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Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v4 [Volcarona Banned]
- Thread starter TPP
- Start date
luckie
unluckiest player
I'm in the exact same situation lmaooo
Laddered the hell out of DLC 1 and mostly used Hypnosis Valiant more than anything, and it was without question cheesy and pretty dumb for the most part so I don't mind it going at all.
Haven't played DLC 2 at all but it's not surprising Kyurem would be looked at from experience in SS OU, especially now with Tera. Interested to use it before it potentially goes to form a solid opinion on it.
-Guy who still believes that hypnosis was a good and consistent set on either of them
Look I'm not happy with the complete sleep ban either but keeping specifically Yawn as I would have done is a cringe complex ban so I understand why they didn't. Also sleep got enough survey attention to be directly banned. Not everything needs a suspect
I maintain that Gambit should have been survey banned and its failure to get banned by suspect is the exception to the efficacy of suspect tests.
There is not always a vote, evasion items were banned smogon wide because ABR made a compelling argument and I'm pretty sure that there was no suspect test for King's Rock either. In both cases, items introduced in gen 2 were banned so almost as old as sleep.
I'm surprised that people didn't know this was going to be a council vote because some members told us they were going to act internally even without a survey, why wouldn't they hold a council vote if the survey indicated that the playerbase wanted sleep banned?
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senorlopez
Formerly Ricardo [old]
Now that the surveys are forum account based (big improvement btw so grats), is there a reason why the individual survey responses aren't publicly available like the usage stats are? I haven't managed to find this addressed anywhere. I would love to go through the data.
This was how I learned PVK was banned from this website and now I wonder what they did lmao
I know we're all very fixated on sleep right now but if i could have your attention id like to put a spotlight on the "worst" deoxys. Ive tried a few sets, i think the weakness policy set is really potent with cosmic power/ stored power however it does struggle against dark types which are everywhere. as a hazard setter its not as great as glimmora or deoxys-s. having said that, no other pokemon can pressure stall as well as deoxys-D. a lot of the new powerful moves this generation are 8pp so youre really stressing out opposing pokemon using Make it rain, mighty cleave, draco meteor, magma storm etc. once theyre out of pp they become fodder for your other pokemon to take advantage of.
It also works really well agaisnt setup sweepers like manaphy and dragonite. i had dragonite lock me into cosmic power with encore while we both boosted to +6. encore ran out of pp and then he lost to night shade since eq was doing like 23-25%. i like to pair it with rillaboom so that you can safely stall out gliscor/ clodsires earthquake after you tera poison.
@ Leftovers
Ability: Pressure
Tera Type: Poison
EVs: 248 HP / 96 Def / 164 SpD
Impish Nature
- Cosmic Power
- Recover
- Night Shade
- Knock Off
It also works really well agaisnt setup sweepers like manaphy and dragonite. i had dragonite lock me into cosmic power with encore while we both boosted to +6. encore ran out of pp and then he lost to night shade since eq was doing like 23-25%. i like to pair it with rillaboom so that you can safely stall out gliscor/ clodsires earthquake after you tera poison.
@ Leftovers Ability: Pressure
Tera Type: Poison
EVs: 248 HP / 96 Def / 164 SpD
Impish Nature
- Cosmic Power
- Recover
- Night Shade
- Knock Off
Yet other mechanics, for example Dynamax and Tera DID get suspect tested, pokemon vs mechanics argument isn't a strong argument when the precedent is to also suspect the mechanic.
I think everyone would like to pretend that Dynamax wasn't suspected and was just banned (I genuinely think the gen 8 OU beta was the single worst CGAT OU ever). Tera was divisive enough to deserve a suspect and it wasn't banned which is good. Sleep Moves are different and, quite honestly, you sound like someone in the OU chat room on showdown who's coping that darkrai is broken and sleep was fine.
Completely different scale, as much as people like to pretend "generational mechanics shouldn't have preferential treatment" - that is the case because of how unique it makes the generations every time a new one is introduced. Where were you when all forms of Evasion were banned without a suspect?
