ORAS UU Viability Ranking Thread M3 (READ POST #823)

[tmacbalanced]

Rhyperior going from B+ to B is something I agree with. His bulk is good on the physically defensive side & he can hit back nicely but he does have trouble with the casual fighting types like, Infernape & Lucario with sword's dance as well as mixed attackers like Mega Abomasnow. Rhyperior can tank on Mega Beedrill, Snorlax, Entei, etc. Rhyperior doesn't really tank that much of the meta nor is it too great of stealth rocker, a tank, & it's speed is lack luster. Rhyperior should probably go down to B- even.

Forretress should stay in A in my opinion. I've seen a lot of experienced players do some flexible plays with this & talk about some flexible plays with this. Like, gyro balling Espeon, putting pressure on other hazard setters with rapid spin, etc. Slow volt switching is pretty decent too.

Goodra, not much to say except that I think it is a good tank on the special side.

 

[Adaam]

malinowski I disagree with Hydreigon for A+. I first would like to agree that Scarf Hydra is definitely not S rank material (way too weak and fodder for so many things like Slurpuff). However, the TauntRoost set is still really really good and a premier balance breaker. Pretty much any team without a Florges or Blissey is at least slightly weak to Hydreigon (although Blissey IIRC can be stalled out of Seismic Tosses).

You mentioned the TauntRoost set to be a stall breaker, and in essence it is because of taunt + recovery. But really it has a much better matchup vs balance than stall. Hydreigon's switchins consist of: Florges, Whimsicott, Lax, Umbreon, Vaporeon to an extent, Porygon2, Cobalion, Puff, Granbull, Empoleon, and Blissey. Notice how many of these mons are premier balance mons, such as P2, Lax, Empoleon, and Umbreon, and notice how Taunt shuts down all of them and denies them either recovery or the ability to set up. And with the power of a life orb, Hydreigon can muscle past fairies with low SpD like Granbull and Whimsicott by spamming Dark Pulse. Cobalion also takes like half from
Draco so it's only coming in once. So the only reliable and consistent Hydreigon switchins for balance are... just Florges (Blissey is mainly on stall).

And this is just Hydreigons offensive presence. He also finds so many opportunities to switch in due to his fantastic typing and ability. Things like Chandelure, Krookodile, the Rotoms, Pert, Suicune, even Entei all are Hydreigon fodder unless running some obscure coverage move like Ice Beam Defensive Pert or Superpower Krook, and ALL of these mons are still very common on balance. Some of these are also offense staples (Entei, Chandelure, Krook, and M-Pert although M-Pert gives it a harder time), so it's not like it's shit vs Offense due its low speed. Stall may have adapted to it but I do not see any trend changes that makes Hydreigon a worse balance breaker (giv hp fairy pls gf).

 

[Cheryl.]

I know I've made quite a few nominations lately, like Mega Houndoom, Doublade, and Infernape, but I feel like Slurpuff should definetely move up to A. It's amazing how quickly this thing can gain a set up opportunity, set up a Belly Drum, get the Unburden boost, and sweep an entire team, all in just a couple of turns. It has coverage moves in Return and Drain Punch to help beat checks and counters, and really there are only like a couple counters/answers to this thing, the most reliable being Doublade, and the others being Forretress, Mega Aggron, and Bronzong. (Also, Entei can revenge it with Choice Band ESpeed) One of the greatest things about Slurpuff is it's Fairy typing, helping it gain set up opportunities on Dragon, Dark, or Fighting types, all of which are a common type in UU. It also synergizes well with some of the biggest threats, like Hydreigon or Mega Houndoom. But Slurpuff has some flaws, otherwise it would be broken. It's checks and counters ar epretty common, as Doublade is pretty easy to fit into teams and Entei is a very big threat. It also can't take too much offensive pressure, as it's defenses isn't the best. But Slurpuff overall is one of the best sweepers in UU right now, it just needs it's checks and counters gone, and then it can sweep a team like a piece of cake. Slurpuff for A.

 

[YABO]

Slurpuff is fine where it is, there are already a plethora of things that stop it after it sets up alongside several that deter it from setting up. Even some of the stuff that puff usually sets up on can be thwarted by taunt on something like hyrdei. Its good but so long as you are aware of its presence you can usually make it difficult to set up.

