Project The OU Role Comparison Project V3

[Celticpride]

The OU Role Comparison Project V3
Approved by AM
OP stolen and taken over from Recreant, who stole it from Mowtom

Have you ever pinpointed a Pokémon on one of your teams, where you find it's role to be extremely useful for your team, but wonder "man, if only there was a similar Pokémon that had more manageable flaws for my team"? If so, this is the thread for you! Believe it or not, there tend to be a lot more Pokémon that can achieve a certain role than you think, but often times, these Pokémon are obscure, or they may be common Pokémon using an unusual set, so the people who are looking for such a "role replacement" may end up never finding it!

This thread aims to fix that problem! The main goal of this thread is to highlight certain underrated Pokémon sets, by comparing them to more common Pokémon who fulfill similar roles, both the advantages and the disadvantages! This way, people who feel like their team could use with some changes can get some tips from this thread, or if they are just making a team with certain roles in mind, they can be exposed to some Pokémon that deserve more usage! Also, don't worry if you can't think of any good examples, commenting on examples already mentioned to incite discussion is fine too!

Here's an example to get you guys started. Feel free to use the same format, since it gets right to the point, but if you feel the need to deviate a bit, that's fine too!

Example

Credit to good user Valmanway for this description with a little editing from me

Excadrill vs. Starmie as an offensive Rapid Spinner

Excadrill @ Air Balloon / Life Orb
Ability: Mold Breaker
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SDef / 252 Spd
Jolly Nature
- Earthquake
- Iron Head
- Rock Slide
- Rapid Spin

Pros:
-Base 135 attack easily dwarfs Starmie's base 100 special attack
-Excadrill has a natural Thunder Wave and Toxic immunity
-Mold Breaker gets past Levitators such as Rotom-W and Gengar
-Has more bulk to take hits
-Can muscle his way past defensive and bulky teams
-Great at revenge killing with Choice Scarf

Cons:
-Base 88 speed isn't enough to sweep teams unless they're defensive or you have a Choice Scarf
-Is dramatically effected by Burn
-Weak to common Water-, Fire-, Ground-, and Fighting-type moves
-Can't scare out or take out faster threats before they take him out, such as Latios, Terrakion, Keldeo, Garchomp, and Landorus

Starmie @ Life Orb
Ability: Analytic / Natural Cure
EVs: 252 Spd / 252 SAtk / 4 SDef
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Hydro Pump / Surf
- Thunderbolt / Recover
- Ice Beam
- Psyshock / Rapid Spin

Pros:
-Base 115 speed lets it sweep more consistently than Excadrill
-Has Natural Cure to rid itself of status conditions
-Has Analytic to hit harder when an opponent switches
-Has Recover to heal itself if it forces a switch

Cons:
-Psychic is a bad defensive typing, leaving it with crippling Dark and Ghost weaknesses
-Lacks raw power to muscle its way past bulky teams
-Bad defenses means faster, hard hitting threats can scare Starmie out
-Can't guarantee 2HKOs many of the bulky top tier threats, specially defensive Tyranitar, Mega Scizor without HP Fire, Mega Venusaur, Rotom-W, and Chansey

Comparing The Two: Excadrill has dethroned Starmie as the highest ranking offensive spinner, but that doesn't mean Starmie is exactly inferior in that role. There are a few definable differences between Excadrill and Starmie. For one, their stats are radically different; Excadrill has stats geared towards taking a hit or two while throwing mighty physical blows, while Starmie's stats represent revenge killing prowess with high speed and passable special attack. Another difference is their movepool; Excadrill can use Earthquake, Iron Head, and Rock Slide, taking on Steel-, Electric-, Fairy-, and Bug-types more effectively, while Starmie has Hydro Pump, Psyshock, Thunderbolt, and Ice Beam to take care of Ground-, Fighting-, Grass-, Dragon, and opposing Water-types. A third difference is their typing, so while Excadrill has many more resistances, including Fairy and Rock resistances, Starmie has key resistances to Fire-, Water-, Ice-, and Fighting-type moves.

 

[Celticpride]

Archive

Reuniclus vs Clefable as Magic Guard CMers

Mega Dragon Dancers

Trappers

Celebi vs Togekiss as NastyPassers

Latios vs Latias as Defoggers

Talonflame vs Pinsir as Flying type Swords Dancers

Mamoswine vs Weavile as Ice Shard users / physical Ice attackers

Raikou vs Manectric as offensive Electric types

Mienshao vs Lopunny as offensive Fighting types

Mega Metagross vs Mega Scizor as offensive Steel types

Thundurus vs Klefki as Prankster TWave Users

Mega Garchomp vs Kyurem-B as offensive Dragon types

Serperior vs Mega Sceptile as offensive Grass types

Mega Gallade vs Mega Medicham as Fighting / Psychic wallbreakers

Manaphy vs Keldeo as offensive Waters

Bisharp vs Scizor as Pursuit trappers

 

[DarkNostalgia]

Nice, this thread has gone back up. Reposting with a few changes:

Reuniclus VS Clefable as bulky CM+MG users

Reuniclus @ Leftovers
Ability: Magic Guard
EVs: 252 HP / 200 Def / 56 SpD
Bold Nature
- Calm Mind
- Psyshock
- Focus Blast / Shadow Ball
- Recover

PROS:

• Bulkier than Clefable
• Has more power right off the bat
• Ability to beat things Clefable struggle with such as Heatran, Empoleon, Talonflame, Mega Venusaur
• Access to Calm Mind let it boost its offenses, improving its matchup against stall and balance.
• Breaks balance really nicely
• Reliable recovery in Recover
• Psyshock to win Calm Mind wars
• Immune to passive damage including status, weather and hazards

CONS:

• Weak to Pursuit and Knock Off, making it a sitting duck for Dark types
• Hard walled by Psychic types and Sableye if not running Shadow Ball; if running Shadow Ball is hard walled by Dark- and some Steel-types.
• Taunt bait
• Agonisingly slow
• Small movepool, 4MSS since it wants CM, Psyshock, FB, SBall and Recover all at once
• Pretty weak without a boost
• Popularity of VoltTurn

