Suicune [QC 3/3] [GP 2/2]

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Pastelle

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[OVERVIEW]
With its outstanding defensive typing and stats, Suicune is one of the best bulky Tailwind setters in the metagame, and its access to other moves such as Snarl further makes it a great utility Pokemon. Suicune is a great defensive backbone on most teams thanks to its ability to switch in on almost any neutral attack. However, it is weak to one of the most common offensive types, Electric, and its base 90 Special Attack makes it damage output quite underwhelming.

[SET]
name: Bulky Tailwind
move 1: Tailwind
move 2: Hydro Pump / Scald
move 3: Ice Beam
move 4: Snarl / Protect
item: Sitrus Berry
ability: Pressure
nature: Bold
evs: 252 HP / 100 Def / 112 SpA / 24 SpD / 20 Spe

[SET COMMENTS]
Moves
========
Tailwind doubles the Speed of Suicune and its allies for four turns and serves as a good utility move to allow slower Pokemon to become fast offensive threats. Hydro Pump is used to allow Suicune to provide serviceable offensive pressure, having a high chance to OHKO Mega Diancie always 2HKOing Heatran, though it should only be used if Suicune's team is heavily reliant on it to check both Mega Diancie and Heatran. Scald is used as both a STAB attack to soild deal damage and a utility move to possibly burn physical attackers; it also has perfect accuracy, unlike Hydro Pump. Ice Beam provides nice coverage against Dragon- and Flying-types such as Hydreigon and Landorus-T. Snarl provides utility and allows Suicune to support its team by weakening opposing special attackers. Snarl is also great for catching Rotom-W and Thundurus on the switch-in and helping to reduce the opposing team's amount of offensive pressure on Suicune specifically. Snarl, however, should not be used on teams with a notable weakness to Bisharp. Alternatively, Protect keeps Suicune safe for a turn while it waits to reset Tailwind or its partner takes care of a threat.

Set Details
========
Sitrus Berry provides immediate recovery, improving Suicune's longevity. Leftovers can be used over Sitrus Berry for more gradual HP recovery, but Sitrus Berry is generally a better fit. The Defense EV's with a Bold nature and Sitrus Berry allow Suicune to avoid the 2HKO from Adamant Mega Kangaskhan's Return. The Speed EVs allow it to outspeed Adamant Choice Scarf Landorus-T when Tailwind is up. The given Special Attack investment allows Suicune to always OHKO Landorus-T with Ice Beam. The rest of the EVs are put into Special Defense to bolster Suicune's bulk overall.

Usage Tips
========
Suicune typically works best early- and mid-game, using Tailwind to either gain or restore momentum. Thanks to its bulk, Suicune is a fantastic switch-in to most neutral attacks, so it has use staying in the back and switching in for a frailer teammate. With Snarl, it's able to severely hinder any powerful special attacker, such as Kyurem-B, and even boosting ones, such as Calm Mind Cresselia. Use Snarl sparingly when the opposing team has Bisharp, as the move activates Defiant, giving Bisharp a +2 Attack boost and allowing it to apply heavy offensive pressure to your team. There are many Pokemon in Doubles OU that don't have a good matchup against Suicune, most notably Steel- and Water-types. Because of this, Suicune can be a great wincon late-game, soaking up hits, possibly burning threats with Scald, and slowing wearing down a foe.

Team Options
========
Suicune works fantastic in bulky Fire / Water / Grass cores with Pokemon like Heatran and Mega Venusaur. These types of Pokemon work very well together by having fantastic defensive synergy and typing coverage, providing an extremely solid defensive backbone that can be hard to break. Fake Out users such as Mega Kangaskhan can help Suicune set up Tailwind successfully. Amoonguss is a particularly good partner for Suicune, as it can redirect Electric-type attacks while Suicune sets up Tailwind or takes care of opposing Fire- and Flying-types. As Suicune is mainly used for Tailwind, it works well with Pokemon that benefit from it, such as Breloom and Mega Kangaskhan. Pokemon that can deal with opposing Grass- and Electric-type attacks such as Kyurem-B and Landorus-T also make for good partners.

