The Art of Hail Stall (ranked nº1 on the Smogon Ladder)

[The_Elitist]

The origins of this team were created by one of smogon's top ladder players, mien. After starting to use it, mien and I discussed various possibilities and tried different team members until we finally came up with similar Teams with differences which suit each other's play styles the best. On this RMT, I will analyze the differences so the readers may have their own insights on what functions the best (the differences in mien's team will be in bold). The team presents as the following:

Abomasnow @Leftovers
Trait: Snow Warning
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpA / 252 SpD
Nature: Sassy
Blizzard
Leech Seed
Substitute
Focus Punch

Abomasnow is a very misunderstood Pokémon most of the times. Having a whopping 7 weaknesses, it is often cast aside without much thought. Yet more skilled battlers know the true purpose of Abomasnow: to wall the ever-common Water / Ice or Electric/Ice combinations used by the likes of Suicune, Starmie, Cressilia, Magnezone, Raikou and a counter to the metagame's many walls. With a Sassy Nature and no Speed IVs, it takes minimum damage from Gyro Ball and enables Hail to prevail over Sandstorm at the beggining of the battle. Focus Punch is a superior choice over Earthquake for numerous reasons, like having much greater PP for stalling CM Suicune or Cressilia, and when intelligently hidden from the set (like when stalling Bronzong, using Blizzard, lading the opponent into believing the last move is Grass Knot) it can prove deadly against Tyranitar, allowing the Hail to overtake the Sandstorm.

Garchomp @Leftovers
Trait: Sand Veil
EVs: 252 HP / 16 Atk / 148 Def / 92 Spe | 252 HP / 16 Atk / 240 Def
Nature: Adamant
Earthquake
Dragon Claw / Crunch
Fire Blast
Stealth Rock

This is what makes the team different from most hail teams - the use of a bulky Garchomp spread. It makes a fine Tyranitar counter and a good switch into Heatran early-game to provide Stealth Rock support. I use Dragon Claw as I don't have trouble with Gengar, while mien can take it down on the switch with Crunch (or take a Shadow Ball). 92 Speed EVs enable for 263 Speed, outspeeding Jolly Breloom (which mien has a sure-fire counter to) and most Tentacruel, which like to stay in to Ice Beam a predicted SD. It makes a good switch into a Lucario's SD, as no Lucario will risk a Close Combat, since Garchomp would obviously be faster (which it is not).

Walrein @Leftovers
Trait: Ice Body
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 Spe
Nature: Bold
Blizzard
Protect
Substitute
Roar

A staple of any hail team worthy of the name. Everyone fears the mighty Stallrein and its virtually infinite Sub / Protect (virtually as it lasts 32 turns maximum, which adds up exactly 200% of Hail damage, meaning that any all-out offensive Team will lose two team members to it). However, its usefulness doesn't end there. It has great HP and good Defense, taking 46% tops from an Adamant max Attack Garchomp and OHKOing back with Blizzard (even if it has Yache) with Hail damage, making it an incredible counter. Just so you know how bulky it is, it can survive a LO Adamant max Attack Lucario's Close Combat around 60% of the time. Roar is prefered to Toxic as the team has TS support and it screws up anything setting up.

Spiritomb @Leftovers
Trait: Pressure
EVs: 252 HP / 64 SpA /192 SpD
Nature: Calm
Calm Mind
Dark Pulse
Rest
Sleep Talk

And this is where the major difference stands. While I use a CM STalking Spiritomb, mien uses an Iron Defensive Spikes Deoxys-E. I personally prefer Spiritomb for being a sure-fire counter to Gengar, Deoxys-E and absorbing Hypnosis, as well as screwing over stall. This really needs some lead-off SpD to counter the said, so this spread is superior to max Defense Bold. It has happened before that Spiritomb was the last Pokémon, so the opponent was unable to phaze it, and thus it swept the remaining pokes. Also, an anti-spinner is gladly welcomed.

