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All Gens The "What if" thread - Topic #66 : Physical-Special split in ADV
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Been awhile, but damn. Cool topic, this one. Abomasnow should be tough to deal with if given free turns. Imagine throwing up a Substitute. You won't even be able to muscle through with a Steel right away without taking an extra turn of Leech Seed damage. Jirachi looks like the overall safest switch-in in OU, and threatens with Fire Punch (it needs SpA EVs though because Abomasnow could go Specially Defensive). It heals itself and the rest of the team, useful for the Leftovers removal and Spikes.
Tentacruel looks somewhat interesting and could go up in usefulness against it as a switch with high SpDef, Rapid Spin, and Liquid Ooze. The option of Focus Punch is a really good point, and he resists that (as well as HP Fire for your own Abomasnow). Big target for Dugtrio, as BKC said would be a focal point, so it would have to watch for doubles. The main problem is actually threatening Abomasnow, and Physical SB or moderate HP Fire isn't the greatest. Just a utility option mainly.
Ludiculo for a niche option to bring along to adjust for the meta? Neutral to the four types, immune to Leech Seed, and focused on Rain Dance to take back weather for a moment?
Tentacruel looks somewhat interesting and could go up in usefulness against it as a switch with high SpDef, Rapid Spin, and Liquid Ooze. The option of Focus Punch is a really good point, and he resists that (as well as HP Fire for your own Abomasnow). Big target for Dugtrio, as BKC said would be a focal point, so it would have to watch for doubles. The main problem is actually threatening Abomasnow, and Physical SB or moderate HP Fire isn't the greatest. Just a utility option mainly.
Ludiculo for a niche option to bring along to adjust for the meta? Neutral to the four types, immune to Leech Seed, and focused on Rain Dance to take back weather for a moment?
Awesome! Here's our next topic. What if the Wish Cresselia/BP Starter hoax was a real thing in DPP?
So apparently there was a fake event back then that was advertising the release of wish cresselia along with baton pass on the three starters. However when the date for the event arrived, everyone found out it was just a hoax. But what if that event was actually a thing? So in this scenario, Cresselia would have access to wish while the three starters will have baton pass. How would this move affect how they are used if at all? Would any of them become more dominant in the meta thanks to it? How would other threats react to these moves? You tell me!
So apparently there was a fake event back then that was advertising the release of wish cresselia along with baton pass on the three starters. However when the date for the event arrived, everyone found out it was just a hoax. But what if that event was actually a thing? So in this scenario, Cresselia would have access to wish while the three starters will have baton pass. How would this move affect how they are used if at all? Would any of them become more dominant in the meta thanks to it? How would other threats react to these moves? You tell me!
Dance/Plot Pass Infernape oml...imagine threatening out your resident Ape bitch as it sets up a +2 on your bulky water and passes to a kingdra/dragonite/shaymin/etc
Defensive and Specs Empoleon could make use of Baton Pass to preserve momentum on predicted switches I guess? Doesn't seem to have room for it, though.
Not sure how much this helps Cress. Wish didn't base its healing off of the user's HP until Gen V, so it's not going to fully heal fat things that lack non-Lefties recovery. Having a healing move not gimped by weather is cool, at least.
Not sure how much this helps Cress. Wish didn't base its healing off of the user's HP until Gen V, so it's not going to fully heal fat things that lack non-Lefties recovery. Having a healing move not gimped by weather is cool, at least.
I can't really see baton pass changing much. Most of infernapes checks are faster than it anyway and at +2 it OHKOs the majority of the metagame. It's rarely gonna BP out.
Empoleon might find room on Baton Pass teams it's ability to resist CB crunch from tyranitar could be useful to them. Still rarely a thing.
I don't really see what Torterra is passing.
If you want these Mons to support your team, you just give them stealth rocks.
Wish Cress would be very difficult to kill. The problem is that a wish protect set has awful coverage options and can't really kill anything. Maybe a bolt beam set with charge beam. But that's so vulnerable to Scizor and T-tar. Wish, CM, Psychic, Hp Fire on Dugtrio teams might see play. I can't see it breaking the metagame, but it would probably get some use.
Empoleon might find room on Baton Pass teams it's ability to resist CB crunch from tyranitar could be useful to them. Still rarely a thing.