 

[ehT]

This may sound a little crazy, but how do we feel about giving a ranking for Sneasel? While it's nowhere near the god status of its big brother in OU, it is still almost as effective, at least on paper, due to its decent Attack, incredible dual STAB, access to SD and anti-meta af speed tier. These attributes allow Sneasel to clean up late game after softening up its checks, and it needs less damage on its checks than you'd think to break through them.

252 Atk Life Orb Sneasel Ice Shard vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Beedrill: 140-165 (51.6 - 60.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Life Orb Sneasel Ice Shard vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Aerodactyl: 159-190 (52.8 - 63.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
^Dead after a couple rounds of Rocks or +2

252 Atk Life Orb Sneasel Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Empoleon: 185-218 (49.8 - 58.7%) -- 70.7% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery (Low Kick 2HKO's)
252 Atk Life Orb Sneasel Icicle Crash vs. 252 HP / 232 Def Florges: 149-177 (41.3 - 49.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Life Orb Sneasel Low Kick (120 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Cobalion: 221-260 (68.4 - 80.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Life Orb Sneasel Low Kick (120 BP) vs. 144 HP / 188 Def Snorlax: 304-359 (61.1 - 72.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery


While all of these mons by themselves can by themselves check Sneasel at least once (bar Forretress, Suicune, and Umbreon, which counter, and potentially Florges), none of them enjoy switching or getting Knocked Off, especially with Rocks up. However, like any late game cleaner, its checks must be weakened, and it is pretty much forced to choose between punching holes early game and cleaning mid to late game. It must also choose between SD, Low Kick, and Pursuit. It also faces stiff competition from Mamoswine, since unlike Mamoswine, Sneasel has actual switch ins, and does not have STAB Earthquake to reliably bop Steel types. Furthermore, Mamoswine can take a hit or two if it really needs to, whereas a stiff breeze can spell the end for Sneasel. And lastly, Mamoswine has significantly more immediate power then Sneasel, allowing it to sweep as well as break walls. However, I wouldn't say that you have to be hard pressed to choose Sneasel over Mamoswine, given the qualities I listed above (namely Speed, Dark STAB, and access to SD). Unfortunately, I don't have any replays to provide right now, but theorymonning alone leads me to believe that Sneasel should at least be B- rank. What does everyone think about this?

 

[Kink]

This may sound a little crazy, but how do we feel about giving a ranking for Sneasel? While it's nowhere near the god status of its big brother in OU, it is still almost as effective, at least on paper, due to its decent Attack, incredible dual STAB, access to SD and anti-meta af speed tier. These attributes allow Sneasel to clean up late game after softening up its checks, and needs less damage on its checks than you'd think to break through them.

252 Atk Life Orb Sneasel Ice Shard vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Beedrill: 140-165 (51.6 - 60.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Life Orb Sneasel Ice Shard vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Aerodactyl: 159-190 (52.8 - 63.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
^Dead after a couple rounds of Rocks or +2

252 Atk Life Orb Sneasel Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Empoleon: 185-218 (49.8 - 58.7%) -- 70.7% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery (Low Kick 2HKO's)
252 Atk Life Orb Sneasel Icicle Crash vs. 252 HP / 232 Def Florges: 149-177 (41.3 - 49.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Life Orb Sneasel Low Kick (120 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Cobalion: 221-260 (68.4 - 80.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Life Orb Sneasel Low Kick (120 BP) vs. 144 HP / 188 Def Snorlax: 304-359 (61.1 - 72.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery


While all of these mons by themselves can by themselves check Sneasel once (bar Forretress, Suicune, Umbreon, and potentially Florges), none of them enjoy switching or getting Knocked Off, especially with Rocks up. However, like any late game cleaner, its checks must be weakened, and it is pretty much forced to choose between punching holes early game and cleaning mid to late game. It must also choose between SD, Low Kick, and Pursuit. It also faces stiff competition from Mamoswine, since unlike Mamoswine, Sneasel has actual switch ins, and does not have STAB Earthquake to reliably bop Steel types. Furthermore, Mamoswine can take a hit or two if it really needs to, whereas a stiff breeze can spell the end for Sneasel. And lastly, Mamoswine has significantly more immediate power then Sneasel, allowing it to sweep as well as break walls. However, I wouldn't say that you have to be hard pressed to choose Sneasel over Mamoswine, given the qualities I listed above (namely Speed, Dark STAB, and access to SD). Unfortunately, I don't have any replays to provide right now, but theorymonning alone leads me to believe that Sneasel should at the very least be B- rank. What does everyone think about this?

