Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v4 [Volcarona Banned]

great tusk is literally the best hazard removal in competitive singles history,
Ehhhh best spinner? Best hazard removal in history? Not even. Defog Torn, Defog Lando, Defog Gliscor, Defog Zapdos, they're all better at removing hazards.

I know that Gambit is very particular, but I'm trying to say that 11 bans to balance a developed meta doesn't seem reasonable in the slightest to me
Again, you cannot make the claim that there will be 11 bans needed post Gambit (unless I am missing what you're actually referring to). But also, number of bans really should not matter to you. Given there has already been more bans this gen than nearly any other (only gen5/6 come close iirc), so we're past that point already.
 
Ehhhh best spinner? Best hazard removal in history? Not even. Defog Torn, Defog Lando, Defog Gliscor, Defog Zapdos, they're all better at removing hazards.
Defog Torn and Defog Zap are weak to stealth rocks. Sure, HDB is amazing on them and they are immune to spikes, but being immensly crippled by that is not good. They do have recovery, but I'd say that being unable to do your job if the opponent clicks knock off (which is a common move to click) isn't the best. Defog zap wasn't even the best in Gen 6, since the lati twins were much better and they still struggled to be consistent defoggers. Sure, the pressure thing was cool, but it was inferior to the lati twins in every other way.
Gliscor wants to do other things besides defog (though that is definetely a big thing for it to do) such as toxic and that, it even dropped to UU in gen 7 briefly, so I'd say it isn't the best.
That leaves just defog lando, and I'd say that not removing your hazards is big. Sure, it has a variety of different moves, but the only one it really has that tusk doesn't is toxic. Maybe there is something I'm missing, but that's from what I remember.
So yes, it is the best hazard removal in history.
 
This is a ridiculous and unfounded statement. Gambit is not the only Pokémon keeping ghost types in check, but more importantly, the tier wouldn’t magically fall apart if Gambit were banned. Now I don’t believe Gambit is the biggest issue in the tier atm, I don’t think tiering action is needed so far. But the suggestion that Gambit alone keeps the meta together is ridiculous and, if it were true, would just hint of a deeper issue with the tier.
Yeah, and who is to say it isn't a deeper issue with the tier? We just do not know. The deeper issue could be the Tera, or it could be a combination of pokemon that all create the problems. We just gotta ride through this uncertainty and find out what is problematic about this meta, because at the end of the day, we don't know.

Also I'm gonna ruffle some feathers saying this, but I think Raging Bolt is a way bigger issue than Gambit right now even if gambit is not fun to deal with. Gambit literally is a gen 2 Snorlax situation here when you think about it.
 
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Bolt has this massive amount of variance even before tera is so stupid.
What? Which moves besides thunderclap, draco/dragon pulse, thunderbolt and calm mind is bolt using? Weather ball is only for weather teams.
It does not have variance in its sets at all, and I wonder what you are smoking.
 
What? Which moves besides thunderclap, draco/dragon pulse, thunderbolt and calm mind is bolt using? Weather ball is only for weather teams.
It does not have variance in its sets at all, and I wonder what you are smoking.
Yeah I don't know either, that's why I edited the post in hindsight. I still think Raging Bolt is arguably more problematic than Gambit right now, but I think it is because of its combination of traits and how obnoxious it is to deal with, and I do think it is probably on the restricting side of things, since there really is no good way to deal with it since you can't even burn it to lower its offenses ans the only way to deal with it kind of feels like a game of "I hope it doesn't run tera flying or tera steel", and it doesn't even need to wait until endgame with 5 pokemon down to really do this effectively.
 