_______________________________

Deoxys-E @Leftovers
Trait: Pressure
EVs: 252 HP / 136 Def / 84 SpA / 36 Spe
Nature: Bold
Psychic
Iron Defense
Spikes
Recover

And this is mien's walling Deoxys-E. It is able to switch into Lucario or Gyarados with impunity, doubling its Defense to force a switch and start setting up the Spikes. It is because of said Lucario and LO Gyarados with Stone Edge that mien carries this thing around, in expense of no sleep absorber or anti-spinner. 84 SpA EVs allow it to OHKO Gengar and 36 Spe allow it to outspeed AgiliGross after one Agility and Iron Defense. It makes a great choice regardless, as while I have to play around Lucario and Gyarados and have bigger problems with offense, mien needs to worry about Gengar and opposing stall teams.

Mamoswine @Choice Band
Trait: Snow Cloak
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Nature: Adamant
Earthquake
Ice Shard
Stone Edge
Bite

CBed Mamoswine wrecks incredible havoc endgame. Its typing makes it a good switch into the likes of Zapdos (which stall Abomasnow out of Blizzards like nothing) and its CBed Earthquake in the OU environment is second in might only to Rhyperior (along with Garchomp's). This is in what mien relies to revenge-kill Gengar, as a CBed Ice Shard does from 63% to 74%. Bite is mostly filler, but it may catch Cressilia switch-ins unexpectedly, as well as Gengar ones. In a pinch, its 20% flinch rate has proven useful against Celebi.

Tentacruel @Black Sludge
Trait: Liquid Ooze
EVs: 252 HP / 60 SpA / 88 SpD / 108 Spe | 204 HP / 96 SpA / 172 SpD / 36 Spe
Nature: Calm
Surf
Blizzard
Toxic Spikes
Rapid Spin

The swift switch into the Toxic Spikes this Team hates so much. Provides Rapid Spin support against stall and the Toxic Spikes come in handy to help Walrein do its job. My spread strays from standard, so let me explain: the 60 SpA allows for a OHKO on Salamence with Blizzard, as this can survive a Specs Draco Meteor and outspeed DD Mence before one Dragon Dance. The 108 Speed EVs makes it hit 263, outspeeding Breloom. Max HP to take the only Focus Punch it will ever be able to fire off, as Spiritomb takes the sleep and, from there, nothing on the Team will allow it to set up a Substitute but said Spiritomb, which only comes much later on the battle.

So... this is it. Hail is an offensive type of stall, made to suit the current metagame. Yet this Team is much more than putting up a Sub with Abomasnow on the switch to Heatran and firing of Focus Punch early-game, as wearing it down with Leech Seed and switching with a recovery may change the outcome of the battle. I play slightly more offensively than mien, however, as the Team may give away, so my strategy against offensive teams is to play more offensively (like making sacrifices) until the time for Walrein to come in arrives. We were able to reach such a high place on the ladder by being open to try new Pokémon, not simply using Weavile or Froslass because they are Ice Types. The team isn't, obviously, everything, as the way we play with it makes all the difference, as stated above.

 

[faint]

wtf 280 views and not a single rate? Is our team too perfect or are you guys too lazy?

Haha thats so true. :P

Now I'm going to make a very brave suggestion. Now this is something that I learned from experience a while ago when I played a hail team very similar to this. However it wasn't fully a hail team. This player used Hippowdon over Garchomp. Now after hearing that your probobly like wtf? Hippowdon on a hail team with Walrein? Now sure it looks weird but think about it like this. Hippowdon can do pretty much the same thing as your Garchomp set. However it has more bulk and a very reliable recovery move.