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Rain was never broken with Barra and Peli in DLC1. In fact it wasn’t even considered to be “good”. Exploited by Wogre and Rillaboom, and Zap/Gking/Ting cores become very common during this time. Rain used to operate off of mostly frail but offensive threats, but always had weaknesses into bulky waters, Dnite, and Rilla. Archaludon patches up all of these issues on top of being hard to OHKO and hard to switch into. Which is why Rain is the best its ever been in forever and why people, most notably top players are calling for a suspect.
senorlopez
Formerly Ricardo [old]
Btw, thank you from removing grasswhistle from the list of ban moves after I raised up that fact on r/stunfisk that no mon in SV OU learned that move... you might want to do the same with lovely kiss...
Well since Kyurem is likely getting kicked out of the tier, who do think that will benefit from this the most? I think Weavile loves losing his competition for a physical ice type, also Dnite loves losing another dragon who can beat it with an ice move.
Heatran stonks rising to heights not seen since he first dropped in the tier
I think the reason kyurem is up for debate is sets that would otherwise be unviable being able to prank those who expect reg boots or specs
combined with somewhat limited defensive counterplay
i will be voting dnb as it has lots of revenge killer despite its solid bulk and its strongest set has a weakness to hazards from common pokemon it n otherwise destroys, not to mention galarian slowking can pivot around boots and help scout specs because it has the bulk to even take a tera or specs boosted earth power once
kyurem isn’t broken to me at all but thats not to minimise the value of those who believe otherwise, we should have debates like this because they are healthy and help us come to a conclusion more
combined with somewhat limited defensive counterplay
i will be voting dnb as it has lots of revenge killer despite its solid bulk and its strongest set has a weakness to hazards from common pokemon it n otherwise destroys, not to mention galarian slowking can pivot around boots and help scout specs because it has the bulk to even take a tera or specs boosted earth power once
kyurem isn’t broken to me at all but thats not to minimise the value of those who believe otherwise, we should have debates like this because they are healthy and help us come to a conclusion more
TCTphantom
formerly MX42
Gliscor. Kyurem is back breaking for balance and without him around, Gliscor can flex its muscles even more.
One thing to consider about DLC1 Barraskewda is that it didn't actually have Flip Turn yet, which greatly reduced it's opportunities and forced it to hard switch against bulky waters.
Hi I would like to share my thoughts about the sleep move ban.
- This is a terrible ban, and it was done in a terrible manner with zero consistent logic. A few players deciding on a whole mechanic is wholly wrong. The ban gained traction based on results from a risky Darkrai set, and a niche Iron Valiant set. You already know what this means: there were some especially dramatic victories in tournament/high level play and players are not happy about it.
- That's the only real reason. Everything else has been pseudo intellectual arguments to justify a supermajority of a minority of the player base making this change. I'll break down the integrity of the ban below, and explain why it truly is just a kneejerk reaction with no foundational argument:
- This was never about sleep specifically, because mons like A-Ninetales and Amoongus have been running around using Hypnosis and Spore to no complaint for a while now, and before that Clodsire and Torkoal made healthy use of Yawn (and mons like Hippowdon in lower tiers). Beyond that, Sleep Clause acted as a proper buffer for sleep abuse, and the "cartridge integrity" argument is pointless because we already know that Smogon does not always go by cartridge. Just banning OHKO moves is against cartridge so why pretend to be in hysterics about Sleep Clause? If sleep was truly such an overwhelming issue, why ignore it until now?
- This isn't about status in general, because freeze and paralysis (which has been nerfed over the gens) are not included in the argument. If status that randomly hampered your ability to act was an issue, why not also ban anything that can freeze or paralyze the opponent? A comprehensive ban of anything that randomly hampers actions would be a more grounded implementation of the complaint of the council based on their pseudo-arguments against sleep, which are that it is "uncompetitive" and can wildly swing momentum. Don't freeze and paralysis do the same thing?
- This isn't about RNG in general. We already know many moves and abilities that players are perfectly okay with and use have chances to afflict status such as is the case of a plethora of moves, and abilities like Static and Flame Body. So a random chance of status being applied and swinging momentum in your favor in a manner totally outside of both players' control ALREADY exists and is CONDONED. So it's not about sleep, it's not about agency-robbing status, and it's not about RNG. The ban is inconsistent with the logic of any of these arguments.
