USUM NU Viability Rankings

#1

art by Regime
Welcome to the official ULTRA Sun & Moon NU Viability Rankings thread. This thread will be used by the community in order to rank all usable pokémon in the Neverused Tier. You're encouraged to civilly post your thoughts and opinions on the various Pokemon that are usable in NU and what rank they should fall under. The general idea of the topic is to rank each NU Pokemon under "rankings" that go in descending order.

To make ranking these Pokemon easier the NU Council has come up with a list of positive and negative attributes each Pokemon should meet to fit a certain rank. Positives: Threat level, Splashability, Consistent, Effect on the metagame, Reliability. Negatives: Passive, Outclassed, Weak to Hazards, Speed, General Bulk, Matchup. However, something to remember while ranking is that filling criteria is not a black and white process. Pokemon A might have a stronger effect on the metagame compared to Pokemon B, but Pokemon B might still influence teambuilding a lot. Take into account the varying degrees of these criteria as you reflect on a nomination.

Current VR Council:
Hootie
Kiyo
Blast
Disjunction
Eternally
Finchinator
Earth
meepsvictory
Punchshroom
quziel
Rapture

S Rank:
Pokemon in this rank fill all of the main criteria and then some with a strong proficiency in one or more of the positive traits. If a Pokemon in this rank has any downsides, they are usually tame or eclipsed by their obvious assets.

S
Delphox
Emboar
Sneasel
Whimsicott​

A Rank:
Pokemon in this rank may fill the majority or all of the positive criteria. These Pokemon may have one major or a handful of minor negative characteristics that could set them back.


A+
Audino-Mega
Druddigon
Rotom-C
Vanilluxe
Xatu
Zangoose

A
Garbodor
Hitmonlee
Klinklang
Seismitoad
Slowbro
Virizion

A-
Braviary
Guzzlord
Houndoom
Mismagius
Piloswine
Samurott
Sigilyph
Steelix
Vikavolt
Vileplume
Vivillon
B Rank:
Pokemon in this rank do an alright job fulfilling criteria, albeit not as convincingly. These Pokemon will have some issues you should be accounting for while building your team.

B+
Cryogonal
Froslass
Medicham
Mesprit
Rotom
Rhydon
Sceptile
Slowking
Toxicroak
Type: Null
Vaporeon


B
Accelgor
Dodrio
Exeggutor-Alola
Hariyama
Jellicent
Malamar
Magmortar
Miltank
Omastar
Scrafty
Scyther
Skuntank

B-
Aurorus
Golbat
Granbull
Haunter
Ludicolo
Pinsir
Pyukumuku
Qwilfish
Raticate-Alola
Sawk
Spiritomb
Typhlosion
Uxie
C Rank:
Pokemon in this rank do a mediocre job at filling criteria. The sizable amount of negative characteristics associated with these Pokemon are something to weigh against their positives before you fit one on a team.

C+
Absol
Aromatisse
Charizard
Cinccino
Clawitzer
Ditto
Drampa
Ferroseed
Gallade
Jynx
Kabutops
Lilligant
Probopass
Regirock
Tauros
Togedemaru

C
Abomasnow
Archeops
Articuno
Gastrodon
Gourgeist-Super
Incineroar
Kangaskhan
Lurantis
Raichu-Alola
Regice
Shiftry
Shuckle
Turtonator
Weezing

C-
Crustle
Liepard
Minior

D Rank:
Pokemon in this rank are those that are NU by usage, but are otherwise unviable. Do not discuss the placement of Pokemon here nor nominate Pokemon to move up/down to this rank.

Claydol
Ambipom
Hitmontop
Sandslash-Alola
Current Discussion Points:

Silvally-Fire, -Ghost, -Steel, and -Water placements
Palossand placement
Passimian placement​
 
#2
OK so as promised the VR council finally got our shit together and moved stuff around so it's more reflective of the current meta. Here is a list of the changes made
Code:
S
Xatu S --> A+

A+
Sneasel A+ --> S
Virizion A+ --> A
Zangoose UR --> A+

A
Audino-Mega A --> A+
Guzzlord A --> A-
Piloswine A --> A-
Rotom-C A --> A+
Vikavolt A --> A-

A-
Froslass A- --> B+
Klinklang A- --> A
Sceptile A- --> B+
Seismitoad A- --> A
Toxicroak A- --> B+
Vaporeon A- --> B+

