And what's fun is that you can just as easily argue the opposite from the same starting point! You needed not only a specific clause to nerf the moves, but also multiple high tier mons that render your team immune to sleep, just for the mechanic to be balanced.
Kyurem lost Roost, so it's not exactly doing the same things it did in gen 8 (sub roost pp stall, right?)
I don't disagree that tiering policy could probably do with a bit of clarification around game mods and exactly how we quantify uncompetitive mechanics, that would probably avoid the bulk of the arguing in cases like this, but I also don't disagree with Finch that the decision to quickban Sleep was perfectly in line with existing tiering policies, and also that it was the best decision as a suspect test would have almost certainly just been a formality anyways, so saving the two weeks to move onto more pressing issues is perfectly fine.
Absolutely! Rain is one of the most dominant style right now with how broken Archaludon is, Rain had the 7th highest usage in SPL which for a usually more niche offense style is incredible.
No, it no longer runs defog as trying to remove hazard in a skarmory-tinglu-samurott invested meta is futile, and pokemon like iron treads and great tusk are just better. Hawlucha now runs the old-school Grassy Seed unburden sets as offense teams are in the rise right now.
nothing really, its really bad right now, it used to be a good special wall and poison spreader but with Iron treads and gliscor rising in usage, it not being able to wall the best special attackers in the tier, it really is just not good. It can still counter glowking of course, but why use it when there are so many more better answers.
Swords dance + Encore and it being able to counter the combo of Samurott/ting-lu + Gholdengo. Knock off and trailblaze are nice too
It’s right that Kyurem lost ONE moveset, but it can still do that with Leftover Sub Freeze fish. Kyurem however gained a new and just as lethal set though. Loaded Dice Icicle Spear Scale Shot.
Not what I said, I just believe it was hard to argue because there are only two arguments against it. First, is basically not an argument since it's the "who cares if it's not cart accurate" argument. Which, yes, I have said before, but I do recognize that it really means nothing when trying to persuade someone. Second, restructuring Sleep Clause to be cart accurate which I still think is a good middle ground. This argument I think could be good if presented correctly, and the opposing side is open minded about it. Problem, it's way easier to just wipe the slate clean then to actually restructure Sleep Clause. Edge cases like Encore or Relic Song are good enough arguments to shut down at least the first iteration presented in the Policy Review Thread, but it could've and can be worked on.
First off, Thank you Gondre for making me aware of this!
my brother in christ there was a survey
Cohesion. There is probably a policy review thread on that, it's called transitivy of bans. It's not exclusive to OU though, whatever is banned on a tier, is banned on all tiers below, for example RU banned Light Clay this gen so it's also banned from NU and PU.
Arch is not broken, I don't get why overnight everybody thinks so. Sure, it is powerful, but it has horrendous special bulk, and if it wants to patch that up with assault vest, it has to give up either a boosting item or lefties, which is a big concession. It's speed tier while good, isn't great as it is crucially outsped by tusk and takes big damage from both of its stab moves. Barraskweda is much more problematic on rain teams as nothing can outspeed it, alleviating it's nonexistent bulk.
I think MOST people can understand the removal of sleep clause. It's more that every direct sleep move has been banned and I'm certainly in the camp that a few of them deserved a suspect, like yawn, sing and dark void. I can respect people thinking hypnosis was too strong on valiant and darkrai, and without sleep clause blocking spore, amoongus would be problematic too... but the other sleep moves have such horrible accuracy and Yawn has drawbacks of its own, I think they're fair play. I don't like to see mechanics removed completely
Yawn I can at least see some merit in, though yawn + hazard stacking could become problematic. Sing and dark void would do the exact same things that hypnosis did, just with less accuracy. Dark void especially would be spammed because while it does have 10% less accuracy, that is still a coin flip and could cheese matchups. At that point, you are picking straws and it is better to just remove the whole thing and avoid any unnecessary collateral from sing and dark void in the future.
Those moves are like a 50/50. For 14 months I've stared down kingambit and had to guess whether it'll tera dark, flying, fairy, fire or fighting, and if I ever complain the response is "get good". I don't know how staring down dark void is any worse than that. If darkrai is enough of a problem using a 50% accuracy move then maybe thats because it's an uber level mon and is just too much for OU. again I can agree with removing sleep clause because it didn't really make sense but accuracy is a trade off sometimes it pays off sometimes it doesn't. I think "uncompetitive" is a pile of BS something should be evaluated as broken or not, if we think the pay-off for OHKO moves is too high then they're broken, not "uncompetitive". Same as any other move if hypnosis creates too many winning scenarios it's broken, if spore does its broken too. I don't think anything is "uncompetitive".
Honestly I'm just mad sleep powder users got hit. They seemed like unnecessary collateral since they're usually shit mons or just fun mix-ups you can sometimes make work (venomoth in particular has always been a favorite cheese mon of mine that basically is killed in any tier now). I play mostly on cart, and sleep clause doesn't really affect me much ime, there's never a scenario where someone is spamming sleep or where I'd need the mod to cancel it, its more of a QoL on sim than an actual every match necessity. What does suck is removing moves just to nerf some shit mons and amoongus and 2 mons that probably shouldn't be in the tier to begin with.
I mean, people have different opinions. Some dislike the way the ban was handled. Some wished there was a middle ground option instead of a whole sale ban. Some also just genuinely thought that Sleep wasn't broken, and it was the mons that were. It also doesn't help that people are being inflammatory and dismissive when others are trying to discuss topic. I do think if people are getting legit mad they should step back and take a breather because it's just a game. Whatever happens is not that big of a deal in the grand scheme of things.
I don't think Houndstone was banned instead of Last Respects because it was the only pokemon it was broken on, it's because it was the only pokemon it was on period. Once we got 2.5 more pokemon that could run it (basculin-w isn't a full pokemon here) then we could ban it. Anyway fuck Cloyster (in randbats) and fuck king's rock.
I have no skin in this game, but it would mean that Stall as a strategy either pops off so hard that it gets banned, or drops off the face of the earth because of how the opponent will likely KO more mons in the unofficial turn limit, and either way, the meta will in the end be better off.
Sneasler mirrors were one of the worst time to be playing this tier. Sneasler did own offense... until the opponent's sneasler running max speed timid for some reason came in after the rilla sack and cleaned you. Thank god 8/10 of the council had their heads on correctly and didn't unban the fucker when DLC2 dropped
Well, I know I said I was done with the discussion, but...