So what is this about? This is about tourney players getting caught with their pants down versus a risky Sash Darkrai set spamming hypnosis, and Iron Valiant (yet again) showing up with a set that allows it to really abuse it's booster energy speed strategy to overwhelm the opponent. The end results of this ban shows how terrible it is:
- Darkrai will languish as a subpar special attacker and probably continue to drop in the tiers (because the mon is designed around abusing sleep)
- Iron Valiant will be perfectly fine because that mon can do literally whatever it wants with its massive movepool, and booster energy speed.
- offense is even MORE powerful now because defensive mons can no longer threaten sleep on greedy switch ins and boost attempts.
- many mons like Amoongus, Torkoal, Hippowdon, Alolan Ninetales, and others will lose a desperately needed tool to maintain viability wherever they are.
The easiest way to sum up how stupid and illogical this ban is is this: Sweet Kiss is banned, but Dire Claw is not.
The logically consistent choices when dealing with this scenario, if they cared at all about competitive integrity and being part of a community, would have been:
1. Nothing at all. Darkrai and Valiant are relying on risky and niche sets to surprise their opponents hoping for RNG to save them. It is what it is. If a player wants to bet the farm on that, let them.
2. If you feel you MUST ban a move, ban hypnosis. A 60 accuracy sleep move that is predominantly learned by mons that do not need it in the meta and it feels really grimy when it lands and you get a lot of momentum. Darkrai, Valiant, and A9 are the biggest abusers and aside from Darkrai, these mons don't need Hypnosis to do their job and do it well. Darkrai will end up dropping tiers but, it is what it is.
3. If you MUST ban a mon, then ban Darkrai and Valiant to Ubers. Darkrai will always be rage inducing by design because it's supposed to abuse sleep, and Valiant is one of the most abusable pokemon in the game right now. It can do everything but wall. Status, boost, bait and trap (with d bond), sweep, stallbreak, chip, revenge kill... it does EVERYTHING with an absolutely MASSIVE toolkit that leaves it wanting for just about nothing. It has a move and plan for EVERY mon in the tier, and with a winning matchup to boot. I'm honestly surprised it and Kingambit haven't been banned yet, but you know what, It's good they haven't. Power is a good presence in any meta, as the absence of overwhelming power results in slow grindy matches that nobody but people with unreasonable amounts of freetime can enjoy. (This is within reason of course, so, for example, Gambit is only scary as the last mon, and valiant is scary if built correctly and entered at the right time) but I digresss.
4. If you really want to pretend this is about player agency and pure competitiveness, then you MUST ban ALL RNG factors. Get rid of any move that has a chance to apply ANY secondary effect, and remove status moves that apply any status to you. You must also remove all non-100 accurate moves. I don't think I need to explain why this is stupid.
- This is a terrible ban, and it was done in a terrible manner with zero consistent logic. A few players deciding on a whole mechanic is wholly wrong. The ban gained traction based on results from a risky Darkrai set, and a niche Iron Valiant set. You already know what this means: there were some especially dramatic victories in tournament/high level play and players are not happy about it.
- That's the only real reason. Everything else has been pseudo intellectual arguments to justify a supermajority of a minority of the player base making this change. I'll break down the integrity of the ban below, and explain why it truly is just a kneejerk reaction with no foundational argument:
- This was never about sleep specifically, because mons like A-Ninetales and Amoongus have been running around using Hypnosis and Spore to no complaint for a while now, and before that Clodsire and Torkoal made healthy use of Yawn (and mons like Hippowdon in lower tiers). Beyond that, Sleep Clause acted as a proper buffer for sleep abuse, and the "cartridge integrity" argument is pointless because we already know that Smogon does not always go by cartridge. Just banning OHKO moves is against cartridge so why pretend to be in hysterics about Sleep Clause? If sleep was truly such an overwhelming issue, why ignore it until now?
- This isn't about status in general, because freeze and paralysis (which has been nerfed over the gens) are not included in the argument. If status that randomly hampered your ability to act was an issue, why not also ban anything that can freeze or paralyze the opponent? A comprehensive ban of anything that randomly hampers actions would be a more grounded implementation of the complaint of the council based on their pseudo-arguments against sleep, which are that it is "uncompetitive" and can wildly swing momentum. Don't freeze and paralysis do the same thing?