IDK, to me, Tusk hasn't been the same ever since Home dropped. In pre-home, defensive Rapid Spin Tusk was the perfect Pokemon, able to reliable get hazards off, make progress with Knock Off, and sometimes even sweep itself with Bulk Up, all while packing immense progress making capabilities. However, this set starting falling off in the Home metagame, with the Kanto birds randomly paralyzing or burning Tusk with their contact abilities. It was still "decent" though. Then Gliscor came along and drove this set into irrelevancy, forcing Ice Spinner on most sets. Going offensive was already incentivized anyways since offensive Ghold and Glimmora forced more investment in speed in order to not get goobed, so blaming Gliscor entirely for this shift isn't entirely fair. Nonetheless, it still was a factor. Add on the fact that tusk has terrible defensive synergy with some of the tiers other best Pokemon such as Dragapult, Raging Bolt, and Ting-Lu, and I have been finding it much easier to slot on either Corviknight or Iron Treads as my removal of choice in this metagame. It helps that Ghold isn't really as common on Spikestack balances these days (I never see Ghold + Glisc or Ghold + Ting-Lu anymore, its mainly just Ghold + Ribombee / Glimmora / Samurott-H).
 
IDK, to me, Tusk hasn't been the same ever since Home dropped. In pre-home, defensive Rapid Spin Tusk was the perfect Pokemon, able to reliable get hazards off, make progress with Knock Off, and sometimes even sweep itself with Bulk Up, all while packing immense progress making capabilities. However, this set starting falling off in the Home metagame, with the Kanto birds randomly paralyzing or burning Tusk with their contact abilities. It was still "decent" though. Then Gliscor came along and drove this set into irrelevancy, forcing Ice Spinner on most sets. Going offensive was already incentivized anyways since offensive Ghold and Glimmora forced more investment in speed in order to not get goobed, so blaming Gliscor entirely for this shift isn't entirely fair. Nonetheless, it still was a factor. Add on the fact that tusk has terrible defensive synergy with some of the tiers other best Pokemon such as Dragapult, Raging Bolt, and Ting-Lu, and I have been finding it much easier to slot on either Corviknight or Iron Treads as my removal of choice in this metagame. It helps that Ghold isn't really as common on Spikestack balances these days (I never see Ghold + Glisc or Ghold + Ting-Lu anymore, its mainly just Ghold + Ribombee / Glimmora / Samurott-H).
Honestly offensive tusk is seems like the way to go for right now since tusk is an excellent pokemon on offensive teams
 
Defog Torn and Defog Zap are weak to stealth rocks. Sure, HDB is amazing on them and they are immune to spikes, but being immensly crippled by that is not good. They do have recovery, but I'd say that being unable to do your job if the opponent clicks knock off (which is a common move to click) isn't the best. Defog zap wasn't even the best in Gen 6, since the lati twins were much better and they still struggled to be consistent defoggers. Sure, the pressure thing was cool, but it was inferior to the lati twins in every other way.
Gliscor wants to do other things besides defog (though that is definetely a big thing for it to do) such as toxic and that, it even dropped to UU in gen 7 briefly, so I'd say it isn't the best.
That leaves just defog lando, and I'd say that not removing your hazards is big. Sure, it has a variety of different moves, but the only one it really has that tusk doesn't is toxic. Maybe there is something I'm missing, but that's from what I remember.
So yes, it is the best hazard removal in history.
The whole "but weak to knock tho" argument was used last gen, and respectfully, it's as weak now as it was then. They aren't "unable to do their jobs if knocked", Zap and Torn were still defoggers even pre HDB so that sort makes this silly. Your comment on defog Gliscor isn't really reflective of how it is. It wants to do other things? It doesn't want to do anything except what it's put on a team for. That's literally it's appeal, it's hugely flexible.

Gliscor fell to UU in early SM for several reasons, such as poor meta trends, but also because it was overlooked and underappreciated, and once it was realized it shot back up. It's easily able to outlast and beat just about every hazard setter, which is a big appeal. As for Lando, you DO know modern non Defog lando is an A+ mon right now right? Defog Lando is so good because it doesn't ease up on offense while having amazing defensive utility and were it around now, it would be on par, if not better than Tusk, for being Spikes immune is incredibly valuable.

You didn't really make a case for Tusk being the best, just commented on flaws the others had, and somehow that makes Tusk the best as though it were a flawless removal tool when it's not. Tusk is shredded by spikes/tspikes, is punished by static/flame body, can be spinblocked.

