Torkoal Discussion

[Makn]

Overview: Torkoal may not seem like much, just a fire type who happens to have a good defense stat and some mediocre attacking stats with appalling speed to go along with it. However; Torkoal can fill out a decent Support set, with the ability set up and take down rocks as well as spread status around. However is generally inferior to other similar Pokemon that can fill out the same roll as him on a team.

Type: Fire

Ability:
White Smoke: Prevents the enemy from lowering this Pokemon's stats.

Dream World Ability:
Shell Armor: Prevents critical hits.

HP 70
Atk 85
Def 140
SpA 85
SpD 70
Spe 20

Support
Item: Leftovers
Nature: Bold
EVs: 252 HP, 252 Def, 4 SpD

Stealth Rock
Rapid Spin
Toxic/Yawn
Lava Plume/Flamethrower

Torkoal has quite a few good support moves to play around with, although these options have hardly changed (if at all) since Gen IV. Stealth Rock is an obvious move to have to have on a support Pokemon, and Rapid Spin is also a nice niche that Torkoal can fill. Some other toys you can play around with are Toxic and Yawn. Will-O-Wisp could theoretically be run in the slot if you decide to run Flamethrower over Lava Plume, however it is considered an inferior option and usually just a waste of one of your precious move slots. Torkoal also has a great Defense 140 base defense stat, with a lackluster, but still usable 70 special defense stat to back it up. This gives Torkoal some reason to be considered as a physically defensive support Pokemon, although it faces stiff competition from other support Pokemon such as Blastoise, Hitmonchan, and Claydol in terms of spinning, and is probably inferior to these three, especially when you consider Torkoal has a weakness to Stealth Rock, Earthquake, and Stone Edge. Torkoal has some good options to play around with, but is generally considered outclassed due to his inferior typing and stats.




Shell Smash
Item: Life Orb
Nature: Naive
EVs: 252 SpA, 252 Spe, 4 Atk

~Shell Smash
~Fire Blast/Flamethrower
~Earth Power
~Stone Edge/Rock Slide

After one Shell Smash Torkoal reaches a respectable sped stat of 304, which is enough to naturally outspeed quite a bit of the RU metagame. Fire Blast, Earth Power, and Stone Edge provide decent coverage, fearing a few potent walls that will like to come in and rain on Torkoal's parade. Anything faster than Torkoal is going to rape his shit after he sets up a Shell Smash, so don't expect him to live too long. This set is mostly considered a gimmick as Torkoal is outrun and killed by a lot of major RU threats such as Yanmega.

 

[blarajan]

Torkoal is too slow to smash, and too weak to abuse. Just use him as a Pokemon that sets up Stealth Rock and Rapid Spins.

 

[Makn]

Torkoal is too slow to smash, and too weak to abuse. Just use him as a Pokemon that sets up Stealth Rock and Rapid Spins.

OK then, prove me wrong. Give me some more information about what Torkoal outspeeds and doesn't outspeed, what it kills and what it doesn't, and then maybe perhaps I'll take your opinion into consideration.

 

[Jaetheho]

Torkoal is insanely bulky. Its only downside is weakness to common attacking types and sr. You should definitely have a supporter set there.

 

[LeviLamprey]

Well, Torkoal can run a gimmick Shell Smash set, but in truth s/he is too slow to outspeed even in the lower tiers. That said, when Salac Berry becomes available a gimmick SalacSmash may become an option (but this is very risky). It excels at jobs such as Bulky Curser, phazer (Clear Smog) and spinner. That said, Smash Torkoal is very useful IF you can get it up successfully. The trouble is it will often need 2 boosts to become speedy enough. I've tested TorkoalSmash and it consistently has trouble with threats like Yanmega, Entei, Accelgor, Persian etc., via crippling (TWave Persian destroys Torkoal) or just damage (Yanmega anyone?). However, like I have already said, it plays equally well or better as a support user.

