Sketchmons ORAS - Diggersby and Shell Smash Banned!

[DoW]

I think the idea is that, for things that aren't setup sweepers or scarf holders, you Encore them into a setup move. No opinion on the set's efficacy (it seems that things with Priority that don't boost speed would get around it, as would speed boosters with reduced-priority moves), but Metal Burst is definitely justifiable in the context of the set's purpose.

Eh, in that case Sableye almost certainly outclasses it TBH. It outspeeds practically everything with encore + taunt while outslowing everything with metal burst, and having usable physical bulk and a very nice typing even if its special bulk is worse.

 

[Josh]

Diggersby should definitely be in S rank. After an SD, ExtremeSpeed OHKO's just about anything neutral and some resists. Earthquake deals with most of said resists. It's an incredibly hard mon to switch into, and can even 2hko Skarm with Wild Charge (252+ Atk Life Orb Huge Power Diggersby Wild Charge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 190-224 (56.8 - 67%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery). I don't really need to explain this forever, because everybody already knows what it is capable of and I don't understand how it can be in A+ yet Clefable is in S.

On that note, I'm probably the 5th or 6th person to do this but nominating Clefable to drop to A (not even A+ imo). It's great in theory, when you consider the prowess of set-up sweepers in the meta. However it's bulk is actually pretty bad (95/73/90 defenses iirc) and everything in the meta also has access to far more powerful options. Just looking at S/A+:

wall of calcs, this is every A+ S- and S+ ranked mon

252 SpA Life Orb Thundurus Thunderbolt vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Clefable: 203-239 (51.6 - 60.8%) -- 93.4% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Life Orb Teravolt Kyurem-B Iron Head vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 268-317 (68.1 - 80.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery (not to mention this one can't be stopped after setup anyways due to Teravolt)
252+ Atk Life Orb Huge Power Diggersby Extreme Speed vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 192-227 (48.8 - 57.7%) -- 56.3% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 SpA Heatran Flash Cannon vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Clefable: 236-278 (60 - 70.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Pixilate Mega Altaria Extreme Speed vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 133-157 (33.8 - 39.9%) -- 29.2% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X V-create vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 376-444 (95.6 - 112.9%) -- 75% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Technician Mega Scizor Bullet Punch vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 212-252 (53.9 - 64.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery (and this is assuming it's not Gear Grind which is very common)
252 SpA Keldeo Water Spout (150 BP) vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Clefable: 264-312 (67.1 - 79.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Life Orb Gengar Sludge Wave vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Clefable: 439-517 (111.7 - 131.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Mega Lopunny Return vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 153-180 (38.9 - 45.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Life Orb Garchomp Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 207-243 (52.6 - 61.8%) -- 98.4% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
(too lazy to calc hoopa u but gunk shot easily ohkos and hyperspace hole 2hkos)
0 SpA Mega Sableye Shadow Ball vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Clefable: 82-97 (20.8 - 24.6%) -- possible 6HKO after Leftovers recovery
216 SpA Life Orb Tornadus-T Hurricane vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Clefable: 220-259 (55.9 - 65.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Mega Metagross Gear Grind (2 hits) vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 340-408 (86.5 - 103.8%) -- approx. 6.3% chance to OHKO

I tried to include the best move out of the most common sets for each mon; sorry for any errata of missed moves.

Basically, out of the 16 A+ / S rank mons, Clefable can switch into 3 of them. Mega Sableye, Mega Lopunny and Mega Altaria. The rest of them all 2hko or ohko it. Plus, you can argue it can revenge them, but it can't even 2hko most of them back because you have to run full bulk in order to live a hit. If you aren't running bulky Clefable, just about everything here can 2HKO or OHKO it short of Mega Sableye. You can argue, hey, most of these mons cant switch into a lot of A+/S as well, right? They mostly switch into about the same amount as Clefable or even a few less ocasionally. The thing is, Clefable is S ranked for its defensive capabilities. It's outclassed by far offensively (hi boomburst mgarde and sylveon). And, if anything has trouble with Clefable, they can toss Gear Grind, Bullet Punch or Flash Cannon on any set they want because this is Sketchmons.

Am I arguing Clefable is bad? No. But it sure as hell isn't S rank in sketchmons, just because it's one of the top mons in OU doesn't mean it is here.

 

[thesecondbest]

Tornt needs a rise... Oblivion wing gives sooo much health back. I played against ghoul king the other day and if torn had a fighting move it would 6-0 him, buy he pursuited it with ttar a few times and it died. It checks keldeo to hell and back and most other sptk mons. Really potent rn and deserves a raise

 

[Imperator Romanum]

Right now we're looking at Clefable from the perspective as a support Pokemon in terms of what it's capable of and the possibilities and traits that it can provide as a team asset in the current meta-game as of right now. What the focus has been in response to Clefable to going to S has mainly been its power output when used as a comparison amongst both the A+ and S rank Pokemon. Realize that a Pokemon's placement is also dependent on the utility it can provide for a team in regards to threat control, a team's overall effectiveness as either a defensive or offensive asset, as well as the effectiveness of the Pokemon itself.

First of all, clefable's stats suck. It's really only saved by it's typing and two abilities. It's bulk is actually not good for a defensive mon. For clefable to be able to switch in to the mons that it beats, it needs to be at full health or near full health. Often times having to take a few stray volt switches or u-turns, or a weak resisted attack can be the difference between clefable being able to safely switch in or being 2HKOed. A simpler way to put it would be that clefable really needs to be at full health to function well. I don't know if anyone else has ever noticed but in many games I just notice myself having to keep spamming softboiled just to keep healthy and often times you'll just be giving away free turns by doing that.

Besides that, you can easily slap one on your team as it covers a good portion of the meta and has good synergy with a lot of mons. It can fulfill many roles that other pokemon can't, such as being an SR setter, set up sweeper, cleric, wish passer, and check to a lot of mons. it’s the perfect utility mon in a sense that it can always get up sr and beat all spinners/defoggers. it’s ability + typing make it an excellent pivot or sweeper as well as a valid move pool to boot. if it wasn’t for its “poor stats” i think it’d be too much to handle. it has great utility in sr, twave, knock off, healbell, encore etc. the unaware version stops set up sweepers and clefable is just a mon that can be slapped on to any type of team. it has solid recovery in soft boiled/heal bell and two amazing abilities.

