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-The Unreleased DW Pokemon-

Discussion in 'BW OU' started by wishes, Sep 18, 2013.

  1. Grey Knight

    Grey Knight

    May 25, 2013
    Sheer force feraligatr will get banned from ru ,and it will stay in high OU for a long time, water fall will now 1hko everything that is not a resistor and has no hp investment after sd in rain,
    but for Ru i think people could exploit sheer force and make creative mixed sets like

    Dragon Dance/Water fall/Crunch/Ice beam, with life orb and and the appropriate stat spread this thing will plow through defensive and offensive teams alike, grass types like tangrowth that are considered good counters of ferra will be unable to handle an ice beam, while the psychic types like slowking that infest the tier like slowking will cry against a boosted crunch

    but i have no idea how DW works when is it going to be released ? why is it not released yet ?
  2. asterat


    Jul 20, 2011
    metagame or Metagame. not MetaGame. Jesus it hurts my eyes.
    pom likes this.
  3. Arash


    Feb 9, 2007
    Feraligatr will want superpower or aqua jet over ice beam in OU. Aqua Jet pairs with Swords Dance nicely, but the extra water coverage is redundant.

    The DD set, however, has Waterfall as the main boosted STAB, Crunch to deal with Slowbro / Jellicent / Latias / Celebi / Starmie, and usually Superpower to be able to do something vs. Ferrothorn. Ice Beam gets boosted by Sheer Force, sure, but it can't take advantage of any attack boosts you get, and in the rain it probably won't outdamage Waterfall against things like Amoonguss and Tangrowth
  4. dwarfstar

    dwarfstar mindless philosopher

    Apr 7, 2011
    It's also notable that Ice Punch gets the same Sheer Force boost and runs off Feraligatr's excellent Attack stat. Outside of the odd Tangrowth, there aren't many notable Pokemon that take more damage from Ice Beam than they would from Ice Punch.
  5. gvmgvm40


    Jul 20, 2009
    FYI, if you are going to run Ice Beam over Ice Punch, the ideal spread would be 64 SpAtk/252 Atk/192 Speed Naive which lets you outspeed max+ base 70s (Breloom, most importantly). Coincidentally, 64 SpAtk is the minimum amount needed to get a guaranteed OHKO on Tangrowth with SR.

    I agree that Ice Punch generally superior, though: most importantly, at +1 you OHKO SpDef Amoonguss and Dragonite with less than 208 HP EVs (through Multiscale)!
  6. Chaoswalker


    Mar 20, 2010
    Aqua jet? Did we forget Feraligatr gets Agility? With a rain boost Feraligatr is excellent end game cleanup. It does over 50% to Celebi AND Ferrothorn with Waterfall. Forget all this dragon dancing, swords dancing, ice beam business. With this kind of instant power you should be playing it like a rainy version of the recently banned incarnate landorus.
    Explorer and SapphSabre777 like this.
  7. Yuttt


    Mar 22, 2013
    This is completely wrong. To outspeed necessary Scarfers at +2, like Keldeo and Lati@s, it has to run Jolly with 198 Spe EVs. Even in the rain, waterfall won't be doing much to Celebi and Ferrothorn, and definitely not 'over 50% to Celebi AND Ferrothorn with Waterfall'.

    252 Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Feraligatr Waterfall vs. 252 HP / 48+ Def Ferrothorn in rain: 99-117 (28.12 - 33.23%)
    252 Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Feraligatr Waterfall vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Celebi in rain: 143-169 (35.39 - 41.83%) -- 87.52% chance to 3HKO

    However, it can (and should) run Crunch and/or Ice punch, which will both to good damage to Celebi, but not 1HKO it. Ferrothorn, though, can take almost anything Feraligatr can throw at it, besides Superpower, which will only 2HKO with a LO.
    252 Atk Life Orb Feraligatr Superpower vs. 252 HP / 48+ Def Ferrothorn: 205-242 (58.23 - 68.75%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

    Basically, run SD, DD, or a double boosting set. Don't run Agility on its own (except maybe a late game cleaner, but that faces competition from the Torrent set).
  8. Chaoswalker


    Mar 20, 2010
    So I just noticed where I was inputting 252 into the calculator... it was NOT where the EVs were supposed to go.
  9. SapphSabre777


    Aug 30, 2012
    Yeah, even if it is impossible for Feraligatr to get Sheer Force and DD, it really isn't as good as Agility and Sheer Force (which is always legal since Agility is level up).

