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Project ORAS NU Theorymons
- Thread starter Shadestep
- Start date
- Status
yea, sorry about that :o
anyways, the winners from week 1 were the following:
1. Arbok + Dark-type (19 votes)
2. Mantine + Roost (14 votes)
3. Lilligant + Earth Power (9 votes)
4. Hariyama + Mach Punch (2 votes)
5. Jynx + Freeze-Dry (0 votes)
Ok so yay, Dark-type Arbok seems like a really popular one. Understandable! You guys gave some awesome reasoning on it, what kind of effect it would have on the metagame, what it would do what it can't do now, etc. Keep up the good nominations all!
Here are the new slates for Week 2! I am going to keep it to 4 Slates this week, as otherwise I fear that ideas may die out and that will kill the thread.. If you have cool suggestions, make sure to PM me them!
+ Recover
+ Rapid Spin
+ Dragon Tail
+ Ice Beam
Happy Posting! be sure to be civil, and discuss the possibilities in the change of viability of these four Pokemon. You may still post your own suggestions, but please keep it to 1 Suggestion each. :)
anyways, the winners from week 1 were the following:
1. Arbok + Dark-type (19 votes)
2. Mantine + Roost (14 votes)
3. Lilligant + Earth Power (9 votes)
4. Hariyama + Mach Punch (2 votes)
5. Jynx + Freeze-Dry (0 votes)
Ok so yay, Dark-type Arbok seems like a really popular one. Understandable! You guys gave some awesome reasoning on it, what kind of effect it would have on the metagame, what it would do what it can't do now, etc. Keep up the good nominations all!
Here are the new slates for Week 2! I am going to keep it to 4 Slates this week, as otherwise I fear that ideas may die out and that will kill the thread.. If you have cool suggestions, make sure to PM me them!
Happy Posting! be sure to be civil, and discuss the possibilities in the change of viability of these four Pokemon. You may still post your own suggestions, but please keep it to 1 Suggestion each. :)
Rapid Spin Carracosta: Costa threatens a lot of hazard setters and spinblockers with its STAB combination. However, it has an unfortunate weakness to Ground and Fighting. Basically like a slower, but bulkier, Kabutops. (The defensive set could be an actually viable bulky spinner. A first for this tier, actually)
Ice Beam Rotom-Frost: Even with reliable STAB, it's very hard pressed to choose Rotom-Frost over either regular Rotom or either Rotom-Fan on a team. It could make for a decent revenge killer with a Scarf set though.
Recover Claydol: I'm not really sure this would make defensive sets completely viable. Defensively, Claydol's typing kind of sucks, being weak to several common attacking types. (Bug, Water, Grass, Ice, and Dark in particular) However, it's still a neat option. You could probably fit it on an Offensive set. (Though very much 4MSS, as without Rapid Spin, Claydol's helplessly outclassed by other Psychic-type attackers. And without Psyshock or Shadow Ball it loses coverage on Hariyama and spinblockers respectively. It'd probably just get rid of Psyshock as Earth Power hits stuff like Garbodor anyway and you can have other teammates to handle Yama (In particular, Acrobatics SD Charizard is a great partner for this addition to Claydol's movepool))
Dragon Tail Sliggoo: I've never used this thing but apparently it's a good special wall. What would make it more viable would be recovery. Dragon Tail is still a neat phasing option though.
Overall, I'm not much a fan of this line-up, but Carracosta would probably be the best for the meta. How it and Torterra DON'T get Rapid Spin is beyond me. (Chances are I'm selling all of these too short though)
Ice Beam Rotom-Frost: Even with reliable STAB, it's very hard pressed to choose Rotom-Frost over either regular Rotom or either Rotom-Fan on a team. It could make for a decent revenge killer with a Scarf set though.
Recover Claydol: I'm not really sure this would make defensive sets completely viable. Defensively, Claydol's typing kind of sucks, being weak to several common attacking types. (Bug, Water, Grass, Ice, and Dark in particular) However, it's still a neat option. You could probably fit it on an Offensive set. (Though very much 4MSS, as without Rapid Spin, Claydol's helplessly outclassed by other Psychic-type attackers. And without Psyshock or Shadow Ball it loses coverage on Hariyama and spinblockers respectively. It'd probably just get rid of Psyshock as Earth Power hits stuff like Garbodor anyway and you can have other teammates to handle Yama (In particular, Acrobatics SD Charizard is a great partner for this addition to Claydol's movepool))
Dragon Tail Sliggoo: I've never used this thing but apparently it's a good special wall. What would make it more viable would be recovery. Dragon Tail is still a neat phasing option though.
