This replay does a pretty good job at showing how Gliscor deals with Kyurem and random ice coverage, but I think the opponent could have handled it much better if they ran LV Psychic Noise on Primarina over Sparkling Aria (literally why?).
-
Welcome to Smogon! Take a moment to read the Introduction to Smogon for a run-down on everything Smogon, and make sure you take some time to read the global rules.
-
Congrats to the winners of the 2023 Smog Awards!
Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v4 [Volcarona Suspect]
- Thread starter TPP
- Start date
Handling those Strong Special attackers is clearly not Gliscor's Job, as the cores noted would refer to, and besides Psyshock Valiant or Kyurem, the Glowking example shared hits most of the Special answers.
Ogerpon Wellspring is a good match-up but it basically needs Gliscor to come into it instead of Vice Versa, because it can't KO even after SR with unboosted Ivy Cudgel, at which point it gets slapped by Toxic and Gliscor can Protect to rack up a turn or two of recovery/damage, or simply go to the actual answer one should carry to a prominent Water type such as Raging Bolt, Rillaboom, Serperior, Dragonite, Amoongus etc. immediately
252 Atk Wellspring Mask Ogerpon-Wellspring Ivy Cudgel vs. 244 HP / 252+ Def Gliscor: 230-272 (65.3 - 77.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Poison Heal
Great Tusk meanwhile is by no means a common Band user, but it's also ridiculously telegraphed into Gliscor unless you nail it on the switch-in to check you (meaning Tusk can't just be responding to something but has to scare it out to switch). So you're aiming to nail a very particular switch-in (this presuming Gliscor is the team's only answer to Tusk with or without an assumed Ice Spinner) and then locking yourself into a middling power CB non-STAB move to faint a mon and potentially give your opponent a free set-up turn with anything that can survive that like Samurott or Gouging Fire. This on top of the fact that a major reason Gliscor is so powerful is that it's a Hazard setter that Cripples the closest thing the tier has to Removal Support (forcing Tusk to run IS, much less Choice Band, severely hurts its match-ups if it wants to fit Rapid Spin as well).
252 Atk Choice Band Great Tusk Ice Spinner vs. 244 HP / 252+ Def Gliscor: 324-384 (92 - 109%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO (so if it gets the KO on a decently healthy Gliscor the opponent KNOWS you have a band)
Don't you mean 3 free turns? Protect says hi.
Turn 1: Protect
Turn 2: Needs free turn
Turn 3: Protect
Turn 4: Needs free turn
Turn 5: Protect
Turn 6: Needs free turn
Turn 7: Protect
Turn 2: Needs free turn
Turn 3: Protect
Turn 4: Needs free turn
Turn 5: Protect
Turn 6: Needs free turn
Turn 7: Protect
Wow, I didn't know about this? What if, on these stall archetypes, there was a certain normal type pink blob? Wouldn't it be crazy if it was the best special wall? Wouldn't it be crazy if the stall player could predict you as well? What if Gliscor is a physical wall mainly? Do you use non-
Archaludon against special attacks?
Last edited:
While you are correct that gliscor can definitely find ways to get healthy again even without roost, I would appreciate it if we could be less rude to each other in this thread. I would normally delete posts like this but it started a good discussion on gliscor.
It's not enough to say "gliscor struggles with kyurem now" and say it's worse, every pokemon is weak to something, and you need to contextualize where the pokemon fits, how good its best playstyle is, what it struggles against, and how viable are its best answers.
Also forget Kyurem, the real Stall killer is Sun Gouging Fire. You can either run choice band and just click the "delete whatever is in front of me" button or DD and just win after a single turn of set-up. Not gonna lie, I'm definitely leaning more and more into the "Gouging Fire is broken" camp, this Pokemon just does too much. It's Choice Band Darmanitan but with actual bulk, recovery, Dragon Dance, and all kinds of utility techs it can run.
How does people wanting Darkrai banned before Iron Valiant in terms of sleep mean their reasoning is wrong? Could you at least add some explanation, since sleep discussion only really happened since Darkrai dropped, even if it is just circumstance. Iron Valiant has never been broken with Hypnosis before, and most people considered it a bad set. But fair, we can suspect Iron Valiant to see the community response. I expect it will be a No Ban, but you can never know.
Edit: thorton4 responded a couple posts lower and their point is fair. Sorry for bothering them, English is my second language so I couldn't tell sorry.