    Now here is where the proof comes in...

    A +2 Feraligatr with a +Speed nature and full-investment in Speed reaches a blistering Speed stat of 560, outspeeding common Scarfed Pokemon such as Lati@s and Terrakion, making it ridiculous to stop at end game.

    Then there is the calculations with a LO Jolly Feraligatr already on the field with the +2 boost (we can safely assume Waterfall and Ice Punch are moves that it would likely use):

    252 Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Feraligatr Waterfall vs 0 HP/0 Def Terrakion: 128.79% - 152.01% (Guaranteed OHKO) [no Rain]

    252 Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Feraligatr Waterfall vs 0 HP/0 Def Garchomp: 83.47% - 98.6% (2 hits to KO) [Rain]

    252 Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Feraligatr Waterfall vs 252 HP/0 Def Scizor: 83.14% - 98.55% (2 hits to KO) [Rain]

    252 Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Feraligatr Ice Punch vs 0 HP/0 Def Latios: 95.02% - 112.29% (68.75% chance to OHKO) (guaranteed KO with Stealth Rocks)

    252 Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Feraligatr Ice Punch vs 128 HP/0 Def Thundurus-T: 96.68% - 113.9% (75% chance to OHKO)

    252 Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Feraligatr Waterfall vs 252 HP/0 Def Tyranitar (+Def) : 79.7% - 94.55% (2 hits to KO) [no Rain]


    That...is a ridiculous amount of top tier Pokemon it can get rid of with OR without rain. Of course, this doesn't come without its flaws.

    Perhaps the most notable flaw to this is HOW TO SET UP. It is tricky indeed, even more so since Pokemon like Ferrothorn can not only wall Feraligatr, but inflict Paralysis, ultimately making its end-game sweep nigh but impossible.

    Even so, if Feraligatr does get the Agility off, you'd better hope that you have some sort of counter, lest Feraligatr will run all over your team...at least from my perspective.
  10. Chou Toshio

    Chou Toshio Over9000
    is an Artist Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Server Moderator Alumnus

    Aug 16, 2007
    Hey guys, here's an interesting stat for those interested in a wallbreaker + Agility Feraligatr:

    0 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Feraligatr Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 208 SpD Ferrothorn: 177-211 (50.28 - 59.94%) -- 82.81% chance to 2HKO

    Yes, Feraligatr does get Focus Blast. If you use Plopper's mixed spread of 64 SpAtk/252 Atk/192 Speed Naive, you get this calc:

    64 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Feraligatr Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 208 SpD Ferrothorn: 190-226 (53.97 - 64.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

    Almost the same damage as superpower, but without the -ATK drops (meaning you have a good chance at cleanly and easily kill Ferrothorn even through protect). While Focus Blast's accuracy sucks, it would be a decent early game move to throw around on predicted switch-ins. It also does a lot of damage to physically defensive Pokemon.

    64 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Feraligatr Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Forretress: 195-230 (55.08 - 64.97%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    252 Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Feraligatr Waterfall vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Forretress in rain: 164-192 (46.32 - 54.23%) -- 6.64% chance to 2HKO

    64 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Feraligatr Focus Blast vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Breloom: 196-231 (74.8 - 88.16%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    252 Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Feraligatr Waterfall vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Breloom in rain: 172-203 (65.64 - 77.48%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    (For those players not going to use Ice Punch)

    64 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Feraligatr Focus Blast vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Tangrowth: 221-261 (54.83 - 64.76%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    252 Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Feraligatr Ice Punch vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Tangrowth: 148-177 (36.72 - 43.92%) -- 99.56% chance to 3HKO

    It does about 20% less damage to Hippowdon under sand, and about the same damage to Skarmory in rain (ie. without Rain, Focus Blast is stronger-- and it does 2HKO the physically defensive varients).

