Sounds about what Wugtrio can afford for coverage, but Triple Dive being a multi-hit move does have some utility against Focus Sash users
-
Welcome to Smogon! Take a moment to read the Introduction to Smogon for a run-down on everything Smogon, and make sure you take some time to read the global rules.
-
Congrats to the winners of the 2023 Smog Awards!
Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v4 [Volcarona Banned]
- Thread starter TPP
- Start date
See this is facts, however, why even use wugtrio if you're not gonna use his signature move ?
Also this kills lead glimmora in one hit and then u absorb tspikes with overqwil. Furthermore breaking sashes and subs is kinda nice sometimes, like against iron moth for example.
Last edited:
The OU Discussion Thread rn
Btw Delibird Heart, have you considered Foul Play as an option to 2HKO Wogre on the switch?
252 Atk Choice Band Wugtrio Foul Play vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Ogerpon-Wellspring: 170-200 (56.4 - 66.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Btw Delibird Heart, have you considered Foul Play as an option to 2HKO Wogre on the switch?
252 Atk Choice Band Wugtrio Foul Play vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Ogerpon-Wellspring: 170-200 (56.4 - 66.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
That might not be a bad niche to have. Also Overwqil feels very underappreciated as a non-Water type Swift Swimmer
Bulky Pivoting with Intimidate and a Defensive typing that lets it run Rocky Helmet or items besides HDB (no Spikes and Neutral to SR) gives it versatility in defensive roles, and U-Turn + Intimidate Pivoting still does work in a Physical Heavy Meta like this. While not massive, its Special Attack is also enough to run Special moves for hitting certain targets like Earth Power to break Bulky Fires without Burn issues or Grass Knot for opposing Tusk/Dondozo, and 145 Base ATK is still useable even uninvested
It doesn't do its old Defog and Offensive jobs too well compared to Tusk but it does have roles that are hard to replicate for other Grounds in the tier
Yo this is actually a fire tech... Thanks for the idea, might use this, but sucker punch does prove useful sometimes so idk. Really nicely thought tho
The wugtrio post actually makes me want to use dugtrio in OU, with sand force on a sand team mind you.
Though on my alt account, I'm not going to let my elo tank that much.
Though on my alt account, I'm not going to let my elo tank that much.
Dugtrio has more potential with it's access to Swords Dance and High Horsepower (although I don't know how it can afford to set up a SD to begin with)
Ehh, I'm thinking more along the lines of banded sand force, though sadly it doesn't get high horsepower, and stomping tantrum is too weak.
252 Atk Choice Band Sand Force Dugtrio Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Great Tusk: 210-247 (56.6 - 66.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Though this calc is impressive.
Pretty impressive, though coverage might be needed for Rillaboom and Grassy Terrain
Right now I've got a set of e-quake, sucker punch, stone edge and endevor. Stone edge is also boosted by sand force, so it hits pretty damn hard.
252 Atk Choice Band Sand Force Dugtrio Stone Edge vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Ogerpon-Wellspring: 204-241 (67.7 - 80%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after sandstorm damage
252 Atk Choice Band Sand Force Dugtrio Stone Edge vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Rillaboom: 192-227 (56.3 - 66.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after sandstorm damage and Grassy Terrain recovery
With careful play, dugtrio could do well (though I would probably not reccomend it, it's in ZU for a reason).
Atleast it's not like Meganium who, even with the potential from the additions to it's movepool, still suck
Nah. Sun is for sure better than rain right now for three reasons:
1) Although Rain is historically easier to build and far more brainless it has more bad matchups vs common threats. Rain is flat out bad vs. Kingambit, Dragonite, Walking Wake, Ogerpon-W, and Rillaboom. Nasty list.
2) Sun has better abusers, and Protosynthesis boosts those abusers every turn. As if Raging Bolt, Walking Wake, Gouging Fire, and Roaring Moon needed permanent Booster Energy…?
3) Great Tusk - arguably the best / most useful mon in the tier is better on Sun vs Rain, and he gets permanent Proto boost. Tusk is that fucking good.