Clefable @ Leftovers
Ability: Magic Guard
EVs: 252 HP / 172 Def / 84 SpD
Calm Nature
- Calm Mind
- Moonblast
- Flamethrower
- Soft-Boiled

PROS:

• Stellar typing let's it check many threats such as Mega Lopunny, Manectric, Sableye, Keldeo
• Decent defenses
• Magic Guard renders it immune to residual damage
• Calm Mind let's it boost its offensive and defensive stats
• Reliable recovery in Softboiled
• Large movepool
• Immune to passive damage including status, weather and hazard
• Ability to beat Dark types, which Reuniclus struggles with
• Stallbreaks

CONS:

• Weak without any boosts
• Hard walled by quite a few Pokemon; if running the above spread all Fire types such as Charizard Y, Talonflame and Heatran check it
• Taunt bait
• Prevalence of Metagross and rise of offensive steel types in general

Comparing the two:
These two play a little of a similar role: bulky Calm Mind + Magic Guard users.
However, Reuniclus is a little outclassed by Clefable, sadly, who has better typing and is resistant to what is arguably the best move in the meta right now: Knock Off. However, Reuniclus does have a few things over Clefable, including the ability to beat a few Pokemon Clefable struggles with, namely Mega Venusaur, Heatran, Talonflame, Empoleon, Chansey etc. as well as having better bulk and power in general, and does better against balance than Clefable.

 

[Vxy]

Mega Charizard X vs Mega Altaria vs Mega Gyarados vs Mega Tyranitar as offensive Dragon Dancers
**All natures are Jolly to make this comparison as fair as possible. Also, I used their most standard sets.**

Charizard @ Charizardite X
Ability: Blaze
EVs: 104 HP / 220 Atk / 184 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Roost
- Dragon Dance
- Flare Blitz
- Dragon Claw

Pros:

• Best offensive stats (speed and power) of the 4
• Arguably best offensive typing
• Reliable recovery in Roost
• Great offensive ability
• Has many other attacks to choose from (this is just a placeholder set)

Cons:

• 4x weak to Stealth Rocks in base form and 2x weak to Stealth Rocks in Mega form
• Flare Blitz gives heavy recoil
• Lowest bulk of the 4 (although far from bad)

Altaria @ Altarianite
Ability: Natural Cure
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Return
- Earthquake
- Roost

Pros:

• Great defensive typing
• Great offensive ability
• Reliable recovery in Roost
• Good bulk
• Has many other attacks to choose from (this is just a placeholder set)

Cons:

• Redundant STABs
• 2x weak to Stealth Rocks in base form

Gyarados @ Gyaradosite
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Waterfall
- Crunch
- Taunt

Pros:

• Arguably best offensive typing of the 4
• Great bulk and Intimidate in base forme
• Mold Breaker to break past Unaware users and Taunt Mega Sableye
• Great match-up versus stall
• Has many other attacks to choose from (this is just a placeholder set)

Cons:

• 2x weak to Stealth Rocks in base form
• No reliable recovery
• Relatively weak compared to the other 4

Tyranitar @ Tyranitarite
Ability: Sand Stream
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Stone Edge
- Ice Punch
- Earthquake

Pros:

• Monstrous bulk, best of the 4
• Special Defense is further boosted by sand
• Second most power of the 4
• Has many other attacks to choose from (this is just a placeholder set)

Cons:

• One of the worst defensive typings ever made
• Slowest of the 4
• No reliable recovery

CONCLUSION:
There is no clear "best" Dragon Dancer as that mostly depends on metagame trends as they will be more favourable to one Pokemon than another. Each of these Dragon Dancers are good in their own way. Mega Charizard X is a great pick if you want offenses over anything else. Mega Altaria and Mega Tyranitar are great picks if you want something that will have little trouble setting up and sweeping. Mega Gyarados is a great "in between" Dragon Dancer as it offers a lot of what the others do.

 

[Celticpride]

Vxy minor tweak, DD Mega Altaria typically runs max attack / max speed now, usually with Adamant but Jolly is passable. Assuming you got the 64 / 192 / 252 split from the dex or calc but that's pretty outdated now.

 

[p2]

Magneton vs Magnezone vs Dugtrio vs Gothitelle as trappers
deleted my last one to completely rewrite this

Magnezone @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Magnet Pull
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk / 30 SpA / 30 Spe
- Thunderbolt
- Volt Switch
- Hidden Power [Fire]
- Flash Cannon

Pros:
-Solid defensive typing and bulk
-Its bulk allows it to run Choice Specs to reliably deal with Steel types

Cons:
-Its kinda slow
-Can only trap Steel types

Magneton @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Magnet Pull
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk / 30 SpA / 30 Spe
- Thunderbolt
- Volt Switch
- Hidden Power [Fire]
- Flash Cannon

Pros:
-Its the fastest relevant trapper and can outspeed key threats like Talonflame, Tornadus-T, Weavile and Alakazam
-Like Magnezone, it has a great defensive typing

Cons:
-Horrible bulk, it struggles to switch in on resisted hits
-Can only trap Steel types aswell

Gothitelle @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Shadow Tag
EVs: 80 HP / 176 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Trick
- Calm Mind
- Rest
- Psyshock

Pros:
-It's a complete nightmare for slow bulky teams as it can setup on anything that relies on weak moves
-Shadow Tag traps everything but Ghost types
-A bunch of coverage options so it can pick Stall teams apart

Cons:
-It requires setup to have any kind of offensive presence
-Mega Sableye is pretty common on Stall teams, which can wall Gothitelle easily
-It's pretty much dead weight against offensive teams

Dugtrio @ Focus Sash
Ability: Arena Trap
EVs: 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
IVs: 21 HP / 0 Def / 0 SpD
- Earthquake
- Stone Edge
- Sucker Punch
- Reversal / Memento / Stealth Rock