Last edited:
Seriously, GLISCOR of all things? The tier has Roaring Moon, Kingambit, Deoxys Speed, Hypnosis Darkrai, Terastalization in general and that pesky Gholdengo. Do we genuinely want to ban a check to most of those pokémon? That sounds like a dangerous pandora box to open and knowing how gen 9 OU has been working so far I don't trust you to fix stuff before a new generation.
We've gained a lot of offensive power lately, and this Gliscor IS LESS BULKY than their iterations in gen 5 and 6 because it has lost roost, meaning it's actually vulnerable to strong Choice Specs users. Also, please don't pretend Protect is a risk-free move, it allows stuff like Manaphy to use Tail Glow, Ogerpon to use Swords dance, Free spikes or a moment to use recovery.
It is an obnoxious pokémon, but have you ever wondered why Gliscor is popular? We cannot pretend there's no chance of it giving the OU a needed defensive integrity.
We've gained a lot of offensive power lately, and this Gliscor IS LESS BULKY than their iterations in gen 5 and 6 because it has lost roost, meaning it's actually vulnerable to strong Choice Specs users. Also, please don't pretend Protect is a risk-free move, it allows stuff like Manaphy to use Tail Glow, Ogerpon to use Swords dance, Free spikes or a moment to use recovery.
It is an obnoxious pokémon, but have you ever wondered why Gliscor is popular? We cannot pretend there's no chance of it giving the OU a needed defensive integrity.
Gliscor is absolutely not a problem right now. The tier is infested with Spikers and Gliscor is merely the best one, but far from the only good one. Spikers like Ting-Lu has phasing, Meow has pivot, H-Smaurott has priority, Skarmory has excellent profile. Many Spikers in OU have tools to distinguish themselves well enough to remain viable. Banning Gliscor won't fix hazards.
I’ve never had problems with the sleep clause being implemented, singles and doubles are very different from eachother and that should be accounted for.
However, I don’t agree with banning sleep as a whole as I don’t find it problematic enough to be an issue, never have and certainly don’t do now. I don’t find sleep in it’s current state any more problematic than say paralyzis. If you can’t build a team to compensate to deal with darkrai / valiant which are both reliant on hypnosis then that is something you should fix on your said team.
If something should be implemented in singles it’s an item clause and a gholdengho ban, I find hdb + ghold spam way more problematic as whole than god damn hypnosis darkrai / valiant, do something about the core problems instead of whining about fast sleep which has been around for ages on sun teams.
Tell me what you would think of sleep if Sleep Mod Clause did not exist. As in, without a mod (that should not exist because it does not exist on cartridge, cartridge > your feelings) meaning that Pokemon can Sleep your entire team in a row. Please tell me which you think you would find more problematic.
Well funny story, even if you don't say it we already know; Sleep Mod Clause exists because sleep is several times more problematic than paralysis in effect. Without Sleep Mod Clause, which is a fake solution to a real problem.
Calling for an Item Clause in the generation where everything and its nan got Spikes is fucking wild. Banning Gholdengo would not even be close to enough to balance how hazard-centric that metagame would be.
Really? You as well? I simply cannot believe we are actually discussing Sleep, a core mechanic of the game.
I mean this in a positive tone. I simply never thought it would happen! The main reason I subscribed to smogon's ruleset, even back on cart way in the D/P era was Sleep Clause. Out of all the rules, and I agree with damn well all of them, this made the game actually strategic for a pvp tack-on.
I just never thought of the game...without sleep. We need a clause to make it balanced, and it's very much a complex clause. If it wasn't before, it sure as hell is now. I think back on those debates about spikes or tera or whatever (tera preview, that's what it was), and every so often Sleep Clause would be bought up. I would somehow audibly roll my eyes when people would say dumb shit like "we're trying to maintain cart purity, but sleep clause doesn't count because we seemed it uncompetitive, don't bring it up". No. Not how it works. One or the other. I was wondering how the hell can we have Dire Claw in the game with that logic. Answer: we modified the game's system to fit our preferences. Wtf. Claw (and Effect Spore) can still roll sleep, sleep clause will just kick in and it'll do nothing. How do I do that over cart?
Then I thought, "well paralysis is worse". And in a way, yeah. I've won and lost more games due to that. It's everywhere, and hax can literally prevent any progress. I concluded that para hax is not that much worse than missing a 90% acc move thrice in a row. Yep. It happens. At least para doesn't near automatically turn a game into a 5.2 vs 6.
And besides, even if para is a problem, we can talk about that later. That doesn't make Sleep not a problem, it just means there are two problems.