 

[Makn]

All right, I will definitely get started on writing more sets come tomorrow.

 

[Newmannium]

Max speed timid Torkoal at +2 is outspeed by all mons at 90 speed and above, which includes metagame all-stars Yanmega, Porygon-Z, and Sharpedo. That's in addition to the likes of Durant, Lilligant, Venomoth, Moltres, Krookodile, Typhlosion, Alakazam, Manectric, Sceptile, Gavuntula and pretty much every scarfed Pokemon ever used. Oh, and Adamant Entei and Honchkrow fuck you up at -1 with Ex-Speed/Sucker Punch.

Now, couple that with a mediocre typing, medicore 85/85 offensive stats, a shitty offensive movepool, Stealth Rock weakness, crap special defense and a good 140 base defense stat that's being gutted by shell smash and you have Pokemon that really should stick to gimmicky Rapid Spin/support sets.

 

[blarajan]

OK then, prove me wrong. Give me some more information about what Torkoal outspeeds and doesn't outspeed, what it kills and what it doesn't, and then maybe perhaps I'll take your opinion into consideration.

Getting insulting when someone says something that goes against what you think is not proper, nor appreciated.

Max speed timid Torkoal at +2 is outspeed by all mons at 90 speed and above, which includes metagame all-stars Yanmega, Porygon-Z, and Sharpedo. That's in addition to the likes of Durant, Lilligant, Venomoth, Moltres, Krookodile, Typhlosion, Alakazam, Manectric, Sceptile, Gavuntula and pretty much every scarfed Pokemon ever used. Oh, and Adamant Entei and Honchkrow fuck you up at -1 with Ex-Speed/Sucker Punch.

Now, couple that with a mediocre typing, medicore 85/85 offensive stats, a shitty offensive movepool, Stealth Rock weakness, crap special defense and a good 140 base defense stat that's being gutted by shell smash and you have Pokemon that really should stick to gimmicky Rapid Spin/support sets.

If I were to honor your insults with a comment, this is what I would have said. Shell Smash Torkoal does not fit in to a metagame where the most common Pokemon are a lot faster than it is at +2, and where the common walls (Munchlax/Cresselia/Blastoise...) just don't break from anything Torkoal throws.

 

[TM13IceBeam]

even as a spinner you face competition from Blastoise(who lacks a SR weak), Hitmonchan(resists SR, boltbeam) and Cryogonal(immune to (T)Spikes)

 

[Newmannium]

even as a spinner you face competition from Blastoise(who lacks a SR weak), Hitmonchan(resists SR, boltbeam) and Cryogonal(immune to (T)Spikes)

Better yet, Claydol and Sandslash outshine you as spinners who can set up SR, since they aren't vulnerable to entry hazards and have typings that are much better suited for tanking physical hits.

 

[ParaChomp]

The only reason I'd use Torkoal would be a team using the following theme...

Hide

Co-staring Raticate as Splinter and Bisharp as the Shredder!

 

[Twannes]

The only set for Torkoal would be Physically bulky, but its typing makes it weak to common physical attacks (EQ and Rock slide). Also, this thing only gets recovery in Rest IIRC.

 

[jas61292]

I for one will throw my support behind Shell Smash Torkoal. However I would change the item to White Herb. The main reason to use Koal over another smasher would be his physical bulk. Though, I think the real reason to use him is that unlike other smashers, he has enough bulk not just to survive a hit after the drop to defense, but to be able to take 2 hits at full def, in order to let him get a second Shell Smash in. He might be slow, but at +4 Speed, he is still well outspeeding everything that is unboosted. And with +4 offenses, lots of stuff is dying.

I would still say that it leans more towards a gimmick set than a conventional one, but it certainly has potential.

 

[Axmaster68]

Finally one of my favorite pokemon from Gen 3 will be used, but I agree that the item on the Shell Smash set should be White Herb, as you can then Smash 2 times without losing any stats.

