Projects USUM NU Teambuilding Competition (Round 5: Zangoose - Submission Stage)

#77
Voting for Round FOUR has ended.... and our winner is:
Stan Soojung!

Klinklang @ Steelium Z
Ability: Clear Body
EVs: 252 Atk / 40 SpD / 216 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Shift Gear
- Magnet Rise
- Gear Grind
- Return

Xatu @ Rocky Helmet
Ability: Magic Bounce
Happiness: 0
EVs: 244 HP / 176 Def / 32 SpD / 56 Spe
Bold Nature
- U-turn
- Psychic
- Grass Knot
- Roost

Druddigon @ Rocky Helmet
Ability: Mold Breaker
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Impish Nature
- Glare
- Stealth Rock
- Dragon Tail
- Earthquake

Garbodor @ Toxic Plate
Ability: Aftermath
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Spikes
- Gunk Shot
- Drain Punch
- Toxic Spikes

Delphox @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Blaze
Happiness: 0
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Fire Blast
- Psychic
- Grass Knot
- Dazzling Gleam

Whimsicott @ Life Orb
Ability: Prankster
Happiness: 0
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Giga Drain
- Moonblast
- Psychic
- Fake Tears

Congratulations to this round's winner who now is inducted in the Hall Of Fame!

Round Five is coming soon - stay tuned!
 
#78
Round Five: Delphox


Honestly I picked this awesome mon because I was playing around with some wild Wishtect Mystical Fire set which i really thought was fun so go ham :)
I will give until Sunday, November 11, 11:00 PM GMT to submit.
All teams will be locked at this time.
Then the voting stage will begin.
 
#79


Ok I'm awake really late and I get on to see this so if there are typos or some messed up EVs don't point them out I'll fix them so chill I'm sick as hell right now



Ear Fuzz (Delphox) @ Grassium Z
Ability: Blaze
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Attack
-Calm Mind
-Fire Blast
-Psyshock
-Grass Knot

Return of Cotton (Whimsicott) @ Life Orb
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
-Giga Drain
-Moonblast
-Psychic
-Encore

It's Still Lee (Hitmonlee) @ Black Belt
Ability: Reckless
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
-High Jump Kick
-Rapid Spin
-Knock Off
-Mach Punch

DeVito (Garbodor) @ Rocky Helmet
Ability: Aftermath
EVs: 252 HP / 144 Attack / 56 Def / 56 SpD
Adamant Nature
-Gunk Shot
-Drain Punch
-Toxic Spikes
-Toxic

Ocean Man (Vaporeon) @ Leftovers
Ability: Water Absorb
EVs: 252 HP / 244 SpA / 12 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Attack
-Scald
-Haze
-Ice Beam
-Toxic

ew Vanilla (Vanilluxe) @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Snow Warning
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
-Freeze-Dry
-Flash Cannon
-Blizzard
-Hidden Power Ground


I prefer the Calm Mind Delphox as a late game sweeper over Scarf or the Mystical Fire set. It pretty much destroys anything that doesn't run Sucker Punch or is Scarfed once it has +1 or +2 set up, it runs Grass Knot and Grassium Z to nuke Seismitoad, Regirock, the Slow brothers, and Rhydon. I put Whimsicott in as it can take the Water, Dark, Ground, and Rock Types that plague Phox, and Phox can take on Poison, Ice, Steel and resists other Fire Types pretty well. Hitmonlee was added in order to be a revenge killer and to spin away hazards for Phox, it can also bop many things with High Jump Kick and Knock Off. Garbodor is my spike setting tank that Toxics annoying walls and switch into revenge killers to get Rocky Helmet or Aftermath damage. Haze Vaporeon is a pretty underrated set up killer, especially against stuff like Omastar and Calm Mind Slowbro where it can absorb Water moves, it can also Scald or Toxic them to make sure they won't try to do it again. I threw in Vanilluxe to put an end to the rare rain teams that hurt Phox and that Vanil can eat Flying Types like Xatu, it also has Explosion just for a quick suicide that will safely put something on the field


edit: ok after a lot of consideration I've decided to change Garbodor's spikes to tspikes, put in Freeze Dry over Blizzard on Vanilluxe, and give Garbodor just Def EVs instead of Def and SpD EVs. Nothing much just have had more success with them.