B+

Accelgor B+ --> B
Golbat B+ --> B-
Malamar B+ --> B
Skuntank B+ --> B

B
Granbull B --> B-
Ludicolo B --> B-
Qwilfish B --> B-
Raticate-Alola B --> B-
Type: Null B --> B+

B-
Cinccino B- --> C+
Clawitzer B- --> C+
Gallade B- --> C+
Lilligant B- --> C+
Scyther B- --> B
Tauros B- --> C+
Turtonator B- --> C

C+
Abomasnow C+ --> C
Archeops C+ --> C
Pyukumuku C+ --> B-
Raichu-Alola C+ --> C
Shuckle C+ --> C
Spiritomb C+ --> B-
Weezing C+ --> C

C
Aromatisse C --> C+
Ditto C --> C+
Haunter C --> B-
Togedemaru C --> C+

C-
Articuno C- --> C
Masquerain C- --> UR
Oricorio-Baile C- --> UR
Lot of changes!!

We also talked about ranking some mons ourselves, but we figured it would be better if we left everything open for people to talk about. So here are some discussion points to figure out where to place (or not place) the following pokemon
Code:
Palossand
Passimian
Silvally-Fire
Silvally-Ghost
Silvally-Steel
Silvally-Water
I have experience with a few of these mons so I'll contribute my own post in a bit.

That's all for now! Thank you for being patient everyone n_n
 

Eternally

quack
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#3
Hi, I've been playing with all the mons on the slate for the past few weeks so I'm just gonna give my thoughts on where I think they should all go.

Silvally-Water: UR to B / B-: Probably the most consistent Silvally in terms of defogging. Very nice defensive-typing for a Defogger which lets it pivot into every single Stealth Rock setter in the tier and beat them 1v1. I think the best set for Silvally-Water is Surf / Defog / Toxic / Ice Beam (which lets you beat Druddigon), but it's definitely not strapped for options in the 4th moveslot, Parting Shot works well with bringing in dangerous sweepers like SD Virizion and CM Delphox in, whilst you could even run Rest to be less reliant on Wish passing to stay alive. The downsides with this mon are that Whimsicott and Rotom-Mow are super common atm and pretty much relegate Silvally-Water to very fat balance teams and stall due to their ability to provide Hazard control whilst still maintaining fantastic offensive presence. It's also annoying to not have passive recovery with Leftovers, so you're forced to either run rest, partner up with MAudino, or have a very short lifespan. Probably leaning towards B- with this for now.

Silvally-Steel: UR to B: Lots of people have been using this lately, and it's super nice to have a mono Steel-type mon that can actually function defensively in the tier. It's a great pivot for balanced teams and matches up nicely against some of the most obnoxious, common threats in the tier rn, which are Klinklang, Whimsicott, and Sneasel (all of which can be quite difficult to check, so covering them all in one slot is amazing for a lot of teams). You've got so many good coverage options so even though it's weak to EQ, you've still got a means to threaten most rockers with either Flash Cannon + Flamethrower or Flash Cannon + Grass Pledge. It's also one of the few Defoggers that can reliably switch into Garbodor and beat it, which is a huge niche for a defogger to have. The only downside of course is the lack of reliable recovery, reliance on Wish passers, and the abundance of Fire-types in the tier. B would be a good spot for this.

Silvally-Fire: UR to C: I invented this Silvally-form because it's actually a very nice form of hazard control for more offensively based teams which appreciate a Fire-type that can maintain offensive pressure while still having good defensive utility. With STAB Flamethrower + Surf + Grass Pledge you threaten every single hazard setter in the tier apart from Druddigon (which you could run Ice Beam for but Drud is pretty easy to wear down anyway) and check a ton of annoying offensive threats, for example Scarf Delphox / Vanilluxe / Whimsicott / Sneasel / Klinklang. Being weak to rocks + not having any form of recovery is what keeps this mon in C for me, but I could see it rising in the future for sure.