Definitely support this. Clefable's ability to fit on so many teams as well as offering tons of support and utility makes it a pretty much no-brainer S rank. The thing really holding it back from being Uber is its mediocre bulk, forcing it soft-boiled/moonlight often. Pokemon can be judged in 4 different areas: Ability, Movepool, Stats and Typing. Clefable excels in 3 of those 4 criteria. Clefable is also an extremely reliable stealth rock setter, as it is pretty much able to beat every defogger in the tier. Clefable can also serve as a reliable but scary win condition against stall and balance teams with its calm mind + magic guard set, which can be extremely difficult to stop once it gets going. Unaware Clefable can also act as a blanket check to multiple dangerous sweepers in Sketchmons, such as Quiver dance users like Manaphy, Thundurus, Keldeo, Diancie, Belly Drum/Shift gear Azumarill, Landorus-Therian, Garchomp ect, dragon dance altaria, calm mind mega sableye, calm mind ratios/mega latias and dragon dance gyarados. However, what I think puts clefable in S is its sheer adaptability. Clefable has the ability to surprise nearly all its checks with a coverage move, as well as run tons of different very viable sets, making it an unpredictable opponent to face. Some examples of this are ice beam for gliscor, thunderbolt for talonflame, focus blast for heatran, knock off for gengar, fire blast for ferrothorn/scizor/excadrill and thunder wave for a ton of sweepers and encore to turn set up pokemon into liabilities. Clefable is just so adaptable, dangerous and splashable that I fail to see the relevance of many of the counter S arguments. It's ability to shift arounds its EVs to counter a plethora of threads is amazing in the current metagame, gaining reliable recovery and a great set up move is a god scent, Will o Wisp can be used to cripple threats that'll overpower it.

Edit: If Clefable had 10+ In each of its stat it would get quick banned. Its stats are literally the only thing holding it back.

 

[Josh]

Right now we're looking at Clefable from the perspective as a support Pokemon in terms of what it's capable of and the possibilities and traits that it can provide as a team asset in the current meta-game as of right now. What the focus has been in response to Clefable to going to S has mainly been its power output when used as a comparison amongst both the A+ and S rank Pokemon. Realize that a Pokemon's placement is also dependent on the utility it can provide for a team in regards to threat control, a team's overall effectiveness as either a defensive or offensive asset, as well as the effectiveness of the Pokemon itself.

First of all, clefable's stats suck. It's really only saved by it's typing and two abilities. It's bulk is actually not good for a defensive mon. For clefable to be able to switch in to the mons that it beats, it needs to be at full health or near full health. Often times having to take a few stray volt switches or u-turns, or a weak resisted attack can be the difference between clefable being able to safely switch in or being 2HKOed. A simpler way to put it would be that clefable really needs to be at full health to function well. I don't know if anyone else has ever noticed but in many games I just notice myself having to keep spamming softboiled just to keep healthy and often times you'll just be giving away free turns by doing that.

Besides that, you can easily slap one on your team as it covers a good portion of the meta and has good synergy with a lot of mons. It can fulfill many roles that other pokemon can't, such as being an SR setter, set up sweeper, cleric, wish passer, and check to a lot of mons. it’s the perfect utility mon in a sense that it can always get up sr and beat all spinners/defoggers. it’s ability + typing make it an excellent pivot or sweeper as well as a valid move pool to boot. if it wasn’t for its “poor stats” i think it’d be too much to handle. it has great utility in sr, twave, knock off, healbell, encore etc. the unaware version stops set up sweepers and clefable is just a mon that can be slapped on to any type of team. it has solid recovery in soft boiled/heal bell and two amazing abilities.

Definitely support this. Clefable's ability to fit on so many teams as well as offering tons of support and utility makes it a pretty much no-brainer S rank. The thing really holding it back from being Uber is its mediocre bulk, forcing it soft-boiled/moonlight often. Pokemon can be judged in 4 different areas: Ability, Movepool, Stats and Typing. Clefable excels in 3 of those 4 criteria. Clefable is also an extremely reliable stealth rock setter, as it is pretty much able to beat every defogger in the tier. Clefable can also serve as a reliable but scary win condition against stall and balance teams with its calm mind + magic guard set, which can be extremely difficult to stop once it gets going. Unaware Clefable can also act as a blanket check to multiple dangerous sweepers in Sketchmons, such as Quiver dance users like Manaphy, Thundurus, Keldeo, Diancie, Belly Drum/Shift gear Azumarill, Landorus-Therian, Garchomp ect, dragon dance altaria, calm mind mega sableye, calm mind ratios/mega latias and dragon dance gyarados. However, what I think puts clefable in S is its sheer adaptability. Clefable has the ability to surprise nearly all its checks with a coverage move, as well as run tons of different very viable sets, making it an unpredictable opponent to face. Some examples of this are ice beam for gliscor, thunderbolt for talonflame, focus blast for heatran, knock off for gengar, fire blast for ferrothorn/scizor/excadrill and thunder wave for a ton of sweepers and encore to turn set up pokemon into liabilities. Clefable is just so adaptable, dangerous and splashable that I fail to see the relevance of many of the counter S arguments. It's ability to shift arounds its EVs to counter a plethora of threads is amazing in the current metagame, gaining reliable recovery and a great set up move is a god scent, Will o Wisp can be used to cripple threats that'll overpower it.

I'll go through this one argument at a time.

Besides that, you can easily slap one on your team as it covers a good portion of the meta and has good synergy with a lot of mons. It can fulfill many roles that other pokemon can't, such as being an SR setter, set up sweeper, cleric, wish passer, and check to a lot of mons. it’s the perfect utility mon in a sense that it can always get up sr and beat all spinners/defoggers.

It doesn't matter that it can run a lot of potential sets, if none of them are actually good. Why use it as a SR setter when you have things like Skarm or bulky mons in general who can serve multiple roles such as checking espeed, as well as set rocks? Or for that matter, literally anything else since anything can sketch SR? Clefable isn't really an offensive asset either; 93 Spa is subpar and there are far more viable special sweepers. Wish passing isn't even viable in Sketchmons because of how overpowering HO is, and there being very few scenarios to safely wishpass. It can't beat all defoggers/spinners: the most common spinner, aka excadrill, shits on it and literally anything else can spin/defog while also checking it because this is Sketchmons.
It can do a lot of things; it does none of them well.

Pokemon can be judged in 4 different areas: Ability, Movepool, Stats and Typing. Clefable excels in 3 of those 4 criteria.

Wrong. They can be judged in many other ways as well, most notably how they fair against the current metagame trends. HO is by far the trending team archetype, and while that would be fine for Clefable in OU, everything is a whole lot more powerful in Sketchmons whereas Clefable isn't any bulkier. Seeing as the most used mons in the metagame right now all beat Clefable bar Sableye, it doesn't have a place being in S.

Clefable can also serve as a reliable but scary win condition against stall and balance teams with its calm mind + magic guard set, which can be extremely difficult to stop once it gets going.

What exactly is sketched that is more viable than running Quiver Dance over Calm Mind? Besides that though, this simply isn't true. "Once it gets going" isn't likely to happen because of how quickly everything bops it, and even if it "gets going", an espeeder can come in and shit on it to revenge it.
And again, Balance/Stall isn't really relevant in Sketchmons.

Unaware Clefable can also act as a blanket check to multiple dangerous sweepers in Sketchmons, such as Quiver dance users like Manaphy, Thundurus, Keldeo, Diancie, Belly Drum/Shift gear Azumarill, Landorus-Therian, Garchomp ect, dragon dance altaria, calm mind mega sableye, calm mind ratios/mega latias and dragon dance gyarados.

