Things Fall Apart (Peaked at 1517, 5th)

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Myzozoa

to find out how to win what they all lost
is a Top Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Past WCoP Champion
Things Fall Apart

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When Black and White was released I didn't get too excited about it. Weather wars and a shift way from a stall vs offense metagame to a metagame based around abusing weather made it hard for me to get into B/W in a competitive way because I couldn't use a lot of what I knew from generation 4 in the new game. The game had changed and I was pretty much left behind.

I played for a while when blaziken was OU, I had a pretty successful run mainly because of how overpowered Blaziken was, anyone who denies that its uber is believing their own lies. In the same way many sand stall players seem to think Excadrill isn't worthy of a ban. Like those suburbanites who deny global warming because they drive SUVs, users of Excadrill want to believe that the pokemon they derive their success from isn't just broken. In other words they have to believe that they are skilled. After Blaziken was banned I stopped playing again, I'm not great at pokemon, but I'm competent: if something is as broken as Blaziken I will be successful abusing it.

When Excadrill was banned in this recent round of suspect testing I decided to come back to pokemon. I felt that my own rather one-dimensional style of play could be successful again, but before I get into that I want to lay out my own feelings on why Excadrill is broken.

In past generations the way you revenge killed a pokemon was through a priority move (if it had been weakened), or through a pokemon with a Choice Scarf. The dominant users of this item in 4th generation were Flygon, Jirachi, and Rotom-a. There was a trade off to being able to revenge kill a pokemon who had already gotten set-up: you got locked into a move and essentially gave a free turn to your opponent. If you're opponent was playing stall they usually used that turn (where you switched out) to set up a layer of spikes, to punish you even more for being forced to switch out. And if they were playing offense they set-up another pokemon in that time, threatening even further.

Scarf pokemon were bad in generation 4. But they were a necessary evil. If you didn't want to get swept by Gyarados you ran one, simple as that. Stall teams laughed at scarf pokemon that didn't have trick, they we're essentially dead weight, and offense could sometimes use that free turn to set up something too powerful for your team to deal with, something like swords dance Lucario etc.

Excadrill changed everything. He could revenge kill a set-up sweeper with ease using STAB earthquakes and he wouldn't be locked into a move. He gave away no free turns. Sand stall could put him at the end of their team and he would basically make certain that an offensive team wouldn't be able to get through. Against other stall teams he can set-up late game and clear entry hazards on the same moveset. No 'good' ghost type can come in on Excadrill repeatedly. Not to mention the fact that tyranitar can trap any of them with pursuit.

So with Excadrill gone I decided it was safe to return to a the full offensive style that I love:

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Deoxys-e
Leftovers
Timid
252 HP, 252 Speed, 4 Defense


Stealth Rock
Ice Beam
Taunt
Spikes

Every offensive team needs entry hazards, and the sooner they get put out the better. The danger of dedicated entry hazards on a somewhat frail offensive team is that something could set-up on you as you put them up, and thats why taunt is on this set instead of magic coat.

Team preview has changed the way the game is played in such a way that I think there is a mentality that suicide leads are no longer viable, which is simply untrue. Having a dedicated lead promotes the important principle of strategy over coverage. All the time I see teams on the ladder that have no apparent strategy. Instead they have an answer for everything.

Don't be confused, I'm not describing stall teams which have a clear strategy based around entry hazards and status moves. I'm describing what I would call 'balanced' teams that have a mentality that "If i have a switch into everything, how can I lose?" This might even have worked when Excadrill was in OU, but now to be successful it isn't enough to just not lose, you have to win.

If anything team preview makes dedicated suicide leads better by allowing the user of such a lead to eliminate any prediction games associated with the beginning team preview jockeying. How do you create consistency in a game where there is an element of luck? Eliminate prediction. Its just as much blind guessing as it ever was.

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Haxorus
Lum Berry
Adamant
32hp, 252 attack, 224 speed
Dragon Dance
Outrage
Taunt
Earthquake

Haxorus is pure class, I can't go on enough about the ridiculous of pure dragon typing. Taunt is meant to stop phazing and status moves etc.

Haxorus is one of the best pokemon for my team against rain teams. It sets up on pretty much every common rain pokemon, and it can KO all of them except ferrothorn at +1. While normally I send out haxorus early, it has late game utility with taunt so its maybe the most important pokemon on this team after deoxsy-e.