Overall, I'm not much a fan of this line-up, but Carracosta would probably be the best for the meta. How it and Torterra DON'T get Rapid Spin is beyond me. (Chances are I'm selling all of these too short though)
This proj is finally back, lit.
Ice Beam Rotom-Frost: This is decent on more bulky spreads, however I really like the power of blizzard on offensive sets as Rotom-F doesn't exactly have the highest spatk o: 120 power vs 90 power is huge, as it will decide many ohkos or not like how t bolt can't even ohko sd scyther.
Dragon Tail Sliggoo: This'd be a top defensive set as outrage is pretty unreliable. A while ago I actually wanted to try this mon out but I thought it had dragon tail, but it didn't. I was pretty disappointed because dragon tail is the perfect move fort his sort of set. Kind of reminds me of Throh with circle throw rest talk curse, but way better spdef and more susceptible to Knock. Pairing this up with hazard stack would be extremely annoying and effective.
Rapid Spin Costa: Having a defensive spinner besides like Sandslash (which is pretty bad) would be interesting. Solid Rock and its high defenses could be extremely useful so this could definitely fit on bulkier builds with the right support for grass/electric counters and such. It has scald and rocks so it would actually be really nice and give NU a better spinner focused on the defensive side aside from sandslash.
dol is bad
Ice Beam Rotom-Frost: This is decent on more bulky spreads, however I really like the power of blizzard on offensive sets as Rotom-F doesn't exactly have the highest spatk o: 120 power vs 90 power is huge, as it will decide many ohkos or not like how t bolt can't even ohko sd scyther.
Dragon Tail Sliggoo: This'd be a top defensive set as outrage is pretty unreliable. A while ago I actually wanted to try this mon out but I thought it had dragon tail, but it didn't. I was pretty disappointed because dragon tail is the perfect move fort his sort of set. Kind of reminds me of Throh with circle throw rest talk curse, but way better spdef and more susceptible to Knock. Pairing this up with hazard stack would be extremely annoying and effective.
Rapid Spin Costa: Having a defensive spinner besides like Sandslash (which is pretty bad) would be interesting. Solid Rock and its high defenses could be extremely useful so this could definitely fit on bulkier builds with the right support for grass/electric counters and such. It has scald and rocks so it would actually be really nice and give NU a better spinner focused on the defensive side aside from sandslash.
dol is bad
Glad this thread is alive, thanks Shadestep :)
Recover Claydol, Stays B
This would not make defensive claydol viable, maybe to an extent it could run rapid spin, rocks, recover and psychic but it's poor defensive typing just makes it pretty pathetic, and not to forget, pursuit bait. Even on a niche offensive set it would still serve no use being a waste of a moveslot on a pokemon that already has a severe case of four moveslot syndrome it just isn't worth it.
Rapid Spin Carracosta, B --> A-
Ok, so Rapid Spin Costa actually sounds pretty cool, it would be an incredibly bulky spinner that can easily get a free spin of mons like tauros, archeops, etc. It has that great ability to switch in and not lose 25% of its health like a pleb mon *cough mantine cough*. It doesn't lose much moveset wise since it can run rocks, rapid spin, scald, filler. The only problem might be that it suffers the samd way Claydol does as in, by using it as both your stealth rocker and spinner it builds too much pressure on that specific mon however unlike Claydol, Carracosta has respectable bulk so it's not as big of an issue.
Dragon Tail Sliggoo B --> A-/A
Ok before I talk about Dragon tail I wanna talk about normal sliggoo, it acts as a brilliant spdef wall, meanwhile it acts as a decent late game win con. However the standard set -which consists of rest, sleeptalk, curse, outrage- has two main problems, the first is it's easily set up on by things like scyther, rhydon, malamar and more, and two is that it has to be asleep before it can attack because locking yourself into outrage prematurely is a death wish. Dragon tail solves both of these, it stops the things I previously mentioned from setting up, while also allowing it to hit something without locking yourself into an easily exploitable move. I believe this would allow it to rise in viability incredibly simply because it sets up on so much, and with dragon tail, prevents anything that might wanna stop it.
