Switch Phase and Data

[Dogfish44]

This thread will be tightly moderated to keep discussion intelligent & focused.​

Whilst this issue is relevant to a Tourney Match it has general implications and should be treated carefully.

Issue: There is no codification on what information can be requested during a switch phase. Normally this would not be a problem, but in matches where Illusion in involved there's a larger problem, and that's what has brought this up.

This is mainly a discussion on what data should be available during the switch phase.

To discus:

• Should we be able to see the data of all active Pokemon immediately after a switch phase?
• Does switching into hazards and being promptly KOed by the hazards alone count as being a round or not?

...Small list of discussion. Notable arguments in favour of viewing data are due to in game precedent and making hazards usable as a detection system for Illusion, Arguments against viewing data include tradition, the concept of switches not happening until after orders (As an "Action 0"), and the significant nerf this poses to Illusion.

And I have no idea on what arguments are to be had on switching into hazards to be KOed.

 

[Gemini Taurus]

I don't believe data should be seen directly after a switch phase mostly due to one major factor.

In ASB we are able to see the exact HP stat of our opponent, whereas in game we do not. Meaning any time a pokemon with Illusion has the potential to be sent out, it allows the opponent to call for the data and almost always (except in the case of matching HP) deduce illusion or not.

In the case of Stealth Rock, sure in game you get to see damage, but you also don't get to see your opponent switch before you make a decision, all switches and moves are made at the same time as the opponent. In ASB if you are ordering second, you already have the luxury of being able to make a counter switch, I don't believe you need the extra buff of making Illusion entirely useless.

 

[Its_A_Random]

I do not get the big deal with Illusion & co. as it stands, but I just want to comment on one thing:

And I have no idea on what arguments are to be had on switching into hazards to be KOed.

This minor issue came up here. All I want to say is to follow how this was resolved here in my opinion. If you initiate a switch phase into a mon koed by hazards, the opponent can counter-switch as normal. Then the hazard damage happens & the game advances one round. Counter-switching into a Pokémon dying to hazards would do pretty much the same thing. It is tactical I guess. You can choose to respond to a switch to deliberately sack a Pokémon & take more damage to order second next round, or if your opponent initiated a switch phase to a mon dying to hazards, you have a choice of counter-switching to get second order, but letting your opponent send an advantageous mon in, or staying out, & being able to initiate next round.

I guess this is a good starting point or something?

 

[Gerard]

I agree with IAR, sacrificing a pokemon to hazards damage only has one effect, that is to change the turn order, you can't even use stuff such as Intimidate or Weather abilities since these activate after the switch has been completed. It's a great way to at least get two turns ordering first in a row and it's a great tactical strategy. Though I have to ask, what else happens in that micro-round, what effects get their counter reduced as if one full round have passed and which ones as if only one action had? ex. Does Poison counter gets raised by 1? What about sleep/freeze? Do stat boosts decay on that round? What about Trick Room/Weather? What about X actions moves, do their counters is reduced by 1 action, 3 actions or 0 actions?

On Illusion I say keep it as it is as unlike in-game you know that your opponent is switching, something you have no idea for sure while playing OU for example, so that throws precedent out of the window. This also places much more weight to switching and countering since you are restricted to it, also remember that if you are switching in then your opponent can either counter (if going first or switching in) or you have to go first (so illusion is a lot harder to pull of), hazards are also harder to eliminate in here without switching first to something with Rapid Spin/Defog (which should be obvious to everyone). So either you have great hazzard control or you have 2 or more mons weak to SR while SR is on the field, neither which are very good. Keeping it as of now also has the use that Illusion is usable more than once if Switch = OK but again SR and co. will make it hurt a lot too

 

[Pallas Athena]

For forced switches I am fine if no Illusion is allowed and hazard damage occurs instantly, as if the switch occurred during the round it was forced after Action 3. The main reason for this is just to expedite turns and prevent their from being an unnecessary extra post before orders can be given.

As for switching in to die, I am fine with hazard damage occurring in the ref's post, meaning that it would be an A0 and the round would technically start and end as usual... except no actual fighting would occur. My main reason for this is the simple belief that no damage should be done outside of a formal round.

Granted, neither of these stances are highly elaborate or riddled with ASB legal arguments and I could be persuaded to change stances.

 

[ZhengTann]

Putting out here that the ASB Handbook thread has an "Effects Timing" section that seems pretty complete, following in-catridge precedence. Except, of course, for the fact that switch phases mess up said in-catridge precedence. So looking at it, I'd propose some slight modifications (propositions are in bold underlines):

The following effects occur before the first action of the round is even touched:

1. Trainer replaces KO'ed and/or self-switched active Pokemon where applicable, in that order.
   
2. Healing Wish and Lunar Dance restore HP.
3. Entry hazards like Stealth Rock take effect in the order they were set up.
4. Trigger abilities that automatically activate when the Pokemon enters play activate.
5. Toggle abilities toggle. If Zen Mode is toggled to the default effect while Darmanitan has less than 50% of its HP left, Darmanitan reverts to its normal form.
6. Switch/Counterswitch phase is initiated, and return to Step 3 where applicable.