I can agree to a trial C ranking assuming the VR council agrees. There's a few of us, though, so if I'm overruled that's that.

Also can you people stop underestimating Hydreigon smh

 

[Adaam]

Granbull for B rank

I use Granbull on my stall team and it is one the best fighting counters in UU. Tbh only Mence is on Granbull's level in checking fighting spam. However, Mence gets Roost whereas Granbull only has rest for recovery, but Granbulls typing gives it very valuable niches that FatMence can not fulfill.

Granbull's fairy typing allows it to also serve as a check to all dark types in the tier. Taunt Mandi is a problem for stall, and FatMence can not beat it. Granbull on the other hand easily handles it with SE Play Roughs and Heal Bell for Toxic variants. M-Absol, although not common, beats mence with SD Play Rough but Granbull simply does not give a fuck about it. M-Shark obliterates Mence with Ice Beam, but cowers in fear at the face of the pink dog. And obviously FatMence can' t switch into dragons, but Granbull can check them (Special Mence hurts Granbull but is walled by Blissey, and Dark Pulse from Hydra hurts for a resist).

Also if you are really really real, you can run Fire Punch Granbull to bop those pesky SD Abomas.

Some replays

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/uu-255409855
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/uu-255418930

These two replays are vs the same guy for my UU open. Granbull prevents SD Lefties Hera from slaying my team

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/uu-255365349

Turn 50 Granbull takes out SD Luc which can hurt my team with Crunch. It revealed the BP when it died so I guess Jelly could have walled it but I always assume Crunch unless it reveals something else

 

[Kink]

Granbull for B rank

I use Granbull on my stall team and it is one the best fighting counters in UU. Tbh only Mence is on Granbull's level in checking fighting spam. However, Mence gets Roost whereas Granbull only has rest for recovery, but Granbulls typing gives it very valuable niches that FatMence can not fulfill.

Granbull's fairy typing allows it to also serve as a check to all dark types in the tier. Taunt Mandi is a problem for stall, and FatMence can not beat it. Granbull on the other hand easily handles it with SE Play Roughs and Heal Bell for Toxic variants. M-Absol, although not common, beats mence with SD Play Rough but Granbull simply does not give a fuck about it. M-Shark obliterates Mence with Ice Beam, but cowers in fear at the face of the pink dog. And obviously FatMence can' t switch into dragons, but Granbull can check them (Special Mence hurts Granbull but is walled by Blissey, and Dark Pulse from Hydra hurts for a resist).

Also if you are really really real, you can run Fire Punch Granbull to bop those pesky SD Abomas.

Some replays

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/uu-255409855
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/uu-255418930

These two replays are vs the same guy for my UU open. Granbull prevents SD Lefties Hera from slaying my team

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/uu-255365349

Turn 50 Granbull takes out SD Luc which can hurt my team with Crunch. It revealed the BP when it died so I guess Jelly could have walled it but I always assume Crunch unless it reveals something else

That picture disturbs me greatly.

 

[Yugi]

This may sound a little crazy, but how do we feel about giving a ranking for Sneasel? While it's nowhere near the god status of its big brother in OU, it is still almost as effective, at least on paper, due to its decent Attack, incredible dual STAB, access to SD and anti-meta af speed tier. These attributes allow Sneasel to clean up late game after softening up its checks, and needs less damage on its checks than you'd think to break through them.

I actually am testing this mon currently and as of right now i think C-.It doesnt have the immediate power to knock out something and i think a SD set is best for it right now.