Now as for the whole weather situation goes, many teams rely on weather to win, like this team for example. Now imagine if Tyranitar got a free switch in on this team. If it was too Dragon Dance on a switch in to Garchomp, only to have Life Orb and Ice Beam then Garchomp can't stop it. Walrein would risk taking about 75% of his health only having the ability to Roar it away, and every other member on your team would sit there doing absolutly nothing as it runs through your team. However, if you were to have Hippowdon over Garchomp, even Ice Beam would only 2HKO. This would give you the option of either Earthquaking or Roaring it away. Looking at your team Walrein is the only Poke that would not like sand when it swithches in. This would somewhat force you to keep Abomasnow alive at all times for as long as Walrein needs it. Since Abomasnow summons hail, Mamo snd Hippowdon would be resistant, and Tentacruel and Spiritomb/Deoxys take weather damage anyway. The addition of Hippowdon over Hippowdon gives you an even better Lucario counter. Sure no Lucario would stay in. However what if it was down to 1-1 and your opponent had a +2 Atk Lucario vs your Garchomp. He knows Extreemspeed wouldn't OHKO so he plays stupid and uses Close Combat as a game ending move, only to find out that your slower then he is. CC will OHKO (at least I think it will) or 2HKO depending on your amount of HP left.

The downside of using Hippowdon would mean having a harder time switching into Heatran. However, Naive ScarfTrans are more common at this point, and it can't OHKO with Fire Blast. However do note that their are many Life Orb Naive Heatrans running around as well, and being able to OHKO your Garchomp with Hidden Power [Ice].

This was just a random suggestion, plus I played this team a couple of times and it was a really good match up. You could also try Gliscor over Garchomp, unless you just use Garchomp for originality. It's all up to you.

Congrats to the both of you for making it to the top. Especially for Elitist keeping the #1 spot with his amazing NFE team. :P

 

[gorm]

i use the following evs with that exact abomba.

Abomasnow (M) @ Leftovers
Ability: Snow Warning
EVs: 64 HP/184 Atk/84 Spd/176 SAtk
Rash nature (+SAtk, -SDef)
- Blizzard
- Leech Seed
- Substitute
- Focus Punch

its a really awesome lead. i do miss the speed sometimes but i kinda like fp to you know.. do stuff to heatran switchins


steels, especially bronzongs are annoying since you need to either set up spiritomb or fb it with garchomp, so id suggest surf on wallrein simply because steels are a bitch in general

 

[MKDSJedi]

I like that Abomasnow moveset because it covers Hippo and T-Tar, but I run Brave 252 HP / 128 Atk / 128 SpAtk
I'm not an expert on EVs though.
I have a hail team also and its main problem is Bronzong. But there's nowhere to put HP Fire...

 

[faint]

I like that Abomasnow moveset because it covers Hippo and T-Tar, but I run Brave 252 HP / 128 Atk / 128 SpAtk
I'm not an expert on EVs though.
I have a hail team also and its main problem is Bronzong. But there's nowhere to put HP Fire...

He runs max spD to take on Starmie, Suicune, ect. better If he wanted it more offensive he wouldn't be using his current moveset.

 

[gorm]

oh wow i completely misread that for speed xD

 

[The_Elitist]

Now I'm going to make a very brave suggestion. Now this is something that I learned from experience a while ago when I played a hail team very similar to this. However it wasn't fully a hail team. This player used Hippowdon over Garchomp. Now after hearing that your probobly like wtf? Hippowdon on a hail team with Walrein? Now sure it looks weird but think about it like this. Hippowdon can do pretty much the same thing as your Garchomp set. However it has more bulk and a very reliable recovery move.

Statistically, Hippowdon is the metagame's best physical wall. And what switches into it? Special attackers, which are easily walled by Abomasnow, meaning that Walrein would have no business coming in after the Sandstorm, and Abomasnow would bring Hail with it. However... the problem goes further than:

The downside of using Hippowdon would mean having a harder time switching into Heatran. However, Naive ScarfTrans are more common at this point, and it can't OHKO with Fire Blast. However do note that their are many Life Orb Naive Heatrans running around as well, and being able to OHKO your Garchomp with Hidden Power [Ice].