I don't really see what Torterra is passing.
If you want these Mons to support your team, you just give them stealth rocks.
Wish Cress would be very difficult to kill. The problem is that a wish protect set has awful coverage options and can't really kill anything. Maybe a bolt beam set with charge beam. But that's so vulnerable to Scizor and T-tar. Wish, CM, Psychic, Hp Fire on Dugtrio teams might see play. I can't see it breaking the metagame, but it would probably get some use.
I remember the talk of that going around a long time ago. Them good old days.
Better than Moonlight overall. I hate the strat, but the first obvious thing would be Wish+Protect. Kills moveslots though. Should be fun for it and the team to run the move with Screens.
I don't know. There are faster or bulkier passers than Ape. You can only run two attacks. If you ran a third, you probably wouldn't even have to pass off because of solid coverage. If the Water is weakened, would it really matter? Ape could/should be able punch through it, depending on what boost you went with. It's Ape, he don't need to pass to be scary. Dry passing isn't an option either.
Empoleon can really only be considered for a chain. Unique typing for it, I guess.
Torterra has Swords Dance, Stockpile, and Amnesia. Maybe it can play around in UU.
The latter two can dry pass of course.
Better than Moonlight overall. I hate the strat, but the first obvious thing would be Wish+Protect. Kills moveslots though. Should be fun for it and the team to run the move with Screens.
I don't know. There are faster or bulkier passers than Ape. You can only run two attacks. If you ran a third, you probably wouldn't even have to pass off because of solid coverage. If the Water is weakened, would it really matter? Ape could/should be able punch through it, depending on what boost you went with. It's Ape, he don't need to pass to be scary. Dry passing isn't an option either.
Empoleon can really only be considered for a chain. Unique typing for it, I guess.
Torterra has Swords Dance, Stockpile, and Amnesia. Maybe it can play around in UU.
The latter two can dry pass of course.
Sorry for the delay. Here is our next topic. What if Goodra existed in BW?
With perma weather being a big part of bw, its only a matter of time before someone asks a question like this. So in this scenario, goodra would receive gooey, hydration, and sap sipper. All three abilities seem to fit very well in oras even with its limited weather but how would it fair against other weather and non weather teams? Would it fit right in with the other ou mons or would it have a hard time keeping up? You tell me!
With perma weather being a big part of bw, its only a matter of time before someone asks a question like this. So in this scenario, goodra would receive gooey, hydration, and sap sipper. All three abilities seem to fit very well in oras even with its limited weather but how would it fair against other weather and non weather teams? Would it fit right in with the other ou mons or would it have a hard time keeping up? You tell me!
The obvious one, Hydration, can allow for some incredible Special walling (if you leave opposing Dragons out the picture). A maxed out one can take Analytic Starmie anytime (with rocks down), and start healing.
Would it really be that great in OU outside of weather? Without heavy play from its abilities, it doesn't seem like it can do much with that average Speed Defense. I'd use it for Hydration abuse only as you dupe something like Breloom anyway with it.
Would it really be that great in OU outside of weather? Without heavy play from its abilities, it doesn't seem like it can do much with that average Speed Defense. I'd use it for Hydration abuse only as you dupe something like Breloom anyway with it.
Goodra is like a love letter to some of the more ridiculous mechanics in VGC 2013, specifically Politoed and rain. It absolutely shits on the Poltioed + Ludicolo pair. The usual side mons rain tends to bring like Scizor and Breloom can dent it, but they certainly aren't the best answers. I think it forces those sort of teams to run a Latios or a Hydreigon just to break through it. The only other specially defensive dragon-types in that format are things like Latias and Latios and Scizor deals with them handily, so Goodra certainly shakes things up.
Goodra would be amazing on rain teams, which were dominant in Gen 5 OU. It also wouldn't have to worry about those damned Fairies, so it could sling around 140 BP STAB Draco Meteors with ease. Thanks to Fire Blast and Focus Blast, it could also check Pokémon Rain teams struggled with, like Ferrothorn and Celebi. Compared to MixNite, it would have higher Special Attack but worse Attack and no Hurricane or Roost. But with Hydration, Rest would basically heal all its health for free.