At +1 outrage will 2hko steels that don't invest in defense (Jirachi for example), and after sr and spikes even the bulky steels will be taking massive damage. Lum Berry is largely just so that Sableye doesnt fuck up this team, though I've sort of decided that Prankster Sableye isn't very good even against this team, can't take repeated hits :/

In drawing another parallel to 4th generation, I'm going to throw out the idea that Salamence was banned not because it was too good offensively, but because it was too good at support. Essentially, once it sets-up, any wall capable of dealing with it (and there were few) would be far to weak to handle another sweeper, and it made sweeping dramatically easier than normal for pokemon such as Lucario.

On this team Haxorus is filling the role that Salamence would have in 4th generation. After Skarmory brave birds me twice and has taken too outrages it will be left around 20%, too low to come back around and deal with tyranitar or scizor.



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Salamence
Life Orb
Naive
252 Speed/ 24 special attack/ 232 Attack
Intimidate


Dragon Dance
Outrage
Fireblast
Earthquake

On this team salamence serves two purposes. Arguably the most important purpose it has is intimidating any attacker that sets up on this team. Certain pokemon like Gyarados and Dragonite are too dangerous if they get a window to set up, and salamence both threatens them and prevents them from sweeping.

The second role Salamence plays is in threatening Skarmory. Skarmory can essentially come in with impunity on Haxorus, Scizor, and tyranitar, so having something immune to spikes that can come in is important. It also hits base 100 speed making it the fastest sweeper on the team.

Salamence is really on this team because it is so similar to haxorus, can't get enough. But looking beyond this, Salamence is also maybe the only pokemon on this team that is still excellent even when it isn't set-up. Despite not having Dracometeor, the way the moveset works is such that Salamence can easily step into the same role as mixmence, and its this type of versatility that makes Salamence excellent.

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Tyranitar
Lum Berry
Jolly
252 attack/252 speed/4 hp

Dragon Dance
Stone Edge
Aqua Tail
Crunch

Aqua tail smacks Gliscor, and will OHKO it at +1 in the rain. In any case, this Tyranitar will always beat Gliscor, as earthquake doesn't ohko. Like Salamence, Tyranitar serves 2 roles on this team.

While this is by no means a weather based team, I can still very easily be screwed by rain or hail in certain situations. In hail's case, this Tyranitar is a unstoppable sweeper at +1, they just lose nothing doing. Rain isn't as threatened, but if Ferrothorn is weakened they are going to lose Politoed in all likelihood as they try to stop the sweep. against Sun teams the utility is obvious, I really can't prevent Venusaur from sweeping any other way so Tyranitar is unreplacable.

Tyranitar also serves as a check to dominant special sweepers like Tornadus and Latios that are very threatening to this team. Remember, it isn't just enough that Scizor and Lucario can use priority moves to kill such pokemon, if I can't set up on them my team loses momentum and thats when I lose. This strategy is all about controlling the tempo of the match and keeping it faster than they can possibly keep up with.

Typically, I win long before Tyranitar has to come in, and in theory Salamence and Haxorus should be dead before then, that way they don't end up getting hit by sand stream damage, which in conjunction with Life Orb will cause Salamence to wilt pretty damn fast.


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Lucario
Life Orb
Adamant
252 speed/ 4 defense/ 252 attack

Swords Dance
Close Combat
Extreme Speed
Crunch

Like Salamence, Lucario was almost unusable as a late game sweeper when Excadrill was in OU. This, in combination with team preview allowing an opponent to see Lucario ahead of time and prepare, makes Lucario much less viable as a pokemon to build a team around than it was in generation 4. My team circumvents this nerf by not building around it, and instead using it as just one part in an offensive machine meant to break stall.

Extreme speed is the first priority move on this team, and every team offensive team needs to rely on priority to revenge kill anything that happens to set-up. We can't rely on Choice Scarf because we lose if we give away free turns. Lucario is also the only pokemon on this team besides Salamence that really threatens Skarmory.

I predict Lucario will rise again to the popularity it had in generation 4, this moveset is just far too good to not be used. At +2 extreme speed will KO most things that outspeed it, including scarf Rotom, Landorus, and Tornadus. The things that it can't sweep through like Terakion, scarf Tyranitar, etc, are all great set-up fodder for scizor.



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Scizor
Life Orb
Adamant
252 attack/ 100 Speed/ 156 Hp

Swords Dance
Bullet Punch
Super Power
Bug Bite

This is the best endgame pokemon in BW OU period. It stops set-up sweepers cold, picks off weakened walls, and prevents coverage sweepers like Mamoswine and Gengar from routing my team late game. The EV spread is a little different from the one I usually use, as I sometimes need the extra bulk to handle Terrakion's Close Combat. Normally I run a faster set. The speed EV's will outspeed Politoeds that don't invest, as well as Metagross and minimum speed Heatran. Keep in mind that Scizor is perhaps the best switch in to Ferrothorn in the game, and his utility is not limited by paralysis.