All this rambling, and I really don't know what to think either way. This is probably the most interesting generation for smogon I think
Last edited:
I've played Ubers UU, and also made tons of analysis over the last 6 weeks of a tournament. Ubers UU during december lacked both Gliscor, Landorus-Therian, Ting-Lu, Clodsire, Glimmora and Ribombee are all "Ubers by usage", while Skarmory was not allowed up until January due to DLC, and the tier just got Giratina and Corviknigh,t both with defog and good defensive profile, while the best hazard setters are special attacking bulky steel types in Dialga and Magearna, and therefore don't work well alongside Gholdengo.
You think a tier like that would have lower need to use boots and that Gholdengo wouldn't be that good... you sweet summer child.
Gholdengo Spikes HO still became the most popular team composition, using otherwise mediocre pokémon in the tier, most notably Garchomp being top 10 by week 5 because it was basically the Gliscor at home, while Landorus-Incarnate was also a popular stealth rock user because Gholdengo owns the best spinner the tier had in Cyclizar, as well as the two defoggers. CUTIEFLY was a genuine pick for Web teams, even though most preferred Masquerain or leavanny. The problem is clearly Gholdengo enabling those teams via being so good at spinblocking, and while Ubers UU has enough counterplay to the cheese bar due to underwhelming stats for the tier, Gholdengo's stats are average in OU. Similar story in NatdexOU where Gholdengo was seen as too much and since then the hazard counterplay improved significantly.
I KNOW banning Gholdengo won't fix everything about OU's HO being too good, but It'll make removing hazards easier for some structures because Dragapult lacks recover. It's a clear, palpable improvement both in theory and in practice seeing how other tiers handled this issue of good as gold in a ghost type making hazards too easy to stack.
Besides that, Gholdengo is just very uninteractive as a pokémon due to blocking all status moves; no paralysis, no sleep, no burns, no phasing with Roar/whirlwind, no taunt to stop setup or recover, and while Magic bounce does the same, Gholdengo also blocks defog and rapid spin. Is just a very obnoxious one-sided floodgate attached to an otherwise fine pokémon.
We don't have to think about what it would be like if Sleep Mod Clause didn't exist. Right now we have a system that works for most pokemon. Reading current Sleep Mod Clause as something that should be removed because few pokemon are still broken under it flies in the face of the current smogon idea of banning things only once proved problematic on all applicable pokemon. It would be hypocritical to get rid of sleep for all pokemon while keeping annihilape banned instead of rage fist. The fact that it is a mod is not as relevant here and another discussion altogether of changing sleep clause mod into a new version of it that is more cartridge accurate. This does little to prove the entirety of sleep should be banned.
Why are you asking for what we think then saying cartridge > your feelings?
okay but actually, saw somebody sweeping with BUTTERFREE in AG with Compound Eyes Sleep Powder. No sleep clause is a HUGE problem. Sleep Mod Clause, could have been implemented better but it is definitely fixing (ish) a problem.
I mean, if stall has been struggling due to other factors then I'm not sure it's an inherently unhealthy trait?
Don't get me wrong, I'm not a stall fan, but my experience with other games has taught me that sometimes specific playstyles can just be shit in a meta. Games just shake out like that due to a ton of tiny interactions coalescing a certain way. For example, Gen 1 doesn't really allow hyper offense due to stat training/DVs making the meta fat, lack of big damage numbers between lower BP, worse movepools, lower offensive stat thresholds, and different type interactions combined with type distribution. Best you can do is run a couple Exploders and pray you tag the right dudes. But you also can't do traditional stall there because no items for Leftovers, less walls to go around, and super limited recovery options. Not a Gen 1 expert and this is kind of a gross oversimplification, but you get my point.
If Gouging Fire is unhealthy I wouldn't say it's because it kicks a struggling playstyle while it's down.
Also, people forget that getting rid of sleep gets rid of rest.
This is a non-sequitur. Multiple different arguments have gone around for wanting sleep banned, none have called for it to be broken, but uncompetitive. There is a distinction to be made between the two terms, and the comparison to Annihilape is entirely innacurate.
Multiple Pokemon have proven to be problematic with sleep, not broken, but can certainly take away games if they get lucky. The case has been made for Darkrai, Iron Valiant, Hisuian Lilligant, and Red Card Amoonguss.
There's a reason why back in the day, a ban on Arena Trap (and then Shadow Tag) was made as a whole, instead of Dugtrio, Diglett, Gothitelle and Gothorita bans. A singular aspect was deemed uncompetitive across all the Pokemon and arguably broken as well.