Goodra @ Leftovers
Ability: Hydration
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
- Curse
- Outrage
- Earthquake
- Rest
In Rain, this set could be very difficult to take down. Curse boosts Goodra's Attack, and patches up its low Defence. Think Curselax 2.0. Outrage is a very powerful STAB, which back then nothing was immune to. And I think (not 100% sure) that Hydration healed the confusion as well. Earthquake hits the Steel types that resist Outrage. Rest heals Goodra and in Rain, it can wake up instantly. EVs maximise Special bulk, as Curse boosts Attack and Defence.
This set would be a great bulky booster, although it would struggle with Steel types not weak to Earthquake. It would pair quite well with Rain Quiver Dance Volcarona.
Goodra @ Leftovers
Ability: Hydration
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
- Curse
- Outrage
- Earthquake
- Rest
In Rain, this set could be very difficult to take down. Curse boosts Goodra's Attack, and patches up its low Defence. Think Curselax 2.0. Outrage is a very powerful STAB, which back then nothing was immune to. And I think (not 100% sure) that Hydration healed the confusion as well. Earthquake hits the Steel types that resist Outrage. Rest heals Goodra and in Rain, it can wake up instantly. EVs maximise Special bulk, as Curse boosts Attack and Defence.
This set would be a great bulky booster, although it would struggle with Steel types not weak to Earthquake. It would pair quite well with Rain Quiver Dance Volcarona.
Alright. Next up! What if Mimic/Disable was permanent in RBY?
Both mimic and disable are similar moves in the sense that they're effects are only temporary. So in this scenario, these moves will become permanent. So for mimic, it is able to randomly copy a move the opponent knows that it does not currently know and it keeps the move even after switching. As for disable, the disabled move becomes permanently disabled even after switching however if you use disable on a different move on the same disabled pokemon, the previously disabled move will be usable again. So how will this affect the metagame? Will new threats rise while others fall? You tell me!
Both mimic and disable are similar moves in the sense that they're effects are only temporary. So in this scenario, these moves will become permanent. So for mimic, it is able to randomly copy a move the opponent knows that it does not currently know and it keeps the move even after switching. As for disable, the disabled move becomes permanently disabled even after switching however if you use disable on a different move on the same disabled pokemon, the previously disabled move will be usable again. So how will this affect the metagame? Will new threats rise while others fall? You tell me!
They're both luck based enough that it's going to be hard to really form a strategy around them. Mimic moreso than Disable. Since Mimic becomes permanent once you use the move that's it. Sometimes it might be useful, other time it might be a second Thunder Wave.
Disable on the other hand has potential for actual play. Several pokemon are so reliant on a certain move to function that they're crippled if it gets disabled. Disable Chansey's Softboiled! Disable Amnesia on AmnesiaLax! You get the idea. Since you can use it until you get the move you want it's slightly less luck reliant than Mimic, and can possibly create some interesting play around your opponent switching their disabled mon into another disable to get their move back.
Kinda annoying issue is, of course, that disable's got 55 accuracy.
Disable on the other hand has potential for actual play. Several pokemon are so reliant on a certain move to function that they're crippled if it gets disabled. Disable Chansey's Softboiled! Disable Amnesia on AmnesiaLax! You get the idea. Since you can use it until you get the move you want it's slightly less luck reliant than Mimic, and can possibly create some interesting play around your opponent switching their disabled mon into another disable to get their move back.
Kinda annoying issue is, of course, that disable's got 55 accuracy.
There's actually a modded RBY metagame called Violet Version which does both: http://violetversion.psim.us/
It changes a bunch of other things, but OU Pokemon and standard moves are mostly left alone so you can sorta get an idea of how OU would play out with the Mimic/Disable changes. A few unavoidable differences from OU though are: No Rhydon, Rock Slide was buffed to 85 BP, Disable has 100% accuracy, Partial Trapping was reworked, and only certain Pokemon get Mimic.
It changes a bunch of other things, but OU Pokemon and standard moves are mostly left alone so you can sorta get an idea of how OU would play out with the Mimic/Disable changes. A few unavoidable differences from OU though are: No Rhydon, Rock Slide was buffed to 85 BP, Disable has 100% accuracy, Partial Trapping was reworked, and only certain Pokemon get Mimic.