    Definitely not saying it's ideal, but it's definitely a viable option if you wanted a mixed agility Sweeper who can also do some lethal mid-game wall breaking.

    Waterfall / Crunch / Focus Blast Feraligatr can dish out massive damage to almost any threat in the metagame. Waterfall 2HKOes Politoed, Tentacruel, and Specially Defensive Rotom under ran, obviously doing a number on Blissey/Chansey. Crunch does 70%+ to defensive Jellicent and Celebi. Focus Blast mawls ferrothorn and still lets you hit Breloom and Tangrowth hard.

    You miss out on dealing massive damage to some more obscure defensive Pokemon such as Amoongus and Gastrodon-- but you do pretty well overall I'd say.
    Last edited: Sep 20, 2013
    dwarfstar and G-Von like this.
  11. Schpoonman

    Schpoonman formerly Lord of Bays

    Oct 3, 2010
    Just did some number crunching: 252 (neutral) LO Sheer Force Waterfall in the rain outdamages Landorus' 252+ (Modest) Sheer Force LO Earth Power. Discuss.
    Halcyon. likes this.
  12. YouSeeMeRollin


    Sep 19, 2013
    Contrary Serperior:
    Serperior already has decent stats. It's faster than Gengar, has decent bulk, a little under decent attack stats, and decent HP. But what keeps it sitting in NU? The answer is not being able to use its DW Ability, Contrary. With Contrary, it could become one of the best Special sweepers in the game with Leaf Storm. It would go straight to OU with Contrary. It can take out a Tank like Donphan or Blastoise. It can outspeed Gengar and can Leaf Storm a Cloyster before it gets a Shell Smash. With Contrary, Serperior can be one of the greatest Pokemon in competitive battling.
  13. Codraroll

    Codraroll Cod Mod
    is a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Smogon Media Contributor

    Nov 6, 2011
    ^As has been said earlier in this thread, Serperior lacks the movepool to be able to pull off such a stunt. It has Leaf Storm, alright, but apart from that its only Special moves worth noting are Dragon Pulse and Hidden Power, making it a sitting duck for Steel Pokémon. Its first Leaf Storm will deal little damage if resisted (base 75 Sp.Atk isn't enough to hurt anything but those weak to its attacks), and a retaliating Bug, Flying or Fire move will make a bad dent in Serperior's HP. It is forced to run Leaf Storm repeatedly before its other moves become strong enough to sweep. Also, its lack of Special moves makes it really, really predictable. Perhaps it will gain more useful tools in Gen. VI, but until then Contrary Serperior is a gimmick at best, not enough to threaten a skillful player.
    Though, it could be fun in Doubles. A Prankster partner with Screech, Cotton Spore or other such moves could provide Serperior with a nifty boost. Parting Shot also seems like a decent Gen. VI move to support a Contrary Doubles partner.
    AstralFire and Qualna like this.
  14. YouSeeMeRollin


    Sep 19, 2013
    Cobraroll, After it pulls off 3 leaf storms, it has max Sp. Atk. Hidden Power Rock Deals with 4 Weaknesses and Poison can get smashed by a dragon pulse.
  15. Laga

    Laga Forever Grande
    is a Tiering Contributoris a Community Contributor Alumnus

    Feb 5, 2013
    As Cobraroll just emphasized, no skilled player would ever let it set up, and definitely not to +6. Anything relatively bulky can take a coverage move at +2...
    AstralFire and Qualna like this.
  16. Qualna


    Jul 20, 2013
    What you said, is what I actually said, except you said it negatively. But my point is, you actually said what I'm saying.
    You also are contradicting yourself in your argument...