Pros:
-It's the fastest trapper outside of Scarf Magneton
-It has support options like Memento or Stealth Rock
-Arena Trap traps everything apart from Pokemon with Levitate, an Air Balloon or Flying types

Cons:
-Mediocre Defensive typing
-Horrible bulk
-80 Attack isn't very impressive

Comparing the four: Magneton and Magnezone both fulfill similar roles, trapping Steel types like Ferrothorn and Scizor, while threatening faster pokemon out to gain momentum with Volt Switch. Gaining momentum is much easier with Magneton as its higher base speed lets it scare out Talonflame, Tornadus-T, Weavile or Non Mega Alakazam. Magneton/Zone work well with pokemon like Mega Altaria lacking Fire Blast as it cannot get past Ferrothorn or Scizor.
Gothitelle acts more as a Stallbreaker than the other trappers as STag lets it pick anything it wants to trap and use it as setup fodder, it's definitely way more effective against defensive teams and is usually horrible in matchups with offensive teams, it works well in Stall teams being able to help teammates like Chansey, Quagsire or Sableye by trapping and weakening their counters.
Dugtrio is the fastest non scarfed trapper and is mainly used to trap Steel types like Heatran which can give a bunch of Grass or Flying types a hard time, it's often used with pokemon like Serperior or Mega Pidgeot who lack the coverage to easily break past Heatran. Plus it has some useful support options like Stealth Rock or Memento.

I thought my post of just Magneton+Magnezone wasn't really enough because all they could really be compared by was their bulk and speed, so I brought up other relevant trappers. Should I maybe just leave it to the Magnets and Dugtrio or include a bit for Wobbuffet aswell? I just think that adding Wobb might be overdoing it considering I'm already comparing 4 different mons.

 

[urban]

Celebi and Togekiss as Nasty Passers

Psychic/Grass
100/100/100/100/100/100

Celebi @ Leftovers
Ability: Natural Cure
EVs: 248 HP / 152 Def / 108 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Giga Drain
- Nasty Plot
- Baton Pass
- Recover

Pros:

• Runs enough speed to outpace Bisharp
• Natural Cure heals status upon switching
• Typing brings several useful resistances (Water, Ground, Fighting, etc.)
• Giga Drain can heal off HP in tandem with Leftovers and Recover

Cons:

• Typing brings some notable weaknesses (Flying, Bug, Dark, Ice, etc.)
• Grass is a poor offensive typing

Fairy/Flying
85/50/95/120/115/80

Togekiss @ Leftovers
Ability: Serene Grace
EVs: 248 HP / 244 SpD / 16 Spe
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Air Slash
- Nasty Plot
- Baton Pass
- Roost

Pros:

• Typing gives it several useful resistances/immunities (Dragon, Ground, Bug, Dark, Fighting, etc.)
• Flying is a great offensive typing, and Air Slash comes with a nice 60% flinch chance.
• Higher base special attack

Cons:

• Weak to Stealth Rock
• Offensive Steels are prominent (both Scizor forms, Metagross, Bisharp, etc.). So is Tyranitar.
• Speed is kind of lackluster, even for a support mon.

Comparing the two:
Both Togekiss and Celebi can be effective Nasty Passers in the current metagame. The two have comparable bulk, with Celebi's sitting at 100/100/100 and Togekiss's sitting at 85/95/115. The two also share helpful Fighting and Ground type resistances. This is where the similarities stop though. Celebi's greater base speed allows it to outpace some important threats like Bisharp while Togekiss outright loses to Bish. However, Celebi arguably has the worse typing, as it comes with a number of common weaknesses and some not so common ones. Likewise, Giga Drain doesn't exactly get great coverage either. Togekiss on the other hand has fewer weaknesses, and most of its weakness aren't all that common. Air Slash is also great offensively, allowing Togekiss to easily sweep slower teams. However, Togekiss's weakness to Stealth Rock pretty much makes hazard support necessary, especially if trying to pass boosts more than once. Overall, both of these mons do a good job as Nasty Passers, and the choice between the two often comes down to personal preference or team synergy.

 

[DarkNostalgia]

Latios vs Latias as offensive Defoggers with same typing

I will be listing the pros and cons of each Pokemon, then listing the pros and cons of using one over the other.

Latios @ Life Orb
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 29 HP
- Draco Meteor
- Psyshock
- Defog
- Hidden Power [Fire] / Earthquake / Roost / filler etc.

Pros:

• Arguably the best offensive Defogger in OU, amplified by its access to an extremely strong STAB in Draco Meteor.
• Decent defensive typing allowing it to check prominent threats such as Keldeo, Mega Manectric, and Landorus.
• Great Speed tier, outspeeding Pokemon such as Keldeo, Manaphy, and Landorus.
• Versatile, ability to run a multitude of sets (not limited to Life Orb + Defog sets).
• Tons of coverage moves in its arsenal, such as Hidden Power Fire, Earthquake, Shadow Ball, and Thunderbolt.
• Lots of utility and support moves as well, such as Memento and Tailwind.
• Reliable recovery if needed in Roost

Cons:

• Typing is a double-edged sword, rendering it weak to the omnipresent Knock Off and Pursuit.
• Increase in usage of Pursuit users such as Tyranitar, Steel-types such as Mega Metagross, and Fairy-types such as Clefable.
• Resides in somewhat crowded Speed tier, relies on Speed tying with the likes of Gengar, Mega Diancie, and Latias.
• Underwhelming bulk, furthered by the abundance of strong attackers in OU such as Mega Metagross and Azumarill and faster Pokemon such as Talonflame and Thundurus.
• Latiosite sucks; tremendous opportunity cost.

Latias @ Life Orb
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 72 HP / 184 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Draco Meteor
- Psyshock
- Healing Wish
- Defog

Pros:

• Excellent Speed, outpacing huge threats such as Manaphy and Keldeo.
• Decent defensive typing to check such threats easier.
• Good bulk.
• Reliable recovery if needed in Roost.
• Excellent support and utility movepool, including the coveted Healing Wish and Reflect Type.
• Draco Meteor has a lot of power.
• Latiasite is a viable item, gaining significantly more bulk to act as a Calm Mind user and defensive utility Pokemon with Reflect Type.