This must be the softest check in history. Keldeo is nearly always choiced, Thundurus nearly always runs sporevoid or Obwing, Manaphy prefers tail glow freeze dry or reliable recovery, etc. I can keep going. Checking very specific sets isn't meta defining.

Clefable has the ability to surprise nearly all its checks with a coverage move, as well as run tons of different very viable sets, making it an unpredictable opponent to face. Some examples of this are ice beam for gliscor, thunderbolt for talonflame, focus blast for heatran, knock off for gengar, fire blast for ferrothorn/scizor/excadrill and thunder wave for a ton of sweepers and encore to turn set up pokemon into liabilities. Clefable is just so adaptable, dangerous and splashable that I fail to see the relevance of many of the counter S arguments. It's ability to shift arounds its EVs to counter a plethora of threads is amazing in the current metagame, gaining reliable recovery and a great set up move is a god scent, Will o Wisp can be used to cripple threats that'll overpower it.

Guess what? Literally everything in sketchmons can do this. That's the whole point of sketchmons; you can sketch whatever move you need. Anything can be unpredictable in Sketchmons.


Tl;dr: Your arguments, for the most part, apply to OU. Not Sketchmons. In general Clefable just isn't great in this meta.

 

[Chopin Alkaninoff]

Since the thread is relatively dead, I'll keep it alive by making list of common threats that you need to prepare for (well, it's quite impossible to cover them all, but at least you prepare for it). I did this in Inheritance, and now I feel I should do this in here because even though the possibilities are too many, there are some things that stand out. Sketch moves bolded.

1. Physical Attackers

Extremespeeders

Diggersby

Diggersby is the strongest Extremespeeder in the tier. Two sets are quite commonly used, Choiced and Life Orb. They have different roles.

Diggersby @ Life Orb
Ability: Huge Power
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Swords Dance
- Extremespeed
- Earthquake
- Substitute / Knock Off / Wild Charge

This is the standard Life Orb Diggersby with Swords Dance. It's power allows it to sweep anything unresisted and Earthquake is for those that resist Extremespeed. Knock Off is to it Ghost types and Wild Charge is for Skarmory, although it can also be used against Ghost types as well. Jolly is the prefered Nature to outspeed other Diggersby and Adamant base 80 Speeds before it boost itself (Dragonite for example).

Diggersby @ Choice Band
Ability: Huge Power
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- U-turn
- Extremespeed
- Earthquake
- Knock Off / Wild Charge

The difference of this and the Life Orb set is Banded Earthquake can 2HKO full Physically Defensive Garchomp and Hippowdon if they aren't holding Leftovers (usually Sand teams carry Smooth Rock). It also got U-turn to keep momentum in case someone switches in checks.

Mega Altaria

After Mega Pinsir got banned, Mega Altaria is pretty much the only poke with -ate that can boost itself with Dragon Dance and has notable amount of Attack stat (Mega Glalie can't boost itself). Mega Altaria's main set is Extremespeed, but some people use it's Special Attacking stat by using Quiver Dance.

Altaria @ Altarianite
Ability: Natural Cure
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Adamant / Jolly Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Extremespeed
- Earthquake
- Roost

The standard Dragon Dance Mega Altaria. Pixilate Extremespeed hits very hard and lets you hit Ghost and Rock types, who resists and immune to Normal type. Sableye is a good example of a poke that can stop Diggersby, but not Mega Altaria because of Pixilate. Because Mega Altaria has the same stats in both offenses, it's quite unpredictable because it can run Special sets. Here is an example of Special set.

Altaria @ Altarianite
Ability: Natural Cure
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe (there are maybe a better spread than this)
Timid / Modest Nature
- Roost
- Quiver Dance
- Hyper Voice
- Fire Blast

Mega Lopunny

Mega Lopunny stands out as one of the few pokes with Scrappy, Fake Out and Extremespeed. It's also the fastest Normal type in the meta, letting it revenge other Extremespeed users. Scrappy allows it to hit Ghost types too.

Lopunny @ Lopunnite
Ability: Limber
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Fake Out
- Extremespeed
- High Jump Kick
- Encore / Healing Wish / Power-up Punch / Toxic / Ice Punch / Baton Pass

Adamant is the preferred Nature here because even with Adamant Nature, it still outspeed positive natured pokes with 115 Speed and below (so it can still revenge Jolly Ambipom even if it has Extremespeed). The fourth move can have many possibilities from support, keeping momentum to coverage options.

Azumarill

WHAT? Azumarill? How's Azumarill become a relevant Extremespeeder? Well, it's Water/Fairy typing lets it checks and set up in front of a lot of things, unlike those Normal types. It also have Aqua Jet as an alternative priority move in case the opposing poke resists Extremespeed. Also, Belly Drum can serve as an instant win condition. Because of Aqua Jet, this poke is HARDER to stop than other Bellyspeeders like Snorlax. It can also run Shift Gear for surprises in case Extremespeed is too predictable.

Azumarill @ Sitrus Berry
Ability: Huge Power
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Def
Adamant Nature
- Belly Drum
- Extremespeed
- Aqua Jet / Waterfall
- Play Rough

The EV spread here maximize HP because you want it to be as bulky as possible while it sets up Belly Drum. It's also slow, so even with max Speed, it won't outspeed many things. Other possible sets is Shift Gear, which boost it's low Speed to be as fast as Mega Aerodactyl. Here is a possible set.

Azumarill @ Life Orb
Ability: Huge Power
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Shift Gear
- Waterfall
- Play Rough
- Aqua Jet / Knock Off

There are also Choice Band sets for raw power and give it more attacking options like Superpower.

Dragonite

Dragonite's access to Multiscale and Extremespeed make it nearly guaranteed to set up and turn it into an unrevengable sweeper after a Shell Smash as long as your opponent doesn't have Fake Out. It also has a wide options of coverage moves and recovery in form of Roost.

Dragonite @ White Herb / Lum Berry
Ability: Multiscale
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Adamant / Jolly Nature
- Shell Smash
- Dragon Claw / Earthquake / Ice Punch / Fire Punch
- Extremespeed
- Iron Head / Earthquake / Roost

Dragonite also lacks a good Flying STAB move. A choiced set may greatly benefit by getting a good Flying STAB.

Dragonite @ Choice Band
Ability: Multiscale
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Dragon Ascent
- Dragon Claw
- Earthquake
- Iron Head / Ice Punch / Thunder Punch

Speed boosting set up sweepers
This category actually has too many possibilities, but I'll try to list the common ones.

Mega Metagross

Mega Metagoss' Steel type and high defense make it hard to be revenged by Extremespeeders, although it's vulnurable to Sucker Punch. It's Tough Claws Meteor Mash make it doesn't care about Clefable and Grass Knot lets it kill Quagsire. It also has quite a wide coverage with Earthquake, Hammer Arm, Ice Punch, Thunder Punch. Here is a possible set

Metagross @ Metagrossite
Ability: Clear Body
EVs: 32 HP / 252 Atk / 224 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Shift Gear
- Meteor Mash
- Zen Headbutt
- Earthquake / Ice Punch / Thunder Punch / Grass Knot

The EV spread lets you outspeed Jolly Excadrill, so that Excadrill can't outspeed and revenge you after Shift Gear. It also lets you outspeed Jolly Landorus-Therian and hit it with Ice Punch if you carry one (just hope it isn't Scarfed). You don't really need Jolly because you'll be outspeeding everything anyways after +2.