    And hey, are you trying to make me laugh? Since when did Choice Scarf pokémon switch in? Aren't they supposed to be revenge killers or late game cleaners?

    Most of your sample revenge killers even said, it needs to take "these damage", but they're ubiqitous so Rapid Spin is mandatory.

    Sample scenario: You send in Serperior, assuming a hazard is up, takes damage, then proceeds to leaf storm, but the opponent is surprisingly bulky, survies the hit and strikes back with a weak attack, you finsih it off, and the scarfed mon comes in.

    Now, you might say, that "They have to sacrifice a pokémon!" But you must remember that Serperior wont be killing a thing unless it's se or already low on health.

    And what makes you think it'll be ubers? That's the best joke I've ever heard today! :)
    Sorry for such an attitude but we aren't talking about ubers here.

    Celebi is still much better because it has more offensive presnece and unpredictable.

    And you just made Serperior look good like he's unstoppable, that's true but it needs massive team support to be unstoppable. It's like Agility Chinchou of LC. "Looks unstoppable but needs massive team support to be unstoppable."

    EDIT: The only Unrelased DW pokémons you will use at ubers are Feraligtr and Chandelure.

    PS If Celebi isn't your cup of tea, Breloom is also a setup sweeper that competes with Serperior, the irony I am the one telling the guy with Breloom's namesake.
    Last edited: Sep 23, 2013
  17. BROloom


    Oct 23, 2010
    I feel like you missed everything I said. First of all, I ran calculations on EVERYTHING I stated, I was pointing out how none of those scarfers are clean counters (countering under pretty much any condition), and yes, can come in a finish up (their job as a scarfer, hurrdurr) but that does NOT make it a reliable counter, since they can't reliably take that hit and KO. Hell, in your "simple scenario", Serperior has K.O'd one pokemon, in your "scenario" it has done its job, and your only counter is a revenger killer that Serperior can now switch out from. You mentioned how I'd say "they have to sacrifice a pokemon", but your disclaimer is that it won't kill a thing unless it's SE or already low on health... Sorry, what? How does your precious set-up Celebi kill anything? Oh that's right, it either forces a switch to get a free Nasty Plot, or the pokemon does little damage to Celebi while it sets up. Guess what, the EXACT same thing applies in getting Serperior to set up, except, as you kindly pointed out, Serperior can come in and revenge kill something slower AND get a free +2 boost! Making it even EASIER to set up with Serperior.

    Oh by the way, the reason I mentioned the scarfers "switching in", is because for a pokemon to be an effective counter, a pokemon has to be able to switch in, otherwise it's not a counter, it's a revenger killer, two completely different things, and we we're talking about what can counter Serpierior, not what can revenge kill it.

    Secondly, I said that he WON'T be uber, go read what I said, I said "Serperior ISN'T going to be an unmatched threat going instantly into ubers" and that "nobody will claim" that he would be uber, because he won't be, and it's stupid to think he would be. You see that word "isn't" there? It specifically points out how I don't think he'll be uber, ever, so either read more carefully, or don't try and imply I said something I didn't.

    Thirdly, I've posted about how with leaf storm, most pokemon are afraid to switch in and take that, while they wouldn't care less about switching into a nasty plot, and Celebi's base speed problems, but if you just want to keep saying "Celebi is still better" with no backing up to that claim, then go ahead, but it doesn't look good on your behalf.

    The same problems exists with Breloom, I love him, but as a set-up sweeper he has 2 moves taken up with Spore and Sword Dance, with the 3rd being Mach Punch. If anything outspeeds Breloom (not difficult) and resists fighting attacks, he can be easy to stop, all that said pokemon has to do is switch in on a SD, outspeed base 70 speed, and resist a Mach Punch and kill it with its paper thin defences, where as in Serperiors case, if you switch in, you're still taking a leaf storm at the minimum, and have more to worry about another 3 moves that could completely ruin your day, all while having decent defences to back it up.