Passimian: UR to B / B+: CB and Scarf are both viable, and while Knock Off + Gunk are what solidified Passimian as a good mon, U-Turn is really the main selling point. CB U-turn is super good because you can easily pivot into something like Guzzlord or Vikavolt and pressure common Fighting-type resists like Bro / Garbodor / Jellicent with ease, while keeping up momentum. CB Close Combat also hits super hard and Gunk Shot means that no Fairy-types are gonna come in and spoil your party, you could even run EQ over Gunk because most MAudino are running SpD now anyway. Scarf is personally my favorite set, only because it's a little easier to build and use, and it makes better use of the new tools that it has (aka revenging Whimsicott and Virizion etc with Gunk, Mismagius / Sigilyph etc with Knock). Scarf also lives a +6 Quick Attack from Zangoose and OHKOes it which is super nice for offensive builds that cant fit a Ghost-type and are relying on offensive pressure to keep it in check. Solid mon, fine with either B or B+.

Palossand: UR to B- / C+: Very nice defensive typing, and with Stealth Rock it can actually make use of the free turns it gets, which makes it 50x better. It also has fantastic bulk for checking basically every Fighting-type in the tier, which opens up teams to be more creative with the rest of their members, something which I value highly when using Palossand. The issues I have with this mon are honestly moreso based on the meta itself, rather than how good Palossand is. It's dual STAB is decent but gives away a lot of free switches to things like Braviary, Rotom-Mow, Guzzlord, Vikavolt, etc, which is a little unfortunate for a somewhat passive mon like Palossand. It also has a pretty poor matchup against almost every Defogger in the tier. Whimsicott and Rotom-Mow nuke it, Silvally-Water easily wins, Silvally-Fire wins on a free switch-in, Xatu can't switch into a Shadow Ball but wins 1v1 with Grass Knot doing upwards of 65%, and so on. I'd probably just put this in C+, B- max for now.

Haunter: B- > B: Finally, I want to bring up my own nom, which is rising Haunter up to B. Offensive Ghosts are really good for the most part, with their main downside being Sneasel's omnipresence, however with Zangoose's rise to prominence, Choice Scarf Haunter has become a much better set (and honestly probably didn't get as much credit as it might have deserved previously) and gives Haunter an easy way to circumvent Sneasel without being Pursuit trapped. Sludge Wave + Shadow Ball is amazing coverage, especially off of Haunter's super high Sptak, and it can clean up relatively easily late game. DGleam is also great coverage for a scarfer because you automatically cover yourself against sleeper mons like Scrafty, while still hitting Guzzlord (which has become a really poor Ghost / Psychic resist now) for a ton of damage. Apart from Scarf, you've got the classic 4 attacks set which is OK, but gets messed up by Houndoom and Sneasel too easily, and SubSplit. SubSplit is easily the second best set and gives so many fat teams grief because of how threatening it's dual STAB is, while taking advantage of things like Mega Audino and Vileplume rising in popularity. Good mon, deserves a small rise to B.
 
#4
Most of these changes make a lot of sense. Zangoose popularity -> Ghost rising -> Sneasel being even better -> S fits perfectly. Guzzlord had a decent run, Audino + Type Null becoming extremely common along with stuff like Dgleam Phox and Whims being super popular are pretty rough for it.

Regarding the discussion points, I'll offer up my points on the ones I can comment on.
YO so I was about to post things p much exactly like what eternally nommed so I'll just expand a little bit.

Passimian is really good right now, think back to ORAS meta where Sawk was really dominant but now it has Knock and Gunk Shot... The momentum from U-Turn is the real deal breaker for Passimian honestly especially because its main counters, Bro and Plume, are super passive mons and easy to take advantage of. Banded hits like a truck because not many teams can prepare too well for really strong Knocks, CCs, and Gunks and the mons that do switch in to said moves get turned on anyways. Scarf is solid to scare out Whims, Viriz, etc and hits a decent speed tier to still be threatening. All around really good mon now.

Silvally Steel is imo the best form. Beating dominant mons like Whims, Sneasel, and Vani very easily while also having access to Defog and momentum in Parting Shot.. it's just too good to pass up on honestly. I'd place it at B+ or even A- just because those qualities are huge in this meta. Not too sure about the other forms but I can tell straight away I'm not too big of a fan of the Fire one. While that coverage may beat every rocker, it really doesn't switch into much and taking even more damage from rocks is really annoying as an offensive defogger with no recovery. Also, having all that coverage means you miss out on Parting Shot which is kinda tough for a mon that relies so heavily on momentum in its other forms and has no recovery. That lands it at around C- in my opinion, just another situational mon that won't fare well in most situations. Agree about Water, it's p solid.