Cons:

• Stiff competition from Latios; Latias has worse offensive presence.
• Strapped for moveslots and easily exploitable, as it basically needs all four moves to function well.
• Troubled with Steel-types such as Mega Metagross and Heatran because it is reduced to running its STABs.
• Typing is a double-edged sword, rendering it weak to common offensive typings such as Ice, Dark, and Bug.
• Increase in usage of Pursuit users such as Tyranitar, Steel-types such as Mega Metagross, and Fairy-types such as Clefable.
• Resides in somewhat crowded Speed tier, relies on Speed tying with the likes of Gengar, Mega Diancie, and Latias.

==============

Pros of running Latios>Latias:

• Much better offensive presence.
• Less predictable, as Latios has many other viable sets as well such as Choice Scarf, Calm Mind, and dual Screens, and essentially has one moveslot free for coverage or utility such as Earthquake or Roost which adds to the 'unpredictability' factor. More multi-dimensional should I say.
• Latios had Memento, which Latias doesn't have.
• Better Attack stat, can opt to go for Earthquake to surprise Heatran and also Tyranitar and Assault Vest Bisharp switch-ins designed to deal with Latios.

Pros of running Latias>Latios:

• Better bulk, allowing more switch-ins against the likes of Keldeo and Landorus.
• Latiasite is also an option over Life Orb to turn into a more defensive win-con (Calm Mind + Stored Power) or utility defensive Pokemon (Reflect Type + Thunder Wave).
• Access to Healing Wish, which is great when paired with offensive teammates, as well as Reflect Type.

 

[Vxy]

Vxy minor tweak, DD Mega Altaria typically runs max attack / max speed now, usually with Adamant but Jolly is passable. Assuming you got the 64 / 192 / 252 split from the dex or calc but that's pretty outdated now.

Okay I'll change the spread to max/max but still keeping Jolly as I said at the top of the post to make it as fair as possible.

Also lol Mega Altaria now matches Mega Tyranitar's Stone Edge.

 

[lepton]

Mega Pinsir vs Talonflame as flying type Swords Dancers

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
Pinsir @ Pinsirite
Ability: Hyper Cutter/Mold Breaker ----> Aerilate
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Swords Dance
- Return
- Close Combat/Earthquake
- Quick Attack

Pros:

• Good bulk
• Good coverage with CC or EQ
• Powerful priority with Aerilate-boosted Quick Attack
• Return hurts
• Hyper Cutter before Mega-Evolving doesn't allow intimidate users to annoy him
• Mold Breaker is also an option, allowing him to hit Rotom-W with EQ
• Good speed

Cons:

• 4x weak to Stealth Rock after Mega Evolving
• 2x weak to Stealth Rock before Mega Evolving
• Not the best speed, threats such as Lati@s and M-Metagross outspeed him
• Hates burns
• Does take up mega slot
• No reliable recovery

Talonflame @ Sharp Beak
Ability: Gale Wings
EVs: 120 HP / 252 Atk / 136 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Swords Dance
- Brave Bird
- Flare Blitz
- Roost/U-Turn

Pros:

• Gale Wings gives Brave Bird priority, allowing TFlame to sweep teams easily
• Priority Roost, improving his survivability
• Great offensive typing
• U-Turn is an option, making him usable on VoltTurn teams
• Great speed
• Can't be burned
• Great revenge killer, even without SDs up

Cons:

• 4x weak to Stealth Rock
• Easily walled by common pokemon such as Heatran, Tyranitar and Rotom-W
• Brave Bird and Flare Blitz give heavy recoil, sometimes ending his sweep
• Bad defensive stats
• Not very powerful without boosts

=============================================================

Comparison:
Pinsir is more powerful off the bat, but IMO Talon can sweep teams easier. Pinsir does have much more bulk, so he is more viable on bulky offense.
Talon is very good at beating offensive teams, while Pinsir destroys balance. Pinsir is very good, but is a little outclassed by Talon, because it has more powerful priority.
Pinsir beats balance, Talonflame beats offense

 

[Celticpride]

Archive updated. Guess I'll throw out some ideas to get this going:

• Mega Manectric vs Raikou as offensive Electrics
• Mega Sceptile vs Serperior as offensive Grass types
• Mega Slowbro vs Suicune as CroCuners
• Tentacruel vs Starmie as defensive Spinners
• Amoonguss vs Mega Venusaur as defensive Grass types
• Bisharp vs Thundurus as Defiant users
• Hippodown vs Gliscor as bulky Ground types
• Jirachi vs Bornzong as bulky Steel type pivots
• Mega Pidgeot vs Tornadus-T as fast Hurricane users (I guess?)
• Swift Swimmers (probably should be broken down into physical and special as there's quite a few of them)

Not that all those are incredibly solid, and some were taken from older variations of the thread. Just some ideas to get y'all thinking. Some of these are quite obvious, some are as simple as one shared trait that is often valuable.

 

[DarkNostalgia]

Weavile vs Mamoswine as offensive Ice-types
As always, I'll do pros and cons of each Pokemon, then pros and cons of using one over the other.

Weavile @ Life Orb
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Icicle Crash
- Ice Shard
- Knock Off
- Low Kick

Pros:

• One of the best offensive dual typings in the game in Ice and Dark.
• Blisteringly fast, outpacing threatening Pokemon such as Tornadus-T, Alakazam, and Starmie.
• Knock Off is a great utility option, crippling switch-ins such as Keldeo and Azumarill.
• Ice Shard allows Weavile to pick off faster Pokemon, such as Dragon Dance Dragonite, Rock Polish Landorus, and Choice Scarf Garchomp.
• Has Fighting-type coverage in Low Kick to deal with Pokemon such as Ferrothorn, Heatran, and Heatran.
• Can opt for Pursuit to trap Ghost- and Psychic-types such as Latios and Gengar, Swords Dance to break past some checks and counters such as Clefable and Keldeo, Poison Jab to beat Clefable and Azumarill, or Aerial Ace to get past Keldeo.
• Great late-game cleaner.