    Here's the deal, you listed pokemon that "wall" Serperior in your first post, I did calcs to show how they don't "wall" him, they only wall him if they he doesn't take HP fire, which I'll remind you, you said was pointless to take because he's meant to take on water pokemon, which is moronic, why take coverage moves at all on your pokemon? Oh right, so they don't get walled. You also said that "it's outclassed by Celebi as a (naturally) bulky boosting Grass-type", which isn't true because of Celebi's naturally lower speed, making it easy to take out, especially when with Celebi, all a pokemon only has to do is switch in to a nasty plot and out speed a base 100, where as with Serperior, it has to come in on a base 140 STAB attack to begin with, and then outspeed a base 113. You said "Celebi boasts more immediate offensive presence, a wider movepool", I'm pretty sure being able to hit off a 140 base attack and boost at the same time is more of an immediate offensive presence, and that while Celebi has more options to choose from, it has to have nasty plot+giga drain, then two moves to help it, Serperior can have Leaf storm + 3 moves to help it. The only place Celebi shines over Serperior as a set up is the choice of sets it can run, thus being more unpredictable, where as Serperiors will always be a contrary set.

    As I said, I don't think Serperior will be unstoppable, that is not what I'm saying, I'm saying that a contrary Serperior is frickin scary, and that it isn't just "outclassed" by celebi, not by a long shot.
    MikeDawg likes this.
  18. Qualna


    Jul 20, 2013
    I quoted some part of your post that needs fixing...

    First, saying "Serperior isn't going to be ubers blah blah" is giving me impression the Serperior can be of uber quality or "He's so dangerous he is going to ubers", take note, you even said "instantly", which means you are saying that he will go to ubers although not instantly. Maybe that was just some misunderstaning, but really, Ubers is a tier where all Pokémon are broken, Serperior is too weak to be used at Uber tier. No kidding here but using Contraty Serperior is as laughable as using Solar Power Charizard at ubers.

    Second, it's funny how Spore is considered to "take moveslot", but that's what actually makes him so dangerous, and so good.

    Third, the Hidden Powers, I mentioned at my first post that depending on the Hidden Power he runs, he will be walled by a (very) common Pokémon, it's contradicting that your Serperior kept changing "Hidden Powers" where it can only have one, sure, you can say "they have to be wary", but that also applies to Scizor against Alakazam, Ferrothorn against Kyurem-Black, Celebi against Keldeo, Heatran against Volcarona, and the list goes on and on. Take note that the Pokémons I mentioned are considered to be good checks against the said enemy, so the same goes here, the common Pokémon that walls his STAB and Dragon Pulse are good checks, and even you carry the correct HP to snag the kill against his first check, the enemy probably still has the correct check, unless you saved Serperior late game ofc.
  19. Haruno

    Haruno Too cute to kill people :]
    is a Tutoris a Tiering Contributor Alumnus

    Jun 29, 2012
    So in other words contrary serperior is very viable if sweep uses it? I mean shrang/sweep/hack had fun and were pretty successful with their charizard teams. So I have no idea what this statement means.
    youngjake93 and Pikachuun like this.
  20. BROloom


    Oct 23, 2010
    Again, I don't think Serperior will EVER be banned to ubers, he'd be a strong threat in OU, but not unstoppable or something that would centralize the metagame. I don't know how clear I have to make that clear, I don't think he would be banned to ubers ever, just a strong OU threat.

    Secondly, you're right, spore is what makes Breloom so good, without it, he wouldn't be as amazingly impressive as he is, but that is showing how the amazingness of spore covers for his other vast weaknesses (like his very sub par speed and weak defences). Spore, as good as it is and as required as it is, does take a move slot, leaving him with two attacking moves, one being Mach Punch. Serperior doesn't need a sleep move to succeeded (though spore wouldn't be amazing to have), and his set up move is also his main attacking move, leaving three other moves for coverage.