ha I meant to replace Explosion with Freeze Dry rip
 
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#80


Delphox @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Blaze
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Fire Blast
- Psychic
- Dazzling Gleam
- Trick

Guzzlord @ Choice Specs
Ability: Beast Boost
EVs: 252 SpA / 160 SpD / 96 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Dark Pulse
- Sludge Bomb
- Fire Blast
- Draco Meteor

Virizion @ Rockium Z
Ability: Justified
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Leaf Blade
- Swords Dance
- Close Combat
- Stone Edge

Golbat @ Eviolite
Ability: Infiltrator
EVs: 252 HP / 128 Def / 128 SpD
Impish Nature
- Brave Bird
- Roost
- Taunt
- Toxic

Cryogonal @ Leftovers
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Rapid Spin
- Freeze-Dry
- Ice Beam
- Recover

Seismitoad @ Leftovers
Ability: Water Absorb
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 Def
Impish Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Stealth Rock
- Scald
- Toxic
- Protect



I thank the guys from the NU room for the help in setting up this team, I decided to start with Delphox Scarf due to the fact that he pressed hard with his Stabs, I put Dazzling Gleam in place of Grass Knot to apply more pressure on Dragon and Dark Types, seeing that Houndoom , Slowbro press this set I decided to put Guzzlord to check both, Virizion for Water pokemons, Rockium Z to get vileplumes, Seismitoad enters as my setter, Golbat to handle some fight moves and finally Cryogonal as Spinner and tbm as a possible ice resist, taking in view that the team suffers for ice types
 
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#81


Delphox @ Choice Scarf Ability: Blaze EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe Timid Nature - Fire Blast - Psychic - Dazzling Gleam - Trick

Guzzlord @ Choice Specs Ability: Beast Boost EVs: 252 SpA / 160 SpD / 96 Spe Modest Nature IVs: 0 Atk - Dark Pulse - Sludge Bomb - Fire Blast - Draco Meteor

Virizion @ Rockium Z Ability: Justified EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe Jolly Nature - Leaf Blade - Swords Dance - Close Combat - Stone Edge

Golbat @ Eviolite Ability: Infiltrator EVs: 252 HP / 128 Def / 128 SpD Impish Nature - Brave Bird - Roost - Taunt - Toxic

Cryogonal @ Leftovers Ability: Levitate EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe Timid Nature IVs: 0 Atk - Rapid Spin - Freeze-Dry - Ice Beam - Recover

Seismitoad @ Leftovers Ability: Water Absorb EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 Def Impish Nature IVs: 0 Atk - Stealth Rock - Scald - Toxic - Protect


I thank the guys from the NU room for the help in setting up this team, I decided to start with Delphox Scarf due to the fact that he pressed hard with his Stabs, I put Dazzling Gleam in place of Grass Knot to apply more pressure on Dragon and Dark Types, seeing that Houndoom , Slowbro press this set I decided to put Guzzlord to check both, Virizion for Water pokemons, Rockium Z to get vileplumes, Seismitoad enters as my setter, Golbat to handle some fight moves and finally Cryogonal as Spinner and tbm as a possible ice resist, taking in view that the team suffers for ice types
can you supply a real importable?
 