[STRATEGY COMMENTS]
Other Options
=============
Suicune can also run a more offensive set with an EV spread of 28 HP / 252 SpA / 228 Spe. This spread will outspeed Jolly Breloom and deal as much damage as possible, with some investment in HP as well to grant it some staying power. This set functions well with Sitrus Berry, Life Orb, or other items that boost Water-type attacks. However, this set isn't as effective because Suicune simply doesn't have the offensive stats to be threatening. More times than not, you're better off using a more powerful Water-type such as Keldeo. Suicune also has access to Calm Mind and Substitute, giving it the possibility of being a powerful setup sweeper; however, setting up is typically too time consuming, and it would also be better to use a stronger offensive Water-type. Icy Wind can be run for additional speed control, but there usually isn't room for it. Roar is another option to remove setup sweepers such as Mega Kangaskhan as well as Trick Room setters, but it's very situational. Wacan Berry or Rindo Berry can be used to reduce damage from an Electric- or Grass-type attack.

Checks and Counters
===================

**Typing Advantage**: Bulky Electric-types such as Rotom-W and Zapdos are good checks against Suicune. Zapdos and other Electric / Flying type Pokemon such as Thundurus should be cautious of Ice Beam, however. Grass-types such as Breloom, Venusaur, and Amoonguss also give Suicune a great deal of trouble, but they should also be cautious of Ice Beam.

**Utility**: Taunt users such as Sableye and Thundurus prevent Suicune from setting up Tailwind, which is typically Suicune's main purpose. Fake Out users such as Mega Kangaskhan and Scrafty also prevent Suicune from setting up Tailwind while the opposing team sets up its own field effects. Pokemon with Defiant or Comeptitive such as Bisharp and Milotic can switch in on Snarl and sweep with their boost.

**Opposing Weather**: Mega Charizard Y drastically lessen Suicune's impact on the game. Mega Charizard Y can easily switch in on Suicune and diminish its already mediocre offensive presence further due to sun halving the damage of Water-type moves, and it can then proceed to 2HKO it with Solar Beam.
 
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Bughouse

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The reason this is getting a revamp is Skymin's ban. QC team thinks its sets maybe could use a bit of shaking up.
 

shaian

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remove fighting-types from things which dont have a great matchup vs cube becuase thats not true, bar like infernape and terrakion. conk, virizion, keldo, scrafty, and hariyama all work fine againt cune.
 

xzern

for sure
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surf's up

Moves
  • i think that scald should be slashed before hydro pump. like you said, suicune is lacking in offensive poweress and you arent ohking anything important with hpump anyway. suicune fits more of a support role and its attacking moves should probably reflect that. however, hydro pump is cool for being able to ohko diancie
  • snarl is also great for catching the thundurus switchin and helping to reduce the opponent's amount of offensive pressure, sometimes letting you make more optimal plays
  • if that isn't nice access, i don't know what is
  • snarl should not be used, however, on teams that have a notable weakness to bisharp
Usage Tips
  • when using snarl, use it scarcely when the opposing team has bisharp (or milotic?) because a +2 sucker punch will ruin any tailwind-oriented team's day
Other Options
  • i would remove av. the main appeal of suicune is tailwind in the first place so theres no reason to shoot yourself in the foot like that
  • add safety goggles. avoiding sleep can be really important for a support mon. although your spread doesnt outspeed breloom, some brelooms may choose to spore you instead of dealing big dmg with bullet seed in order to turn the match in their favor by making a 2v1 situation
Checks & Counters
  • amoonguss and serperior should also be mentioned when you talk about grass types
  • "utility moves" can be just "utility"

tag me once you implement these
 
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shaian

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you could also add a **Speed Control** tag in which you say how trick room teams have a pretty good matchup against suicune. suicune's usefulness diminishes significantly when it cant outspeed/overpower any threats in trick room and when trick room overrides tailwind
1. Even outside of Trick Room Suicune is rarely outrunning and overpowering any threats, if you wanna mention that shit like slow-Trans, Rhyperiors, and Camerupts now out speed 'Cune, then by all means do so, but those aren't threatening it out anytime soon, if anything, Suicune still forces them out even under Trick room