- This isn't about RNG in general. We already know many moves and abilities that players are perfectly okay with and use have chances to afflict status such as is the case of a plethora of moves, and abilities like Static and Flame Body. So a random chance of status being applied and swinging momentum in your favor in a manner totally outside of both players' control ALREADY exists and is CONDONED. So it's not about sleep, it's not about agency-robbing status, and it's not about RNG. The ban is inconsistent with the logic of any of these arguments.
So what is this about? This is about tourney players getting caught with their pants down versus a risky Sash Darkrai set spamming hypnosis, and Iron Valiant (yet again) showing up with a set that allows it to really abuse it's booster energy speed strategy to overwhelm the opponent. The end results of this ban shows how terrible it is:
- Darkrai will languish as a subpar special attacker and probably continue to drop in the tiers (because the mon is designed around abusing sleep)
- Iron Valiant will be perfectly fine because that mon can do literally whatever it wants with its massive movepool, and booster energy speed.
- offense is even MORE powerful now because defensive mons can no longer threaten sleep on greedy switch ins and boost attempts.
- many mons like Amoongus, Torkoal, Hippowdon, Alolan Ninetales, and others will lose a desperately needed tool to maintain viability wherever they are.
The easiest way to sum up how stupid and illogical this ban is is this: Sweet Kiss is banned, but Dire Claw is not.
The logically consistent choices when dealing with this scenario, if they cared at all about competitive integrity and being part of a community, would have been:
1. Nothing at all. Darkrai and Valiant are relying on risky and niche sets to surprise their opponents hoping for RNG to save them. It is what it is. If a player wants to bet the farm on that, let them.
2. If you feel you MUST ban a move, ban hypnosis. A 60 accuracy sleep move that is predominantly learned by mons that do not need it in the meta and it feels really grimy when it lands and you get a lot of momentum. Darkrai, Valiant, and A9 are the biggest abusers and aside from Darkrai, these mons don't need Hypnosis to do their job and do it well. Darkrai will end up dropping tiers but, it is what it is.
3. If you MUST ban a mon, then ban Darkrai and Valiant to Ubers. Darkrai will always be rage inducing by design because it's supposed to abuse sleep, and Valiant is one of the most abusable pokemon in the game right now. It can do everything but wall. Status, boost, bait and trap (with d bond), sweep, stallbreak, chip, revenge kill... it does EVERYTHING with an absolutely MASSIVE toolkit that leaves it wanting for just about nothing. It has a move and plan for EVERY mon in the tier, and with a winning matchup to boot. I'm honestly surprised it and Kingambit haven't been banned yet, but you know what, It's good they haven't. Power is a good presence in any meta, as the absence of overwhelming power results in slow grindy matches that nobody but people with unreasonable amounts of freetime can enjoy. (This is within reason of course, so, for example, Gambit is only scary as the last mon, and valiant is scary if built correctly and entered at the right time) but I digresss.
4. If you really want to pretend this is about player agency and pure competitiveness, then you MUST ban ALL RNG factors. Get rid of any move that has a chance to apply ANY secondary effect, and remove status moves that apply any status to you. You must also remove all non-100 accurate moves. I don't think I need to explain why this is stupid.
How have people been building teams for kyurem? I'd like to build my own for a suspect account but I haven't seen it enough to really get an idea of how to build around it.
There's so much wrong with this post that it would take hours for me to boil it all down. I'll just go over a couple things.
Banning moves doesn't violate cartridge mechanics lol. Unless you are trying to tell me there's some force in-game that's making you click an OHKO move every few turns.
Most of the main abusers of sleep were either offensive mons or support mons. Amoongus is pretty much the only relevant defensive mon that was using sleep, and it isn't even OU by usage.
I like running this kyurem set, it is like a low budget version of iron bundle.
Kyurem @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Pressure
Tera Type: Water
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Hasty Nature
- Ice Beam
- Freeze-Dry
- Tera Blast
- Scale Shot
I guess I have to make the most out of kyrem while it is still legal.
Kyurem @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Pressure
Tera Type: Water
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Hasty Nature
- Ice Beam
- Freeze-Dry
- Tera Blast
- Scale Shot
I guess I have to make the most out of kyrem while it is still legal.
Correction, Teal Mask re-introduced Flip Turn as a TM. Most of the mons that had it in Gen 8 got it back, including Barraskewda.