Kyurem-Black

Kyurem-Black's Ability, Teravolt (which is the same as Mold Breaker), makes it doesn't care about Unaware Users like Clefable and Quagsire. It also has the bulk to take on Extremespeeds (except from Mega Altaria). It also has decent Speed that will outspeed anything after one Shell Smash.

Kyurem-Black @ White Herb
Ability: Teravolt
EVs: 252 Atk / 56 SpA / 200 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Shell Smash
- Dragon Claw
- Ice Beam
- Fusion Bolt

The EV spread lets you outspeed Jolly Excadrill, so that Excadrill can't outspeed and revenge you after Shell Smash. Other set possibility is Quiver Dance with 101 HP Sub, so that Chansey can't break it with Seismic Toss. Here is a sample set.

Kyurem-Black @ Leftovers
Ability: Teravolt
EVs: 52 HP / 200 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Quiver Dance
- Substitute
- Roost / Dragon Pulse
- Ice Beam
Kyurem-Black also lacks of what makes it not Uber, which is Physical Ice STAB. A Choiced set with Physical Ice STAB is also possible. Here's another sample set.

Kyurem-Black @ Choice Scarf / Choice Band
Ability: Teravolt
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Icicle Crash
- Dragon Claw
- Iron Head
- Fusion Bolt

Mega Garchomp

In standard, Mega Garchomp is already powerful, but it has a lower Viability than regular Garchomp because it is hampered by the decrease in Speed. It also lacks a Dragon Dance, unlike other 600 BST Dragons. Now, it has access to Shift Gear, making it a very powerful sweeper, especially in Sandstorm because of Sand Force boost. It's Earthquake in Sand hits harder than Life Orb Diggersby, which is enough to break walls. It also has the bulk to take Extremespeeds, which make it quite hard to stop once it sweeps.

Garchomp @ Garchmpite
Ability: Sand Veil
EVs: 32 HP / 252 Atk / 224 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Shift Gear
- Earthquake
- Stone Edge / Dragon Claw
- Iron Head

The EV spread is designed to outspeed Jolly Diggersby in Sand, so that you don't get revenge killed. Stone Edge is the preferred move because of EdgeQuake combo and Sand Force boosted Stone Edge hits harder than STAB Dragon Claw. But if Accuracy is an issue, Daryon Claw is always an option.

Excadrill

Excadrill is one of the strongest weather sweepers and is the strongest sweeper in Sandstorm. It has the second highest Attack among all weather sweepers (135, second only to Mega Swampert). It already have the tools it needs wiith the exception of a good Rock type move. Now it has one, which makes it a threat.

Excadrill @ Life Orb / Earth Plate
Ability: Sand Rush
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Adamant / Jolly Nature
- Swords Dance
- Earthquake
- Diamond Storm / Head Smash
- Iron Head

Life Orb is the preferred item, but if you care about Life Orb recoil, Earth Plate is better. In that case, Head Smash compensates the power loss of from Life Orb, though it does have a heavy recoil. I would NOT recommend using Life Orb and Head Smash at the same time because of the huge amount of recoil. Shift Gear is another possible set in case you don't have a chance to set up Sand. though it leaves you with the weak Rock Slide as the Rock move. Spore is also a possible move if you want to neutralize walls.

Excadrill @ Life Orb
Ability: Sand Rush
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Adamant / Jolly Nature
- Shift Gear
- Earthquake
- Rock Slide
- Iron Head

Others

Aerodactyl (and Mega)

Aerodactyl has no STAB move to abuse it's Ability both non-Mega and Mega. Well, now it has, making it able to hit very hard and make use of it's Ability. Here's a sample set.

Aerodactyl @ Choice Band / Life Orb / Focus Sash
Ability: Rock Head
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Head Smash
- Earthquake
- Ice Fang / Taunt
- coverage / Roost / Stealth Rock / Hone Claws

Head Smash hits extremely hard while Rock Head makes you not take any recoil damage. Item depends on what role you want. If you want a stronger, faster attacker with a little more bulk, there's the mega form as long as you don't mind wasting a mega slot.

Aerodactyl @ Aerodactylite
Ability: Rock Head
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Dragon Ascent
- Earthquake
- Stone Edge
- Ice Fang / Roost / Stealth Rock

Landorus-Therian

Landorus-Therian normally lacks a Flying STAB. Now that it gets one, it now has a near perfect coverage just from its STAB move. It also has a nice bulk when factoring Intimidate, able to soft check many things.

Landorus-Therian @ Choice Scarf / Band
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Dragon Ascent
- Earthquake
- Knock Off / Stone Edge
- U-turn

Dragon Ascent here is the preferred move because Brave Bird has a quite high amount of recoil. If you need a way to hit Zapdos, there's Stone Edge as a coverage move. It can also run a Physicaly Defensive set by sketching Roost or Defog if you want it to be a defogger.

Landorus-Therian @ Leftovers / Rocky Helmet
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 Def
Impish Nature
- Roost / Defog
- Earthquake
- Stealth Rock / Stone Edge / Swords Dance
- Stone Edge / Knock Off

More coming soon. Will do Kyurem-Black, Mega Scizor, Aerodactyl, Dragonite, weather sweepers, Special Attackers, Contrary users, Prankster users.

Edit: Kyurem-Black done

Edit 2: most Physical Attackers done. There's still Mega Scizor, Jirachi and Talonflame left. Idk if I will do Special Attacker section. It's so many that I need help.

 

[thesecondbest]

Right now we're looking at Clefable from the perspective as a support Pokemon in terms of what it's capable of and the possibilities and traits that it can provide as a team asset in the current meta-game as of right now. What the focus has been in response to Clefable to going to S has mainly been its power output when used as a comparison amongst both the A+ and S rank Pokemon. Realize that a Pokemon's placement is also dependent on the utility it can provide for a team in regards to threat control, a team's overall effectiveness as either a defensive or offensive asset, as well as the effectiveness of the Pokemon itself.

First of all, clefable's stats suck. It's really only saved by it's typing and two abilities. It's bulk is actually not good for a defensive mon. For clefable to be able to switch in to the mons that it beats, it needs to be at full health or near full health. Often times having to take a few stray volt switches or u-turns, or a weak resisted attack can be the difference between clefable being able to safely switch in or being 2HKOed. A simpler way to put it would be that clefable really needs to be at full health to function well. I don't know if anyone else has ever noticed but in many games I just notice myself having to keep spamming softboiled just to keep healthy and often times you'll just be giving away free turns by doing that.