Ice Beam Rotom-Frost, C- --> C+
Ice Beam on rotom-f would allow its viability to grow quite a bit. It seperates its self from pokemom like lapras, vanilluxe, jynx, articuno and aurorus by having volt switch. The problem with blizzard was its just so unreliable and forced the user to click volt switch more often than not because of the fear of wasting a turn. By giving it ice beam it doesn't require a hail setter or wide lens and has better options like specs, lo or scarf. It still has some glaring flaws but it instantly would become more viable with beam.
with Knock Off
This would not make defensive claydol viable, maybe to an extent it could run rapid spin, rocks, recover and psychic but it's poor defensive typing just makes it pretty pathetic, and not to forget, pursuit bait. Even on a niche offensive set it would still serve no use being a waste of a moveslot on a pokemon that already has a severe case of four moveslot syndrome it just isn't worth it.
Ok, so Rapid Spin Costa actually sounds pretty cool, it would be an incredibly bulky spinner that can easily get a free spin of mons like tauros, archeops, etc. It has that great ability to switch in and not lose 25% of its health like a pleb mon *cough mantine cough*. It doesn't lose much moveset wise since it can run rocks, rapid spin, scald, filler. The only problem might be that it suffers the samd way Claydol does as in, by using it as both your stealth rocker and spinner it builds too much pressure on that specific mon however unlike Claydol, Carracosta has respectable bulk so it's not as big of an issue.
Ok before I talk about Dragon tail I wanna talk about normal sliggoo, it acts as a brilliant spdef wall, meanwhile it acts as a decent late game win con. However the standard set -which consists of rest, sleeptalk, curse, outrage- has two main problems, the first is it's easily set up on by things like scyther, rhydon, malamar and more, and two is that it has to be asleep before it can attack because locking yourself into outrage prematurely is a death wish. Dragon tail solves both of these, it stops the things I previously mentioned from setting up, while also allowing it to hit something without locking yourself into an easily exploitable move. I believe this would allow it to rise in viability incredibly simply because it sets up on so much, and with dragon tail, prevents anything that might wanna stop it.
Ice Beam on rotom-f would allow its viability to grow quite a bit. It seperates its self from pokemom like lapras, vanilluxe, jynx, articuno and aurorus by having volt switch. The problem with blizzard was its just so unreliable and forced the user to click volt switch more often than not because of the fear of wasting a turn. By giving it ice beam it doesn't require a hail setter or wide lens and has better options like specs, lo or scarf. It still has some glaring flaws but it instantly would become more viable with beam.
First time i post in this kind of discussion thread, but i like a lot the concept of this one, that's pretty interesting to discuss about the things that can or not come in future and compare the actual metagame with another.
Recover Claydol:
Firstly, Claydol is a Pokémon i've played a lot in the past, but regarding to the tiers changes the metagame doesn't let him be as cool as before, especially due to it's typing. Even with Recover, Claydol would be pressured too easily by water/grass/ice type who are a lot more played than before. I also would like to point that access to Recover doesn't let him the opportunity to run a coverage move such as Shadow Ball (unless you are running another rock setter but then i think others spinner could do this job better) even if it beat common rocker, it's pressured by other rockers like Torterra or Carracosta if it run Psychic, or common defog such as Skuntank if it run Psychic, Mantine, Pelipper or Shiftry.
Rapid Spin Carracosta:
Carracosta is actually a pretty cool rocker, because there isn't a lot of rockers that can use Scald, bar Carracosta, Omastar is the only one, and we all know how this move can be helpful in game, in addition Carracosta's decent bulk and Solid Rock make it a lot better than Omastar as a bulky rock setter in my opinion(purely mine, not trying to say thats better of course) but like Claydol, it's pretty easily pressured by common defog such as HP Grass Skuntank or Shiftry. I would like to say that Carracosta, as Adaire pointed, can spin against things like Tauros, Archeops, Swellow(non HP grass variant) pretty easily that is a big point.