Also I'm gonna ruffle some feathers saying this, but I think Raging Bolt is a way bigger issue than Gambit
it's... really not. Like it's strong, but it has some pretty glaring issues that limit it (very hazard prone, slow, vulnerable to one of the most common types populating the tier, fairly limited in sets because of a rather shallow movepool). I really don't understand where this "Bolt is broken" idea coms from.
 
The whole "but weak to knock tho" argument was used last gen, and respectfully, it's as weak now as it was then. They aren't "unable to do their jobs if knocked", Zap and Torn were still defoggers even pre HDB so that sort makes this silly. Your comment on defog Gliscor isn't really reflective of how it is. It wants to do other things? It doesn't want to do anything except what it's put on a team for. That's literally it's appeal, it's hugely flexible.

Gliscor fell to UU in early SM for several reasons, such as poor meta trends, but also because it was overlooked and underappreciated, and once it was realized it shot back up. It's easily able to outlast and beat just about every hazard setter, which is a big appeal. As for Lando, you DO know modern non Defog lando is an A+ mon right now right? Defog Lando is so good because it doesn't ease up on offense while having amazing defensive utility and were it around now, it would be on par, if not better than Tusk, for being Spikes immune is incredibly valuable.

You didn't really make a case for Tusk being the best, just commented on flaws the others had, and somehow that makes Tusk the best as though it were a flawless removal tool when it's not. Tusk is shredded by spikes/tspikes, is punished by static/flame body, can be spinblocked.



it's... really not. Like it's strong, but it has some pretty glaring issues that limit it (very hazard prone, slow, vulnerable to one of the most common types populating the tier, fairly limited in sets because of a rather shallow movepool). I really don't understand where this "Bolt is broken" idea coms from.
When your main job is to remove hazards, being weak to knock is crippling when you are weak to the most common form of hazards, stealth rocks. And in previous metagames, while spikes were amazing, they also were not as common as they are now. Thus, stealth rocks was the main hazard and again, being weak to them isn't the best. Torn at least had regen to heal off rocks damage but zapdos has to roost off the damage, and while zap is a great mon, it being forced to roost isn't the best. That lets something in for free and you haven't done your job as a defogger. There was HDB in Gen 8, but overall I think the most common hazard was/is still stealth rocks, so I consider being weak to them not the best.
Defog gliscor I will admit, I know less about. However, being relegated to UU at a time, is something that has to be taken accounted of. Defog was given to a lot of things in USUM, but that means normal gliscor wasn't able to cut it. You did say that it was underappreciated, which I will take your word for, but comparing it to tusk, I'd say it keeping off hazards is a lot more difficult. It doesn't matter if you can get off hazards if you invite the hazard setters back in. That's exactly why in Gen 6 only the Lati twins were good defoggers, because they could at least stop the opponent from just setting them back up again, and even then, they had issues such as being weak to pursuit tyranitar. Zapdos could attempt this with pressure, but that is more niche.
Defog Lando is the only one I can even consider being close to tusk, and I think it is edged out by tusk a bit. Sure, non-Defog lando is an A+ mon, but idk why that is relevant. Defog would mean it can get off hazards, and it might rise a rank, but this is comparing it when it had defog vs rapid spin tusk. It does have a spikes immunity, but tusk in return has better offenses (fighting+ground is insane) and can keep up your own hazards.
Tusk is definetely destroyed by spikes, but unlike zapdos, it can actually resist stealth rocks 4x, which means it can destroy many stealth rocks. It may be punished by static/flame body, but few mons have it. The mons that have static that are relevant are zapdos, while the mons that are relevant with flame body are Heatran (which commonly runs the much better flash fire, don't even at me), moltres and volcarona. Zapdos and moltres are definetely the biggest threats, but one knock off cripples them or a teammate, which I don't think is the best. Heatran is destroyed by both stab moves, while volcarona really doesn't like taking a headlong rush. I'd say it does fine into static/flame body mons. As for spin blocking it, the only relevant ghost mons that could spin block it are dragapult, gholdengo, aegislash and maybe mega sableye. All of these besides mega sableye are destroyed by knock off, with aegislash and gholdengo also destroyed by headlong rush. So I would say, no, it is not easily spin blocked.
TLDR, only Defog Lando-t is close to tusk, and I would say keeping your own hazards is enough of a benefit to give tusk the edge.
 