Finchinator

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#84


Mesprit @ Fairium Z
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Stealth Rock
- Thunderbolt
- Dazzling Gleam
- Grass Knot

Delphox @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Blaze
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Fire Blast
- Psychic
- Grass Knot
- Trick

Hitmonlee @ Fist Plate
Ability: Reckless
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Mach Punch
- Rapid Spin
- Knock Off
- High Jump Kick

Seismitoad @ Leftovers
Ability: Water Absorb
EVs: 248 HP / 32 Atk / 216 Def / 12 Spe
Relaxed Nature
- Protect
- Scald
- Earthquake
- Toxic

Audino-Mega @ Audinite
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 248 HP / 252 SpD / 8 Spe
Careful Nature
- Wish
- Toxic
- Knock Off
- Protect

Klinklang @ Leftovers
Ability: Clear Body
EVs: 68 HP / 252 Atk / 188 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Shift Gear
- Substitute
- Return
- Gear Grind


This team is relatively standard, barring the Mesprit set, but I have personally find it to be quite effective. The core of the team is certainly the offensive synergy between the Mesprit and the Delphox, as I outline here, but there is also a pretty generic defensive backbone integrated into the team as well. I find that you need Mesprit to do exceedingly well and to Trick the right things with Delphox and cripple the right things with Audino in order to win late game with Klinklang or Hitmonlee against stallish builds, but overall the team does quite well against most variants of offense and balance. I suppose teams with Vileplume that have Klinklang fully dealt with and an actual counter to Trick Delphox to be irksome, too, but that's a pretty specific combination of things. Anyway, Klinklang is the team's win condition, Audino wears things down and cripples them when paired with this Seismitoad, and Hitmonlee is there for hazard control and hard hitting on the Physical side (also decent speed control w/ Mach and highish base speed). I enjoy using this team when not facing people who already know the Mesprit set, so I figured I would share it as it fits this round's Pokemon and I already posted the Mesprit set/used it in a few tournament matches.
 
#85
This project will now be resurrected from the dead!

Since the drop of USUM we will be redoing Round 5, thank you to everybody who submitted teams and I apologize that nothing happened because of my hiatus from NU.

Also, important notice: Yoshizilla315 will now co-host this competition with me, so give him a warm welcome with great teams when the theme for next round is announced!
 
#86
Round 5.2: Zangoose!

Durza and I decided to pick this Pokemon because it's the Pokemon with one of the biggest additions to it's arsenal, being Belly Drum. This move shot it up so far, it landed in A+ on the Viability Rankings. Therefore, we would like to see what the NU community has got in terms of building with this Pokemon :).
Deadline is Friday (12 / 8 / 17)
Have fun! :toast:
 
#87

Uxie @ Light Clay
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 Spe
Impish Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Stealth Rock
- Light Screen
- Reflect
- Memento

Zangoose @ Sitrus Berry
Ability: Immunity
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Belly Drum
- Quick Attack
- Close Combat
- Knock Off

Sneasel @ Choice Band
Ability: Inner Focus
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Knock Off
- Icicle Crash
- Ice Shard
- Pursuit

Whimsicott @ Life Orb
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Moonblast
- Giga Drain
- Psychic
- Memento

Hitmonlee @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Reckless
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- High Jump Kick
- Knock Off
- Earthquake
- Rapid Spin

Type: Null @ Eviolite
Ability: Battle Armor
Happiness: 0
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
- Rest
- Sleep Talk
- U-turn
- Frustration

So like yeah I don't play this tier but I've been wanting to get into it kinda and this is the first NU team i've ever made in GEN 7, aaand idk shit about the meta soo like... yeah. Basically most of my fav mon are scrubass mons such as Zangoose so I've been wanting to play NU and then when i joined the room and the poll was "does zangoose deserve a suspect?" or something like that i was like "OH SHIT IM BUILDING WITH ZANGOOSE!" So yeah heres my attempt, idk wtf im doing but basically it obvi revolves around Zangoose and I personally hate playing HO and have always been a balance player so I went down that route. I've been using memento support on setup sweepers for ages so I knew Whimsicott would be cool with Zangoose and a buncha other things to put dents into the opposing squad such as the band Sneasel, and scarf Lee, whilst having something that can reliably switch in on a lot of things like Type: Null (which btw is one of the coolest mons ive seen in ages). Also obviously I need a rocker n shit cuz u know... rocks are pretty mandatory on any competitive team and I originally had Druddigon just cause wtf why not, but then played against my bff Brandon and he hit me wit the dual screens so I said fuck it and brought the dual screens and badabing here we are with a trashass team but I'll take what I can get, first legit NU team ever, pls dont be mean :,(.
 