...The thing is, Garchomp does something this team has problems against very well, which is getting rid of pesky Steels like Forretress and Skarmory. While it may be true that constantly wearing them down with Blizzard or Tentacruel's Surfs (Rapid Spin mind games), Garchomp sets up Stealth Rocks on the switches into Skarmory or Forretress and constantly gets free kills or scares them away. Without it, nothing would, meaning they'd be free to set up and with intelligent play, control the flow of the battle from that same point. However... I had never heard of HailSand until Baris brought up that a friend of his reached the WCoP finals with one. I was certainly intrigued, and can really see it starting to work. But not with this Team... many changes would need to be made around the team members themselves... but thanks for bringing that up, your arguments make me trust it works.

Congrats to the both of you for making it to the top. Especially for Elitist keeping the #1 spot with his amazing NFE team. :P

Lol. I would never ladder with it on my original account... ;p

i use the following evs with that exact abomba.

Abomasnow (M) @ Leftovers
Ability: Snow Warning
EVs: 64 HP/184 Atk/84 Spd/176 SAtk
Rash nature (+SAtk, -SDef)
- Blizzard
- Leech Seed
- Substitute
- Focus Punch

its a really awesome lead. i do miss the speed sometimes but i kinda like fp to you know.. do stuff to heatran switchins


steels, especially bronzongs are annoying since you need to either set up spiritomb or fb it with garchomp, so id suggest surf on wallrein simply because steels are a bitch in general

I don't think you understand the purpose of Abomasnow. With the 252 HP / 252 SpD spread, it takes 20% to 23% from a minimum SpA CM Suicune after one Calm Mind, meaning it can't even break a Sub. Even if it gets 6 CMs through Rest, it will have to Rest the turn it wakes up due to Focus Punch + Leech Seed damage. I always found offensive spreads on Abomasnow fail to do what it must.

 

[Pocket]

I enjoyed this presentation =], thank you.

I think Faint's concern is legitimate, though. I mean, I don't see much DDTar running around, and possibly even fewer of those pack an Ice Beam. However, with no Stone-Edge resist after Garchomp, and your next bulkiest Pokemon being weak to SEdge means a potential sweep. I mean, perhaps Abomasnow can re-activate snow so that Mamoswine would have a lesser chance getting hit by Stone-Edge, but that's relying on chance that is not necessarily on your favor.

But I see that Garchomp is irreplacable. Hippowdon doesn't work, because Tentacruel alone is not safe enough for Heatran coverage. I thought of Swampert, but then you can't bluff Lucario and it isn't outrunning Breloom that would otherwise OHKO it.

However, your issue with Lucario is much less situational, and a bluff alone would not work anymore. Can't Mamoswine go Jolly, just in case Lucario manages to pull up a Swords Dance and take down Garchomp? I mean, you already have Spiritomb as a safe Gengar counter, so you don't need to rely on Mamoswine to hit Gengar as hard as possible. Plus, the speed gain is rather huge (outspeeds +Speed Breloom and non-Scarfed +Speed Heatran; speed tie with other Mamoswine).

I'd also go Impish on Garchomp. This would actually let Garchomp a chance to survive a LO Close Combat after Swords Dance, taking 96% on average (88~104%). Seeing how little Atk EVs are invested, I doubt the loss of 10% in power will make much of a difference. However, please correct me if I'm being presumptuous (or ignore this suggestion). I'd at least give Mamoswine Jolly, though, since that should halt Lucario completely most of the time. Shit, this has to be Mien's spread, however (so you lose a bit in Speed).

Thank you for posting this team - it's obvious that a lot of hard work have went to this, and the simple fact that it was a partner effort impresses me, too. I really like how you added Spiritomb in there, cuz it helps. Unfortunately for me, I've never gotten Spiritomb to work x_x;

 

[Bounty]

It might be beneficial to bump up Tenta's speed to 281, seeing as most Mences nowadays run Aldaron's bulky spread, which has 280.