Rain is unserious right now. And I’m a rain player. Other than the temporary blip that was Archaludon, rain has only ever been a serious archetype when Ferrothorn was around to carry it.
Morkal did use it.
Oh, also the least used fully evolved mons are from least used to most used (though they still aren't used much): Calyrex (by like 80 mons to the next least used mon, it was the 602 most used mon), Oricorio-Pa'u and Noctowl.Morkal OU SunSo we've been talking a lot about Rain lately, but what about Sun? I want to quickly share some of the unique/strong picks that I've been working with on various OU Sun teams. Some of these mons are meta staples while others are Pokemon that I feel should be looked at more due to their nice qualities. I'm going to start with my favorite sun mon as of right now -
Meganium @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Leaf Guard
Tera Type: Fairy
EVs: 248 HP / 168 Def / 84 SpD / 8 Spe
Impish Nature
- Body Press
- Encore
- Knock Off
- Synthesis
Meganium has been one of my favorite discoveries on Sun teams thanks to its great bulk, the newfound ability to terastallize, a surprisingly good base 80 speed for a bulky mon, a great ability for Sun, reliable recovery, and a stupendous movepool. Leaf Guard protects it against status while Synthesis is phenomenal in the sun - allowing it to shrug off attacks and attempts at status that other Pokemon can't begin to deal with. Meganium provides excellent utility and even some offensive pressure thanks to access to the combination of Body Press + Knock Off along with Encore to royally mess over slower setup mons such as Raging Bolt and Kingambit. Meganium is another Gen 2 mon that finally has a chance to shine thanks to its access to a plethora of unique and synergistic tools that other Pokemon could only dream of. I'll likely be posting the full Sun team I'm using Meganium on in RMT at some point soon (along with writing a full Meganium essay), so keep a lookout for that and also check in there as well for a plethora of other wonderfully constructed teams!
Necrozma @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Prism Armor
Tera Type: Fire
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Def / 252 SpA
Modest Nature
- Calm Mind
- Heat Wave
- Photon Geyser
- Morning Sun
Beats Calm Mind Agility Stored Power Iron Crown one-on-one, cooks Kingambit under Sun while comfortably surviving Supreme Overlord 5 Allies Fainted Sucker Punch on Bulky variants both pre and post-tera. Boost with Calm Mind, fantastic recovery (especially under Sun) with Morning Sun, solid natural bulk combined with an incredible ability in Prism Armor, and more. Necrozma is pretty underexplored as its movepool is a bit mind-boggling with how many different roles it can take on. Solid bulky offensive mon that pairs well with numerous other threats under Sun (especially staples like Great Tusk).
Gouging Fire @ Choice Band
Ability: Protosynthesis
Tera Type: Fire
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Flare Blitz
- Earthquake
- Outrage
- Psychic Fangs
I discovered somewhat early on that I'm not the biggest fan of Gouging Fire requiring setup, so I decided to instead run either bulk (Morning Sun with Burning Bulwark) or outright power. So I discovered Choice Band Gouging Fire under Sun and let me tell you, it's one of my new favorite sun threats. STAB Flare Blitz boosted by Sun, Choice Band, and Protosynthesis will cook almost anything. Outrage is also great with the lack of consistent Fairy-types around (Clefable does not want to switch into Flare Blitz), and Earthquake is phenomenal coverage. My preferred niche tech on this set is Psychic Fangs for two specific reasons - breaking screens and hitting Pokemon like Great Tusk, Toxapex, Pecharunt, and Zamazenta super effectively (especially if Sun is not up).
