All Gens The "What if" thread - Topic #66 : Physical-Special split in ADV

i always found serperior to be extremely underwhelming in DW OU though gene and chandy being legal certainly had something to do with that.
Yeah, it was those two that were the big threats along with Ditto in those days. But even then, luring then trapping was effective at dealing with both and you'd clean with Serperior with the steels out the way.

Different story here though since those two are not even factors in standard OU. No sun teams either, which it also didn't like.
 

phantom

Banned deucer.
Sheer Force Feraligatr in rain is stupidly powerful. 2HKOing Ferrothorn with a +2 Waterfall under rain and OHKOing Skarmory is insane. I think a nice catch is the newfound viability in Dragon Dance sets cause it basically functions like a stronger Gyarados w/o the SR weakness. It's very much possible to stop it from setting up though and you don't have to bend over backwards to contain it when it does set up imo, so it'll probably just be another pain in the ass for certain bulky builds and just be a slight nuisance to everything else. I think it'll fit in okay in BW, at least in OU.

I think Serperior would be broken (or at the very least, top dog) in OU b/c of its initial Speed and flexibility in its 4th slot (glare for scarf rachi/heatran, taunt for chansey, etc). Not a whole lot of counterplay that comes to mind, especially when you pair it with a trapper. Magnezone seems cool, but I think Gothitelle could pair well with it too so it can get rid of Amoonguss or something which I would expect to see more on sand balance builds to try and put handle on Serperior. It does have a decent chunk of soft checks though, like Volcarona and Dragonite, so who knows.

Volt Absorb Raikou and Water Absorb Suicune would be kinda neat, but I don't think they'll change much, and ST Chandelure is just unquestionably OP.

Lightning Rod Zapdos is the most interesting though since it offers an alternative hard check to Jirachi that isn't a Ground. Sipping a Volt Switch from Rotom-W and firing off a +1 Thunder/Thunderbolt at ttar seems really fun too. I could definitely see it picking up some usage and being it bit more common on certain rain builds. I think out of all of the unreleased DW abilities, this is by far the best one b/c it's not overbearing and it really does have the potential to increase team variability.
 
I think DD would be the way to go on Feraligatr because of the speed. At +1, LO Superpower does 95% minimum to Ferrothorn (yeah the attack drop sucks, but you still got the speed and Sheer Force) and Low Kick also does a lot. In the rain, Gator doesn't even need the +1 to 2HKO a lot of the stuff that don't resist Waterfall. Strong as hell.
 
L-rod zappy might compete with Thund-T for a team slot Thund-T is more offensive and a little faster with 101 base speed and has more raw offensive power and better coverage moves in grass knot and focus blast but Zapdos is bulkier and has as access to 50% recovery in Roost to let it last longer and also has options that Thund-T can't use like heat wave for ferrothorn while thundy must rely on focus blast or going mixed with hammer arm to hit it with.
 

Typhlito

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Great! So here comes the first topic for 2016. What if Shadow ball exists in RBY?

tumblr_n6idbwwnGJ1rpn9eno1_500.gif


This is one of of those occasions when something has been introduced into the anime before it was actually a thing. But what if it was? In this scenario, any pokemon that could learn the move is able to use it and like in gen 2-3, it will be a physical type attack. Also, ghost type moves will be able to hurt psychic types. So will new threats appear while old threats fade in this metagame or will things stay mostly the same? You tell me!
 

Isa

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Gengar Shadow Ball vs. Starmie: 149-176 (46.1 - 54.4%) -- 57.8% chance to 2HKO

Gengar Thunderbolt vs. Starmie: 165-194 (51 - 60%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

rip
 

p2

Banned deucer.
it 2hkos alakazam and jynx and ohkos both with crits but it doesn't sound like a great option, at least it would be better than night shade.

Gengar Shadow Ball vs. Alakazam: 205-241 (65.4 - 76.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Gengar Shadow Ball vs. Jynx: 229-270 (68.7 - 81%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

you're still not doing a ton of damage to slowbro and tbolt is the better option against it and starmie, so rip.

i suppose sd mew would like that in ubers, but eh.
 