Cons:

• Checked by common Pokemon such as Azumarill, Keldeo, and Clefable.
• Typing is poor defensively, weak to common Steel-, Fighting-, Fairy-, Fire-, and Rock-types, such as Scizor, Mega Lopunny, Clefable, Talonflame, and Tyranitar.
• Weakness to Stealth Rock, mandating Defog or Rapid Spin support and limiting switch-ins.
• Frail.

Mamoswine @ Life Orb
Ability: Thick Fat
EVs: 244 Atk / 12 SpA / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
- Ice Shard
- Icicle Crash / Icicle Spear
- Earthquake
- Freeze Dry

Pros:

• Great neutral coverage with its Ice and Ground typing, resisted only by Bronzong, Rotom-W, and Rotom-H.
• Ability to check Electric-types such as Raikou and Thundurus easily.
• Thick Fat removes its weakness to Fire and makes it effectively resistant to Ice.
• Ice Shard also picks off faster foes, such as Latios and Tornadus-T.
• Freeze Dry let's Mamoswine get past bulky Water-types such as Suicune, Slowbro, and Rotom-W.
• Icicle Spear breaks past Substitute users, Focus Sash, and Multiscale.
• One of the few Ice-types not weak to Stealth Rock.
• Performes excellently against balanced builds.

Cons:

• Quite slow, outsped by common Pokemon such as Mega Metagross and Keldeo.
• Typing is bad defensively, weak to common Water-, Grass-, Steel-, and Fighting-type moves.
• Lacks good defensive stats.
• Checked by common Pokemon such as Ferrothorn and Skarmory.

Pros of using Weavile over Mamoswine:

• Weavile has more Speed, meaning it won't need to rely on Ice Shard or tank unnecessary hits to beat faster foes.
• Weavile can break past Pokemon Mamoswine struggle with, such as Bronzong and Ferrothorn due to having Fighting-type coverage.
• Knock Off has great utility.
• Weavile has its last moveslot free for other coverage or utility options such as Poison Jab or Pursuit, while Mamoswine is quite strapped for moveslots.
• Weavile is a better late-game cleaner, revenge killer.

Pros of using Mamoswine over Weavile:

• Ground-type coverage to break past Azumarill and Keldeo on switch-ins.
• Freeze Dry to break past bulky Water-types such as Alomomola.
• Performs better against balanced builds than Weavile.
• More power than Weavile.

 

[AM]

Some more ideas to tack on to Celticprides list.

• M-Metagross vs M-Scizor as offensive Steel types
• Mega Lopunny vs Mienshao as offensive Fighting types
• Hippowdon vs Tyranitar as sand setters
• Sylveon vs Clefable as Fairy type Clerics
• Gastrodon vs Seismitoad as Water Absorbers?
• M-Gallade vs M-Medicham as wall-breakers
• Crawdaunt vs Azumarill as wall-breakers / set up sweepers
• Kyurem-B vs M-Garchomp as wall-breakers

 

[heritage]

Mega Manectric vs Raikou as offensive Electric type Pokemon

Manectric @ Manectite
Ability: Lightningrod
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Thunderbolt
- Volt Switch
- Overheat
- Hidden Power Ice

Pros:

• Much faster, allowing it to outspeed Pokemon such as Tornadus-Therain and Weavile
• Fire-type coverage in Overheat to nail Pokemon such as Ferrothorn and Excadrill if they attempt to switch in
• Intimidate, making it a fantastic pivot into physical attacks
• Also has Lightningrod pre-mega, allowing it to switch into Electric-type attacks to get a +1 boost
• Hits a bit harder if Raikou if Raikou is not holding a boosting item, such as Assault Vest

Cons:

• Can't hold an item other than Manectite, which severely limits its options
• Actually a bit frailer, not factoring Intimidate, with 70 / 80 / 80 compared to 90 / 75 / 110
• Takes up a Mega slot, and the competition for that is fierce

Raikou @ Choice Specs
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Thunderbolt
- Volt Switch
- Hidden Power Ice
- Shadow Ball / Extrasensory

OR

Raikou @ Assault Vest
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Thunderbolt
- Volt Switch
- Hidden Power Ice
- Shadow Ball / Extrasensory

Pros:

• Can hold an item, allowing it to be more versatile than Manectric
• Has Shadow Ball to hit Latios and Latias more efficiently, and Extrasensory, being able to hit M-Venusaur
• A bit bulkier not factoring in items or Abilities
• Does not take up a Mega slot and fits easier onto teams

Cons:

• Much slower, being outsped by Mega Lopunny and Tornadus-Therain
• Is pressured a lot by Steel-type Pokemon
• Somewhat useless Ability that very rarely comes in handy

Conclusion:
Overall, the decision between Raikou and Mega Manectric is team specific. Mega Manectric can outspeed much faster Pokemon if your team needs it and is a fantastic pivot into physical attacks, but Raikou is bulkier on the special side. Manectric has Intimidate, Raikou can hold an item. There really is no "better" 'Mon, as each has their advantages and disadvantages, and the decision eventually falls down to specific things.

 

[urban]

Hell, I'll do another.