While Mimic can only be useful to Zapdos in case it gets the equake from gol/don, I think permanent Disable would be really amazing today. Disable+Substitute Jynx will be awesome and finally we'll have a good reason to use Substitute (except for Dodrio). Jynx would be about to support the team in such a good way, baiting Body Slam (Lax, Tauros) / Softboiled-Recover (Chansey, Kazam) and letting Zapper clean easily without para chances.
RBY could change in such an incredible way if the Disable/Mimic become permanent!
RBY could change in such an incredible way if the Disable/Mimic become permanent!
Jynx actually loves permanent Mimic, too. 100% chance to grab TWave, Tbolt, or Recover from standard Starm (Ty's post says you'll Mimic moves you don't already know, so Blizz gets skipped), which is an otherwise poor lead matchup. A lot of Chan have a similar 3/4 (with IB being a waste), though some variants are less useful to face. Considering they're two of the best switch-ins to Jynx, it becomes a much more interesting gamble for the last slot.While Mimic can only be useful to Zapdos in case it gets the equake from gol/don, I think permanent Disable would be really amazing today. Disable+Substitute Jynx will be awesome and finally we'll have a good reason to use Substitute (except for Dodrio). Jynx would be about to support the team in such a good way, baiting Body Slam (Lax, Tauros) / Softboiled-Recover (Chansey, Kazam) and letting Zapper clean easily without para chances.
RBY could change in such an incredible way if the Disable/Mimic become permanent!
Disable seems p busted when permanent. The move that gets disabled is random in RBY, though. Still amazing to cut an opponent's moveslots down to 3 permanently, even if you can't bait certain moves. If that's also fixed in this scenario, the move's even more OP...
Cool. Heres the next one. What if weather setting is permanent in GSC?
Weather has been introduced in GSC yet it is very rarely used due to it only lasting 5 turns. When you consider how long games can potentially last, it is not worth using outside of a handful of pokemon. However, what if weather setting is permanent? This would mean using rain dance, sunny day, or sand storm will cause that weather to last for the rest of the game. However, the weather can be changed by using another weather move. So how would this change the meta? What pokemon could be seen taking advantage of the weather? Would new threats rise while old ones fade? You tell me!
Weather has been introduced in GSC yet it is very rarely used due to it only lasting 5 turns. When you consider how long games can potentially last, it is not worth using outside of a handful of pokemon. However, what if weather setting is permanent? This would mean using rain dance, sunny day, or sand storm will cause that weather to last for the rest of the game. However, the weather can be changed by using another weather move. So how would this change the meta? What pokemon could be seen taking advantage of the weather? Would new threats rise while old ones fade? You tell me!
Veeery interesting. Obviously the first thing that springs to mind is Sandstorm, which I would say immediately becomes a dominating force because of the passive damage involved. Rain is the main alternative, Vap benefits enormously from it, not sure how other waters would fare since they're not nearly as threatening as Vap in terms of STAB. Obviously there's also 100% accurate Thunders but I think that from a teambuilding perspective it's not a big deal even if it might have a big impact- would you devote a moveslot to ensuring another move avoids a 30% miss (especially if you only run it on one pokemon?)? Ofc, it could even be worth it to cancel Sandstorm. Sun gets the short end of the stick imo, since Fire types still aren't very good, stronger Fire coverage I doubt is worth it and Solarbeam is still really limited
Hail is lol
Hail is lol
I actually think Sun gets the strongest boost of them all, Entei and Moltres can deal heavy, heavy damage with Sun boosted Fire Blasts without having to worry about auto-losing to Snorlax (still a counter but no longer reliable), rain seems the weakest to me. I wonder if DrumZard could make use of Solar Beam for the rock/grounds/suicune
Charizard couldn't learn Solarbeam till DP, actually, so no dice there. I'm just spitballing here, but I see Sunny Day being the most interesting weather. It would have use as an anti-sand tool, Entei would definitely get somewhat better (might not be enough to become prominent, though), and if you had a reliable way to eliminate sand setters I could see Solarbeam as an option over Giga Drain on Exeggutor. I don't think it would want to give up a moveslot to run Sunny Day itself, but Spikes or a little chip damage would make it very threatening to Tyranitar (12.8% chance to OHKO after Spikes), and even without Spikes it gets 2HKOs on Suicune, Vaporeon, and Steelix, an OHKO on Marowak, and does 39-49% on Raikou.