Besides that, you can easily slap one on your team as it covers a good portion of the meta and has good synergy with a lot of mons. It can fulfill many roles that other pokemon can't, such as being an SR setter, set up sweeper, cleric, wish passer, and check to a lot of mons. it’s the perfect utility mon in a sense that it can always get up sr and beat all spinners/defoggers. it’s ability + typing make it an excellent pivot or sweeper as well as a valid move pool to boot. if it wasn’t for its “poor stats” i think it’d be too much to handle. it has great utility in sr, twave, knock off, healbell, encore etc. the unaware version stops set up sweepers and clefable is just a mon that can be slapped on to any type of team. it has solid recovery in soft boiled/heal bell and two amazing abilities.

Definitely support this. Clefable's ability to fit on so many teams as well as offering tons of support and utility makes it a pretty much no-brainer S rank. The thing really holding it back from being Uber is its mediocre bulk, forcing it soft-boiled/moonlight often. Pokemon can be judged in 4 different areas: Ability, Movepool, Stats and Typing. Clefable excels in 3 of those 4 criteria. Clefable is also an extremely reliable stealth rock setter, as it is pretty much able to beat every defogger in the tier. Clefable can also serve as a reliable but scary win condition against stall and balance teams with its calm mind + magic guard set, which can be extremely difficult to stop once it gets going. Unaware Clefable can also act as a blanket check to multiple dangerous sweepers in Sketchmons, such as Quiver dance users like Manaphy, Thundurus, Keldeo, Diancie, Belly Drum/Shift gear Azumarill, Landorus-Therian, Garchomp ect, dragon dance altaria, calm mind mega sableye, calm mind ratios/mega latias and dragon dance gyarados. However, what I think puts clefable in S is its sheer adaptability. Clefable has the ability to surprise nearly all its checks with a coverage move, as well as run tons of different very viable sets, making it an unpredictable opponent to face. Some examples of this are ice beam for gliscor, thunderbolt for talonflame, focus blast for heatran, knock off for gengar, fire blast for ferrothorn/scizor/excadrill and thunder wave for a ton of sweepers and encore to turn set up pokemon into liabilities. Clefable is just so adaptable, dangerous and splashable that I fail to see the relevance of many of the counter S arguments. It's ability to shift arounds its EVs to counter a plethora of threads is amazing in the current metagame, gaining reliable recovery and a great set up move is a god scent, Will o Wisp can be used to cripple threats that'll overpower it.

Edit: If Clefable had 10+ In each of its stat it would get quick banned. Its stats are literally the only thing holding it back.

Anything in OU would be broken with ten more in each stat. Imagine a manaphy that outruns keldeo and is as powerful as latias. Think of a Kyurem-Black with the same attack as Deo-A and even more bulk (although Kyu-B is already broken).
I agree Clefable's stats suck. It can't combat any of the top threats. Kyu-B can run iron head to end your hopes and dreams. Thundurus can abuse sleep, which is a broken strategy, and easily beat you like that. Unaware can tank espeed from altaria but dream on if you think you live boombursts. Even at +1 it two hit kos. Diggersby annihilates you with eq and moonblast isn't koing back. Heatran eats you with taunt or flash cannon. Zard x vcreate also eats you. Scizor? You can't beat that. Keldeo Water spout eats you too. Gengar? lol. Loppuny? FINALLY one thing clefable can beat. Garchomp you beat too. Hoopa gunk shot is rip. Topsy turvy sableye actually beats you if you get greedy. Torn-T knocks you off and only fears status. And metagross? we know clef loses.
What does clef beat? Nothing. It being S is ridiculous. And if you're running unaware, you can't even use this argument that "hey at least it doesnt get whittled!". Joshz summed it up beautifully:
"everything is a whole lot more powerful in Sketchmons whereas Clefable isn't any bulkier." You wall zero things and shouldn't even be A+. Drop this piece of crap to A. It belongs with stuff it actually beats, like Serperior, and I'd even put it lower since it seems worse than Chansey. Clef in S is ludicrous. At least show replays to back it up, because calcs don't lie and they sure as hell don't support your argument.

 

[Ghoul King]

Main thing I want to chip in with is that saying Clefable beats Defoggers and Rapid Spinners is wrong because literally anything can be a defogger or Rapid Spinner. I ran Sylveon as an unblockable Rapid Spinner for a bit, Defog Chansey, I've seen Defog Tyranitar...

 

[Imperator Romanum]

lol, Clefable isn't supposed to be "beating" things, it's supposed to be supporting things and both of you don't realise that's why it's ranked, should we drop Chansey to unranked because it barely beats anything 1v1?

And looking at the calcs, they are retarded, of course fucking clefable isn't living Gear Grind from Mega Metagross (LOL). Why would it stay in? Metagross also can't switch in, for the record fearing a fire move or t-wave.

Here's some more realistic calcs. These are different clefable sets, made to wall certain pokemon.

252 SpA Life Orb Thundurus Thunderbolt vs. 248 HP / 96+ SpD Clefable: 165-196 (41.9 - 49.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ Atk Life Orb Kyurem Icicle Crash vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 175-207 (44.5 - 52.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 Atk Landorus-T Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 156-184 (39.6 - 46.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ Atk Mega Lopunny Frustration vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 166-196 (42.2 - 49.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ Atk Pixilate Mega Altaria Extreme Speed vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 145-172 (36.8 - 43.7%) -- 99.8% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ SpA Pixilate Mega Altaria Hyper Voice vs. 248 HP / 96+ SpD Clefable: 168-198 (42.7 - 50.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 Atk Garchomp Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 144-171 (36.6 - 43.5%) -- 99.4% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

216 SpA Life Orb Tornadus-T Hurricane vs. 248 HP / 96+ SpD Clefable: 181-214 (46 - 54.4%) -- 6.3% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 Atk Life Orb Weavile Icicle Crash vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 149-177 (37.9 - 45%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ Atk Huge Power Azumarill Play Rough vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 157-186 (39.9 - 47.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 SpA Mega Sceptile Leaf Storm vs. 248 HP / 96+ SpD Clefable: 205-243 (52.1 - 61.8%) -- 97.7% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 Atk Tyranitar Stone Edge vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 147-174 (37.4 - 44.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after sandstorm damage and Leftovers recovery

252+ SpA Mega Slowbro Scald vs. 248 HP / 96+ SpD Clefable: 129-153 (32.8 - 38.9%) -- 5.4% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 SpA Mega Diancie Moonblast vs. 248 HP / 96+ SpD Clefable: 162-192 (41.2 - 48.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

16 Atk Mega Diancie Diamond Storm vs. 248 HP / 160 Def Clefable: 175-207 (44.5 - 52.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 Atk Sharp Beak Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 151-178 (38.4 - 45.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 SpA Serperior Leaf Storm vs. 248 HP / 96+ SpD Clefable: 132-156 (33.5 - 39.6%) -- 19% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 SpA Mega Alakazam Psyshock vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 144-171 (36.6 - 43.5%) -- 99.4% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

4 SpA Mega Latias Stored Power (380 BP) vs. +6 248 HP / 96 SpD Unaware Clefable: 135-160 (34.3 - 40.7%) -- 55.7% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 Atk Life Orb Terrakion Stone Edge vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 187-220 (47.5 - 55.9%) -- 21.5% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ Atk Mold Breaker Mega Gyarados Waterfall vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 144-171 (36.6 - 43.5%) -- 99.4% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

You're speaking out of your ass, this is just S to A and it's walling 19 fucking pokemon, of which nothing wants to switch in to Clefable, there are no counters to this thing, and though it doesn't have a lot of imitate offensive presence, it certainly does after a quiver dance. And yes, a lot of these pokemon have ways around Clefable, like yeh, Landorus-t can run Choice band/LO, doesn't make Clefable any less of a check to it, and a good defensive check at that.

