sure, it has a chance at OHKOing Primal Groudon, but its frailty and predictability really detract from its viability. As a special attacker, Latios does the job far better due to its higher Special Attack and Speed, as well as using Soul Dew to boost its Specials.

Also, it's not a solid check to Xerneas when Moonblasts rip Lando-I apart. Keep Lando-I where it is.

 

[Lord Outrage]

I think Scolipide and Cloyster should rise to B-. Those two Toxic Spikes setters stand out among the others. First Scolipede is great versus Deo-S and Deo-A offense while not being weak to Darkrai unlike all other setters since it runs Protect and has Speed Boost. Cloyster has Shell Smash so it can annoy both Mega Sableye, Mega Diancie and Giratina-A all being Pokemon that annoy other Toxic Spikes users. Cloyster can also be a win condition since after a boost it hits hard. So yeah Cloyster and Scolipede to B- since they are superior as proven by their uses more than any other Toxic Spikes setter in our tournaments.

 

[dice]

tspikes sux. matchup related mons that necessitate a 5050 vs defog w. an sr setter (since u have to run a seperate sr setter, this opens u up to being exploited by more defog opportunities; this is my biggest gripe w. these types of teams) and are best used as counterstyle methods................. if ur against most common magic bounce (re: sableye) u have to double or hope ur oppo misplays and u get a turn to smash w. cloyster (another 5050.. do they attack or switch?.. prio is common to pick off sash). diancie also a nail in the side for scolipede since u cannot run both anti-darkrai and anti-deo-s set or u lose endeavor although that admittedly doesn't seem /awful/. haaaaa

 

[Sweep]

agree with dice regarding tspikes setters, teams with them will never be consistent vs. Defog users backed by solid builds and outright suck vs. teams with Sableye.

Nayrz, my only nitpick with your "A+" list is that I'd have Lugia a hair above Arceus-Water. You can try to make Stall work with a niche Arceus forme like Groundceus / Grassceus, but Lugia is way too good a blanket check to almost every physical threat in the metagame to pass up & Magic Bounce support patches up the hazard bait weakness. I'd say they're about equally reliable a check to stuff like Groudon and Mega Mence (Lugia fares better if Multiscale is intact, Waterceus arguably fares a bit better if not), so Lugia's splashability on stall gives it the edge for me. Both are viable on balance as well, and I feel Lugia is probably underused and underrated on those builds.

 

[Lord Outrage]

Toxic Spikes teams win a lot in tours. Their best leads should go out of C+ but who cares after all I have my own viability rankings in my head and probably people good at this game does too sooo whatever :/

 

[hyw]

I think A+ should go Mega Gengar, Darkrai, Arceus-Water, then Lugia. Sweep I agree with the points you made and I understand where you're coming from but I feel as though you've failed to mention a few things. First, regarding Arceus-Water and Lugua; I believe that while Lugia by virtue of its ability, typing, and stats, is able to take on threats with much more comfort given ideal circumstances. Yet, one must also bear in mind that Pokémon is a game about what happened and not what could have happened. While it can take on offensive Primal Groudon better, Lava Plume burns take away its Multiscale, and while it can take on standard Mega Salamence better, the Refresh variants can beat it while Arceus-Water's Ice Beam at times outdamages Lugia's to a point where the dragon falls (this depends on your opponent's spread, though). It is also worth noting that while both can run purely glue-esque sets (Ice Beam and Toxic versus Judgment and Toxic), the latter can also provide crucial defensive support in the form of Defog. Furthermore, Arceus-Water can find a fit on both balance and stall teams, changing up its moveset to accomodate for certain threats or to become the team's Defogger, making it versatile and therefore more viable, Lugia can really only run one set. Basically, Lugia finds a home on stall teams better than Arceus-Water does, but in reality, Lugia is a lot more one-dimensional than Arceus-Water and therefore cannot find a place on various builds easily; it also experiences its fair share of downsides such as any factor detracting from its Multiscale leading to the obligatory devotion to hazards-control and avoidance of burns such as from Primal Groudon and Ho-Oh. I also find it to be pretty vulnerable paralyzed as it can't outpace to return to 100% via Roost as it can otherwise. Tldr Multiscale is a double-edged sword and Arceus-Water is a lot more versatile so Arceus-Water > Lugia.

Mega Gengar being the number one A-rank and Darkrai number two should be pretty obvious though in my opinion I wonder if others would disagree with me on this? Essentially, the former can counter Arceus and even Xerneas if you EV it correctly, can run a myriad of sets to fill out the team's needs meaning it is very versatile and hence viable, it has arguably the best ability in the entire game, and Darkrai falls just short of it in ranking while simultaneously sitting above the two other defensive Pokémon because although it is really one-dimensional, it fits well on both offense and balance, performs extremely well on hyperoffensive teams thanks to the fast Dark Void, and come on it's Darkrai one of the strongest Pokémon to come into existance plus no more Steel-resist and it can run shit like Thunder to get by certain checks at the cost of really only being able to bop Xerneas reliably to be honest.

 

[orch]

tspike users stay where they are. they suck lol xD

Let's reorganize A+:

This is a rather difficult one to order - all pokes in this rank are very different and very specialized for their roles. So, I'll order them by the following criteria.

a) how good is this pokemon at its best role?
b) can it do other roles?
c) how powerful is this mon? (relative to eachothers and power can be measured in offense/defense/support prowess)

Arceus-Water:
a) not the only support arceus and is occasionally outclassed by dragceus or rockceus.
b) cm waterceus is a possibility but its very gimmicky
c) pretty strong support and defense capability with next to zero offensive presence. doesn't really require any support.

Darkrai:
a) nothing compares to darkrai for the basically guaranteed remove 1 mon and set up for free set. it's by far the best one for the particular role.
b) scarf/sash (antilead) sets are present and are decent at these however they have various flaws.
c) by far the strongest offensive pokemon in A+ with outstanding support in form of sleep. however, the only defensive niche is psychic immunity and is pathetically weak in this regard. doesn't really require any support.

Gengar:
a) best shadow tag abuser and can easily force win conditions with traps.
b) perish/sleep/other sets are present however they're more difficult to justify due to how good the main set is. sleep sets are very gimmicky and notoriously unreliable. perish is fantastic vs balance and stall and sucks vs offense.
c) very little yet not useless defensive niche - normal immunity can be used to punish priority users. gets 2hkod by basically any neutral hit. decent offensive capability - can struggles to kill mons and relies on strategical chip dmg to win some match ups. gengar has the best support capability in the ubers meta by removing pokemons u dont want to face.

lugia:
a) best physical wall in ubers meta.
b) nope ._.
c) best defensive wall with decent status/phazing support. next to zero offensive presence. requires some support.

So, in conclusion I think that it should be ordered by this:

Gengar
Darkrai
Arceus-Water
Lugia