Palossand honestly has been pretty disappointing. Having a near useless ability + being the most passive rocker in the tier aren't the best qualities... It struggles vs all the S mons and a lot of others, especially considering how dominant Sneasel is rn. Honestly seems like a C mon because there won't be many situations where you choose it over any other rocker.

Now, onto rises:
-> A
I've always been a fan of mooman and I feel like it got even better in this meta. It alone acts as a solid counter to 3/4 of the S rank mons excluding Emboar. Thick Fat is still a great ability and it gets rocks a lot easier now due to Xatu's drop in usage. Spreading Body Slam paras and Toxics is always great too. There's also the hot Punishment/Z-Punishment set that allows it to counter all ghost types perfectly and do somewhat decent damage. Definitely slept on and I'm in full favor of a moo rise.

-> A
Kinda surprised Sigilyph remained at A- as well. If anything, USUUMO showed that it's even better. The Cosmic Power is really annoying and underprepped for, I've swept numerous players using it. I mentioned the dominance of Sneasel right now being part of the reason why Palo is so low but it's a way different for Sigi. Sneasel is really scared to switch in to a possible Psycho Shift as well and if you get 2 Cosmic Powers off you even beat a knocking Sneasel 1v1. Sigilyph beats every prevalent rocker 1v1 because burn + set up or just burn then Defog safely so it definitely seems a lot better in the new meta.

There's only one mon I think should drop and it's not too big a deal right now, but here goes
-> B+ or B
In my opinion, Doomer really has fallen off. It just struggles vs too much - Guzz, Mdino unless NP, Type Null, etc. The main reason I'd say Doom was used was due to how easy it could Pursuit trap Xatu and Xatu itself fell off a bit. Plus, if a team wants a Pursuitter they just go to Sneasel anyways. CM Delphox has risen in popularity and +1 Z-gleam can easily kill a Doom too. The mon is just useless in way too many scenarios and from what I've seen, it hardly accomplishes anything. I think the Taunt set has a nice niche in stack HO because of the millions of defoggers in the tier now but it still is quite underwhelming imo.

As a Xatu spammer in snake, I'd say that the meta is a lot more fun with its usage dropping and less teams are centralized around it :shrug: maybe we won't even need to blink if it rises to RU.
 
#5
Hi:toast:

Shiftry: C --> UR

Shiftry really isn't that viable anymore since its niche as an offensive Defogger has pretty much been taken. Now there are two Grass-type Defoggers that do its job much better - those two being Rotom-Mow and Whimsicott. These two pokemon bring so much more value to a team than Shiftry does, so I see no reason to keep it ranked since its niche has been knocked down severely. Seriously, just use Whimsicott lol.

Lurantis: C --> UR

Lurantis is quite similar to Shiftry. Before USM was introduced, Lurantis was barely clinging to a rank since it was able to beat all the rockers in the tier and defog decently well. However, it still carries its old weaknesses of being super weak even after a +2 Contrary boost and being extremely susceptible to Toxic Spikes. Not to mention that there are a whole slew of defoggers that do its job better, such as Rotom, Altaria, Sigilyph, Whimsicott, Silvally and others. You can even use Servine better as a defogger since it also gets Contrary, has a far better speed stat and can hold an Eviolite which gives it the defenses that Lurantis may be lacking.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I agree with the Haunter nomination. It's really good right now (most ghosts are) and having used it a lot personally it packs a huge punch and the SubSplit set is super annoying for fatter teams to deal with at the moment. Also supporting of the Passimian placement and Silvally-Steel placement. I am undecided on Silvally-Water, I have to play with it more.

Thanks for reading:toast:
 
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#6
Y'all need to stop nomming things entire ranks unless they're super duper justified

Houndoom to stay A- (to counteract the denom) (Side note: CM Z-Dazzling is an unset)
Houndoom still holds many valuable neat tricks up its sleeve to hold up against the current metagame. Just in general stuff like Destiny Bond scarf (can nab unexpected kills), LO pursuit (main niche to trap Delphox actually not Xatu which Sneasel can't do on scarf unless coming in from a sack switching into a psychic move and unable to do on colbur berry), and Taunt stopping annoying ass rising defog. Literally besides Guzzlord, Delphox and Houndoom share similar counters but Houndoom's useful dark typing allows it to kill the slow brethren, Z-Dark Pulse is neutrally just better than Z-fire blast, and block out memento/encore on Whimsicott (kind of a big deal in current metagame). Not to mention the slight rise of stall which Houndoom can break a little easier with taunt against Pyukumuku (which has risen). Still an A- worthy mon imo even nommed last thread to A accidentally by council. (ok that's a joke)