This is also the pokemon I typically lead off with against baton pass, as at +2 it will sweep the standard baton pass chain, and they don't have any way to prevent it from setting up and this is the only pokemon I ever lead off with other than Deoxys-e.






How to Play This Team: Understand that the goal of this team is to smash all of the defensive pokemon on their team until they're too weak to take any more damage so that something eventually sweeps. Remember that if you don't keep the pressure on them, your opponent will be able to bring out their own offensive pokemon and you don't really have any defense to keep them from sweeping you! Its okay for your pokemon to die in an attempt to weaken a wall! If Salamence dies to get Jirachi to 50% so that later it won't be able to take a +1 outrage from Haxorus thats fine. Every pokemon on this team is walled by physical walls, but eventually the wall(s) will be too weak to stop another physical sweeper and that is when you've won. Sacrificing the correct pokemon is key, as is recognizing which of your sweepers is most threatening to them, that way you can conserve it for when the time is ripe.

Above all else, avoid getting caught in prediction, this team is designed to eliminate the necessity of prediction and rather than prediction being a key skill for this team, timing and thinking ahead are the keys to winning. Know where you want to go with the match, if at first it seems that nothing on your team can get an outright sweep, see if you can wear a pokemon down so it can't stop a sweep. All the time I see teams that would be 6-0ed by Scizor if it weren't for Heatran, so what do you do? Make the game about killing Heatran. The way to win is always there, you just have to see it soon enough.
 
This team seems awfully weak to Skarm and quagsire. Basically any decent stall team should have no problem dealing with this team. I would say change lucario into a NP version to help weaken physical walls that think your going to SD. Changing mence to a full mixmence would also give you an edge on stall teams.

Lucario-Modest-Lifeorb/airballoon
252 speed, 252 spatk, 4hp
-Vaccuum Wave
-Aurasphere
-Shadowball
-Nastyplot
 
Understand that the goal of this team is to smash all of the defensive pokemon on their team until they're too weak to take any more damage so that something eventually sweeps.

This. I played this on the ladder using a very defensive team featuring Skarmory. I managed to take down most of the team, but by then I was too weak to stop Luke. I think you play this team very well, and I have very little to change to the team itself. My only suggestion is to try out ice punch over crunch on Lucario, obviously this is personal preference, but somehow I feel your current team would have a bit more trouble with Gliscor then with the likes of Jellicent and Celebi. Congratulations on your success!
 
missing the item on your deoxys, i'm guessing sash?

team looks pretty good, i would watch out for scarfed terrakion as it outspeeds and ohkos everything except scizor.

edit: seconding the suggestion to change mence to mixmence.
 
Ok I fixed Deoxys-e (formatting fuck-up by me), it should be leftovers, which I prefer over sash because its pretty rare to have deoxys-e get OHKOed, so I feel like I'm getting 1-layer and Stealth Rock pretty often. I might change it, as it doesn't make too much of a difference either way.

I can't say that I support a change to mix mence. Mix-mence does not threaten skarmory any more or less than DD mence, and quagsires even with unaware is not good at receiving STAB LO outrages. Really the best answer to quagsires is to get it going through entry hazards, which I have. I don't think mix-mence is bad so much as I don't see it as much different than DDmence, and DD mence is just more fitting in my opinion.

I am going to plead the case that this team is very , very good against stall teams, exceptionally good in that it is designed and tailored very specifically to beat stall. A special sweeper would only pollute the flow of the team, as it takes pressure off of physical walls. Normally blissy is dead weight for a stall team against me and a special sweeper actually appreciably weakens me against stall.
 
No, quagsire and skarm aren't an issue here, or at least quag. Quag is 2HKOd by both of the dragons and lucario and is too slow to recover off after that, so at worst it is going to toxic or eq 1 thing and then die. Skarm doesn't stand a chance against most of this team either. Stall that relies on 1 wall to stop boosting sweepers will usually lose.

