Serious Using A Pokemon's Usage % as part of Ban Criteria

This sentence doesn't really make any sense because the top Pokemon will always have high usage. Players will use the best Pokemon more than they'll use other Pokemon, and the Pokemon they do use will end up seeing more play.
I guess you don't like the phrasing but you knew what I meant.

In formats where no Pokemon has "high" usage, you get the fantasy of lots of Pokemon being viable, but this isn't actually a good reality - what you get instead is teambuilding being incredibly difficult, because you have to account for too many different threats that all have roughly equal usage. If you can't plan your matchups, you end up just building incredibly linear teams that function regardless of what your opponent brings, and you lose pretty much the entire balance archetype as a result. Higher usage Pokemon help "guide" teambuilding by letting you account for threats you can expect to see more often. In fact, higher usage Pokemon are what allow niche Pokemon to exist! If you're a little on the weak side, but you have a great matchup into the top three Pokemon in the format, you have a strong case to be used. In a meta without high usage Pokemon, being "a little on the weak side" means you just don't get to exist.
I'm not saying excessive variety is a a good thing. There's a balance. Too much variety and there are the problems you mentioned. Too little and it's stale.

Simply using usage as an indicator of whether or not a Pokemon should be banned is also flawed because it fails to acknowledge why a Pokemon might have high usage. A lot of OU's bulky Grounds have maintained high usage because they are strong defensive answers to large parts of the metagame, but especially to themselves. Think about Lando-T - would you not want a Pokemon with Intimidate, an Earthquake immunity, and a Rock neutrality of your own to answer your opponent's Lando-T? Consider instead a Pokemon like Iron Valiant - it's not really a good answer to itself because it hits itself super effective, so you can't reliably switch your own Iron Valiant into your opponent's. High usage sometimes just indicates a strong mirror.
Since it is a factor, there would likely be no threshold for bannability based just on usage percent, and it would depend on other factors like uncompetitiveness, brokenness, and luck-inducing.
High usage contributes to staleness. Also, brokenness fails to acknowledge luck, and luck fails to acknowledge brokenness, but those are still factors. High usage would just be a factor.

If you're interested in how usage could reflect on bannability, you should try to come up with some objective measures - like "X percent usage" or "Y percent more use than the next most common Pokemon." This proposal is unlikely to come to fruition if you can't provide any actual methods, and it just looks like "think about it :)" without them.
There were no objective rules that said that Arena Trap and Shed Tail should be banned. They were looked at individually and banned.
There are no objective measures for brokenness either. Has X checks and Y counters? It doesn't include any details
 
Last edited:
  • Haha
Reactions: cat
Keep them so grocery workers everywhere get to claim free shit and save their money.
What grocery store are you working at where you get to keep expired stuff for free? The one time I worked at a grocery store, we were expected to take expired goods out back to the dumpsters, stab them a bunch of times with a metal rake to puncture any packaging, and then pour cleaning solution all over them so people wouldn't go dumpster diving for them.
 
Are there any specific examples where it would have been useful to consider a Pokemon's usage when discussing whether it should have been banned?
Lando-T had 70% usage in USUM at one point. That may be for the whole ladder, but not for top level. Top level shows successful usage. If it was top level, then that means when used well, Lando-T stagnates your team's choice of ground type. That doesn't mean Lando-T should get banned, but the higher the usage, the lower the threshold needed for other factors to get it banned.

Dugtrio has a good ability, so the threshold for it's stats to get it banned is low. However, it's still not low enough to get it banned in Ubers.
 
Last edited:
What grocery store are you working at where you get to keep expired stuff for free? The one time I worked at a grocery store, we were expected to take expired goods out back to the dumpsters, stab them a bunch of times with a metal rake to puncture any packaging, and then pour cleaning solution all over them so people wouldn't go dumpster diving for them.
Alright but like are they REALLY gonna fire you if you grab a few frozen pizzas off the top before you burn em
 

Arcticblast

Trans rights are human rights
is a Forum Moderatoris a Tiering Contributoris a Social Media Contributor Alumnusis a Senior Staff Member Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Simulator Moderator Alumnusis a Past SPL Champion
So, uhh, this line took me from mildly preferring diverse metas to majorly preferring it. I may not personally like Hyper Offense in Pokemon, but a dislike of balanced builds runs deeper. The entire point of a limit on how much you can put in a team/rpg character/army list/whatever is so that you can't be excellent at everything, and you're telling me that not having a clear top pick also contributes to that goal. I would welcome "commit to something" as a game rule in more than just Monotype.
No team is excellent at everything - balance teams try to find a, well, balance where they are good enough into everything that they don't have too many bad matchups, but they don't have a ton of incredible ones either. Think lots of 60/40 and 40/60 matchups, almost nothing more polarized than that. They have enough juice in the tank to not just fall apart, but actually winning generally requires the pilot to have good decision making skills; they can not lose in the teambuilder, but winning and not losing are different things. They aren't winning strictly out of the teambuilder, so they need to outplay to win. The extreme ends of the spectrum tend to just say "I will sacrifice my [damage/survivability] to buff my [survivability/damage] to the extreme and attempt to beat every matchup by [overwhelming it with sheer damage / being unkillable and winning via attrition]."