You're still thinking of clefable as an offensive pokemon, when in reality it's an incredible splashable pokemon which many have seen me use on my stall team to great effect, in a metagame centered around setup it's incredible important

 

[MK]

lol, Clefable isn't supposed to be "beating" things, it's supposed to be supporting things and both of you don't realise that's why it's ranked, should we drop Chansey to unranked because it barely beats anything 1v1?

And looking at the calcs, they are retarded, of course fucking clefable isn't living Gear Grind from Mega Metagross (LOL). Why would it stay in? Metagross also can't switch in, for the record fearing a fire move or t-wave.

Here's some more realistic calcs. These are different clefable sets, made to wall certain pokemon.

252 SpA Life Orb Thundurus Thunderbolt vs. 248 HP / 96+ SpD Clefable: 165-196 (41.9 - 49.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ Atk Life Orb Kyurem Icicle Crash vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 175-207 (44.5 - 52.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 Atk Landorus-T Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 156-184 (39.6 - 46.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ Atk Mega Lopunny Frustration vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 166-196 (42.2 - 49.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ Atk Pixilate Mega Altaria Extreme Speed vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 145-172 (36.8 - 43.7%) -- 99.8% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ SpA Pixilate Mega Altaria Hyper Voice vs. 248 HP / 96+ SpD Clefable: 168-198 (42.7 - 50.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 Atk Garchomp Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 144-171 (36.6 - 43.5%) -- 99.4% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

216 SpA Life Orb Tornadus-T Hurricane vs. 248 HP / 96+ SpD Clefable: 181-214 (46 - 54.4%) -- 6.3% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 Atk Life Orb Weavile Icicle Crash vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 149-177 (37.9 - 45%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ Atk Huge Power Azumarill Play Rough vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 157-186 (39.9 - 47.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 SpA Mega Sceptile Leaf Storm vs. 248 HP / 96+ SpD Clefable: 205-243 (52.1 - 61.8%) -- 97.7% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 Atk Tyranitar Stone Edge vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 147-174 (37.4 - 44.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after sandstorm damage and Leftovers recovery

252+ SpA Mega Slowbro Scald vs. 248 HP / 96+ SpD Clefable: 129-153 (32.8 - 38.9%) -- 5.4% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 SpA Mega Diancie Moonblast vs. 248 HP / 96+ SpD Clefable: 162-192 (41.2 - 48.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

16 Atk Mega Diancie Diamond Storm vs. 248 HP / 160 Def Clefable: 175-207 (44.5 - 52.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 Atk Sharp Beak Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 151-178 (38.4 - 45.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 SpA Serperior Leaf Storm vs. 248 HP / 96+ SpD Clefable: 132-156 (33.5 - 39.6%) -- 19% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 SpA Mega Alakazam Psyshock vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 144-171 (36.6 - 43.5%) -- 99.4% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

4 SpA Mega Latias Stored Power (380 BP) vs. +6 248 HP / 96 SpD Unaware Clefable: 135-160 (34.3 - 40.7%) -- 55.7% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 Atk Life Orb Terrakion Stone Edge vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 187-220 (47.5 - 55.9%) -- 21.5% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ Atk Mold Breaker Mega Gyarados Waterfall vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 144-171 (36.6 - 43.5%) -- 99.4% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

You're speaking out of your ass, this is just S to A and it's walling 19 fucking pokemon, of which nothing wants to switch in to Clefable, there are no counters to this thing, and though it doesn't have a lot of imitate offensive presence, it certainly does after a quiver dance. And yes, a lot of these pokemon have ways around Clefable, like yeh, Landorus-t can run Choice band/LO, doesn't make Clefable any less of a check to it, and a good defensive check at that.

You're still thinking of clefable as an offensive pokemon, when in reality it's an incredible splashable pokemon which many have seen me use on my stall team to great effect, in a metagame centered around setup it's incredible important

It's set depedent. Your EVs in the calcs exceed the maximum amount, so there's no way for Clefable to wall everything in that wall of calcs. Clefable's still good, of course, but because it cannot be extremely effective with one set , that's why people want to move it down.

 

[thesecondbest]

lol, Clefable isn't supposed to be "beating" things, it's supposed to be supporting things and both of you don't realise that's why it's ranked, should we drop Chansey to unranked because it barely beats anything 1v1?

And looking at the calcs, they are retarded, of course fucking clefable isn't living Gear Grind from Mega Metagross (LOL). Why would it stay in? Metagross also can't switch in, for the record fearing a fire move or t-wave.

Here's some more realistic calcs. These are different clefable sets, made to wall certain pokemon.

252 SpA Life Orb Thundurus Thunderbolt vs. 248 HP / 96+ SpD Clefable: 165-196 (41.9 - 49.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ Atk Life Orb Kyurem Icicle Crash vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 175-207 (44.5 - 52.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 Atk Landorus-T Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 156-184 (39.6 - 46.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ Atk Mega Lopunny Frustration vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 166-196 (42.2 - 49.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ Atk Pixilate Mega Altaria Extreme Speed vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 145-172 (36.8 - 43.7%) -- 99.8% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ SpA Pixilate Mega Altaria Hyper Voice vs. 248 HP / 96+ SpD Clefable: 168-198 (42.7 - 50.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 Atk Garchomp Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 144-171 (36.6 - 43.5%) -- 99.4% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

216 SpA Life Orb Tornadus-T Hurricane vs. 248 HP / 96+ SpD Clefable: 181-214 (46 - 54.4%) -- 6.3% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 Atk Life Orb Weavile Icicle Crash vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 149-177 (37.9 - 45%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ Atk Huge Power Azumarill Play Rough vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 157-186 (39.9 - 47.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 SpA Mega Sceptile Leaf Storm vs. 248 HP / 96+ SpD Clefable: 205-243 (52.1 - 61.8%) -- 97.7% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 Atk Tyranitar Stone Edge vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 147-174 (37.4 - 44.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after sandstorm damage and Leftovers recovery

252+ SpA Mega Slowbro Scald vs. 248 HP / 96+ SpD Clefable: 129-153 (32.8 - 38.9%) -- 5.4% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 SpA Mega Diancie Moonblast vs. 248 HP / 96+ SpD Clefable: 162-192 (41.2 - 48.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

16 Atk Mega Diancie Diamond Storm vs. 248 HP / 160 Def Clefable: 175-207 (44.5 - 52.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 Atk Sharp Beak Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 151-178 (38.4 - 45.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 SpA Serperior Leaf Storm vs. 248 HP / 96+ SpD Clefable: 132-156 (33.5 - 39.6%) -- 19% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 SpA Mega Alakazam Psyshock vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 144-171 (36.6 - 43.5%) -- 99.4% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