The following effects occur after the last action of the round:

1. Phazed Pokemon is sent in.
   
2. Weather duration (other than Fog) is lowered by 1.
3. Status effect removal due to Shed Skin, Hydration and Healer occurs.
4. Perish Song counter decreases by 1 and any Pokemon with a Perish Song counter of 0 are knocked out.
5. All ongoing effects with a duration given in rounds that are not specified elsewhere have their remaining duration lowered by 1.
6. Paralysis stage on all Pokemon drops to the next lowest level, and paralysis is cured on all Pokemon whose paralysis stage drops to 0%.
7. Stat boosts and drops that are due to decay do so.
8. Speed Boost, Harvest and Moody activate.
9. Toxic Orb and Flame Orb activate.

Take a scenario where Trainer Hugh switches in Pokemon A after a KO on Hugh's team. Pokemon A would actually be visible, and thus would trigger all sorts of effects (Healing Wish, entry hazards, Intimidate, etc. etc.) before Hugh decides to double-switch by initiating a Switch phase.

Gameplay-wise, this opens up tactics such as double-switch Intimidate and multiple entry hazard damages. This way, initiating a Switch phase counts as a round in itself, even if all you do is switch into a self-KO, paying a price to gain an edge in the battle. Gerard's question can also be answered - the flow will skip from "Start of Round" straight to "End of Round", since no action were really taken.

EDIT: After going through that section, I'm surprised to find no mention of Toxic counter. That's probably a separate issue that could be hotfixed, though.

* * * *​

As to the first question in Dogfish's OP, I'd say no. It will only drag on the match, and furthermore I believe it is an unnecessary nerf to Illusion. Under normal circumstances, Illusion breaks in the round the Illusion mon recieves damage, but if referees were to post stats as soon as Switch phases are concluded, a smart player could realise the ruse right away, thus adjusting accordingly and null any advantages Illusion could provide altogether.

To address Red's issue about an Illusion mon being phazed in, I think the issue can be solved by setting a default Illusion teammate when the Trainer PMs the referee the team before the match, just as ASB players used to equip before the match starts by sending the details to the referee beforehand. I agree that this would raise another problem (especially concerning "Bring 6 Play 4" and similar formats), so there might be a better solution.

 

[Gerard]

I think that it could fixed if the ref ask the Illusion's trainer about what mon should it look like before posting the reffing.

Though with this I have to ask what happens if an illusion mon has been disguised as another teammate but due to the effect of roar/whirlwhind it releases a mon otber than the one it "should" (per Illusion's restriction). Can Roar/Whirlwond select other pokemon or can they only select the pokemon "allowed" on the match.

Ex. In a B3P2 match I send out Aurumoth disguised as Blissey, and I have Milotic in reserve, can roar and co. only select Blissey? Since illusion says that you have to use the pokemon afterwards I think it should but idk what other people think

 

[Mulan15262]

I think that switching a pokemon in to be KOed by hazards should be considered a round consisting of 0 actions for all effects that rely on it (so sleep counter does not reduce, toxic poisoning will deal no damage, but its counter will increment, stats will decay, etc.).

As far as Illusion, idk how it can actually function well and not blow itself away within the first round regardless of being hit by an attack, so idk what to do to help. However, I think that having a pokemon with Illusion disguised as another one should force you to use that other one (unless you somehow win without using all team members).

 

[Geodude6]

However, I think that having a pokemon with Illusion disguised as another one should force you to use that other one (unless you somehow win without using all team members).

As far as I know, this is already the case.

Should we be able to see the data of all active Pokemon immediately after a switch phase?
As ZT pointed out, this would only drag on the match and unnecessarily nerf Illusion. Yeah, I am kinda biased in that I own an Aurumoth and am using it in tourney, but the fact that at least one other user shares my viewpoint means that my view is at least somewhat valid.

Does switching into hazards and being promptly KOed by the hazards alone count as being a round or not?
Nah...

 

[Texas Cloverleaf]

I don't believe data should be seen directly after a switch phase mostly due to one major factor.

In ASB we are able to see the exact HP stat of our opponent, whereas in game we do not. Meaning any time a pokemon with Illusion has the potential to be sent out, it allows the opponent to call for the data and almost always (except in the case of matching HP) deduce illusion or not.