2. If you're dumb enough to use Tailwind against a team that uses Trick Room, then you probably deserve to lose. The only /possible/ instance where this could even be an issue is against semi-Trick Room, but those teams telegraph when they're going to setup Trick Room so if you still decide to go ahead and setup Tailwind, you deserve to be kicked in the nuts. Basically what I'm saying is that under Usage Tips write that you should be conscious of when to use Tailwind, aka, if you're already faster than the opposing team DON'T FUCKING CLICK TAILWIND

3. If anything this should read more like "the kind of Tailwind oriented teams that Suicune works well with tend to struggle against Trick Room", as well as other forms of Speed Control such as opposing Tailwind users who can balance out any advantage Tailwind might provide, and Thunder Wave for obvious reasons. Suicune itself typically doesn't give a shit whether the opposing 'mons are faster or slower than it, it exists to 1) set up Tailwind if its team stands to benefit from it, and 2) spam Hydro Pump / Scald, Icy Wind, or Snarl as needed
 

Pastelle

we're all star stuff
surf's up

Moves
  • i think that scald should be slashed before hydro pump. like you said, suicune is lacking in offensive poweress and you arent ohking anything important with hpump anyway. suicune fits more of a support role and its attacking moves should probably reflect that. however, hydro pump is cool for being able to ohko diancie
  • snarl is also great for catching the thundurus switchin and helping to reduce the opponent's amount of offensive pressure, sometimes letting you make more optimal plays
  • if that isn't nice access, i don't know what is
  • snarl should not be used, however, on teams that have a notable weakness to bisharp
Usage Tips
  • when using snarl, use it scarcely when the opposing team has bisharp (or milotic?) because a +2 sucker punch will ruin any tailwind-oriented team's day
Other Options
  • i would remove av. the main appeal of suicune is tailwind in the first place so theres no reason to shoot yourself in the foot like that
  • add safety goggles. avoiding sleep can be really important for a support mon. although your spread doesnt outspeed breloom, some brelooms may choose to spore you instead of dealing big dmg with bullet seed in order to turn the match in their favor by making a 2v1 situation
Checks & Counters
  • amoonguss and serperior should also be mentioned when you talk about grass types
  • "utility moves" can be just "utility"

tag me once you implement these
They're implemented xzern
 

xzern

for sure
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in team options, u could also say that mega kang is a great option cuz it can use fake out to let suicune set up wind easier and kang functions very well in tailwind too

also note that i haphazardly edited my check; make sure to mention that hydro pump is a good option for being able to ohko mega diancie

1/3
 

Pastelle

we're all star stuff
in team options, u could also say that mega kang is a great option cuz it can use fake out to let suicune set up wind easier and kang functions very well in tailwind too

also note that i haphazardly edited my check; make sure to mention that hydro pump is a good option for being able to ohko mega diancie