4 SpA Mega Latias Stored Power (380 BP) vs. +6 248 HP / 96 SpD Unaware Clefable: 135-160 (34.3 - 40.7%) -- 55.7% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 Atk Life Orb Terrakion Stone Edge vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 187-220 (47.5 - 55.9%) -- 21.5% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ Atk Mold Breaker Mega Gyarados Waterfall vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 144-171 (36.6 - 43.5%) -- 99.4% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

You're speaking out of your ass, this is just S to A and it's walling 19 fucking pokemon, of which nothing wants to switch in to Clefable, there are no counters to this thing, and though it doesn't have a lot of imitate offensive presence, it certainly does after a quiver dance. And yes, a lot of these pokemon have ways around Clefable, like yeh, Landorus-t can run Choice band/LO, doesn't make Clefable any less of a check to it, and a good defensive check at that.

You're still thinking of clefable as an offensive pokemon, when in reality it's an incredible splashable pokemon which many have seen me use on my stall team to great effect, in a metagame centered around setup it's incredible important

Thundurus can sleep you and beat you that way. Torn-T is also a support mon. That Lati calc is hilarious. Mold Breaker goes through unaware so you aren't a counter to gyara. Boomburst altaria beats you. Poison Jab weavile beats you. unaware makes sceptile beat you. Garchomp is a support mon too. Talon with taunt sets up on you. I think you get the point. IF you S rank clef because it CAN beat these things, keep in mind they can tech for clef too. If Clefable isn't even "beating" things, then it isnt a counter to anything at all. Note Mew's calcs vs everything in this list is better. Mew gets reliable recovery, rocks, and it can run heart swap (a personal favorite) so it also doesn't lose to setup mons. And Mew beats thunduurs too because it's ability trolls spore. Try that instead. Maybe the day showdown allows clef 700 EVS and two natures ill try it out, but even then you say it isn't "beating" anything, so while that's the case, no thank you.

 

[Ghoul King]

And Mew beats thunduurs too because it's ability trolls spore.

Nope. Synchronize only reflects Poison/Toxic, Burn, and Paralysis. Sleep and Freeze are exempt.

re: Clefable: I'm still not seeing it. The calcs given don't fit any kind of reality, and Clefable itself is incredibly vulnerable to the widespread Toxic, struggles against Heatran, struggles against myriad Chansey builds, can't actually stop some of the more impressive setup sweepers, and can only stop them on one end or the other anyway: if you can stop Serperior, you can't stop Azumarill. If it's running Unaware and Quiver Dance, it's still sitting on the problematic Moonlight for recovery, with limited PP and susceptibility to weather -and Tyranitar is really good in the meta- and of course switching in on Scalds is a problem for it... it has a lot of flaws.

 

[sin(pi)]

What does Clefable GAIN from this meta? Your sketch options are:
-Quiver Dance (which isn't a massive upgrade over Calm Mind)
-Soft-Boiled (for Unaware variants) - note that you should never sketch a different recovery move because SB helps bluff Magic Guard which deters Toxic, obviously doesn't come up much but it's the optimal recovery move for it
-???
Its expansive movepool isn't really a big factor because literally everything gets that now (it's not like you have more than two slots free).

I don't think Clef gains much at all from this meta, while almost everything else is buffed. It's very solid in OU, but this isn't OU.

 

[Imperator Romanum]

How isn't an expansive movepool a factor? You can only sketch one thing, Clefable now has reliable recovery with unaware, it doesn't need anything.

 

[Mr Spaz]

*completely ignoring Clefable argument*
Because Boomburst Sylveon is overrated:

Sylveon @ Power Herb
Ability: Pixilate
EVs: 104 HP / 252 SpA / 152 Spe
Timid Nature
- Geomancy
- Hyper Voice
- Stored Power/Psyshock
- Hidden Power [Fire]

 

[Josh]

These are different clefable sets, made to wall certain pokemon.

Congrats, you can make a super niche set to wall one specific pokemon. Amazing. Until you realize that just about any mon can be custom built to beat most specific mons, that doesn't make them good. First of all, it doesn't "wall 19 fucking pokemon", wall implies they can't do anything but in reality most of them can beat it. Check 19 fucking pokemon is probably more accurate.


Also,

lol, Clefable isn't supposed to be "beating" things, it's supposed to be supporting things and both of you don't realise that's why it's ranked, should we drop Chansey to unranked because it barely beats anything 1v1?

Actually Chansey does beat nearly all special attackers 1v1, and Chansey isn't S. Nor should it be.

How isn't an expansive movepool a factor? You can only sketch one thing, Clefable now has reliable recovery with unaware, it doesn't need anything.

Something doesn't need to improve in a meta to be top tier, you're right. But when everything else improves and Clefable simply doesn't much, that doesn't work.

If Clefable had 10+ In each of its stat it would get quick banned. Its stats are literally the only thing holding it back.

So would 50% of the high tier mons in OU. What's your point?

And looking at the calcs, they are retarded, of course fucking clefable isn't living Gear Grind from Mega Metagross (LOL). Why would it stay in? Metagross also can't switch in, for the record fearing a fire move or t-wave.

I showed calcs for literally every A+/S-/S+ (still retarded there is S-/S+ imo) because I want an accurate picture of what Clefable actually beats. The thing about Metagross is it offers offensive synergy, whereas clefable offers defensive synergy. Even quoting you:

You're still thinking of clefable as an offensive pokemon, when in reality it's an incredible splashable pokemon which many have seen me use on my stall team to great effect, in a metagame centered around setup it's incredible important

And Metagross can switch into Clefable on a predicted moonblast, soft boiled, protect, etc.

ps; congrats, you used clefable to success. Lots of people peak the ladder with Shedinja in ou, does that mean it should be S? no.

 

[I like donkeys]

Alright, I guess an update is Due.

Mega Alakazam is dropping to A-
Shedinja is dropping to whatever rank is below it
Hawlucha is being ranked in B
Linoone stays unranked (lol)
Mega Venusaur is A-
Porygon-Z is dropping to A
Talonflame moves to A
Cloyster drops to B
Chansey is going to A
Serperior rises to A
Hydreigon drops to B-
Skarmory goes to B+

And with that, a new slate.

Where should Hoopa-C be ranked? LO Shadow ball is bae coming of insane power, is able to Geomancy as it's immune to Extreme speed
Excadrill to A?

Volcarona rise?

Not sure about the rankings right now, nothing glaring stands out. And Clefable isn't dropping.

I agree with the other people in this thread, Clefable should be moved down, maybe to A/A- or something. There are a myriad of powerful attackers in the tier that can 2HKO without any boosts, and those that can't can simply run the appropriate coverage to do so.

Moving on. I have seen Hoopa-C in action and is actually a pretty cool shell smasher. Immunity to extremespeed and great mixed attacking stats set it apart from other shell smashers. C or B rank seems like it.