I agree with this sentiment.

irc log

13:41 Texas ok now i'm fully aware of the situation
13:41 smashlloyd22 What situation
13:41 Texas the one where birkal wants to see hazard damage of the pokemon coming in
13:42 Texas as a way to see if he's facing a gallade or an aurumoth
13:42 smashlloyd22 I say let him see it
13:42 Texas i disagree
13:43 smashlloyd22 Why
13:43 Texas hazard damage is traditionally done in the following rounds calculations, and the entire point of illusion is so that you dont know which pokemon it is
13:44 smashlloyd22 Technically hazard damage takes place as soon as the pokemon is sent out, before any actions would actually be ordered
13:44 Texas action 0 of the round initiated by the send out
13:44 youngjake93 I think if you want to be "anime-style" where illusion actually is an illusion, then don't show it
13:44 youngjake93 I don't see a reason to stay true to game mechanics
13:44 youngjake93 but what do I know, I just started
13:45 smashlloyd22 I would say if we're going by anime pred
13:45 Texas we adhere to ingame mechanics where they refer to data and moves and whatnot
13:45 smashlloyd22 Precedent
13:45 Texas in this case we have no ties to anime
13:45 smashlloyd22 Texas in that case he definitely gets to see it
13:45 Texas and should follow the precedent
13:45 Texas set in asb
13:45 Texas of hazard damage being done
13:45 Texas in action 0 of the rounds calculations
13:46 smashlloyd22 Ive had that done differently in a few of my battles
13:46 Texas orders are always made alongside the switch phase
13:46 Texas unless we want to change the system completely so that after a switch phase the referee posts updated data
13:47 Texas he should not be able to see the new information
13:47 Texas sidenote: changing the system in that way would indirectly nerf aurumoth
13:47 Texas but that's beside the point
13:47 smashlloyd22 In a few of my battles the ref does post updated data after the switch phase -_-
13:47 smashlloyd22 Idk this should definitely be voted on after the battle
13:47 Texas a few of your battles is not representative of the greater ASB
13:48 smashlloyd22 Yeah i know im just saying there isnt zero precendent for showing him the data now but greater asb precedent is definitely on the side of dont show
13:49 smashlloyd22 So if we want to just go with precedent for the battle i guess dont show him the data
13:49 Texas in cases where someone asks for a mid battle ruling we almost always go with precedent where available

tl;dr for the current battle he should not be able to see the information; given support we could change the system to mandate showing new data after a switch phase. pros: full information to the battler, nerf to aurumoth; cons: slows down battles, nerf to aurumoth


I do not feel strongly about the other topic

 

[Frosty]

Battle Tower states that, in the flow of a normal battle, the ref only has to post to ref the round. And all battles I can remember of go with that flow (except for battles that have specific rules). So, it isn't a matter of "ruling what will happen", but to change the rules that we already have (for quite some time, I may add). And as a change, it affects only future battles. In other words, the fact that this discussion exists doesn't (or shouldn't) mean that all battles where this is relevant should stop until the "issue is decided". There is no issue that needs to be solving.

Having said that, I am really against this kind of change since:
a) We might as well dump Illusion entirely <_<;
b) It gives refs more stuff to do.
c) In Anime no player can see the hp of mons. At all. The ref that says that the pokemon received a great blow or is weak or whatever. Flavor-wise this makes 100% no sense at all.

"b" for me is reason enough. We have enough bottlenecks as it is. If we have to wait for the ref to post stuff after a switch phase, then there will be one more step slowing us all down.

Also, if you go by in-game precedent (which you shouldn't), it still doesn't go as the tourney battle that started all of this suggests. Accepting a switch phase is considered a Double-Switch (go check the rulings on Shadow Tag for that piece of info). So, if we follow in-game entirely, the HP will only be known after the switch phase is accepted. In other words, you will have to select which pokemon will switch in and then ask for the data.

But seriously, I don't see the point. Is Illusion this insanely broken that we need to do this? I mean, Aurumoth is weak to Stealth Rock (so doing this will either give it away entirely or make the player force another SR-Weak mon out, aka won't be worth it that much) and Zoroark...well...sucks, so this change greatly reduces the effectiveness of Illusion, to the point of being "niche" or pretty much useless. There is no need to nerf Illusion like that with the proposed change.

 

[smashlloyd20]

Okay, so I'm gonna try my best to lay out what I see as the important arguments for each side.

FOR SHOWING DATA: Anime precedent is on its side; in the anime when a Pokemon is sent out into hazards the trainers first see the effects the hazard has on the Pokemon, then begin issuing orders. In addition, it makes sense that a Pokemon that takes double damage from entry hazards would visibly show more pain than a Pokemon that resists them. Ingame precedent is also on the side of showing all data; when a Pokemon is sent out on a designated switch turn, you get to see roughly the amount of damage it sustains before the next turn begins.

AGAINST SHOWING DATA: Like Frosty said, it makes more work for refs. Considering how slowly ASB battles can move, that's never a good thing.

 

[Dogfish44]

Since this thread seems to have died, 24 HOUR WARNING.

Also, temporary ballot of simplicity!

Should we be able to see the data of all active Pokemon immediately after a switch phase?
Yes
No

Does switching into hazards and being promptly KOed by the hazards alone count as being a round or not?
Yes
No

 

[Dogfish44]

That's all folks.