Only a few differences, including Persian being able to hit Gengar now, pretty cool. Especially counting a SpDef drop. But that's pretty much it. Jolteon also does more to Gengar than Thunderbolt, but meh. Does less than Pin Missle on Exeggutor.

Weezing could use it. Not much to hit though because of its existing coverage moves.

With paralysis support, Flareon can throw them around and go for some drops.
 
Hypno could kiiiind of use it (I've experimented with a similar buff but it really requires an attack boost to actually get much done). Sounds pretty nice for Persian though?

If we're talking BL/UU (whatever you want to call it) then I'm guessing you'd see a pretty significant impact there
 
Mew's Shadow Ball

(30.1 - 35.6%) -- 33.7% chance to 3HKO

Better than anything it had previously but Mewtwo can just start running barrier if it becomes an issue, the way to beat Mewtwo is still to freeze it
 

Jorgen

World's Strongest Fairy
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Flareon would love Shadow Ball for Starmies. Other than that, it's a pretty niche move, although Alakazam might use it to nail other Zams hard. Hypno's SB is also a 2HKO on Zam most of the time.
 

Typhlito

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Not the impact I was hoping for but cool. Next up we have what if gen 4 evolutions existed in GSC?



In this example, any pokemon that has received an additional evolution in DPP will exist in GSC. That means the following pokemon are included...

Ambipom, Mismagius, Honchkrow, Weavile, Magnezone, Lickilicky, Rhyperior, Tangrowth, Electivire, Magmortar, Togekiss, Yanmega, Leafeon, Glaceon, Gliscor, Mamoswine, and Porygon-Z. As for their movepools, we can keep it simple and give them no new moves with the exception of glaceon and leafeon who can use blizzard/ice beam and razor leaf/synthesis.

It's a big list so how would these pokemon change the meta? Would new threats appear while current threats fade or will the meta be mostly unaffected? You tell me!
 

Isa

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mismagius, rhyperior mamoswine and GLACEON would be super cool, porygon-z too probably but typing is unfortunate. leafeon might have a niche. weavile cries over special/physical split :(
 
I love piloswine so I'll talk about mamo. you don't have to be a fan to see that it would be absolutely amazing though. +20 speed allows it to outrun a host of shit such as ttar, vap, machamp, exegg, cloy, skarm, umbreon, smeargle, p2 and clefable. it shakes its speed tie with muk and now ties meganium/nite.

+20 hp isn't a /huge/ difference, takes about ~3-4% less from the calcs I did, but in practice that'd probably be really nice. what does make a more noticeably difference is its attack getting raised by 30, so its earthquakes shatter shit, and it's got the speed + typing to make use of them way better than the equally powerful rhydon. mamo takes absolute pittance from hp ices, and hp water is a 3hko on it as opposed to death against rhydon. it's topped off with a nice +10 boost to its spatk, letting it really lay down some hurt on eq resists with its ice stab. mamo would make a great pokemon in gsc.

growth glaceon would be insane. highest spatk in ou, great typing on stab, solid physical bulk, passable special bulk. only real safe counters to mono-ice beam are some starmies, cune and vap, but glac can just throw on hp electric if it's so inclined, even though this does cut into its bulk. probably best to restalk though. it even outruns ttar. granted, it is not horribly eager to switch into much (gengar?), but offensively it is one amazing pokemon.

rhyperior is nuts. +10 to hp/atk/def/sdef... even spatk gets a boost for the odd fire blast. yikes.

mismagius' physical bulk remains the same, but the awesome +30 sdef boost makes it much more resilient to pursuit, thunders, exeggutor psychic and starmie/cloyster surfs alike. +30 spatk is nothing to scoff at either for its own thunders. its 105 base speed means it outruns a ton of shit now, so it can get a last-ditch perish song off on guys like zapdos, tenta, zard, kanga and even though it almost certainly won't matter in any scenario I can imagine, miltank. not tying with nidoking/hera is also kinda nice.

perhaps more on the others later
 

Jorgen

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Ambipom: too frail to be worth it. maybe an OK BPer, but there's better for sure.