I'm pretty sure Houndoom is the biggest winner in a sunny environment, though. Its Fire Blasts are incredibly difficult to switch in on for anything that isn't a resist or Blissey/Snorlax in the sun (even Snorlax takes enough damage that Double-Edge and a layer of Spikes puts it into potential 2HKO range if my math is right). Solarbeam and Crunch do pretty respectable damage to most of the things that don't get 2HKO'd by Fire Blast, and if you've got other things to set up sun for it and free up a moveslot, Houndoom can make a nice enough Pursuit trapper too.
I don't think rain would have a large impact on Thunder given that most Zapdos and Raikou are already running Thunder even without rain and ~100% of teams, ie including your opponent's, will have Thunder there. Maybe a small benefit for the teams that run both Zapdos and Raikou, but that's about it.
Sunny Day on the other hand reduces Thunder's accuracy to 50% making Zapdos and Raikou pretty shit checks to a lot of stuff, so that's interesting. I agree with above posters that Sunny Beam mons would be reasonably threatening offensively... but there's even bigger news
It also makes Synthesis, Morning Sun, and Moonlight into FULL RECOVERY moves. That's huge for Umbreon, Espeon, Nidoking, Nidoqueen, and Exeggutor, plus Meganium and Venusaur.
Sand is Sand. Passive damage is good.
All in all, I think teams would have to strongly consider a weather move if nothing else just because a full healing move for annoying mons like Exeggutor that doesn't require a separate heal bell user is huge, so you would consider your own Sand or Rain to stop it.
Sunny Day on the other hand reduces Thunder's accuracy to 50% making Zapdos and Raikou pretty shit checks to a lot of stuff, so that's interesting. I agree with above posters that Sunny Beam mons would be reasonably threatening offensively... but there's even bigger news
It also makes Synthesis, Morning Sun, and Moonlight into FULL RECOVERY moves. That's huge for Umbreon, Espeon, Nidoking, Nidoqueen, and Exeggutor, plus Meganium and Venusaur.
Sand is Sand. Passive damage is good.
All in all, I think teams would have to strongly consider a weather move if nothing else just because a full healing move for annoying mons like Exeggutor that doesn't require a separate heal bell user is huge, so you would consider your own Sand or Rain to stop it.
That seems like a bug. I've never heard of it healing 100%.
Sand would only be slightly more efficient in not having to waste a turn as often. Still not good.
Rain probably wouldn't do much. You'd just see more teams with Water-resists maybe.
Sun would definitely have a big impact. Moltres sun-boosted Fire Blast would be broken. I think Snorlax can be 2HKO'd by a roll with spikes, and I'm pretty sure Raikou is outright 2HKO'd. Tbolt might be used more frequently because of this, and teams relying on Thunder might choose to run Sand and Rain if only to make their accuracy not completely fucked.
Sand would only be slightly more efficient in not having to waste a turn as often. Still not good.
Rain probably wouldn't do much. You'd just see more teams with Water-resists maybe.
Sun would definitely have a big impact. Moltres sun-boosted Fire Blast would be broken. I think Snorlax can be 2HKO'd by a roll with spikes, and I'm pretty sure Raikou is outright 2HKO'd. Tbolt might be used more frequently because of this, and teams relying on Thunder might choose to run Sand and Rain if only to make their accuracy not completely fucked.
Sunny weather doubles the restorative power of those moves. And Link Battles will assume the time of day is whatever is most beneficial to the move. Since Synthesis, for example, heals 50% under normal conditions during the day (25% otherwise), it will heal 100% in sun during the day (50% otherwise), and the link battle will assume it's day. Moonlight is the same - heals 50% under normal conditions at night (25% otherwise), heals 100% in sun at night (50% otherwise), and the link battle assumes it's night. Rain is the opposite - cuts the restore rate in half, so Synthesis would only recover 25% (12.5% if it wasn't a Link Battle and it wasn't daytime).
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