Houndoom @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Flash Fire
Tera Type: Fairy
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Overheat/Fire Blast
- Dark Pulse
- Tera Blast
- Destiny Bond
Houndoom has a very unique spot in the metagame thanks to four traits that no other Pokemon have; it's the only (legal) Dark/Fire-type Special Attacker allowed in OU, it has acceptable special bulk with an acceptable speed tier (75/80 special bulk with 95 speed), has Flash Fire to give it additional switch-in opportunities while powering up its Fire STAB, and with Tera it can patch up its specific coverage issues and muscle through some annoying threats while gaining a useful Dragon-immunity. The last option on this set is what makes Houndoom such an effective cleaner and also an effective sacrificial mon - Destiny Bond. With Timid + Choice Scarf, Houndoom reaches 475 Speed - this outspeeds +1 Jolly Gouging Fire and ties with +1 Jolly DD Kyurem along with outpacing many other threats like Scarf Modest Enamorus, Scarf Gholdengo (also resists both of Dhengo's STABS). If Houndoom is down for the count and you need a last-ditch effort to take down a +1 sweeper, Houndoom can outpace a huge number of threats, use Destiny Bond, and take down an opposing threat with it. Houndoom's fire STAB is nuclear under the Sun and having Dark STAB isn't bad either and allows Houndoom to threaten Pokemon like Dragapult, Pecharunt, Skeledirge, and Glowking. Houndoom's niche comes from its powerful STABS, speed control with Scarf, access to Tera, and effective revenge killing both from its attacking power + ability to take any mon down provided it can outspeed it.
I can now see why nobody would use them, even me, a shit mon connoisseur, wouldn't use these in a million years.
Last edited:
1) Dragonite is actually not that good vs rain and can be dealt with with gambit (which u definitely need to play on rain rn imo) or literally just any of ur mons except barra. Wake ogerpon-W and rillaboom are bigger threats to rain but can be played around with corect prediction (clicking cc on barra) or just with overqwil with correct positioning. i'd argue the one mon that gives rain most trouble rn is raging bolt actually. (also rain doesn't really feel brainless to play now, because u have to outplay all the mons u mentioned lol)
2) arguable. i don't personally feel like there is such a big difference in overall efficiency of rain and sun abusers. barra is extremely threatening to any team without ogerpon-W or dondozo (and that can be dealt with with your teammates) since the meta is extremely offensive rn and is often one or two instances of chip away from getting liquidated x5. also the problem of sun is that u give booster defense to opposing tusks etc etc and torkoal is wayyyy worse than peli in terms of general usefulness (mostly by virtue of not having a pivoting move, which forces most sun builds to run an eject button user to not lose momentum).
3) tusk is not the best mon in the tier, he's the most used, because gambit is ubiquitous and tusk checks it very well while also being able to provide hazards or removal. it's just a very good role compressor. in fact tusk is not even necessarily better on sun than it is on any other team, so i'd say that's kind of a moot point. rain doesn't need tusk because they have other ways to deal with gambit (your own gambit, jet from barra to outplay sucker, etc) and other ways to place and remove hazards (iron treads the goat)
Glad it’s working for you. I started the gen with rain and now won’t touch it with a ten foot pole. It’s no where near as consistent as previous gens.
Great Tusk + Proto Dragons > Barraskewda + Iron Treads
Regarding Peli vs. Torkoal I’ve even called that into question this Gen, mostly due to Tera picking who you need to check for the team. Torkoal at least has the stats to do that.
Clicking CC on Barra isn’t even a good mid ground in most games and it doesn’t OHKO. Barra doesn’t make progress vs. Ogerpon-W + any defensive backbone which is kind of my overall point. You can use rain, but it has many poor matchups. Sun God Walking Wake hits everything with Hydro / Fire Move / Draco with no thinking cap needed.
Eh. If a team loses 5-0 to Barra clicking Liquidation it is poorly built and poor use of Tera. Barra is also one SR chip himself from getting sniped from a sucker punch. Not to mention Grassy Glide & Thunderclap.
I said it’s arguably the best / most useful in the tier. Great Tusk simply makes most teams better and the fact that it’s boosted by Sun in whichever way you choose is a big deal. Overall point was that:
Great Tusk + Proto Dragons > Barraskewda + Iron Treads
Regarding Peli vs. Torkoal I’ve even called that into question this Gen, mostly due to Tera picking who you need to check for the team. Torkoal at least has the stats to do that.