 

[No Luck Involved]

I think Torkoal's main niche is as a Rapid Spin, Yawn, Lava Plume support Pokemon. It honestly is too slow to be using Shell Smash, I would just mention it in passing because it is like mentioning Machamp gets Focus Blast; it's just not viable. I used Torkoal for a while at the start of RU and it isn't too bad, but unfortunately there are better spinners and support Pokemon out there.

 

[Lady Shinki]

Torkoal seems like if it were only 5 base speed higher, it would be a viable threat. Its stab type coverage is PERFECT for this new RU. As it is, I think it would function as a great receiver of boosts from venomoth/etc. sporting nice defense for Rock attacks and a x4 resistance to fire. Giving it some HP and some speed would let it sweep at +1 or +2, as it would have the bulk to take hits. Maybe 96 HP/252 spatk/160 spe with 4 coverage moves or 3 attacks and ChestoRest?

 

[DTC]

Torkal is too slow to even think about shell smash sweeping, honestly if you want to use a shell smash sweeper use Omaster or even Carracosta. Torkal should really only be used for Rapid Spin / Stealth Rock / Lava Plume / Yawn but even that's not that good because of his bad defensive typing that hinders that good physical defense. He's also weak to stealth rock and all grounded entry hazards making it not a very reliable spinners.

 

[Foxy Grandpa]

Torkoal is literally the worst Shell Smasher in the game, even worse than Carracosta...

 

[Maxb]

Torkoal seems like if it were only 5 base speed higher, it would be a viable threat. Its stab type coverage is PERFECT for this new RU. As it is, I think it would function as a great receiver of boosts from venomoth/etc. sporting nice defense for Rock attacks and a x4 resistance to fire. Giving it some HP and some speed would let it sweep at +1 or +2, as it would have the bulk to take hits. Maybe 96 HP/252 spatk/160 spe with 4 coverage moves or 3 attacks and ChestoRest?

Torkoal is just a Fire-type, not a Fire/Rock-type if that's what you thought.

 

[col49]

Though he speed certainly isn't impressive enough to run a Shell Smash set under normal conditions, would it be at all possible to run it in TR? In theory he still manages to be almost insultingly slow even at +2 (hitting 80 speed after a Shell Smash w/negative nature and 0 IVs), and can viably beat down most threats with Fire Blast/Flamethrower, Stone Edge and Hp Grass/Earth Power (with Hp Grass being run over Earth Power mostly due to Quag). I haven't actually gone about testing it mind you, but it seems like it could be worth thinking about.

 

[No Luck Involved]

Though he speed certainly isn't impressive enough to run a Shell Smash set under normal conditions, would it be at all possible to run it in TR? In theory he still manages to be almost insultingly slow even at +2 (hitting 80 speed after a Shell Smash w/negative nature and 0 IVs), and can viably beat down most threats with Fire Blast/Flamethrower, Stone Edge and Hp Grass/Earth Power (with Hp Grass being run over Earth Power mostly due to Quag). I haven't actually gone about testing it mind you, but it seems like it could be worth thinking about.

Shell Smash in Trick Room, that is innovation! Also says everything about Torkoal's speed loool

 

[Lady Shinki]

Torkoal is just a Fire-type, not a Fire/Rock-type if that's what you thought.

Whoops, I was confusing it with magcargo. My bad. :naughty:

edit: Speaking of Magcargo...it's 10 speed higher, and has Rock STAB...still not very useful, but more useful

 

[Makn]

Getting insulting when someone says something that goes against what you think is not proper, nor appreciated.

I was not insulting you, I was just merely responding to your blanket statement you said about the Pokemon, while what you said may be true you need to support your facts is all, and after seeing more of this information I can see how right everybody else is. I was merely challenging your opinion, this is far different from mindless insults.

(Anyways writing away right away atm give me a half hour or so to update the OP)