However, being relegated to UU at a time, is something that has to be taken accounted of.
No it doesn't? Like no offense but this is seriously grasping at straws.

Defog Lando is the only one I can even consider being close to tusk, and I think it is edged out by tusk a bit. Sure, non-Defog lando is an A+ mon, but idk why that is relevant. Defog would mean it can get off hazards, and it might rise a rank, but this is comparing it when it had defog vs rapid spin tusk. It does have a spikes immunity, but tusk in return has better offenses (fighting+ground is insane) and can keep up your own hazards.
Lando is famously an amazing defogger in its own right for the number of roles it compresses while not being passive, and it would elevate Lando right up there. Tusk also doesn't really have better offenses exactly. It has ground+fighting except in modern times, many Tusk go without fighting stab because spin+ice+ground is already eating at slots, and the 4th is usually knock or bulk up. Lando also pivots, which let's it generate more momentum. You're also putting too much emphasis on keeping your own hazards up as if you NEED it.

Tusk is definetely destroyed by spikes, but unlike zapdos, it can actually resist stealth rocks 4x, which means it can destroy many stealth rocks. It may be punished by static/flame body, but few mons have it. The mons that have static that are relevant are zapdos, while the mons that are relevant with flame body are Heatran (which commonly runs the much better flash fire, don't even at me), moltres and volcarona. Zapdos and moltres are definetely the biggest threats, but one knock off cripples them or a teammate, which I don't think is the best. Heatran is destroyed by both stab moves, while volcarona really doesn't like taking a headlong rush. I'd say it does fine into static/flame body mons. As for spin blocking it, the only relevant ghost mons that could spin block it are dragapult, gholdengo, aegislash and maybe mega sableye. All of these besides mega sableye are destroyed by knock off, with aegislash and gholdengo also destroyed by headlong rush. So I would say, no, it is not easily spin blocked.
Few mons have it isn't really an argument when the mons that do have it exist and punish it hard. Again with "knock off cripples", it's a very cop out argument that ignores the nuance in these match ups. The same thing got used last gen to defend Rillaboom during the period when CB sets were falling off hard and there were people that insisted it was still mega good even though it had poor results to show. Knock wasn't enough to stop these mons from being good defoggers last gen and it wouldn't now either. You act like Tusk is clicking knock off 99% into anything coming in, which it isn't and there is an element of prediction for it. (I'll also just leave it there for ref, but for us ND players Tusk is only A- rank. Take that as you will).

This whole bit is getting off of topic in the first place since it's discussing stuff that isn't even around right now so it'd be better to just drop it now. I'll admit I'm partially to blame since I made the disagreement to begin with, but I don't want to distract from relevant stuff for others so I'll be dropping the topic.
 
A mon that I want to discuss about is Meloetta. I've been using in my past few games, and this thing is suprisingly amazing. Every game I've played, it has contributed a lot to the team.
Meloetta @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Serene Grace
Tera Type: Fighting
EVs: 76 Atk / 180 SpA / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
- Relic Song
- Close Combat
- Psychic
- Knock Off
This is the set I am using rn. Meloetta can destroy any team that overelies on glowking and stall teams. The evs are specific, with 76 attack evs, a tera fighting cc from normal meloetta can ko a bulky gambit from full, which is quite great. Meloetta can abuse the ordinary gameplan of switch between bulky resists to wear down the opponent. It can be either an amazing special attacker with psychic, or an amazing physical attacker with cc and knock off. Knock off can also just be a great click in normal form to remove items for the team's benefit. Now, you may think that the opponent can just switch between resists to and get off chip damage, and that's where relic song comes in. Due to its 20% chance to sleep (its normally 10% but serene grace boosts it to 20%), no resist wants to switch in order to wall it out of fear of being put to sleep. I've found that at least one sleep is guarenteed per game when using meloetta. It also has a lot of defensive utility, as you can switch between resisting psychic moves (primarily for future sight) or resisting dark moves. This means meloetta has suprisingly good amounts of bulk which allows it to annoy a team.
Meloetta is a very high skill mon, I don't think I've even scraped the surface of its potential, but it can really abuse a lot of common strategies that try to pivot resists around. I highly recommend you try it out, I've been getting closer to 1500s, which is my peak, so I think that this mon is great if it can allow me to at least get there.
I do wish this thing got psychic noise though, that would be amazing and would fit its design, but apparently gengar is more fitting.
 