1/3
Done, tyty
 

Idyll

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Overview
  • It's not a "defensive" Tailwind setter, it's a "bulky" Tailwind setter.
  • It's not exactly walled by any Steel-type not named Ferrothorn so I'd not mention them.
Moves
  • instead of saying "Tailwind is the main reason to use Cune (already said in OView)" just say what TWind does, which is provide or boost Speed to itself and its allies.
  • mention that Hydro Pump can also miss !_!
  • mention specific targets of Ice Beam
  • "Snarl can be used instead for more utility and to better support its team" how? by weakening Special Attackers !_!
  • might as well mention Rotom-W along with Thundurus. also you imply here that with Snarl you can sometimes do more optimal plays, when really it just provides you with more options since less pressure on Cune. there's a difference.
  • you're not writing about the pressure (ability) part here, ok?
Set Details
  • Suicune provides burst recovery, improving overall bulk
  • it's spelled Sitrus
  • "The defense EV's survive an Adamant Mega Kangaskhan at +2 after Sitris Berry recovery" & "Bold nature makes Suicune more physically bulky" should be collapsed into one bullet, preferable one sentence too if you can.
Usage Tips
  • "...because a +2 Sucker Punch can be devastating against any Tailwind-orientated team" Tailwind is not an archetype :( Just say that Bisharp can take advantage of Snarl with Defiant, getting the +2 Attack boost and applying heavy pressure to your side.
  • Mention Mega Kanga as a pokemon that likes to take advantage of TWind because you-know-why
Checks and Counters
  • Mons with Defiant or Competitive can take advantage of Snarl :(!
2/3
 

shaian

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[SET]
name: Offensive Tailwind
move 1: Tailwind
move 2: Hydro Pump / Scald
move 3: Ice Beam
move 4: Protect
item: Sitrus Berry
ability: Pressure
nature: Modest
evs: 28 HP / 252 SpA / 228 Spe

[SET COMMENTS]
Moves
========
- Hydro Pump -> hit everything for decent damage, miss chance is dick
- Scald -> 100% accuracy, burns, weaker tho
- Tailwind -> gotta go speed
- Protect -> protect
- possibly Snarl (idfk)

Set Details
========
- Max Spa -> max damage
- Spe -> loom
- HP -> dump
- Sitrus -> heal
- Modest -> spa
- possible: lo / water specific boosting item? / lefties?
- probably could just go max / max idk why you wouldn't if you're already at 228 spe (does 28 hp actually do anything useful?)

Usage Tips
========
- Set tailwind
- hit things with appropriate move
- dont set tailwind when you dont need to

Team Options
========
- same as the other set tbh

tagging Bughouse since he wants this on here, and id prefer we deal with this before the write up starts
other qc: Memoric kamikaze17 SpaceBass xzern Arcticblast
 

Pastelle

we're all star stuff
I implemented Memoric's check and will add the other set tonight.

Also I'm using mem's set in the bulky tailwind set, which could be running more defensives to make it more tanky, but instead it has a bit of special attack. Should this set be changed to be a straight up wall since we're including a more offensive set?
 

shaian

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Suicune @ Sitrus Berry
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 252 HP / 100 Def / 104 SpA / 32 SpD / 20 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Scald
- Snarl
- Tailwind
- Ice Beam

This is the first set, with Hydro Pump slashed behind Scald
 

Arcticblast

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I don't think offensive Suicune is anywhere near good enough to warrant a spot on the analysis; maybe a favorable mention in OO but nothing else. Suicune's niche is as the sturdiest Tailwind setter around (and, though less relevant, the most relevant mon that should be using Scald since Scald Keldeo is ass), and offensive Suicune kind of doesn't do that so well. It doesn't do any better against things it doesn't already beat. Not worth it imo
 

Idyll

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Echoing Ablast. Offensive Cune just isn't worth it often times, bulky cune still beats the same range of things, and it detracts from Cune's niche of bulky TWind.
 

shaian

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I also disagree with including the offensive set, and i know kamikaze, spacebass, and stratos all agree. i just wanted to clarify whether or not it was going to be included. Since there is a clear majority, pastelgameboy just use this set as the only one for now:

Suicune @ Sitrus Berry
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 252 HP / 100 Def / 104 SpA / 32 SpD / 20 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Scald
- Snarl
- Tailwind
- Ice Beam

and get this written up. The relevant benchmarks (taken from the qc discussion)
This is a spread Kamikaze made, always lives 2 Kangaskhan Returns, outruns Adamant Lando-T under Tailwind, always OHKO's 4 HP Lando-T with Ice Beam, with the rest dumped in to SpD. I used a similar build with 112 SpA and 24 SpD (which is enough to always take 2 Rotom-W Thunderbolts, which is incidentally almost useless as a benchmark), so I can vouch for it.
Slash Hydro Pump behind Scald, and Protect behind Snarl, and make the adjustments throughout as necessary.
 

shaian

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imo safety goggles isn't worth putting in OO. only reason you should even /consider/ goggles suicune is if you have absolutely zero sleep absorbers and are that desperate. but even that isn't a justified reason because suicune isn't a 'mon that can really take advantage of a sleep immunity to the same degree that most goggles users do, since it can't redirect powder moves nor does it produce a lot of offensive pressure that can force out amoongs and looms once they find out they can't really do what they need to do and are susceptible to being ko'd.
 

Bughouse

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Yeah I use Goggles everything but I'd never use Goggles Suicune.

I think the most substantive change I'd want to see is Hydro Pump slashed in front of Scald. This is because of
104 SpA Suicune Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Diancie: 224-266 (92.9 - 110.3%) - against Hasty. Or if it's Naive, it is a guaranteed OHKO. I think that is absolutely deserving of the primary slash. shaian SpaceBass kamikaze17

I'm also unsure what the 32 SpD EVs are actually useful for.
252+ SpA Life Orb Hydreigon Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Suicune: 263-309 (65 - 76.4%)
-2 252+ SpA Life Orb Hydreigon Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Suicune: 133-156 (32.9 - 38.6%)
add those up and it does 112% max, not nearly enough to KO through Sitrus
Meanwhile,
252 SpA Life Orb Thundurus Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Suicune: 330-393 (81.6 - 97.2%)

I'd rather see that 32 get dumped elsewhere, I think. SpA makes the most sense to raise the OHKO chance on Diancie, imo.
 

Idyll

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mfw didn't get tagged :(

As much as I like to use Hydro for power, Scald just has more utility and general usefulness. Plus, Suicune with Scald still beats MDiancie regardless. Hydro Pump just isn't as generally useful as Scald in a bulky set like Suicune's, which appreciates the burn chances.
 

Pastelle

we're all star stuff
I think I have to agree with Memoric on this one. Like I mentioned in Usage Tips, Suicune can be a great win-con by soaking up hits, burning with Scald, and stalling out if its needed. Again, you're not really using Suicune as a heavy damage dealer, its more of a utility mon, and wouldn't it make sense to give the utility mon a bit more utility with a chance to burn? It's not like Keldeo, where it needs to deal as much damage as possible before it dies. Hydro Pump is by no means a bad option, which is why its mentioned in the main set, but especially if I move the 32 SpD EVs to SpA to OHKO Diancie, I think the higher reliability of Scald makes more sense.
 

kamikaze

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bigger fan of scald at least on suicune as im not usually focused on picking up OHKO's with my suicune and every turn I am able to get off an attack for proper chip damage for my partners is important. So missing usually isnt an option.

As for the spdef investment it minimizes the chance of rotom-w tbolt getting a 2HKO, so it isnt completely useless. (I am just using the dex rotom-w as an example. I know everyone generally has their own rotom-w spreads)

116+ SpA Rotom-W Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 32 SpD Suicune: 216-254 (53.4 - 62.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

By screwing around with the numbers on the calc as well I figured it was a 1.2%-1.6% to get the 2HKO, using the dex rotom-w thanks to recovery from sitrus.
 

shaian

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[22:36:42] shaian: 116+ SpA Rotom-W Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 24 SpD Suicune: 216-254 (53.4 - 62.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
[22:36:43] shaian: 116+ SpA Rotom-W Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 32 SpD Suicune: 216-254 (53.4 - 62.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

already mentioned on ps, but just posting here to make it /official/
 
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