Mismagius: tankier Missy is always a plus. after Protect it fails to be 2HKOed by Tyranitar Crunch. BKC already mentioned the benefits of the Speed; Nido and Zapdos are two key advantages there. Stronger Thunder that guarantees a 3HKO on Suicune (provided they all hit of course) is also a plus. Same set as Misdreavus currently has.

Honchkrow: Unfortunately its bulk blows. That said, it's a Pursuiter with decent Special Attack that Egg can't touch and Starmie fails to 2HKO, albeit at the cost of being scared shitless of Gengar and Misdreavus Thunders. Probably not worth it. Drill Peck/Pursuit/Thief/HP Dark might be the set?

Weavile: Enough SpA to 3HKO Zapdos with Ice Beam now. That's a plus. Still mostly ass though.

Magnezone: Magneton that actually avoids being 3HKO by most Surfs and has a Thunder that's stronger than Zapdos'. This looks like fun. Especially for passing Growths against a team that uses MonoLax. It doesn't really bend the meta to its will or anything like that, but it's a decent mon with a decent niche that fits well in the existing meta. Same sets as Magneton currently has, probably a little more likely to run Sleep Talk than SubWave, though.

Lickilicky: Swords Dance Lickilicky is dangerous as shit. If you thought Tenta was bad, wait til you see this beast that can stay in on basically anything. Actually gets STAB too, unlike Mew in Ubers, although it just misses out on the all-important base 55 speed tier. Frustration/Earthquake/Fire Blast/Swords Dance is the set. Maybe Bslam or DE as the STAB, idk.

Rhyperior: Basically a better Rhydon. Rhydon's already good. The extra stats mean Rhyperior has a chance to 3HKO Lax unboosted and fails to get 3HKO by Lax's EQ in return. Not being 2HKOed by Gengar Ice Punch, guaranteeing that Zapdos HP Water doesn't OHKO, and having an EQ that can actually OHKO Raikou are also nice bonuses. As are a Rock Slide that can 3HKO Heracross and a Flamethrower that 3HKOs Skarmory (to avoid Fblast PP woes) or a Fire Blast that has a realistic chance to OHKO Forretress. Probably more likely to run coverage than standard Rhydon right now; you could see something like EQ/RS/ZapCannon/Curse, or if a team needs a Phazer for Mismag/Umb, EQ/RS/FB/Roar. SubCurse is also a more realistic option with Rhyperior.

Tangrowth: Special Bulk blows, so it can't tank Electrics like Meganium can. It also misses out on Leech Seed, so that nice Physical bulk can't really be used effectively. Tangrowth stinks.

Electivire: Misses out on Buzz's good Speed tier (outspeeds Zapper and Miltank), but that's merely inconvenient. It more than makes up for it with a mighty Attack stat. After a meditate, it 3HKOs Raikou with CC and 2HKOs Snorlax. There's also a realistic chance to OHKO Steelix with a +1 CC crit after Spikes damage. This is a dangerous mixed attacker that GSC isn't really well-equipped to handle. Thunder/IP/CC/Meditate.

Magmortar: It's kinda like a Moltres with better coverage and the ability to survive two Zapdos Thunders (let alone one). Unfortunately, it still doesn't deal with bulky waters too well (Tpunch won't 3HKO), its Speed tier is unfortunate (outsped by Nidoking and Suicune), and its Physical bulk is pitiful (still 2HKOed by Snorlax DE most of the time). There is something to be said for Cross Chop on something with a face-melting SunnyBlast, though; Tyranitar utterly fails to check it, which is how a lot of teams actually handle Moltres. Bulky waters aren't absolutely everywhere, ya know... Fblast/Sub/CC/SunnyDay.

Togekiss: Ew. No Attack stat to speak of, no Special STABs, no Serene Grace... most it has is Charm, which just isn't enough.

Yanmega: LOL this thing is garbage.

Leafeon: Pretty similar to Tangrowth, actually. Only it doesn't even get Swords Dance. Better Defense stat than Umb is nice, but its HP means its Physical bulk is still worse. I guess it has a tiny niche in being able to Charm Machamp, do enough damage with Frustration to deter DrumLax (Frustration does damage on par with Miltank Body Slam), and if it's like the other Stoned Eeveelutions, actually having Roar to deal with CurseDrum variants and Vaporeon. Frustration/Charm/Roar/Synthesis would probably be the set.