For the folks arguing about the best hazard remover of all time, for some reason, gen 8 Corv should be up there. Great defensively, Pressure, not weak to rocks, U-Turn... I suspect this is partly why there was a lot of outrage to Ghold. We had a gen of people who were so used to just mindlessly bringing in Corv and clicking Defog with no consequences. It's still a great Defogger even with Ghold in the tier.

how is ogerpon is a "maybe" despite being worse for the meta than all 3? like there's no way you're telling me roaring moon should be prioritized over this thing
I certainly would. Moon is one of the main ones I feel is definitely broken. Certainly a bigger priority for me than Wellspring. Moon is at least as outrageous offensively with a more threatening speed tier and the ability to abuse BE. Waterpon is a wallbreaker with a manageable speed tier and a locked Tera type. It's not an outrageous thought to prioritize other things over it at all.

I don't want to get into his entire list, but the truth is we have an oversaturated meta. People disagree on what the priorities should be. If you were to suspect any of these borderline mons, it's unlikely you would get enough support for a ban right now. That includes Waterpon.

I suspect that Wellspring arguably has a fairly weak ban case right now considering the problem of being hard to switch into also applied for Kyurem and Gouging Fire. You are 110% going to get anti-ban folks who bring up the counterplay it has just like there were those who did with Gouging Fire. And the truth is it depends on how you build your teams. You cannot realistically account for all the threats in this meta. But you can build your team to deal with any of the borderline threats in particular in the context of a suspect.
 
All I'm going to say if your Pro Gambit case is "it'll make the obvious other overtly strong pokemon too powerful!!!" then I believe that those other obviously strong pokemon should be looked at. If we gotta unleash a tiger to deal with the hyena's causing mayhem then methinks that both should go.
People here seem intent on making their refusal to use Ting-Lu the entire metagame's problem.
Most of the tier's darks are faster than Dengo and capable of killing or severely denting/crippling it, excepting ting (who walls and forces out regular offensive, defensive, and psyshock sets while only MUing iffy into fairy or god forbid focus blast) and samu (who similarly beats regular/psyshock)
Dragapult is its own problem, arguably, but keeping Gambit around just for it isn't good practice.
 
Finchinator I want to call your attention to Darkrai as something that could be surveyed or very bottom on on the radar. It’s speed tier, 90/90 bulk, typing, and nasty plot make it have very little switch ins. It especially gives balance and BO a hard time. I’ve seen it a lot in the 1700/1800s and have even played one EV’d to be more bulky and take priority hits and KO back after a NP boost. The only real reliable switch in is Ting Lu, which is obviously limited to certain team styles and even then a +2 ice beam or focus blast can do serious damage. FWIW I don’t think this mon should’ve been allowed back into an already chaotic tier in the first place, but I know that wasn’t the councils choice.
my personal opinion is that darkrai without sleep is a low priority, if any at all. my quarrel with darkrai was always sleep; without it, it's just another strong setup sweeper in a sea of strong setup sweepers. that's what we signed up for from day one and we all knew it. sure, it has like one consistent defensive answer outside of stall, but the same can be said of half the tier. why would we focus on setup sweeper number 8172849 before any of the other things people have pointed out as problems? can't people just be happy for the guy for beating the mid allegations?
 