There isn't much to change, the team members were well chosen. My only problem is that you could be prone to being counter swept by threats like Gyarados and offensive Volcarona, as they can set up on a significant amount of your sweepers and then sweep. That's the main problem that teams like these have. When I use this style, I always run screens on deoxys. With screens up nothing will be able to do this without taking enough damage to be revenged or just finished. This also lets you have, for example, haxorus stop Skarmory and ferrothorn from doing anything via taunt or damage wise while you can boost a bit more and in general get more setup against strong sweepers and revengers with good coverage like Starmie and Terrakion that are really difficult for this team to set up on. It does mean you lose spikes and ice beam, but it's worth trying at least since spikes don't even hit two of the prominent physical walls. Props for using/abusing one of the strongest and most unappreciated playstyles.
 
lol i run basically the same team as you (<3 HO)

have you thought about running ds deoxys over your deoxys right now though? it lets you set up a lot easier (for example, haxorus can actually set up to +3/+3 against skarm and 2HKO while not being 3HKOed by Brave Bird), and allows for more easy sweeps.
 
A set for Deoxys that I have had a lot of success with is one that uses both HP Fire and Superpower.

Deoxys-S @ Expert Belt
Naive 16 Atk/252 SpA/240 Spd
-Stealth Rocks
-Spikes
-HP Fire
-Superpower

Given evens allow the OHKO of 252/0 Tyranitar and possible some with Defense investment but not sure and KO Ferrothorn, Forretress, and Scizor with Superpower and HP Fire respectively. Just a suggestion, I found Taunt on DeoS not useful enough for a slot, but that's just me. GT by the way.
 
Good read, solid team, not much to change with this strategy I think you've already done a great job of using each mon to support the sweep of another. Seems like Conkeldurr could be pretty dangerous if it nabs a bulk up on TTar (at which point mence is usually dead according to the desc). My best suggestion would be to just sit TTar against teams with Durr because he's the only scot free setup opportunity Durr is gonna get, scizor to an extent as well, and play carefully with mence. Maybe try Psycho Boost on Deoxys over Ice Beam, for an extra Durr check in case you lead with scizor. Mixmence has the advantage of being able to OHKO Durr regardless of def boosts so that might be something to look into. Something like Draco / Fire Blast / Brick Break / Roost would be a more reliable check, but it kinda detracts from your strategy. Gl brohan

edit: Shuca Berry on TTar could make a nice lure for Landorus and Gliscor. Provides a surprise kill on a big threat to your team (Lando) while also paving the way for a Luc sweep.
 
Good read, solid team, not much to change with this strategy I think you've already done a great job of using each mon to support the sweep of another. Seems like Conkeldurr could be pretty dangerous if it nabs a bulk up on TTar (at which point mence is usually dead according to the desc). My best suggestion would be to just sit TTar against teams with Durr because he's the only scot free setup opportunity Durr is gonna get, scizor to an extent as well, and play carefully with mence. Maybe try Psycho Boost on Deoxys over Ice Beam, for an extra Durr check in case you lead with scizor. Mixmence has the advantage of being able to OHKO Durr regardless of def boosts so that might be something to look into. Something like Draco / Fire Blast / Brick Break / Roost would be a more reliable check, but it kinda detracts from your strategy. Gl brohan

edit: Shuca Berry on TTar could make a nice lure for Landorus and Gliscor. Provides a surprise kill on a big threat to your team (Lando) while also paving the way for a Luc sweep.

I like this idea, Conkeldurr (lol thats so much harder to type than roobushin) is the biggest threat to this team without a doubt. I've tried shuca berry tar, and its pretty good, though at this time I'm liking lum berry too, mainly cause I'm like really insecure about Prankster sableye. When I was playing in the excadrill metagame I used shuca berry, and in generation four i used it when garchomp was a suspect. Good stuff. And I'll test psycho boost when I get a chance, sounds good, even if its unlikely deoxys-e will be alive to use it (though if its on the set I can conserve deoxys-e when I see conkeldur, so thank you team preview).

I didn't try dual screens deoxys-e post-excadrill, but I've used it like literally maybe over 500 times. Its really good but I think of it like this: if I'm going to have two priority swords dance sweepers, an extra layer of spikes is pretty important. The metagame is going to change again sooner or later, and when it does I'll use a different combination of pokemon and those pokemon may need the screens support more than these ones. Though I will once again say that I have not tested dual screens with these pokemon and it may be the better set to go with. I'm especially interested in getting haxorus to +2 against skarm I'll check it out.
 
I didn't try dual screens deoxys-e post-excadrill, but I've used it like literally maybe over 500 times. Its really good but I think of it like this: if I'm going to have two priority swords dance sweepers, an extra layer of spikes is pretty important. The metagame is going to change again sooner or later, and when it does I'll use a different combination of pokemon and those pokemon may need the screens support more than these ones. Though I will once again say that I have not tested dual screens with these pokemon and it may be the better set to go with. I'm especially interested in getting haxorus to +2 against skarm I'll check it out.

yeah, the main problem that you *might* encounter with dual screens is that you have to pick one pokemon (probably haxorus) to completely annihilate the opposing team; basically, you have one or two chances to blow huge holes, and the rest of your mons should clean up.