When all you have is a few degrees of hyper offense and stall in the format, games are going to play out more or less the same way every time. Hyper offense mirrors will be decided on speed stats and "which player gets momentum first," hyper offense vs stall will always just be hard aggressor vs defender matchups that usually put the onus on the stall player to make the correct plays, and stall mirrors will play out... idk how stall mirrors play out any more, I haven't seriously followed singles in years. Whichever player has more time to play 400 turns of Regenerator pivoting, I guess.

Balance hinges on knowing what the meta it's trying to play into looks like. If the meta is completely unpredictable, balance cannot exist, and a format where balance doesn't exist encourages linear gameplay. You're welcome to not enjoy balance, but trying to remove it entirely will make for a largely worse gameplay experience.

(There's an argument to be made that balance will eventually force itself into existence anyway, because that "only hyper offense and stall" format will eventually crystallize around the Pokemon with the highest stats, at which point you can start building balance because you can expect to see those high-statted Pokemon in more games. That isn't what I'm here to talk about, but it's a neat thing to think about.)

I guess you don't like the phrasing but you knew what I meant.
No! I don't! Would you happen to have some specific numbers? Is 20% usage too much? 40%? 60%?
Lando-T had 70% usage in USUM at one point.
Hey look, a number!

If you asked me if 70% usage in a modern format is too much, I would agree with you in pretty much every case. However, I still think that this statistic needs to be contextualized. Was Lando-T usage inflated because it's too good, or is it just a convenient answer? Does Lando-T's presence make the format worse, or are you just bored of seeing it?

High usage contributes to staleness.
see above

There were no objective rules that said that Arena Trap and Shed Tail should be banned. They were looked at individually and banned.
There are no objective measures for brokenness either. Has X checks and Y counters? It doesn't include any details
I can put Arena Trap into my teambuilder. I cannot put usage into my teambuilder. Usage isn't a trait of a Pokemon, it's a statistic. An observation. You can say that Arena Trap is broken because it unfairly restricts the options available to the opponent and allows the user to set up one-sided game states too easily. You can't say anything like this about high usage because it's not a thing a Pokemon has. I can point to specific reasons that I believe Mewtwo is broken, because Mewtwo is a part of the game and can be banned. I can't say "60% usage is broken," because that's not a thing I can actually ban. The best I can do is say "hey, this Pokemon has incredibly high usage," and examine what might be causing that high usage. It might be a result of a Pokemon being broken, or it might just be a result of a Pokemon having broad applications.

I don't want to totally ignore the idea that incredibly high usage Pokemon can make a meta feel stale because you always see the same Pokemon. I have my own reasons for disliking SS Doubles OU (and would attempt to make a LOT of ill-intentioned bans if put in charge of it). However, as a former tier leader and a (mostly) normal human being, I understand that this isn't what Smogon does. Pokemon are banned when they are broken or uncompetitive. Usage does not make a Pokemon broken; it is at best a result of a Pokemon being broken. Hell, sometimes high usage might even point to something different being broken - if I remember correctly, way back in the Deoxys-Defense days of BW OU, Pokemon with strong hazard stack matchups had inflated usage because they could counteract the very broken Deoxys-Defense, who was sitting all the way in ninth place in ladder usage.

The one time I worked at a grocery store, we were expected to take expired goods out back to the dumpsters, stab them a bunch of times with a metal rake to puncture any packaging, and then pour cleaning solution all over them so people wouldn't go dumpster diving for them.
when I say "eat the rich" I am not using a metaphor
 

pulsar512b

ss ou fangirl
is a Pre-Contributor
if I remember correctly, way back in the Deoxys-Defense days of BW OU, Pokemon with strong hazard stack matchups had inflated usage because they could counteract the very broken Deoxys-Defense, who was sitting all the way in ninth place in ladder usage.
this is tangential but wanted to poke in and say another example of a somewhat similar spot was in SS OU pre-spectrier ban. every team basically was forced to have a dark or a normal type during that era, leading to a spectrier ban, despite spectrier being either bottom half of top 10 or not even in it during that time iirc

(it would be an overstatement to say spectrier was the only reason - dragapult didnt help, but it was definitely the main factor, and w/ it gone people were free to deal w pult in other ways)

(tho honestly you could make a case for pult being broken but thats for a different PR thread)
 
Posting this here as there was no response to my request to post in Policy Review.

I am proposing that we use a Pokemon's usage % at high/top level as a factor in ban criteria. Since it is a factor, there would likely be no threshold for bannability based just on usage percent, and it would depend on other factors like uncompetitiveness, brokenness, and luck-inducing. Even uncompetitive mechanics usually don't have a threshold for bannability by themselves: The ability Arena Trap was banned in SS OU, but Arena Trap Dugtrio is legal in SS Ubers because its other attributes are terrible, and Dugtrio is only C- rank there.