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Again, you cannot make the claim that there will be 11 bans needed post Gambit (unless I am missing what you're actually referring to). But also, number of bans really should not matter to you. Given there has already been more bans this gen than nearly any other (only gen5/6 come close iirc), so we're past that point already.
I was mostly referring to Eeveeto's post. I'm not complaining about the number of bans in general, I'm saying that 1. that many bans this far into the meta is pretty pointless and they are just trying to ban everything ranked S or A in VR and 2. its actually detrimental to ban mons like Gambit because so much of the tier has been shaped by its presence that all the work we have put in the last months would be thrown away and we would have to start over with not that much time left to the gen
 
IDK, to me, Tusk hasn't been the same ever since Home dropped. In pre-home, defensive Rapid Spin Tusk was the perfect Pokemon, able to reliable get hazards off, make progress with Knock Off, and sometimes even sweep itself with Bulk Up, all while packing immense progress making capabilities. However, this set starting falling off in the Home metagame, with the Kanto birds randomly paralyzing or burning Tusk with their contact abilities. It was still "decent" though. Then Gliscor came along and drove this set into irrelevancy, forcing Ice Spinner on most sets. Going offensive was already incentivized anyways since offensive Ghold and Glimmora forced more investment in speed in order to not get goobed, so blaming Gliscor entirely for this shift isn't entirely fair. Nonetheless, it still was a factor. Add on the fact that tusk has terrible defensive synergy with some of the tiers other best Pokemon such as Dragapult, Raging Bolt, and Ting-Lu, and I have been finding it much easier to slot on either Corviknight or Iron Treads as my removal of choice in this metagame. It helps that Ghold isn't really as common on Spikestack balances these days (I never see Ghold + Glisc or Ghold + Ting-Lu anymore, its mainly just Ghold + Ribombee / Glimmora / Samurott-H).
What do you mean by "terrible defensive synergy"?
 
Can’t believe there’s a significant number of people that actually think gambit is fairly balanced in OU.

it’s one thing to admit you want to keep it because its useful

entirely something else to actually think its balanced.
I mean, I also think gambit is broken, but I can see why people think otherwise.
It's slow and its priority move is unreliable to put it best. Plus, its typing, while having its upsides, is exploitable by quite a few top mons. It also is really crippled by status and has two different gameplans it wants to follow. It wants to use its typing to switch in to many common moves to start firing hits, but it also wants to preserve its health to lategame in order to sweep. This means it either has to be kept in the back, which means you are essentially playing 5v6 for most of the game, or you are severly compromising on your sweep. Sure, tera helps, but I've found its also really hurt by the opponent tera'ing. For example, ghold should be an easy matchup for it, but a tera fairy completely screws over gambit and means it can get either a d-gleam off or a focus blast.
TLDR, gambit on paper should be one of the most broken mons ever among the likes of palafin, but in practice, its held back by multiple different factors.
 
Running a team of Tusk + Pult + Ting-Lu for example leaves you with 3 Ice-weaks and 3 Fairy-weaks, which makes the core exploitable for IV, Kyurem, etc + some other overlapping weaknesses. I'm personally not a fan of such structures.
Combining all three, yeah, that's recipe for disaster. However, just two would work fine. I'd say tusk + pult is still great, tusk resists the dark type moves aimed at it while dragapult resists the grass and water moves aimed at tusk. That's decent defensive synergy, though of course dragapult isn't used firstly for its defensive utility, that's more a nice bonus, but it still works well. Even if you want to use tusk + ting lu, that isn't bad synergy. I wouldn't recommend it, but ting-lu can take on the threats tusk may not want to switch into in order to preserve its health for spinning. This frees up tusk a lot, and ting-lu can weaken opponents for a tusk sweep later on with ruination. Plus, with the four other mons, you can easily cover the other matchups, for example, glowking fits onto a tusk + pult core just fine and checks both kyurem and IV, and if you really are worried about knock valiant, then primarina could fit on as well. Boom, now you've got a decent defensive core.
TLDR, using all three, bad. Using two on the same team, good. Other teammates can cover the bad matchups, and now you've got a good team with the best spinner in the game.
 
how is ogerpon is a "maybe" despite being worse for the meta than all 3? like there's no way you're telling me roaring moon should be prioritized over this thing
mfw good pokemon is good and yes I would prioritize roaring moon over waterpon because it's fucking ridiculous. nothing about it has changed since it was last banned and then unbanned.
great tusk is literally the best hazard removal in competitive singles history, and in a metagame with limited options for hazard removal i think it's here to stay as a top 3 pokemon regardless of whether or not kingambit leaves the tier
Gen 7 Lando T:
 
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