#88
Gosh dang it Durza you up and bamboozled me...


haha these are the best Gen 7 mon images I could dig up (unintentional sand pun)
also apparently they're laggy as hell

Don't Know Cut (Zangoose) @ Toxic Orb
Ability: Toxic Boost
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
-Facade
-Quick Attack
-Knock Off
-Close Combat

Fort Knox (Palossand) @ Leftovers
Ability: Water Compaction
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
IVs: 0 Atk
Calm Nature
-Stealth Rock
-Shadow Ball
-Shore Up
-Earth Power

Stonk (Skuntank) @ Black Sludge
Ability: Aftermath
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
-Pursuit
-Sucker Punch
-Defog
-Poison Jab

Slowest of Bros (Slowbro) @ Leftovers
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpA
IVs: 0 Atk
Modest Nature
-Scald
-Psyshock
-Slack Off
-Calm Mind

Pink (Silvally-Fairy) @ Fairy Memory
Ability: RKS System
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpA
Gentle Nature
-Multi-Attack
-Flamethrower
-Parting Shot
-Thunder Wave

Mankey (Passimian) @ Life Orb
Ability: Reciever
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
-Taunt
-Close Combat
-Knock Off
-Gunk Shot


I just started off with a pretty ordinary Toxic Orb Facade set, nothing too crazy (I personally heavily dislike the Belly Drum set, I usually find myself getting Taunted or taken down below 50% by faster mons and it is cleaned up by priority. Also its just Encore bait from Whims or Liepard, but Belly Drum is a lot more effective at doing damage than the Orb Facade set.). I've been using Palossand A LOT lately, and this set has been working quite well for me at least. Sets up hazards, spinblocks, recovers HP. All around just a great defensive mon. Skunktank is the Pursuit trapping Defogger that can help take out Whimsicott, Florges, and Delphox with its STAB. Slowbro is the generic wall with Calm Mind to set up sweeps, it also it also provides a Water resist the team needed. Fairyvally was added to nuke Druddigon, Hitmonlee, and Guzzlord, and Parting Shot is a great pivot move to help Slowbro to come set up or other teammates for a safe switch in. Passimian is another win condition that can hit Steel, Ghost, and Rock types better than Palossand, and he can Taunt set up and slower Defoggers

Yah this isn't my best team but it isn't my worst (looks at Z-Growth Chloro Whimsicott)
Yah they are on low ladder cuz I'm pretty low ladder but... its better than nothing. Also they aren't very great replays

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7nu-669386616

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7nu-669396929 (Only won with little to no HP so...)

I'll try to get some more soon
 
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#90


Zangoose @ Toxic Orb
Ability: Toxic Boost
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Quick Attack
- Close Combat
- Knock Off
- Facade

Palossand @ Colbur Berry
Ability: Water Compaction
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpA
Serious Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Shadow Ball
- Stealth Rock
- Earth Power
- Shore Up

Houndoom @ Darkinium Z
Ability: Flash Fire
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Hasty Nature
- Fire Blast
- Dark Pulse
- Nasty Plot
- Flame Charge

Golbat @ Eviolite
Ability: Infiltrator
EVs: 252 HP / 128 Def / 128 SpD
Impish Nature
- Toxic
- Brave Bird
- Defog
- Roost

Hariyama @ Assault Vest
Ability: Thick Fat
EVs: 252 Atk / 108 Def / 112 SpD / 36 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Close Combat
- Knock Off
- Bullet Punch
- Earthquake

Whimsicott @ Life Orb
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Energy Ball
- Moonblast
- Encore
- Psychic