Ice Beam Rotom-Frost:
Rotom-Frost is a pretty underrated Pokémon in my opinion, that can actually take advantage of opposing's hail from Abomasnow, but yeah Blizzard's accucary kinda sucks 70% is too low, but i feel like, the addition of Ice Beam wouldn't change these offensive set but giving a boost at it's defensive potential, even if ice type is pretty bad defensively, but the access to wow/pain split+stab bolt beam isn't that bad as it let you keep, even if you are defensively based, keep a better offensive presence than if you only had to rely to Blizzard as a Ice STAB, after, yes, I agree that difference of power change a lot, but the ability to hit all your move can help sometimes
Dragon tail Sliggod:
I've keep this one for the end because that's a thing i've always wish, Sliggoo is an amazing Pokémon that can easily fit in balanced/more defensively centred build. But as it's been said, Outrage as only STAB kinda suck for a defensive mon, as you need to be asleep or to wear down 3/4 Pokémon before being able to lock yourself into Outrage. While Sliggoo is pressured by ice type, Dragon Tail help him a lot to prevent them to come in due to the moves damages+the potential entry hazards (because i mean, if Sliggoo gets Dragon Tail, most of build with Sliggoo are going to run Spikes imo) with Dragon Tail, the only things that can be really annoying for Sliggoo would be Knock Off. In addition, as Adaire said again, Dragon Tail would be an amazing option that can stop set up sweeper that can be annoying such as Scyther or Work up Tauros.
Recover Claydol:
Firstly, Claydol is a Pokémon i've played a lot in the past, but regarding to the tiers changes the metagame doesn't let him be as cool as before, especially due to it's typing. Even with Recover, Claydol would be pressured too easily by water/grass/ice type who are a lot more played than before. I also would like to point that access to Recover doesn't let him the opportunity to run a coverage move such as Shadow Ball (unless you are running another rock setter but then i think others spinner could do this job better) even if it beat common rocker, it's pressured by other rockers like Torterra or Carracosta if it run Psychic, or common defog such as Skuntank if it run Psychic, Mantine, Pelipper or Shiftry.
Rapid Spin Carracosta:
Carracosta is actually a pretty cool rocker, because there isn't a lot of rockers that can use Scald, bar Carracosta, Omastar is the only one, and we all know how this move can be helpful in game, in addition Carracosta's decent bulk and Solid Rock make it a lot better than Omastar as a bulky rock setter in my opinion(purely mine, not trying to say thats better of course) but like Claydol, it's pretty easily pressured by common defog such as HP Grass Skuntank or Shiftry. I would like to say that Carracosta, as Adaire pointed, can spin against things like Tauros, Archeops, Swellow(non HP grass variant) pretty easily that is a big point.
Ice Beam Rotom-Frost:
Rotom-Frost is a pretty underrated Pokémon in my opinion, that can actually take advantage of opposing's hail from Abomasnow, but yeah Blizzard's accucary kinda sucks 70% is too low, but i feel like, the addition of Ice Beam wouldn't change these offensive set but giving a boost at it's defensive potential, even if ice type is pretty bad defensively, but the access to wow/pain split+stab bolt beam isn't that bad as it let you keep, even if you are defensively based, keep a better offensive presence than if you only had to rely to Blizzard as a Ice STAB, after, yes, I agree that difference of power change a lot, but the ability to hit all your move can help sometimes
Dragon tail Sliggod:
I've keep this one for the end because that's a thing i've always wish, Sliggoo is an amazing Pokémon that can easily fit in balanced/more defensively centred build. But as it's been said, Outrage as only STAB kinda suck for a defensive mon, as you need to be asleep or to wear down 3/4 Pokémon before being able to lock yourself into Outrage. While Sliggoo is pressured by ice type, Dragon Tail help him a lot to prevent them to come in due to the moves damages+the potential entry hazards (because i mean, if Sliggoo gets Dragon Tail, most of build with Sliggoo are going to run Spikes imo) with Dragon Tail, the only things that can be really annoying for Sliggoo would be Knock Off. In addition, as Adaire said again, Dragon Tail would be an amazing option that can stop set up sweeper that can be annoying such as Scyther or Work up Tauros.