Toxicroak back to A- (even A but can take it slow)
No clue as to why this dropped at all. Golbat usage sunk down and this is one of the best if not THE best balance breaker. With a boost and some chip, it can dismantle Slowbro, Steelix, Vaporeon, Vileplume, Mega Audino, Rhydon, Pyukumuku and takes advantage of metagame trends such as the rising protect/toxic/scald Seismitoads and generally low Jellicent usage. Also has the potential to just dick stall. Pls reconsider.


Hitmonlee down to A-
Now that the tier has actual hazard deterrents now, Hitmonlee can be put down a notch. Rapid spin is most likely the reason why you'd even consider this thing in the first place (although reckless HJK hurts) and other fightings just offer more utility overall aside from that like secondary STABs, the ability to bypass normal fighting checks, etc. Not bad, but lost a little edge.

Pinsir down to C+ (maybe lower)
Xatu is becoming less of a defining face since the meta shift meaning something that would literally only see play because Xatu should drop. Mold Breaker SR isn't even something it can claim for itself and is just typically hard to fit on teams (generally wants to use a Z item, weak to SR, bad typing in general, mediocre STAB, etc.). And anything else it tries to do is outclassed by a myriad of other options.

Rank This B-,B? something like that
New face of Balance/Stall defog and unlike Golbat, it can take on Delphox, Emboar, Rotom-Mow, knock offs, etc. It's typing and ability is just hella fire right now in the current metagame.


Rank this as fighting check except no reliable recovery and horrid spdef Unranked
Just outclassed by pretty much everything it does. No access to spikes, no recovery, lack of useful resistances (can't act as a real grass check), and extremely passive.


Raichu to C-/Unranked
Really awkward to use/build mon as sweeping with it is often near unrealistic as
1) pretty much every scarfer can kill this
2) Sneasel = take this L
3) Frail as shit
4) Isn't that strong well it's plotted up (hell, walls can one shot this and cannot even OHKO spdef steelix at +2 with surf)


FREE SANDSLASH-ALOLA (no seriously though)
 

Finchinator

IT'S FINK DUMBASS
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#7

straight thuggin'

My boy Passimian gained a lot with the introduction of USUM, making it easily viable. I know a couple others hit on it above, but I just want to go into detail a bit more as I have used him extensively. Knock Off and Gunk Shot give Passimian the ability to hit Pokemon that often check it with something more than U-turn, which is still a huge selling point for this beast. The Choice Band set is the best set, but Choice Scarf is still viable. Let me get into why -- Choice Band hits insanely hard while not being too slow for NU standards and hardly has any good, long-term counterplay. U-turn and Knock Off let you hit Psychic and Ghost types while generating momentum, crippling opposing defensive threats, and simply making progress in the game no matter how you look at it. It is really easy to lock into these moves with Passimian because it is not a glass cannon and it is still always doing damage or generating momentum, so it is pretty foolproof to play. On top of this, Choice Band Close Combat is fucking insanely strong off of 120 attack like god damn this thing is a straight up 2HKO on Offensive Garbodor and 3HKO on Defensive Garbodor that doesn't run a dumb spread w/out speed. As for Choice Scarf, I have significantly less experience with it, but it is able to outrun every single unboosted threat in the tier and it still hits pretty hard and is able to generate momentum, so it cannot be too bad -- the main selling point for ever using this would be the presence of U-turn, however, seeing as otherwise you would probably prefer a faster Fighting type being the Choice Scarf user. U-turn in general is just insanely appreciated by Passimian with the presence of Slowbro and Vileplume in the tier, not to mention that it is easy to just click sometimes without having to worry about prediction when you have another Pokemon that positions you well -- I mean at the end of the day so much of Pokemon is just positioning within the game, so yea, it should be no surprise whatsoever. As for what rank he should be, it should be at LEAST B, if not B+. I am personally in favor of B+ rank because Medicham is there and imo Passimian is better than it and arguably a premier "strongmon" atm, but I'd be fine with it going B if Medicham drops a bit or someone could provide me with contradictory justification to the assertion that Medicham is better outside of "omg Pure Power SO strong" because that doesn't mean shit to me.