(although you already probably knew that XD)
 
Yeah I did some more testing and while i still like the entry hazards, screens definitely makes the team more consistent, and also provides support against annoying leads like rapid spin tentacruel and cloyster. It just makes deoxys-e more consistent as I dont have to worry as much about playing around a spin.
 
I will just say before I start, I love this team. Great job.

Anyway, when I was using this team, while I didn't have any trouble with it denting my team, Gyarados was a pain to take down. I'm gonna recommend MixMence with Draco Meteor to take Gyara out easier.
 
i recommend having more sp.attackers on your team you got 5 attackers and only deoxys-s with ice beam as a sp.atk attacker, recommending volcarona and latios to replace salamence and tyranitar
 
I'm not looking to have special attackers purely for the sake of having special attackers. Its that type of logic that allows stall to wreck new players. New players believe in a mythology where they think they need a special wall, a physical wall, a special sweeper, a physical sweeper, etc, etc. The end result is a team that can't put consistent pressure on stall. Saying I need special attackers because I have none is not a critique, its an expression of a personal team building philosophy that has no basis in facts or competitiveness. Now that being said, rain stall is not this team's best match-up and for that reason I'm currently testing the following:

Virizion over Tyranitar

Dragonite over Tyranitar

Terrakion over Lucario
 
If you run Verizion, definitely run SD / Leaf Blade / Close Combat / Stone Edge, as opposed to HP Ice; I've tried Verizion and Stone Edge always seemed to work better (for me) as it means that you aren't complete set-up bait for stuff like Volcarona. Also, I don't think Terrakion over Lucario would work since that Extremespeed is so helpful (for me). Also yeah, keep running 5 Physical Sweepers that's the point of HO -____-.
 
Really good team myzozoa i vsed this team earlier a few times and then i saw this RMT and realized your names matched up (derp) lol. This team definately applys a lot of offensive pressure and im pretty sure you beat me with it everytime because screens deoxys s screwed me bad. I dont think you should replace Lucario with Terrakion just because Extremespeed is really awesome and is a +2 rather than +1 meaning you beat mach punch to the punch (see what I did there). Dragonite over tyranitar might be a good option just because multi-scale and Dragonite is pretty bulky in his own right also. Good luck with the team and I had alot of fun battling you! :)
 
Hey, I also faced this team, and proceeded to get destroyed by screens + Double Dancing Terrakion >.<. I immediately opened up teambuilder and built a team similiar to yours except I use subSD landorus and offensive DD d-nite. this team is awesome, and the first successful HO team I've seen. Nice! Personally since you are testing D-nite I'd also recommend the offensive version with ExtremeSpeed to give you two +2 priority moves that all but stop any attempted sweeps.
 
Testing on virizion has been extremely disappointing, all of a sudden latios is actually good against me, and I hate it. Its just weak and its special defense isn't going to win many matches for me. Its unreliable and it doesn't break things down in a way that supports my dragons.

Terrakion has been pretty good, I'm using double dance which is easy to set-up with screens. It has surprisingly excellent bulk, it takes special attacks like a champ.

Dragonite is getting a spot over mence because the team already wrecks skarmory unbelievably hard, and the extra speed makes no difference.

the current version:

DS Deoxys-e
Double Dance Terrakion (lum)
DD-Taunt Haxorus (lum)
SD Lucario (LO)
SD Scizor (LO)
DD Dragonite (lum)
 
If you are still testing and making changes, I think I've got one more thing to add that could help, Gyarados over Terrakion. I've used Gyara on my ho team that is kinda similar to your current version and it has been a life saver. Since Conkeldurr, is a huge threat here, Gyarados with bounce and intimidate is the best thing ever. It also makes up for the lack of intimidate now that mence is replaced and is a nice mon against rain due to the resist and the boosted waterfalls. It isn't a wallbreaking sweeper, but it can is good at weakening walls like Ferrothorn since bounce does a bit over 50% at +1 and can hit some physical walls like Gliscor and Tangrowth super effectively. The most effective coverage moves are stone edge and bounce and the best item for it is lum berry.
 
The only issue about Gyarados is that Rotom-W is a bitch. I'd probably recommend Double-Edge for its coverage move, to have a much better chance in taking out non-scarfed Rotom-W, and with a Life Orb, too.

EDIT: So under a Light Screen, Gyarados comfortably survives a non-Spec Volt Switch, so Life Orb may not be necessary. I'd still recommend Double-Edge, though.
 
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