    Third, the Serperior is set idea I mentioned NEVER changed hidden power, it was always HP fire, as that takes out all the counters you listed bar Heatran, which I said would have to worry about the rare HP ground, but I still acknowledged Heatran would generally be the best counter for it. If he runs HP fire, he is not walled by very common pokemon, just Heatran. Almost the pokemon you listed would not be good checks, because they cannot take a boosted HP fire, which any Serperior would run, unless it was made to lure out Heatrans.
  21. M BLADE


    Jul 6, 2008
    I think Contrary Serperior is one of, if not THE best late game sweeper for OU.
    Slap Choice Scarf on it, and anything that doesn't 4X resists grass will have to take two attacks from it (unless you're running Scarf Starmie or something)... i believe ALMOST anything that has taken some damage will perish to 2 Leaf Storms in a row, leaving you with a +4 scarfed Serperior... now that's something... and it can go even stronger, as a +6 Leaf Storm will cut through almost everything.
    The problem is that everything resists grass attacks, or so it seems.

    Another good thing is that Serperior doesn't need Life Orb that much. For a sweeper, that's huge; something trying to stop it with status? Lum berry. Need some longevity? Leftovers. Trying to lure something? well, there's 5 weaknesses to pick up and use those nice Berries to cut weaknesses once (although the movepool is so bad that it rarely will find opportunities for that). Spamming Leaf Storm is all you need to get stronger.

    I could go on with the pros and also with the cons, but i'm sleepy so who cares, Serperior is top (maybe mid) OU material and laughable in Ubers, ok
  22. Qualna


    Jul 20, 2013
    It has a niche, but still a terrible choice, is what I meant. Same goes for most other starters.
    Actually, many are not even worth considering.

    BROloom I only said that saying "serperior won't be ubers" is giving the guy you're talking to an impression he is that good, but honestly, I already said it and will say it again, it's just a little misunderstanding, ignore it.
    Last edited: Oct 4, 2013
  23. Nysyr


    Sep 26, 2011
    Fire/Dragon is unresisted coverage for Serp, apart from Heatran and only due to it's ability. Leafstorm/HP fire/Dpulse is a given for its set. It shouldn't even need to run a scarf set since it has passable defences and a high speed stat. Even with HP fire it still outspeeds even Tornadus.
  24. nyttyn

    nyttyn Nueeeeeeeeeeeeen!
    is a Forum Moderatoris a CAP Contributor

    Sep 8, 2010
    The problem with Serperior, that has been stated time, and time, and time again - it is, at base, weaker then piss.

    It can't even OHKO, at +0, the frailest pokemon in OU.

    I mean, we could go on for days about why Serperior sucks, but that's all you really need to know.

    And even fully set up, should you somehow manage to get to +6...
    Again, weak as hell. It can't even guaranteed OHKO sub kyurem-b without rocks, and that's only a resist.

    And to avoid being murdered by any choice user, it needs to have a choice scarf, which means that it's not getting past defensive titans like Ferrothorn or Heatran (The later of which is a complete, 100% hard stop anyway)...

    so yeah it's just piss. Completely useless without a boost, too slow to risk not running a choice scarf, resists no priority (and is weak to one of it), half of OU resists grass, we could go on for days about the numerous ways in which Serperior is awful.
  25. Arcticblast

    Arcticblast Never did anything about Swagger
    is a Smogon Social Media Contributor Alumnusis a Super Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Server Moderator Alumnusis a Past SPL Champion

    Nov 29, 2008
    Friendly reminder that performance in Ubers is entirely unrelated to OU tiering decisions. Deoxys-N is a sack of shit in Ubers (mostly because it is overshadowed by its counterparts) yet was still banned from OU for being too powerful.
    NixHex likes this.

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