Well that post did showcase some hope for Meganium. And now that I think of it, maybe it could help with the Waterpon situation, depending of how often Waterpon runs U-Turn that is
252+ Atk Choice Band Barraskewda Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Ogerpon-Wellspring: 239-282 (79.4 - 93.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Ehh, I mean, waterpon has to predict the water move, and if you are barra, you are either going to be spamming flip turn, or spamming cc. Once waterpon is out of the way, which is the main thing that stops barra from sweeping a lot of teams, you will be spamming flip turn. Wake is definetely a horrible matchup, I will agree with that.
While it does lose to gambit (though aqua jet does help in this regard), grassy glide and thunderclap, barra can still use flip turn on the predicted switch and go into an electric type or a steel type. Thunder is a great move for rain teams, as you may know, but the 30% para chance really cripples a lot of mons.
I do agree with the tusk thing though, it absolutely is the best mon, it fits so much utility and has great offenses. Of course, tusk can work on rain teams, I have tried it and its decent, but then it comes down to the sun team's ability to deal with opposing tusk. Most of the time, they can, so I think the point is in the sun teams favour for that.
Peli is 100% better than torkoal. Peli has roost to keep itself alive longer, u-turn to pivot in teammates, knock off to remove items, a MUCH better defensive typing (seriously, water+flying is amazing, sure it has a 4x weakness to electric, but everything else is better) and the ability to hit decently hard.
0 SpA Pelipper Surf vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Roaring Moon in Rain: 69-81 (19.6 - 23%) -- possible 5HKO
0 SpA Torkoal Lava Plume vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Roaring Moon in Sun: 55-66 (15.6 - 18.8%) -- possible 6HKO
Pelipper hits much harder than it should, plus with dual stab it can hit more things for neutral damage. The only things torkoal has going for it are better physcial bulk (which is irrelevant due to pelipper's roost), will-o-wisp, stealth rocks and rapid spin. Those are good tools, but it can't fit all of them onto it's moveset alongside attacking moves. This makes it passive, which allows big threats to come in easily. Pelipper meanwhile, can fit two attacking moves, and a combo of u-turn, knock off and roost.
TLDR, peli is better than torkoal.
Rain and sun are too fishy in general, you've got too many outs vs them via Tera, strong speed control options like Deo-S, Dragapult, Booster Valiant, etc. and whatever benefits Pelipper and Torkoal do bring don't outway the cons of using a generally useless mon. I feel Sand doesn't have this issue to the same extent since both Hippo / Tar pack more utility in the metagame than either Torkoal or Pelipper, which are both Rocks weak, locked to a bad item, and more limited in what they can reasonably deal with. Sun is espicially fishy since you are buffing the opponent's paradox mons like Raging Bolt and Gouging Fire, making them significantly more difficult to deal with. An issue I personally have is that these styles don't really have room for good pivots. Really the best you are getting is something like Eject button Hat or Eject button Treads, which are solid but 1 time use and not enough. I felt similar when trying E-Terrain this gens - the cons of running a mostly useless mon like Pincurchin doesn't outweigh whatever benefits that Iron Valiant or Iron Leaves are getting from the terrain. Giving your opponent free turns is really bad this gen & I find that Pelipper / Torkoal / Pincurchin play in such a way that makes it very easy to get free turns, since they are forced to pivot back in, then switch back out to enable their teammates to do anything. Rillaboom, Ttar, and Hippo are all at least decent Pokemon that are not at all passive like Torkoal / Pelipper / Pincurchin, Additionally, their support, while nice, is not at all required for their common teammates to function (aside from Drill / Lucha).
Snow looking at this gen's weather war like:
Okay on a serious note, does Snow actually have a chance to be used as a playstyle? I mean we've got threats like Kyurem and Weavile who could be good, and some other stuff like Cetitan (Slush Rush Belly Drum Cetitan is an utter menace btw, I got swept by this on ladder once because it also learns priority in Ice Shard and hits like an absolute truck).
Okay on a serious note, does Snow actually have a chance to be used as a playstyle? I mean we've got threats like Kyurem and Weavile who could be good, and some other stuff like Cetitan (Slush Rush Belly Drum Cetitan is an utter menace btw, I got swept by this on ladder once because it also learns priority in Ice Shard and hits like an absolute truck).