This is all irregardless of the fact that Sleep Clause Mod is an insane exception to our tiering policy that we wouldn't give out to other mechanics like Evasion and OHKO moves.
No, the council has explicitly stated that Rest will be unaffected, as it is under the current sleep clause mod. It would exclusively affect sleep-inducing moves that affect the opponent.
CobsonYaoi
formerly Holesum420
Rage Fist was only a problem on Annihilape, the only other Pokemon with it is, yknow;
If Rage Fist had a wider distribution it most likely would've gone the way of Shed Tail and Last Respects.
This foolish discussion of banning sleep must cease at once! Havest thou not committed thyself to the 57 precepts? Are ye so eager to abandon yourselves? Precept 3: Always Stay Rested: Fighting and battling take their toll on your pokemon team. When you rest, your body strengthens and repairs itself. The longer you rest, the stronger you become.
'Uncompetitive' is the right word here not 'broken', you're correct. But by the same metric, there has not been evidence to prove that all pokemon are uncompetitive with sleep. Saying even Red Card Amoonguss has been 'proven' to be truly uncompetitve seems like setting the cart before the horse. I have not seen enough evidence proving that even that is uncompetitive. For any and all slower sleep users, even one with random sleep targets like Red Card Amoonguss, it becomes hard to abuse the turns of sleep to maximum efficiency when the player is required to switch in another pokemon to exploit the problem (even if youre able to get maximum sleep turns). The opponent also retains the ability to switch into other pokemon and punish the setup. Even being forced into random pokemon due to Red Card Amoonguss is not quite as uncompetitive as it may sound, as Amoonguss is not the most worthwhile pokemon to have after its used its Spore (as its countered by most Poison/Steel Types) and most other slow sleepers are more of a detriment to have on the team than Amoonguss even is. Think sticky web and the mons you are forced to run to use it.
Its unfortunate but the reason we are even having this discussion at all is because of a selection of mons that are debatably broken without it. We really haven't (?) before had anything that was a strong as it already was with access to hypnosis. Even in previous threads regarding sleep, strong enough arguments were not made with sleep to the point it was strongly considered to be removed. The one thing we can all agree is uncompetitive is the small selection of pokemon that were mentioned in the thread (fast sweepers Lilligant-H, IronVal, Darkrai). I really have not heard any case that presents Hypnosis Drowzee as blatantly uncompetitive as even Diglett is with Arena Trap.
We did try Clauses with Evasion and OHKO moves iirc. They did not hold as these moves were deemed uncompetitive on all abusers of it even under the clause. As a slight tangent, there is nothing in tiering policy to my knowledge that prohibits the implementation of 'Clauses' in general. The 'Mod' aspect is really the only thing that debatably goes against tiering policy, but like I mentioned that is another conversation altogether and can be replaced with a Cartridge accurate sleep clause such as one suggested by MeepBard in previous sleep conversations.
There is no aspect of tiering policy that requires every user of a mechanic to be broken/uncompetitive, only multiple. Gothita for example would have most likely never been considered for a ban before Smogon started banning the abilities. Or for a more recent example, no one would have argued that Basculin-White-Stripe would have been broken with Last Respects.
An accurate comparison would for us to arbitrarily decide to not ban OHKO and Evasion moves, but instead put the following restrictions in place:
- You can only kill one Pokemon thanks to an OHKO move
- You can only use Evasion boosting moves on one Pokemon per game
These are corrections that are as nonsensical as the current implementation of sleep clause mod. Both of these would certainly make these mechanics more palettable, but it's overall a way to circumvent the fact that these mechanics are incompatible with a competitive metagame.
People so thirsty for drama they now making up issues or bringing old issues that are no longer existant into the discussion.
We need to find some other distraction, people getting mad over here, so... HEAR ME OUT, WHAT IF... WE OVERTHROW THE OU MONARCHY ONCE AND FOR ALL AND RESTORE A MERITOCRATHIC DEMOCRACY, where OU leaders are actually chosen by the people and not just some privileged bunch of sweaty Koalas.
Do they really?
We need to find some other distraction, people getting mad over here, so... HEAR ME OUT, WHAT IF... WE OVERTHROW THE OU MONARCHY ONCE AND FOR ALL AND RESTORE A MERITOCRATHIC DEMOCRACY, where OU leaders are actually chosen by the people and not just some privileged bunch of sweaty Koalas.
Do they really?