Mega-Lopunny vs. Mienshao as Offensive Fighting Types

Normal --> Normal/Fighting
65/76/84/54/96/105 --> 65/136/94/54/96/135

Lopunny-Mega @ Lopunnite
Ability: Scrappy
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Fake Out
- High Jump Kick
- Return
- Power-Up Punch / Ice Punch

Pros:

• Amazing base 135 speed after mega-evolving
• Perfect neutral coverage with its STABs thanks to Scrappy
• 65/94/96 bulk isn't horrible, so it can survive some hits
• STAB on Fake Out
• A few options for last moveslot in addition to those listed above: Encore, Healing Wish, Baton Pass

Cons:

• Base 105 speed before mega evolving means M-Lop has to rely on Fake Out to mega evolve safely some of the time
• Cannot hold a boosting item
• Takes up a mega slot

Fighting
65/125/60/95/60/105

Mienshao @ Life Orb
Ability: Reckless / Regenerator
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- High Jump Kick
- Knock Off
- U-turn
- Poison Jab / Stone Edge / Fake Out

Pros:

• HJK hits extremely hard thanks to STAB + LO + Reckless
• Knock Off and U-Turn are awesome utility moves
• Regenerator can be run to help with longevity
• Diverse movepool, in addition to those listed above: PuP, Swords Dance, Taunt, Baton Pass, Aerial Ace (for Chesnaught)
• Usable special attack stat means Shao can run HP Ice for things like Garchomp and Lando-T or Grass Knot for both Slowbro forms

Cons:

• 65/60/60 bulk is as bad a Mega-Beedrill....
• Base 105 speed misses several important benchmarks (Keldeo, 110s+)
• HJK is not as spammable if Ghosts are around

Comparing the two:
Mega-Lopunny and Mienshao are both potent offensive fighting types. A lot of players opt for M-Lop because of its superior speed and unresisted STABs, but Mienshao can be an option depending on a team's specific needs or if the mega slot has already been claimed. M-Lop's blazing 135 base speed lets it perform amazingly well against offensive mons/teams, but the fact that Lop can't boost its attack with an item or move outside of Power-Up Punch means that it can be walled by several pokemon often found on slower/bulkier builds - Clefable, Hippowdon, Celebi, etc. Mienshao, on the other hand, has sufficient power with LO/Reckless to secure easy 2HKOs on all of these mons at the expense of speed. Ultimately, the choice between the two boils down to two things. 1. Are you able to sacrifice your mega slot? 2. Do you need an offensive fighting type that thrives against faster or slower teams?

EDIT: Just going to edit this to keep the thread from getting too cluttered. DarkNostalgia I did mention U-Turn and Knock Off as being awesome utility moves in Shao's "pros" section. I'll add the stuff about HP Ice though.

EDIT2: firehusky I'll mention Grass Knot, buts its only notable target would be both Slowbro forms, though KO + U-Turn does around 80% to regular Slowbro. Quag is easily 2HKOed by Reckless HJK, so its not a problem.

 

[DarkNostalgia]

One thing you missed was Mienshao's access to U-turn and Knock Off, which Mega Lopunny lacks, and is especially nice for pivoting and utility in general. Regenerator is also something to use Mienshao over Mega Lopunny. Also, Hidden Power Ice on Mienshao is a pretty nice option, and deals with Garchomp (especially physically defensive variants), Landorus-T, and Gliscor.

 

[firehusky]

Another thing you missed was that mienshao gets grass knot which allows it to hit bulky grass-types such as quagsire and slowbro, OHKOing them and 2HKOing them respectively (for slowbro, SR or some prior damage is needed).

 

[Celticpride]

Grass Knot is kinda meh on Mienshao tbh. Quag is 2HKOed by your most spammable move in HJK, and as far as Slowbro goes you are probably better off just carrying U-Turn as that has more overall utility + decent enough chip damage. And Grass Knot only has a 50% chance to 2HKO after Rocks, and that's assuming very little SDef investment and some Slowbro have been running more lately because of Mega Metagross.

Also all updated, keep up the good work guys!

 

[Vengeance417]

• M-Metagross vs M-Scizor as offensive Steel types

Got it.
Mega Scizor vs. Mega Metagross as Offensive Steel Types

Mega Scizor

Stats:

70 HP/150 Atk/140 Def/65 Spa/100 SpDef/75 Spe

Typing:

Sample moveset:

Scizor-Mega @ Scizorite
Ability: Technician
EVs: 248 HP / 84 Atk / 176 SpD
Impish Nature
- Swords Dance
- Roost
- Bullet Punch
- Knock Off/Bug Bite

Pros:

• Great bulk.
• Fantastic defensive typing with eight resistances, an immunity to Toxic and only one weakness to Fire, giving Mega Scizor plenty of safe Mega Evolution and set up opportunities.
• Has reliable recovery with Roost.
• Main attack is priority Bullet Punch, making its slow base speed nearly irrelevant.
• Nice ability in Technician that boosts the power of its Bullet Punch and Bug Bite, and Technician gives them higher boosts than Megagross's Tough Claws (50% > 30%).
• Access to the coveted Knock Off.
• Has access to U-Turn for momentum and Superpower to dent opposing Steels such as Ferrothorn and Heatran, although they're not recommended on SD sets.
• Has access to Swords Dance, which boosts Attack power to considerable levels.

Cons:

• Has trouble getting past most bulky waters, steel types and Fire types.
• Compared to Mega Metagross, its offensive movepool is much shallower.
• Base 75 speed, especially uninvested, is rather slow, so unless you have enough SD's up for bullet punch to KO its foes, it can struggle verses offensive teams.
• Most of its attacks, despite some of them getting the Technician boost, have low base power and require an SD boost or two to do serious damage to the opposing team.

Mega Metagross

Stats:

80 HP/145 Atk/150 Def/105 SpA/110 SpDef/110 Spe

Typing:

Sample Moveset:

Metagross-Mega @ Metagrossite
Ability: Tough Claws
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
- Meteor Mash
- Zen Headbutt
- Hammer Arm
- Grass Knot

Pros:

• Hits the new standard speed tier of 110.
• Pretty good bulk.
• Typing has nine resistances and a Poison immunity.
• Tough Claws boosts the power of all of its contact moves, which is uses most of the time anyways.
• Meteor Mash is an incredibly spammable move which has the possibility of giving you attack boosts.
• Clear Body as normal Metagross blocks Intimidate attack drops and the much less common Sticky Web speed drops.
• Grass Knot, the only special attack that gets Tough Claws boosted, allows Mega Metagross to dent water type switchins such as Slowbro and Suicune.
• Much denser offensive movepool than Mega Scizor, with more coverage moves to utilize, such as Ice Punch, Earthquake, Thunder Punch and Rock Slide.
• Resists Stealth Rock as opposed to Mega Scizor taking neutral damage.
• Can run Agility/Rock Polish to become nightmarish versus offensive teams.