I put Zangoose Toxic Boost for finding it more effective in battle, to cover its weakness Fight decided to put Palossand Bold, put a Colbur Berry in order to weaken the damage Knock off and other Dark Moves, Houndoom was set to prevent Delphox from taking advantage of the team and with the Z Move function, Golbat enters as my Defogger and my other barrier option, Whimsicott coming in as my second special attacker option, and finally Hariyama Thick Fat to be able to cover the disadvantage of the team to Ice and also as second physical attacker
 
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#95
im just confused why people are using toxic orb zangoose
Well I guess I'll explain this again, I personally heavily dislike Belly Drum sets, especially when your as frail as Zangoose, specifically because 1. It's Encore and Taunt Bait from Whims and Liepard. 2. It's a must to carry Memento or Parting Shot to actual give it a chance to set up cuz once again Zangoose is frail. 3. It's easy to just put it down with priority even at 75%. I prefer Toxic Orb Zangoose since it doesnt have these issues as bad. I will admit that Belly Drum is a better set than Toxic Orb. Toxic Orb kills itself and doesnt do good enough damage. I will say this again: Belly Drum is a better set, but it's a lot more risky. It is personal experience and preference that makes me use Toxic Orb Facade. Sorry if this turned out to be an essay.
 
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#96
Well I guess I'll explain this again, I personally heavily dislike Belly Drum sets, especially when your as frail as Zangoose, specifically because 1. It's Encore and Taunt Bait from Whims and Liepard. 2. It's a must to carry Memento or Parting Shot to actual give it a chance to set up cuz once again Zangoose is frail. 3. It's easy to just put it down with priority even at 75%. I prefer Toxic Orb Zangoose since it doesnt have these issues as bad. I will admit that Belly Drum is a better set than Toxic Orb. Toxic Orb kills itself and doesnt do good enough damage. I will say this again: Belly Drum is a better set, but it's a lot more risky. It is personal experience and preference that makes me use Toxic Orb Facade. Sorry if this turned out to be an essay.
Well, Whismicott is often not running Encore, especially when there are way better answers to Zangoose that you could run. Also, Liepard isn't run that much, usually it's used as a Rain setter if it's used at all. Most Ghosts check it well, although Mismagius is required to run a z-move different from Never-Ending Nightmare. Zangoose being frail isn't really an issue if you give it Parting Shot or Memento support, as well as if you put potential checks in Quick Attack range. Oftentimes, you won't even die from priority, even Mach Punch from Choice Scarf Hitmonlee. So, I can't really agree with the points you make in your argument. Zangoose will fail if you don't give it the right support, but if you do, the flaws you list above, and even some of the ones I list, won't really be a problem.
 
#97
Well, Whismicott is often not running Encore, especially when there are way better answers to Zangoose that you could run. Also, Liepard isn't run that much, usually it's used as a Rain setter if it's used at all. Most Ghosts check it well, although Mismagius is required to run a z-move different from Never-Ending Nightmare. Zangoose being frail isn't really an issue if you give it Parting Shot or Memento support, as well as if you put potential checks in Quick Attack range. Oftentimes, you won't even die from priority, even Mach Punch from Choice Scarf Hitmonlee. So, I can't really agree with the points you make in your argument. Zangoose will fail if you don't give it the right support, but if you do, the flaws you list above, and even some of the ones I list, won't really be a problem.
Ok I don't want to argue in the middle of the voting phase so I'm just gonna stop after this.
Whimsicott runs Encore pretty darn often and if it doesn't I must be really lucky finding them.
I didn't want to portray that Liepard was a relevant counter to BD Zangoose, I wanted to say that Liepard can be used to lock Zangoose into BD if the situation calls for it. I know Liepard can only find a use on weather teams, but I'm still noting it as a threat to BD Zangoose.
Yah no in a situation with Scarf Jolly Hitmonlee vs Zangoose with no hazards and Zangoose already Belly Drum'd (aka its at 75%)
252 Atk Hitmonlee Mach Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Zangoose: 188-224 (65.5 - 78%)
Yes this is a small KO chance. But we all know Black Belt and Life Orb Hitmonlee is also an often thing to run, and if that Scarf Hitmonlee had Adamant instead of Jolly for whatever reason that Zangoose is most likely gone. I'm not saying Toxic Orb won't get shut down by priority, but it isn't shut down as bad.
252+ Atk Black Belt Hitmonlee Mach Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Zangoose: 248-294 (86.4 - 102.4%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO
Even with poison damage Zangoose can survive this situation.
Don't take my previous comments as a way to devalue Belly Drum. Belly Drum is a lot more effective set. I just find BD to be too much of a high risk high reward option
 