It impresses me in so many levels but also it is underwhelming.It does take some hits with Eviolite but cant dish out that much without boosts.E.G i was playing a game and i had sneasel vs swampert(non mega),he had an item i used knock off and he was at 25% and i dropped it down to 1% that actually is dissapointing but also can get rid of threats like LO Hydra and other stuff.Its actually early for me right now but im sticking to C-.Also it does not do well against defensive steels even tho it has access to low kick.I think a set of either SD Icicle Crash with knock off and ice shard is a good set or low kick instead of ice shard.Idk i def think that this pokemon should be discussed.

 

[Malin]

I dont think anyone is underestimating Hydreigon and I'd be glad to see some good discussion like user Do A Bibarel just did instead of those kind of posts that bring nothing to discussion, specially from a council member or something that takes finals decisions about what is going this thread

I think I made some reasonable statements about why I think Hydreigon should not be a S rank mon, looking to discuss his actual viability in this meta without being disrespectable or underestimating others opinions in any way, and I'd be glad to be treated the same way thank you

 

[Hogg]

Hydreigon is quite possibly the hardest 'mon to switch into in the game. It hits like a truck even when scarfed thanks to high BP moves like Draco and excellent SpAt. Fairies need to watch out for Flash Cannon/Fire Blast. It has perfect coverage across both sides of the spectrum. It's fast. It has a really cool defensive typing when combined with Levitate. It grabs momentum with U-turn. It has a surprisingly large support move-pool that includes Taunt, Thunder Wave and Roost.

It can be fit into almost any team, and does good work against every playstyle depending on move-set. It's always scary to see in preview because each set has totally different counters.

Basically, it meets every qualification of S rank and is easily one of the most prominent 'mons in the tier.

 

[teal6]

I'd quite like to defend Hydreigon, not least because it is my favorite Pokemon, but also because it's probably my most used mon in UU (well, once Jirachi left, though they made great partners).

The en vogue Hydreigon set is the stallbreaker with Taunt / Roost / Dark Pulse / Draco Meteor and a Life Orb or, sometimes, Leftovers. And frankly, I think this is by far the best set. Any sort of stall build fears this monster particularly if or when their Fairy is gone. Traditional special walls like Blissey cannot beat this beast 1v1, and as discussed in recent stall-centric posts around the forums, Blissey is often used on these teams as a "catch all" special wall.

Against more balanced builds, Hydreigon has a great matchup versus otherwise scary setup sweepers. Of course, for some time now, UU has been a tier infested with these mons - CroCune, Reuniclus and Curselax the main ones that come to mind, though Cresselia often functions this way as well. Hydreigon serves as an incredible check to these threats, really only bothered by Curselax. In preparation for recent tournaments I've been very concerned with Reuniclus, seeing its growing popularity. While Reuni most commonly carries Focus Blast, with smart switching or predicting one can ensure Hydreigon ends up in at the right time to scare out Reuni so that it cannot start boosting into oblivion.

Even against offense this Hydreigon set performs admirably. While the user of the set will be unlikely to get the chance to Roost very often, Hydreigon can make use of its natural bulk and typing to serve the team by going down while taking out an opposing mon. Notably, UU's premier threat Feraligatr can't OHKO Hydrei at +1, while it is OHKOd in turn by a Draco Meteor. General calcs are a bit annoying, but it's quite obvious how good it is to have a mon that can switch in on a DD and still survive to get rid of the enemy.

I think the rising popularity of special Salamence will cause people to rethink Hydreigon as they compete in a seemingly similar role, and Salamence carries options like Defog or Mixed sets that may cause it to have higher viability. But the two function completely differently, and Mence's 4x weakness to a common attacking type does it a disservice when trying to punch holes through teams. In addition, Mence doesn't have access to a move like Dark Pulse that it can spam for consistently high damage output, another negative in terms of comparison. But, like I said, I don't think I should necessarily be comparing them, as their roles are different overall.

Finally, the above makes no mention of coverage moves available to Hydreigon, who can forgo typically anything but Dark Pulse (in my experience) to run something to hit a switch in. Flash Cannon and Fire Blast are the two notable one, able to savage typical "counters" to Hydreigon (Hydrei really does have no "true" counters, maybe Florges but it's not enjoying switching into it that much to be honest)

Here's a replay from a Greninja Warrior game I had recently: http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/uu-252331292
In this match a bit of poor luck causes me to lose the #1 threat to my opponent's team very early on, frankly making the matchup look a step too far for me. However I like to think I played with Hydreigon quite well through a large chunk of the middle of the match (though I do see mistakes later on, particularly turn 14). Hydreigon's unique playstyle singlehandedly draws me back into a fighting chance, and if there had been any other mon in his place I don't think I could have picked back up to compete in the match after the early turns.