Cons:

• Very slow base 70 speed when pre-mega, giving Metagross a harder time to mega evolve than Scizor.
• Nasty weaknesses to the very common Fire, Ground, Ghost and Dark type attacks that inhabit OU, which also makes it weak to the priority moves Sucker Punch and Shadow Sneak.
• No reliable recovery.
• Can have issues with 4MSS, especially when Mega Agiligross.
• Steels such as Skarmory, Mega Scizor and Ferrothorn can trouble Megagross.
• Terrible dual STAB combo in terms of coverage.
• Its main STAB attacks in Meteor Mash and Zen Headbutt are not 100% accurate and are at risk of missing.
• Thunder Wave and paralysis in general hurts Mega Metagross more than Mega Scizor, as Scizor's already slow and uses Bullet Punch as its primary attacking move anyway.

I need to think of more things for Mega Scizor ._.'
In conclusion:

Mega Metagross and Mega Scizor play very differently in terms of being an offensive steel type. One is almost always a set up sweeper while the other is for the most part an all-out attacker. If you ask me, they're that much different from each other and are extremely fantastic in their own ways that neither can necessarily outclass the other. It all boils down to the makeup of your team. It comes down to this question: Do you want more base speed and immediate power, or do you want bulk and longevity?

 

[PureAmbition]

Got it.
Mega Scizor vs. Mega Metagross as Offensive Steel Types

Scizor-Mega @ Scizorite
Ability: Technician
EVs: 248 HP / 84 Atk / 176 SpD
Impish Nature
- Swords Dance
- Roost
- Bullet Punch
- Knock Off/Bug Bite

Pros:

• Great bulk.
• Fantastic defensive typing with eight resistances, an immunity to Toxic and only one weakness to Fire, giving Mega Scizor plenty of safe Mega Evolution and set up opportunities.
• Has reliable recovery with Roost.
• Nice ability in Technician that boosts the power of its Bullet Punch and Bug Bite, and Technician gives them higher boosts than Megagross's Tough Claws (50% > 30%).
• Access to the coveted Knock Off.
• Has access to U-Turn for momentum and Superpower to dent opposing Steels such as Ferrothorn and Heatran, although they're not recommended on SD sets.

Cons:

• Has trouble getting past most bulky waters, steel types and Fire types.
• Compared to Mega Metagross, its offensive movepool is much shallower.
• Base 75 speed, especially uninvested, is rather slow, so unless you have enough SD's up for bullet punch to KO its foes, it can struggle verses offensive teams.
• Most of its attacks, despite some of them getting the Technician boost, have low base power and require an SD boost or two to do serious damage to the opposing team.

Metagross-Mega @ Metagrossite
Ability: Tough Claws
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
- Meteor Mash
- Zen Headbutt
- Hammer Arm
- Grass Knot

Pros:

• Hits the new standard speed tier of 110.
• Pretty good bulk.
• Typing has nine resistances and a Poison immunity.
• Tough Claws boosts the power of all of its contact moves, which is uses most of the time anyways.
• Meteor Mash is an incredibly spammable move which has the possibility of giving you attack boosts.
• Clear Body as normal Metagross blocks Intimidate attack drops and the much less common Sticky Web speed drops.
• Grass Knot, the only special attack that gets Tough Claws boosted, allows Mega Metagross to dent water type switchins such as Slowbro and Suicune.
• Much denser offensive movepool than Mega Scizor, with more coverage moves to utilize, such as Ice Punch, Earthquake, Thunder Punch and Rock Slide.
• Resists Stealth Rock as opposed to Mega Scizor taking neutral damage.
• Can run Agility/Rock Polish to become nightmarish versus offensive teams.

Cons:

• Very slow base 70 speed when pre-mega, giving Metagross a harder time to mega evolve than Scizor.
• Nasty weaknesses to the very common Fire, Ground, Ghost and Dark type attacks that inhabit OU, which also makes it weak to the priority moves Sucker Punch and Shadow Sneak.
• No reliable recovery.
• Can have issues with 4MSS, especially when Mega Agiligross.
• Steels such as Skarmory, Mega Scizor and Ferrothorn can trouble Megagross.
• Terrible dual STAB combo in terms of coverage.
• Its main STAB attacks in Meteor Mash and Zen Headbutt are not 100% accurate and are at risk of missing.
• Thunder Wave and paralysis in general hurts Mega Metagross more than Mega Scizor, as Scizor's already slow and uses Bullet Punch as its primary attacking move anyway.

I need to think of more things for Mega Scizor ._.'
In conclusion:

Mega Metagross and Mega Scizor play very differently in terms of being an offensive steel type. One is almost always a set up sweeper while the other is for the most part an all-out attacker. If you ask me, they're that much different from each other and are extremely fantastic in their own ways that neither can necessarily outclass the other. It all boils down to the makeup of your team. It comes down to this question: Do you want more base speed and immediate power, or do you want bulk and longevity?

Bulk and longevity all day everyday... and got ninjaed i was already thinking this one

 

[Celticpride]

Got it.
Mega Scizor vs. Mega Metagross as Offensive Steel Types

Scizor-Mega @ Scizorite
Ability: Technician
EVs: 248 HP / 84 Atk / 176 SpD
Impish Nature
- Swords Dance
- Roost
- Bullet Punch
- Knock Off/Bug Bite

Pros:

• Great bulk.
• Fantastic defensive typing with eight resistances, an immunity to Toxic and only one weakness to Fire, giving Mega Scizor plenty of safe Mega Evolution and set up opportunities.
• Has reliable recovery with Roost.
• Nice ability in Technician that boosts the power of its Bullet Punch and Bug Bite, and Technician gives them higher boosts than Megagross's Tough Claws (50% > 30%).
• Access to the coveted Knock Off.
• Has access to U-Turn for momentum and Superpower to dent opposing Steels such as Ferrothorn and Heatran, although they're not recommended on SD sets.