will post more later bop
 
#8

Lurantis: C --> UR

Lurantis is quite similar to Shiftry. Before USM was introduced, Lurantis was barely clinging to a rank since it was able to beat all the rockers in the tier and defog decently well. However, it still carries its old weaknesses of being super weak even after a +2 Contrary boost and being extremely susceptible to Toxic Spikes. Not to mention that there are a whole slew of defoggers that do its job better, such as Rotom, Altaria, Sigilyph, Whimsicott, Silvally and others. You can even use Servine better as a defogger since it also gets Contrary, has a far better speed stat and can hold an Eviolite which gives it the defenses that Lurantis may be lacking.
I disagree with this nomination a lot. In my opinion Lurantis's best set is the one Kay gave me of a more offensive set of meadow plate 252 spa modest, which is actually quite powerful. The main thing this thing hits is a OHKO on Piloswine, which actually OHKO's every defogger you listed bar Rotom-N, Servine, and Silvally, while not OHKOing Lurantis. And neither Rotom or Silvally gets recovery or Aromatherapy support and i don't think they can even be compared to Lurantis. Whimsicott really isn't the most reliable defogger due to non existent bulk, the rest of them sport a weakness to some rocker in the tier. Servine doesn't come close to OHKOing Piloswine and actually its a roll for a 2HKO.

calcs to back this up:

252+ Atk Piloswine Icicle Crash vs. 200 HP / 0 Def Lurantis: 278-330 (83.9 - 99.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Meadow Plate Lurantis Leaf Storm vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Piloswine: 408-482 (100.9 - 119.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252+ Atk Piloswine Icicle Crash vs. 248 HP / 164+ Def Altaria: 432-508 (122.3 - 143.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252+ Atk Piloswine Icicle Crash vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Sigilyph: 306-360 (107.3 - 126.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO (not sure if it runs a bulky spread but idts)

252+ Atk Piloswine Icicle Crash vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Whimsicott: 290-344 (111.1 - 131.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO


Servine's speed really isn't that much of a difference (only hits 291 which really isn't fast) considering you need eviolite to make up considerable bulk while being significantly less powerful than Lurantis. Lurantis still has fantastic synergy with Klinklang beating annoying water and ground types and together they beat every relevant rocker in the tier. Lurantis also has the advantage of forcing most of the rockers out, which most of the ones you list don't get free defogs on them.
 
#9
-> A
Kinda surprised Sigilyph remained at A- as well. If anything, USUUMO showed that it's even better. The Cosmic Power is really annoying and underprepped for, I've swept numerous players using it. I mentioned the dominance of Sneasel right now being part of the reason why Palo is so low but it's a way different for Sigi. Sneasel is really scared to switch in to a possible Psycho Shift as well and if you get 2 Cosmic Powers off you even beat a knocking Sneasel 1v1. Sigilyph beats every prevalent rocker 1v1 because burn + set up or just burn then Defog safely so it definitely seems a lot better in the new meta.

First of all, Sneasel doesn't switch into the things its supposed to pursuit trap, (Phox, Haunter, Jelli) but as long as it exists on the opponents team its extremely difficult to keep Sigilyph on the field and you're just forced to click Psycho Shift/ Heat Wave to scare Sneasel from switching in, and its pretty easy to exploit that. Cosmic Power sets don't really have an offensive presence other then burning random shit that try to switch into it, and Defog is pretty unwelcome on most of Sigi sets as it either wants to have as much coverage as possible or drop something to fit Defog in. Its pretty unreliable as a cleaner since you can just sac something and revenge it, and most of its plays are mind games. It's still a good mon, but I don't think it deserves to rise.
 