All of this is disregarding the Choice Scarf set which still hits very well, can pivot into attacks, keep momentum with U-Turn and clean late game should certain checks be removed. I'm not writing more on that though because that set has been used a lot longer in gen 6 UU so folks should understand what it does and how it works.

 

[Hogg]

Also I think you're drastically understating Specs' potential. I've been using an offensive duo that (iirc) I stole from Meru of Scarf Chandy and Specs Hydreigon, and it has been amazing. Specs Flash Cannon 2HKOs Florges and OHKOs Whimsi without chance of missing, which is huge. What also sets it apart from LO is its ability to grab momentum with U-turn, and its ability to bluff a Scarf. The fact that most people assume Scarf when they see no LO recoil has absolutely won me several games, because Specs Hydreigon has very different counters than Scarf.

 

[YABO]

The reason why he said to stop underestimating hydreigon is because it has been consistently s rank for seemingly forever. Its drop has also been discussed several times and has been refuted every time. I'm not going to say anything else about why it should be s but as others have pointed out, it is stupidly good.

 

[Yugi]

About this hydreigon discussion i think that hydreigon shouldnt drop because how versatile it is and how it can stop many playstyles with 1 set.I also like it over salamence cuz it has access to double STABs unlike Salamence that doesnt use Fly or anything else.It also has a great ability in levitate gives it a ground immunity without a 2x ice weakness.Now that fairies have been introduced they hurt hydra but the only 2 viable fairies are Florges and Whimsicott and both of them are atleast 2HKOed By the Specs set Hogg so briefly mentioned.It is the most threatening mon in the UU tier and i dont think it should drop to A+

 

[Kink]

About this hydreigon discussion i think that hydreigon shouldnt drop because how versatile it is and how it can stop many playstyles with 1 set.I also like it over salamence cuz it has access to double STABs unlike Salamence that doesnt use Fly or anything else.It also has a great ability in levitate gives it a ground immunity without a 2x ice weakness.Now that fairies have been introduced they hurt hydra but the only 2 viable fairies are Florges and Whimsicott and both of them are atleast 2HKOed By the Specs set Hogg so briefly mentioned.It is the most threatening mon in the UU tier and i dont think it should drop to A+

As Yabo said, there needs to be more thought into making recommendations regarding long-standing Pokemon.

If you think a Pokemon deserves to be dropped from a longstanding position, be prepared to give hard evidence which also demonstrates what it can't do anymore as compared to what it used to be able to do. In Hydreigon's case, the viability of taunt roost has only increased its diversity and overall ability to wreak havoc. I can't stress this enough: it's fantastic that you guys have started backing up your points. I assure you, as a mod, this makes me very happy to see, but first gauge the history of the tier and try to accumulate as much knowledge as possible. This only adds to the validity in your post - veteran users can easily tell when an opinion was formulated on the basis of an instance, and not as an analysis of the entire situation.

 

[DaSpoofy]

I actually am testing this mon currently and as of right now i think C-.It doesnt have the immediate power to knock out something and i think a SD set is best for it right now.


It impresses me in so many levels but also it is underwhelming.It does take some hits with Eviolite but cant dish out that much without boosts.E.G i was playing a game and i had sneasel vs swampert(non mega),he had an item i used knock off and he was at 25% and i dropped it down to 1% that actually is dissapointing but also can get rid of threats like LO Hydra and other stuff.Its actually early for me right now but im sticking to C-.Also it does not do well against defensive steels even tho it has access to low kick.I think a set of either SD Icicle Crash with knock off and ice shard is a good set or low kick instead of ice shard.Idk i def think that this pokemon should be discussed.

SD won't be a very effective set because of the strong priority we have in the tier and because sneasel is weak so a lot of things just knock it out in one hit let alone after rocks damage. I mean you can try to bait a switch but thats high risk and at times low reward because something faster or something with great priority can come in an revenge kill after you kill something.