Cons:

• Has trouble getting past most bulky waters, steel types and Fire types.
• Compared to Mega Metagross, its offensive movepool is much shallower.
• Base 75 speed, especially uninvested, is rather slow, so unless you have enough SD's up for bullet punch to KO its foes, it can struggle verses offensive teams.
• Most of its attacks, despite some of them getting the Technician boost, have low base power and require an SD boost or two to do serious damage to the opposing team.

Metagross-Mega @ Metagrossite
Ability: Tough Claws
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
- Meteor Mash
- Zen Headbutt
- Hammer Arm
- Grass Knot

Pros:

• Hits the new standard speed tier of 110.
• Pretty good bulk.
• Typing has nine resistances and a Poison immunity.
• Tough Claws boosts the power of all of its contact moves, which is uses most of the time anyways.
• Meteor Mash is an incredibly spammable move which has the possibility of giving you attack boosts.
• Clear Body as normal Metagross blocks Intimidate attack drops and the much less common Sticky Web speed drops.
• Grass Knot, the only special attack that gets Tough Claws boosted, allows Mega Metagross to dent water type switchins such as Slowbro and Suicune.
• Much denser offensive movepool than Mega Scizor, with more coverage moves to utilize, such as Ice Punch, Earthquake, Thunder Punch and Rock Slide.
• Resists Stealth Rock as opposed to Mega Scizor taking neutral damage.
• Can run Agility/Rock Polish to become nightmarish versus offensive teams.

Cons:

• Very slow base 70 speed when pre-mega, giving Metagross a harder time to mega evolve than Scizor.
• Nasty weaknesses to the very common Fire, Ground, Ghost and Dark type attacks that inhabit OU, which also makes it weak to the priority moves Sucker Punch and Shadow Sneak.
• No reliable recovery.
• Can have issues with 4MSS, especially when Mega Agiligross.
• Steels such as Skarmory, Mega Scizor and Ferrothorn can trouble Megagross.
• Terrible dual STAB combo in terms of coverage.
• Its main STAB attacks in Meteor Mash and Zen Headbutt are not 100% accurate and are at risk of missing.
• Thunder Wave and paralysis in general hurts Mega Metagross more than Mega Scizor, as Scizor's already slow and uses Bullet Punch as its primary attacking move anyway.

I need to think of more things for Mega Scizor ._.'
In conclusion:

Mega Metagross and Mega Scizor play very differently in terms of being an offensive steel type. One is almost always a set up sweeper while the other is for the most part an all-out attacker. If you ask me, they're that much different from each other and are extremely fantastic in their own ways that neither can necessarily outclass the other. It all boils down to the makeup of your team. It comes down to this question: Do you want more base speed and immediate power, or do you want bulk and longevity?

Mention that Scizor can boost, and something about priority in the pros for Scizor. Both are huge aspects of what makes it so good. Metagross either can't consistently boost (Meteor Mash) or has to sacrifice coverage to boost (Hone Claws). Other than that solid job!

 

[Vengeance417]

Mention that Scizor can boost, and something about priority in the pros for Scizor. Both are huge aspects of what makes it so good. Metagross either can't consistently boost (Meteor Mash) or has to sacrifice coverage to boost (Hone Claws). Other than that solid job!

Got it :)

 

[bludz]

So I know this thread isn't based on reservations -- but I have a comparison I want to do and I'm not going to do it now, yet I don't want to spend the time writing it up only to get ninja'd.

Thundurus vs Klefki as Prankster Thunder Wave users

Thundurus @ Life Orb
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Thunder Wave
- Thunderbolt
- Hidden Power [Ice]
- Focus Blast

Pros:
- Excellent speed tier outside of Prankster
- Great offensive power and coverage
- Electric is a fantastic offensive type that makes Thundurus difficult to wall
- Prankster T-Wave cripples faster threats that check Thundurus

Cons:
- Relatively frail, can't switch into setup sweepers easily
- Hard checked by most ground & electric types
- Worn down easily by Stealth Rocks and Life Orb recoil

Klefki @ Leftovers / Sitrus Berry
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Careful / Calm Nature
- Thunder Wave
- Spikes
- Play Rough / Foul Play / Flash Cannon
- Magnet Rise / Toxic

Pros:
- Great defensive typing
- Ability to Spike stack to further support the rest of the team
- Magnet Rise allows it to set up against Ground types, Toxic lets it beat walls
- Decent longevity thanks to leftovers recovery, able to switch into many setup sweepers

Cons:
- Very little offensive presence and lack of coverage
- Slow speed outside of Prankster, harder to get attacks off
- Has a harder time checking pokemon that use Substitute

Comparing The Two:
Both are at home on offensively based teams, but hyper offensive builds favor Thundurus for its ability to put on a lot of offensive pressure and sweep. Klefki fits more on bulky offense or Volt-Turn teams that rely on Spike stacking to rack up damage and don't mind its general passiveness as much. While both are great abusers of Prankster Thunder Wave, Klefki has an easier time switching into things that it checks, while Thundurus generally needs to be provided a free switch. Thundurus is generally better for taking out things that don't mind the Thunder Wave, like priority users such as Azumarill. Both are fairly weak to Sand Rush Excadrill, Mega Manectric and Raikou. Klefki usually provides a better buffer against being swept while Thundurus is more of a threat to sweep itself.

 

[Celticpride]

By all means do reservations if ya can get it done in a timely manner. I just don't want half a dozen "Reserving x vs y" posts sitting around here that don't get touched again.

 

[Vengeance417]

I'ma do another one of these, if y'all don't mind. I like doing these :)

Reserving Mega Sceptile vs Serperior as Offensive Grass types.