EDIT: Still waiting for that Ditto raise :^)

 

[Imperator Romanum]

Clefable will drop to A+ next update, drop the issue for now and I'll bring up a potential drop further on, not sure though.

Next slate, all updates will be added on thursday next week

Mega Alakazam back to A, I've seen this a lot recently, dunno if it was the discussion that sparked its usage but I feel like A is justified as fuck, It's so fucking fast and there aren't a lot of scarfers out-pacing it but it's sheer power and speed is what should justify A, as it's a great pokemon when looked further upon. Psystrike hurts so... fucking... bad.

252 SpA Mega Alakazam Psystrike vs. 0 HP / 24 Def Landorus-T: 217-256 (68 - 80.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 SpA Mega Alakazam Psystrike vs. 96 HP / 0 Def Manaphy: 204-241 (55.8 - 66%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 SpA Mega Alakazam Psystrike vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Thundurus: 273-322 (91.3 - 107.6%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO

252 SpA Mega Alakazam Psystrike vs. 96 HP / 0 Def Mega Altaria: 189-223 (60 - 70.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 SpA Mega Alakazam Psystrike vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Diggersby: 253-298 (81.3 - 95.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Real power, god damn.

Ditto raise

I like donkeys make a thing about it or something

Manaphy to A

Bulk, and its quiver dance rest dance set is bae, I've been using to amazing success as it handles priority twave

Mega Vensaur to A-

Rank fucking Hoopa-C people lmao

 

[Dilwar]

Magnezone is in A rank and B+ at the same time, might want to fix that.

 

[Josh]

The thing about mega Alakazam is that while it is an incredibly powerful special attacker, it's just flat out destroyed by priority, and it offers absolutely no defensive synergy whatsoever because of its shit bulk. A- is fine for it. Yes it is fast, yes it is powerful, but it's just too god damn weak and just about any priority or scarfer can KO it. Side note; I'd prefer to sketch tail glow over psystrike, maybe that is just me.

I could see Ditto moving up as high as A-, because of how prominent set up sweepers are and how it can just blanket check most things.

I could live with Mana in A, I've never used it in Sketchmons so I can't say much but I love it in OU. Wouldn't sketching Freeze Dry or Recover(y) instead of Quiver Dance be smart though? It already gets an excellent set up move, tail glow. Either way though, Manaphy being in D rank is a joke.

Mega Venu in A-, no comment. I've never used it in any meta.

Hoopa-C might actually be good in this meta. Unlike Hoopa-Unbound, it doesnt have to worry about Espeed Diggersby shitting on its hopes and dreams ^.^ I could see it in C-.





New Nom: Latias-Mega from A- to A/A+. Here's the set I've been using as an example:

Latias @ Latiasite
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 HP / 168 Def / 88 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Dragon Pulse
- Roost
- Stored Power
- Quiver Dance

Lmao this thing shits on everyone's dreams. It is the single thing that allowed me to beat The Immortal (who had me down 4-1), Chopin Alkaninoff and several other very good sketchmons players. It's a complete monster. It can set up on nearly all top threats, and then overwhelm them. Hell, it sets up on Excadrill. It being in A- with things like Ferrothorn and Mega Medicham being the same rank is a joke. Not only can Mega Latias set up on just about anything, it even overwhelms chansey (and Ditto). It OHKO's outright after enough QDs, and can stall it out if it transforms due to taking less than 50% from Dragon Pulse.

 

[IanTheCat]

I have no idea why, but no one that I've seen has put quiver dance on gardovoir's moveset.
Gardevoir@Leftovers
Ability: Synchronize
EVs: 252 Spa/4 Spd/252 Spe
Modest Nature
-Quiver Dance
-Psychic
-Moonblast
-Destiny Bond
Quiver dance is a great upgrade from calm mind, but since you're limited on sketch moves, you might have to use some strategy with this one. Overall, though, this is a great moveset.

OR you could use
-Psystrike
-Calm Mind
-Moonblast
-Focus Blast
Psystrike will allow you to deal more damage, while you have focus blast as a backup and calm mind to boost your stats. Useful for taking down pokemon of almost any type.
Those are my suggestions

 

[nyan kat]

Mega Alakazam back to A, I've seen this a lot recently, dunno if it was the discussion that sparked its usage but I feel like A is justified as fuck, It's so fucking fast and there aren't a lot of scarfers out-pacing it but it's sheer power and speed is what should justify A, as it's a great pokemon when looked further upon. Psystrike hurts so... fucking... bad.

252 SpA Mega Alakazam Psystrike vs. 0 HP / 24 Def Landorus-T: 217-256 (68 - 80.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 SpA Mega Alakazam Psystrike vs. 96 HP / 0 Def Manaphy: 204-241 (55.8 - 66%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 SpA Mega Alakazam Psystrike vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Thundurus: 273-322 (91.3 - 107.6%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO

252 SpA Mega Alakazam Psystrike vs. 96 HP / 0 Def Mega Altaria: 189-223 (60 - 70.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 SpA Mega Alakazam Psystrike vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Diggersby: 253-298 (81.3 - 95.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 SpA Life Orb Alakazam Psystrike vs. 0 HP / 24 Def Landorus-T: 231-274 (72.4 - 85.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 SpA Life Orb Alakazam Psystrike vs. 96 HP / 0 Def Manaphy: 220-259 (60.2 - 70.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 SpA Life Orb Alakazam Psystrike vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Thundurus: 292-344 (97.6 - 115%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO

Normal Alakazam with Life Orb is a bit stronger than Mega Alakazam though. It also has a better ability that allows it to freely switch in on status and not take damage from entry hazards. Not to mention using Mega Alakazam takes up your team's mega slot. Mega Alakazam gets 30 more base speed, but I don't see it outspeeding anything significant that normal Alakazam doesn't, except maybe Tornadus-T; both are still outsped by things like Scarf Keldeo. The extra bulk is also pretty insignificant against strong physical attackers. It definitely has a niche though, maybe for revenging Sand Rush Excadrill with Trace?

 

[IanTheCat]

I was just thinking...Cobalion seems fun to play around with. It's EVs are high, and it would benefit a lot from sketched moves.
I'm not completely sure, and I'll keep testing, but I think that coil and close combat are a good duet. Close Combat is very useful and strong, and coil is just an upgrade for bulk up. However, if you feel like it's wasting your sketch move, try using waterfall, scald, hydro pump, or other water type moves to help with those annoying fire types!

 

[sid_saurav]

I need some counters for "Taunt Spore Thundurus".
Someone please help me out

 

[Akumeoy]

I need some counters for "Taunt Spore Thundurus".
Someone please help me out

Safety Goggles + one of Thundurus's normal counters (Clefable, Lati@s, Kyurem-B, Mamoswine, etc.). Ferrothorn (watch out for Focus Blast), Mega Venusaur / Tangrowth / Celebi (scout for Oblivion Wing first).

If you just need to check it, then your Safety Goggles options expand drastically, and Magic Coat becomes an option as well.