It's ehh. Cetitan absolutely carries snow teams, and kyurem also is another massive threat. The thing is that a-tales is quite bad, it has super effective coverage against dragon types, but it can't run boots and has to take a turn setting up aurora veil, which can be used against it by getting a big threat in for free or deal big damage to it.
Also, if you want to abuse kyurem (which is one of the two reasons you run snow), just use glowking. You get snow up and a pivot move all in one, so there is that.
TLDR, not enough abusers, it's mainly cetitan and kyurem, and glowking is much better with kyurem.
Edit: Quickly made a team of snow using both a-tales and abomasnow.
Ninetales version
https://pokepast.es/8ec310f1a1dbb756
Abomasnow version
https://pokepast.es/4d8063f982f09b9f
Last edited:
The fact that most of the Slush Rush users (or maybe Ice Body users) are shitmons is actually nuts. Snowslash would be a bit threatening should it get the chance to switch in safely and set up a SD, but is too slow outside of Snow and suffers from those 2 4x weaknesses, and Frosmoth, while not having any snow-related abilities, is an okay wincon with QD that feels very weak and is too reliant on setup to do damage.
I know that you (or mods) deleted the sunflora post, but it is extremely powerful.
252+ SpA Choice Specs Solar Power Tera Grass Sunflora Solar Beam vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Roaring Moon in Sun: 274-323 (78 - 92%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Solar Power Tera Grass Sunflora Solar Beam vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Gholdengo in Sun: 300-354 (79.3 - 93.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Solar Power Tera Grass Sunflora Solar Beam vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Corviknight in Sun: 158-186 (39.5 - 46.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Choice Specs Solar Power Tera Grass Sunflora Solar Beam vs. 64 HP / 0 SpD Raging Bolt in Sun: 306-361 (75.1 - 88.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
My god, this thing hits hard. 
It does like 60% without sun.Also, another funny calc.
252+ SpA Choice Specs Flash Fire Tera Fire Chandelure Overheat vs. 12 HP / 0 SpD Walking Wake in Sun: 331-390 (96.7 - 114%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO
The mods deteled my post, but the real reson why I underestimated Sunflora is because I checked the calcs against Blissey, and well...
252+ SpA Choice Specs Solar Power Tera Grass Sunflora Solar Beam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Blissey in Sun: 324-382 (49.6 - 58.5%) -- 37.1% chance to 2HKO
Yeah for a shitmon this might not have any safe switchins considering that it also learns Earth Power for coverage, mainly deleting Heatran. (Oh and Sunflora got Weather Ball this gen, so this gives it even more power).
252+ SpA Choice Specs Solar Power Tera Grass Sunflora Solar Beam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Blissey in Sun: 324-382 (49.6 - 58.5%) -- 37.1% chance to 2HKO
Yeah for a shitmon this might not have any safe switchins considering that it also learns Earth Power for coverage, mainly deleting Heatran. (Oh and Sunflora got Weather Ball this gen, so this gives it even more power).
I tried out tera fly on kingambit yday it ohkoed a great tusk I was like p0o0o0ogers maximum!!! Its the new roaring moon! BTW, there lots of cn students in aus who can't order pie and coffee in the canteen in simple English but manage to pass their essays miraculously, u should help sell them essay services! Also sell some to me I got c in English when in school halp ;_;
Users Who Are Viewing This Thread (Users: 46, Guests: 68)
- weirdo faye
- Fropop
- Finchinator
- j0nathan
- bhkg
- Demon Queen
- kabaskii
- Anchor9
- Ehmcee
- Kabilapok
- arnimacarni
- TR_Admin
- mrfraud
- ClashofMax
- Carl_the_turtle
- GalacticGato
- 1LDK
- GaijinEagle
- Pango_Rango
- superstrike66
- Seantham
- RustOverLord
- yomaalt
- Platum
- Ernesto
- Avira
- Pluim
- Eeveeto
- Soiramio3000
- MetaSkipper
- BolTingBlazie
- Kitsunine
- Punchshroom
- hypersonic67