To be quite honest, recover is a pretty nice move to have on claydol but, it doesn't that this tier is full of powerful hitters that can hit on both ends as well as having bulky typing with decent speed. You got Skuntank, Shiftry, Mantine, Pelipper, Gourgeist-XL/Small, etc. Who are relevant in the area that Claydol is suppose to excel at. I could honestly see Claydol winning against Skuntank with some 50/50s due to recover and colbur berry. It can do pretty good against Steelix as well since it has such good bulk and Steelix's special defense is lack luster so it regain it's health on it rather easily. Other than that, it's not doing so great. So yeah, it's typing really does hinder it from being good. Maybe if it was ground and flying with intimidate...though I'm not too sure how that would like...maybe a genie or some tiger? I dunno. Maybe Psychic and flying with magic bounce...Meh, I'm not too sure but recover won't help it much as it wants to keep the offensive pressure on the pokemon that want to keep it from doing what it wants to do. Shadow Ball for the spin blockers, or signal beam for Malamar so it isn't set-up fodder, and both STABs for pokemon like Skuntank and Steelix. So all in all, recover felt like a miss for me.
Ice beam on Rotom Frost would be great! For PU! lol but nah it would be pretty good here too as it won't feel like it would have to rely on aurorus as much. Also, ice beam allows it to check the pokemon it wants to check a lot easier like grass types. I could see ice beam, will-o-wisp, and volt switch being a thing on practically every set for this and in my opinion ice beam seems better than shadow ball from Rotom as well as air slash from Rotom-fan as a secondary STAB. Ice beam will also be great forcock volt switch blockers like Rhydon, Steelix, Claydol, Torterra, and Golurk without worrying about the miss. Will-o-wisp the rest that try to stop you as Piloswine doesn't appreciate it and neither does Lanturn w/out heal bell.
Ice beam on Rotom Frost would be great! For PU! lol but nah it would be pretty good here too as it won't feel like it would have to rely on aurorus as much. Also, ice beam allows it to check the pokemon it wants to check a lot easier like grass types. I could see ice beam, will-o-wisp, and volt switch being a thing on practically every set for this and in my opinion ice beam seems better than shadow ball from Rotom as well as air slash from Rotom-fan as a secondary STAB. Ice beam will also be great for
Well glad this got taken over. My thoughts on the slate:
Honestly, none of them are especially inspiring. They will be improvements, but they still won't change much up for the Pokemon in my opinion. Thoughts on each one:
Carracosta with Rapid Spin
Could be a bulkier alternative to Kabutops. I think making it Water / Ground would've been a better choice though, as that would've given it a niche over Barbarcle
Rotom-F with Ice Beam
A reliable STAB can only help Rotom-F. Worse defensive typing that base and Fan, but better offensive typing (STAB BoltBeam is nothing to sneeze at). Best of the slate IMO.
Claydol with Recover.
Eh, still gets wrecked by most Water and Grass types regardless
Sligoo with Dragon Tail
Phazing's nice but reliable recovery would've been so much better
Nominations:
Marowak with Sucker Punch. The priority move would make it much more effective against offensive teams, as now most faster Pokémon can revenge kill without too much trouble. I still don't think it would be broken though, as faster Pokémon with Will-O-Wisp like Weezing and Rotom can still take it out, and it still lives in fear of Knock Off.
Honestly, none of them are especially inspiring. They will be improvements, but they still won't change much up for the Pokemon in my opinion. Thoughts on each one:
Carracosta with Rapid Spin
Could be a bulkier alternative to Kabutops. I think making it Water / Ground would've been a better choice though, as that would've given it a niche over Barbarcle
Rotom-F with Ice Beam
A reliable STAB can only help Rotom-F. Worse defensive typing that base and Fan, but better offensive typing (STAB BoltBeam is nothing to sneeze at). Best of the slate IMO.
Claydol with Recover.
Eh, still gets wrecked by most Water and Grass types regardless
Sligoo with Dragon Tail
Phazing's nice but reliable recovery would've been so much better
Nominations:
Marowak with Sucker Punch. The priority move would make it much more effective against offensive teams, as now most faster Pokémon can revenge kill without too much trouble. I still don't think it would be broken though, as faster Pokémon with Will-O-Wisp like Weezing and Rotom can still take it out, and it still lives in fear of Knock Off.