I am suggesting this change because high usage increases staleness, which affects enjoyability. Enjoyability should be a top priority for a game most people don't play for money or to make content. The reason we shouldn't usually make decisions based on enjoyability because it is hard to do so fairly, not because it is not important. As an example, something we can't nerf or ban for enjoyability reasons is Stall, even if most players don't enjoy using or playing it. This is because there is justifiable reason to enjoy Stall and skill involved, including teambuilding to counter stallbreaking methods, playing against Stallbreakers, and Stallbreaking against Stall. I can't think of a good reason why you'd want the top Pokemon to have high usage percent. You'd have to deal with less matchups, but that's not a positive reason by any means as it demotes skill.
We don't ban based on usage criteria, we demote them to new metagames based around usage. What you should really be demanding is that Smogon extend its tiering downward until we reach a 6 Pokemon metagame where everything has 100% usage
 
No! I don't! Would you happen to have some specific numbers? Is 20% usage too much? 40%? 60%?
In formats where no Pokemon has "high" usage, you get the fantasy of lots of Pokemon being viable, but this isn't actually a good reality - what you get instead is teambuilding being incredibly difficult, because you have to account for too many different threats that all have roughly equal usage. If you can't plan your matchups, you end up just building incredibly linear teams that function regardless of what your opponent brings, and you lose pretty much the entire balance archetype as a result. Higher usage Pokemon help "guide" teambuilding by letting you account for threats you can expect to see more often. In fact, higher usage Pokemon are what allow niche Pokemon to exist! If you're a little on the weak side, but you have a great matchup into the top three Pokemon in the format, you have a strong case to be used. In a meta without high usage Pokemon, being "a little on the weak side" means you just don't get to exist.
The second quote shows you know what I meant by high usage. You talk about 'no Pokemon has "high" usage', and 'lots of Pokemon being viable' without specific numbers, so you must have some concept in mind.

Loosely, I'll say that if every mon has below 20% usage, no Pokemon has high usage.
 
Last edited:
nope sorry, I was number 3

awyp (formerly andviet) I graciously defer to you as the true expert on matters such as these
yeah im the current championship and im looking to be back to back (but i know it wont happen cus we need a new face to represent)
Fellas, respectively, we're going to need you to figure this one the fuck out for the sake of the community. Payroll is being run tomorrow and if this isn't solved I might have to put in a word with Tom about withholding some checks.
 
Personally I find it hard for a meta to become stale when it's changing up constantly due to DLC releases.

Maybe it's because I don't have time to grind PS like I used to, or maybe it's because I play more volatile lower tiers, but I feel like, if anything, the game changes at such a speed that metas don't even get to be fully explored.

The only metas that are "solved" are probably gens 1 and 2, and even then we'll see experimentation and shifts in those metas from time to time.

Banning to keep things from being "stale" seems like a weak excuse to me, when the way the games are built leads to the game inevitably changing.
 

Camden

Hey, it's me!
is a Battle Simulator Admin Alumnusis a Social Media Contributor Alumnusis a Senior Staff Member Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnus
What grocery store are you working at where you get to keep expired stuff for free? The one time I worked at a grocery store, we were expected to take expired goods out back to the dumpsters, stab them a bunch of times with a metal rake to puncture any packaging, and then pour cleaning solution all over them so people wouldn't go dumpster diving for them.
I work at a small town store whose backend is handled by a larger chain. When food reaches its expiry date we tend to either throw it out, have it credited and returned, or donated to a local food bank, but a lot of it we'll take for ourselves which we just let slide for some products that would be trashed anyway.
 
it seems that usage is more of a symptom, so we can include how good a mon is (in terms of utility, not just brokenness) in ban criteria. The high utility leads to the mon being used often. It may not make the whole meta stale, but it makes the role the mon does kind of stale. (ex. Lando-T stagnates your choice of ground type)
 
Last edited:

Chou Toshio

Over9000
is an Artist Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Top Smogon Media Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Simulator Moderator Alumnus
Personally, I want us as a community to remember the incredible work we've done in the past to solve complex problems, like automating processes to improve competitiveness/tiering. I think we should get great minds together and start on an algorithm that can calculate the best tiering decisions for Pokemon that reach 50% usage, similar to the linked work above. Let's set a project schedule to deliver the new algorithm by the end of March.
 

BIG ASHLEY

ashley
is a Community Contributor
Personally, I want us as a community to remember the incredible work we've done in the past to solve complex problems, like automating processes to improve competitiveness/tiering. I think we should get great minds together and start on an algorithm that can calculate the best tiering decisions for Pokemon that reach 50% usage, similar to the linked work above. Let's set a project schedule to deliver the new algorithm by the end of March.
i give it 50/50 odds that op is younger than that thread
 
in my professional opinion (i run a solomod and i'm majoring in data nerd stuff, so CLEARLY i am the most qualified person here to talk about the data-driven methodology used by our tiering) we should ban all the mons i dont like
isn't this how it works currently anyway if you're a big tournament player
 

Users Who Are Viewing This Thread (Users: 1, Guests: 0)

Top