 

[Baldafor]

Am I missing something? Why is there 7 pokemon listed? Are you asking for advice as to which pokemon is the 6th or did you miscount?

 

[gorm]

it's spiritomb/deoe

 

[Bounty]

I also wonder, how does this team handle leading gyarados? If it gets a DD on the switch (since Abomasnow won't be staying in, I think), it could very well mow down your entire team.

 

[The_Elitist]

However, your issue with Lucario is much less situational, and a bluff alone would not work anymore. Can't Mamoswine go Jolly, just in case Lucario manages to pull up a Swords Dance and take down Garchomp? I mean, you already have Spiritomb as a safe Gengar counter, so you don't need to rely on Mamoswine to hit Gengar as hard as possible. Plus, the speed gain is rather huge (outspeeds +Speed Breloom and non-Scarfed +Speed Heatran; speed tie with other Mamoswine).

Well, regarding Breloom, it already outspeeds it (reaches 269 Speed, while Breloom caps at 262) and it will be Ice Sharding it anyways, so that is not a concern. The thing is... I can't count the number of times that those 35 extra Atk points from Adamant made the difference. Ice Shard makes an incredible late-game cleaner, and people are starting to use more and more Jolly Lucario to stop opposing Lucario (yes, some people play THAT dirty). And I've also amazed myself at what this thing's Earthquake can do (the Atk boost provides some key OHKOs) but I think Ice Shard alone keeps me from making it Jolly.

steels, especially bronzongs are annoying since you need to either set up spiritomb or fb it with garchomp, so id suggest surf on wallrein simply because steels are a bitch in general

Steels are nowhere a "bitch" as Garchomp is, and any Dragons for that matter (Walrein stops any physical sets and OHKOs) and Ice is overall a better attacking type for what Walrein is doing, not to mention the extra base power (the lower PP rarely comes in handy).

I also wonder, how does this team handle leading gyarados? If it gets a DD on the switch (since Abomasnow won't be staying in, I think), it could very well mow down your entire team.

No, it couldn't. Leading Gyarados are bulky (I never saw a leading LO Gyarados) and a boosted Stone Edge from 16 Atk EVs Adamant Gyarados does 63% tops, which means that with the 12,5% restore and Protect I can survive 2 hits and play mindgames with it (it usually Taunts, which is the easiest to defeat) since Blizzard 3HKOs. Also, it can't have everything, so Waterfall/Stone Edge is defeated by Garchomp if one plan fails. Also, Mamoswine can revenge-kill it if it is within Ice Shard range. I think that making suppositions about certain situations is rarely useful (certainly a Team with Swords Dance Infernape coupled with CB Heracross and whatever else would destroy this Team with intelligent play, but such situations are seen... uhm, never? I can't recall one). But Gyarados is far from mowing anything but one Pokémon at best early-game, you can quote me on that.

 

[Colonel M]

Hm... I've been thinking about something but I could be totally wrong. mien's team uses Deoxys-E correct? Why doesn't he use the ToxicStaller set (and just replace Night Shade / Seismic Toss / Toxic with Spikes) instead? Using Taunt / Recover / Cosmic Power / Spikes still works pretty well (no Psychic means you'll need a different strategy but it's worth trying out). I've also noticed that he lacks a Ghost so it could be difficult to keep his Spikes down especially since Starmie can switch in somewhat easily on Deoxys-E and Tentacruel and spin with impunity. Although I definately take into account that Toxic Spikes will wear it out though. It's more suspicion (sp?) than making suggestions. I guess what I'm asking is what does he do once a spinner is present? In particular Starmie and possibly Tentacruel (note: I know Tentacruel won't switch into Deoxys-E while he Spikes)? They're both well-built otherwise.

 

[Corrupted]

Deoxys need 224 Evs in defence to take on Luke and LO Gyara. I would go with ice fang on Mamo, it does far more to celebi and zapdos and OHKOs gengar anyway. Why all that SDef on spiritomb? With that spread any random CBer can send you back to hell.