Costa Rica + Rapid Spin
Rotom - F + Ice beam
Rotom - F + Ice beam
Frost and sliggod
Claydol
Sliggoo
Sliggoo
Thanks for voting, all! Sliggoo + Dragon Tail is the winner of this round!
1. Sliggoo + Dragon Tail (11 Votes)
2. Claydol + Recover (7 Votes)
3. Rotom-Frost + Ice Beam (6 Votes)
4. Carracosta + Rapid Spin (4 Votes)
All of the slates have gotten positive responses, thanks again for all the discussion! Let's move on to Week 3..
+ Regenerator (after Mega-Evolving) & Moonblast
+ Poison Point*
+ Flash Fire
+ Solid Rock
+ Guts
Ok! Discuss the impact on the metagame that these changes would make. Remember to keep it nice and gentle :) Happy Posting!
1. Sliggoo + Dragon Tail (11 Votes)
2. Claydol + Recover (7 Votes)
3. Rotom-Frost + Ice Beam (6 Votes)
4. Carracosta + Rapid Spin (4 Votes)
All of the slates have gotten positive responses, thanks again for all the discussion! Let's move on to Week 3..
Ok! Discuss the impact on the metagame that these changes would make. Remember to keep it nice and gentle :) Happy Posting!
Last edited:
I thought the idea of NU Theorymon was to give forgotten Pokémon a niche? All of those Pokémon are already considered good (or in some cases great) in NU. Not that this slate is bad, but none of these Pokémon needed a boost. For the next slate, I suggest you focus on Pokémon graded C+ and below in the VR. Moving on...
Regenerator Mega Audino + Moonblast
Very good, much better ability and a better STAB to boot. M-Audino's already one of the best Pokémon in the tier, and this would push it to S Rank, maybe even break it completely.
Poison Touch Garbador
Eh. Gunk Shot already has a 30% chance to Poison, Rock Blast doesn't make contact, so the only move this would be useful for is Drain Punch.
Flash Fire Pyroar
A definite upgrade. More immunities are always a good thing, and it would make Pyroar extremely powerful if it got the boost.
252 SpA Life Orb Flash Fire Pyroar Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 128+ SpD Mega Audino: 208-246 (50.7 - 60%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Solid Rock Regirock
Solid Rock would give Regirock a great boost, as that really helps it with its numerous weaknesses. It could now set up Stealth Rock and Sun far more reliably. With the right investment, it could avoid 2HKOes from Assault Vest Hariyama and Life Orb Hitmonchan:
252+ Atk Hariyama Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 16+ Def Solid Rock Regirock: 150-177 (41.2 - 48.6%)
252+ Atk Life Orb Iron Fist Hitmonchan Drain Punch vs. 252 HP / 16+ Def Solid Rock Regirock: 131-158 (35.9 - 43.4%)
Guts Skuntank
Not caring about Burns is something any physical attacker can get behind, and it would make it the ultimate Ghost trapper as now it doesn't care about Will-O-Wisp.
Regenerator Mega Audino + Moonblast
Very good, much better ability and a better STAB to boot. M-Audino's already one of the best Pokémon in the tier, and this would push it to S Rank, maybe even break it completely.
Poison Touch Garbador
Eh. Gunk Shot already has a 30% chance to Poison, Rock Blast doesn't make contact, so the only move this would be useful for is Drain Punch.
Flash Fire Pyroar
A definite upgrade. More immunities are always a good thing, and it would make Pyroar extremely powerful if it got the boost.
252 SpA Life Orb Flash Fire Pyroar Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 128+ SpD Mega Audino: 208-246 (50.7 - 60%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Solid Rock Regirock
Solid Rock would give Regirock a great boost, as that really helps it with its numerous weaknesses. It could now set up Stealth Rock and Sun far more reliably. With the right investment, it could avoid 2HKOes from Assault Vest Hariyama and Life Orb Hitmonchan:
252+ Atk Hariyama Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 16+ Def Solid Rock Regirock: 150-177 (41.2 - 48.6%)
252+ Atk Life Orb Iron Fist Hitmonchan Drain Punch vs. 252 HP / 16+ Def Solid Rock Regirock: 131-158 (35.9 - 43.4%)
Guts Skuntank
Not caring about Burns is something any physical attacker can get behind, and it would make it the ultimate Ghost trapper as now it doesn't care about Will-O-Wisp.
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