Glaceon: Everyone seems to be creaming themselves over Glaceon. I think it's good but pretty limited. Better Physical bulk than Vap for tanking Laxen a little better, but no AA to let it set up in its face. Isn't countered by Electrics but still can't really switch into them. Beats Egg but has a little trouble switchin in. Loses to Vap. Puts very little pressure on Cloy to Explode, unlike Vap (unless it runs coverage, but no ST is pretty lame in terms of survivability and availability). Can't set up on Ttar/Steelix. Overall probably OU, but between Vap and Espeon in terms of usefulness imo. IB/Growth/Rest/ST

Gliscor: Gligar's main issue has always been its movepool. Gliscor's better stats therefore don't mean a whole lot. That said, its EQ is actually respectable and it's no longer OHKOed by Hidden Power Ices, so it can actually threaten to Counter them back. EQ/Screech/Counter/Rest is probably the set. Maybe Toxic or Thief over Screech or Rest, idk.

Mamoswine: Rhydon-like Attack, a Speed tier that puts it above Vap and Exeggutor, the same Zapdos-tanking action we love about Pilo, and an Ice Beam that can (rarely) 2HKO Zapdos and does respectable damage to Skarm. Yep, this thing's a beast. EQ/IB/Curse/Rest (Curse is nice because it outpaces Lax at +1!!!!)

Porygon-Z: Definitely something to be said for a mixed attacker with Physical STAB stronger than Nidoking EQ, base 90 Speed, enough SpA to 3HKO Cune with Tbolt, and instant recovery. DE/IB/Tbolt/Recover. Setting up with Curse probably isn't super great because STAB Thunders from legends are likely to 2HKO (although that Speed means outpacing Lax at +1 and getting an extra hit off on Umb). Maybe Sharpen is a thing to outspeed Suicunes at +1?
 
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cookie

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lol gliscor is still garbage, zapdos and skarmory just sit in front of it (it can't even WW them out)

lickilicky is terrifying: base 80 SAtk Fire Blast is going to make short work of Skarmory/Steelix. It can even run Surf which beats Rhyperior up and still destroys Steelix.
 
lickilicky is basically a snorlax-lite it can run similar curse and drum sets to can but it also gets access to swords dance via Lickitung if you feel like going that route you probably could use it to try to soften up answers to snorlax.

just one question does licky get explosion? because thats the only way it'll be better than snorlax under this scenario.
 

xJoelituh

Banned deucer.
lickilicky is basically a snorlax-lite it can run similar curse and drum sets to can but it also gets access to swords dance via Lickitung if you feel like going that route you probably could use it to try to soften up answers to snorlax.

just one question does licky get explosion? because thats the only way it'll be better than snorlax under this scenario.
It shouldn't get it, it's a +4gen TM, and doesn't learn it by level up neither egg move.

And I don't see any reason to use it instead of lax, so probably it would be UU.

The other mons, the only one that I see cool is Rhyperior and Magmortar in some extend.
Does Electabuzz learn Curse? Because I think Electivire would get it and make it worth
 
everything that learns moves from TMs gets curse in gen 2 as it's a TM in the gen 2 games so everything that learns from TMs has it.
 
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Jorgen

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Dudes. It gets Swords Dance. That's not trivial. Imagine Lax being able to glitch drum whenever it wants. Way better reward:risk ratio with swords dance than BD.
 

cookie

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ehh, snorlax's attack is higher so after a curse it's only 11% weaker. It only outruns Snorlax/Marowak, and has less bulk overall. It does hit harder with Fire Blast though, so it's kind of a glass cannon version of Snorlax (though only relatively, licki is still quite bulky).
 

Typhlito

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Well that sounds like it would be a cool thing to try. Anyway, next up we have... what if choice scarf existed in ADV?



So we know the lack of choice scarf made speed pretty much absolute outside the use of berries and agility. But what if that was not the case? Would the item change the way adv is played or will it not be that big of a deal? Will new threats rise while old threats fade? You tell me!
 

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