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#98
Ok I don't want to argue in the middle of the voting phase so I'm just gonna stop after this.
Whimsicott runs Encore pretty darn often and if it doesn't I must be really lucky finding them.
I didn't want to portray that Liepard was a relevant counter to BD Zangoose, I wanted to say that Liepard can be used to lock Zangoose into BD if the situation calls for it. I know Liepard can only find a use on weather teams, but I'm still noting it as a threat to BD Zangoose.
Yah no in a situation with Scarf Jolly Hitmonlee vs Zangoose with no hazards and Zangoose already Belly Drum'd (aka its at 75%)
252 Atk Hitmonlee Mach Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Zangoose: 188-224 (65.5 - 78%)
Yes this is a small KO chance. But we all know Black Belt and Life Orb Hitmonlee is also an often thing to run, and if that Scarf Hitmonlee had Adamant instead of Jolly for whatever reason that Zangoose is most likely gone. I'm not saying Toxic Orb won't get shut down by priority, but it isn't shut down as bad.
252+ Atk Black Belt Hitmonlee Mach Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Zangoose: 248-294 (86.4 - 102.4%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO
Even with poison damage Zangoose can survive this situation.
Don't take my previous comments as a way to devalue Belly Drum. Belly Drum is a lot more effective set. I just find BD to be too much of a high risk high reward option
This is the kind of discussion we're looking for in this thread - feel free to continue, this is open to everybody!

First of all, you can't list an irrelevant Pokemon as a threat to Zangoose. Yeah Golduck is a threat to Primal Groudon in Ubers but it doesn't make it relevant or noteworthy at all, nor diminish Primal Groudon's prowess.

Second, Hitmonlee doesn't run adamant EVER, and as far as I know it doesn't run black belt. Even if it did, its not relevant since Zangoose outspeeds it and KOs it with Quick Attack, making your second calc completely irrelevant. The problem with toxic orb is that it doesn't get the chance to set up and sweep because of the toxic damage hitting it so fast. Thats what makes it so dangerous - the most common forms of the rare priority in NU really don't affect Zangoose. Especially with the power drop it needs multiple facades to KO bulky pokemon unlike Belly Drum - while its not getting continually worn down like Toxic Orb.

Toxic Orb Zangoose has been a thing before USUM, and it was almost never used because of these above problems.
 
#99
This is the kind of discussion we're looking for in this thread - feel free to continue, this is open to everybody!

First of all, you can't list an irrelevant Pokemon as a threat to Zangoose. Yeah Golduck is a threat to Primal Groudon in Ubers but it doesn't make it relevant or noteworthy at all, nor diminish Primal Groudon's prowess.

Second, Hitmonlee doesn't run adamant EVER, and as far as I know it doesn't run black belt. Even if it did, its not relevant since Zangoose outspeeds it and KOs it with Quick Attack, making your second calc completely irrelevant. The problem with toxic orb is that it doesn't get the chance to set up and sweep because of the toxic damage hitting it so fast. Thats what makes it so dangerous - the most common forms of the rare priority in NU really don't affect Zangoose. Especially with the power drop it needs multiple facades to KO bulky pokemon unlike Belly Drum - while its not getting continually worn down like Toxic Orb.

Toxic Orb Zangoose has been a thing before USUM, and it was almost never used because of these above problems.
haha my entire argument is ridiculous I forgot Zangoose outspeeds non Scarf Hitmonlee. I'm an idiot. I'm gonna raise the white flag and accept my defeat in the argument. I need to stop making dumb arguments