The best set will be a revenge killer type deal with the same viable options that Weavile has in OU. The best thing about sneasel is its incredible speed and the ice stab it carries to deal super effective damage to viable threats. Since beps post I've been trying out sneasel on ho with PJ. After all the lucario and cobalion switch ins, I went for low kick instead. Its a descent mon. Not too bad but not fantastic either. C rank would be a nice place for it.

 

[Cactrune]

Boy, we've sure been discussing a lot of Dark-types these days. I don't have the time to do my whole analysis thing, so I'll keep it short.

Yeah, I agree with Sneasel moving up to at least C-rank, because it's got insane coverage with its STABS alone, and it can be a serious nuisance thanks to Knock Off and Ice Shard. I do agree with DaSpoofy that Sneasel's best set would certainly not be one that utilizes Swords Dance, but rather a Life Orb set with Ice Shard, Knock Off, Icicle Crash, and Low Kick. I feel like Sneasel has a lot of potential on offense, and if you pair it with something like Dugtrio or Magneton, you can trap Steel-types and (if you're using Magneton) beat Water-types, allowing Sneasel to be even more effective.
I do accept that this Pokemon is a very flawed one with poor bulk and common checks, but these traits scream C-rank to me and I think it should be paid attention to.

As for the other 'mons, I agree with most of the rises. Granbull in particular is really effective in the current meta, and I'd be glad to see it go up after nominating it to at least 2 times in the past, lol. Mega Houndoom and the incredible Jellicent also deserve some attention. On the other hand, I don't think that Hydreigon should drop from S-rank, as it is still a monster. Also, I found another pretty cool/disturbing picture of Granbull for King UU and anyone else who is interested in this type of thing.

Yet another realistic Granbull

 

[Swagodile]

So, are we all in agreement that Gothitelle should be D until it drops from the tier?

 

[Nightingales]

I wouldn't even rank it. But yeah, probably.

 

[Choice Banned]

I wouldn't even rank it. But yeah, probably.

It has to be ranked because it's UU currently. D rank is for bad UU mons that are UU by usage so still must be ranked.

 

[Nightingales]

I mean it's likely to be quickdropped, so ranking it seems like a formality.

 

[Choice Banned]

I mean it's likely to be quickdropped, so ranking it seems like a formality.

Nah, it will likely be a case like Mawile or Pinsir, since unlike the quickdropped mons, Gothitelle was never RU/NU/PU before its ban.

 

[Schpoonman]

Quickdropping doesn't rely on prior tiering. It only relies on extremely low usage, somewhere around 1% or so, and it can be dropped in only one month.

 

[mdchan]

I'm wondering how Cloyster is C rank and not higher (I am fairly new to how rankings and what-not work, so I apologize if I've misunderstood it. I also don't know the usage percentage rankings of these mons, so I'm just going by experience rather than numbers which confuse me anyway; maybe its usage numbers aren't very high).

I see it on at least 1 out of 3 teams in random battles, it's a good check to the common dragon-types in the tier due to Skill Link Icicle Spear, and has access to Shell Smash which makes it even scarier (I nearly got swept by a Shell Smash Cloyster, who managed to take down one of my mons who resisted its ice and rock moves by the time Skill Link was through with it).

Other mons I think should move up would be the ones which are hard to break down; most of them are already ranked pretty high, but it feels like they're still ranked slightly low for their roles. Cresselia, for example, is such a huge wall that it can sit there and set up on pretty much anything (I've even tried to take it down with dark-type moves, granted they weren't STAB, and they barely even did 30% to it).
I feel Shaymin should be moved up to A+ instead of A, as well. It's another common mon, and I've encountered both sweepers and support shaymins. Even a STAB Sludge Bomb would have been a 3HKO on the defensive variety (if I had actually managed to take it down). Since Shaymin has Natural Cure and often runs Synthesis, one needs to run a faster super effective STAB move to take it out (and good luck if there are still team members left so it can switch out and cure any status).

These are just a couple observations after playing the tier for a little bit. Again, I apologize if I misunderstood how viability rankings work (after my experience in another one of the tiers, I'm afraid of being talked down to and made fun of for trying to contribute while still learning, but I still want to contribute, so I figured I'd post this).