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#10
First of all, Sneasel doesn't switch into the things its supposed to pursuit trap, (Phox, Haunter, Jelli) but as long as it exists on the opponents team its extremely difficult to keep Sigilyph on the field and you're just forced to click Psycho Shift/ Heat Wave to scare Sneasel from switching in, and its pretty easy to exploit that. Cosmic Power sets don't really have an offensive presence other then burning random shit that try to switch into it, and Defog is pretty unwelcome on most of Sigi sets as it either wants to have as much coverage as possible or drop something to fit Defog in. Its pretty unreliable as a cleaner since you can just sac something and revenge it, and most of its plays are mind games. It's still a good mon, but I don't think it deserves to rise.
I disagree with a lot of points you put up, quite frankly. Some players play aggressively with Sneasel and I know it’s not a typical switch in, but how does that change anything? Sigilyph itself has a huge presence due to set up potential and spreading burns which is huge, imo. I’m not really sure how you’re going to exploit a set up move like Cosmic Power as it can set up pretty freely on fat mons and spreading burns is never a bad thing in the first place.
I don’t really understand Cosmic Power sets not having an offensive presence at ALL. How is the threat of a Magic Guard/Psycho Shifter/stacking boosts not a threatening presence? Getting even one CP off puts your opponent in a tricky spot and forces them to play a bit more direct usually in order to stop it. I also mentioned that lots of teams don’t prep as well for CP Sigi which I still believe... people can switch things like Audino in assuming offensive Sigi and that’s a free CP turn into another boost or a burn.
“Unreliable as a cleaner because you sack something and revenge it” - sack what? The fact that it should be able to kill a threat while still live, forcing another mon to supposedly revenge it means it’s doing a pretty good job... Plus, like mentioned earlier, it really isn’t easy to just sack something and force it out because if you switch something in on a boost, what’s stopping more boosts? Volt Switchers like Rotom, Mowtom etc don’t typically hard on an unrevealed Sigilyph so people usually try scouting out the set which means more boosts or more burns.
Defog Sigi beats practically every rocker and has the unique niche of being a Magic Guard Defog mon. I used a more defensive Psycho Shift Defog set and in that case dropping CM/CP is fine because the goal of the set is not to sweep, clearly, but to Defog. Rockers in NU are Druddi, SD-less Rhydon, Seismitoad to name a few. You lose nothing by burning them then Defogging/Attacking because you can roost up easily.

I believe it accomplishes its objectives quite well among the different sets in the new meta :shrug:
 
#11
Type: Null to A-
This mon is insanely good and is definitely fits in with the other mons in A- like Houndoom and Mismagius. It's a very splashable blanket switch to most special hits that can pivot. I've been using U-turn / Return / Pursuit / Rest and have been having a ton of success with the influx of ghost usage to combat Zangoose.

Finchinator
I am here to provide contradictory justification to the assertion that Medicham is better. In particular, I'll only be comparing Band Passimian vs LO Medicham because I don't have enough experience with either scarf set. Also, this is just arguing that Medicham is at least as good as Passimian (though I think it's better), not that Passimian does not deserve to move up (i.e. Passimian for B+ rather than move both to B).


Medicham @ Life Orb
Ability: Pure Power
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Fake Out / Psycho Cut
- Bullet Punch
- High Jump Kick
- Thunder Punch

The particular qualities that I find myself valuing Medicham over Passimian for are (double) priority and not being choice locked while having a similar damage output of a choice mon. Bullet Punch is probably the most defining feature of this mon. A common scenario would be fodder something to strong fighting mon -> bring in Whims or Haunter or Sneasel (if weakened) to force out, but BP prevents this method of dealing with fightings. Fake Out is not as integral, and I know some people who prefer Psycho Cut over it, but I find it very helpful now pressure mons like Zangoose and Delphox (the combination of Fake Out + BP actually does >50%). Thus, Passimian gives up momentum if it gets stuck in a coverage move, while Medicham doesn't and deals with the main way of combating strong fighting mons for offense better.
 
#12
I disagree with a lot of points you put up, quite frankly. Some players play aggressively with Sneasel and I know it’s not a typical switch in, but how does that change anything? Sigilyph itself has a huge presence due to set up potential and spreading burns which is huge, imo. I’m not really sure how you’re going to exploit a set up move like Cosmic Power as it can set up pretty freely on fat mons and spreading burns is never a bad thing in the first place.
I don’t really understand Cosmic Power sets not having an offensive presence at ALL. How is the threat of a Magic Guard/Psycho Shifter/stacking boosts not a threatening presence? Getting even one CP off puts your opponent in a tricky spot and forces them to play a bit more direct usually in order to stop it. I also mentioned that lots of teams don’t prep as well for CP Sigi which I still believe... people can switch things like Audino in assuming offensive Sigi and that’s a free CP turn into another boost or a burn.
“Unreliable as a cleaner because you sack something and revenge it” - sack what? The fact that it should be able to kill a threat while still live, forcing another mon to supposedly revenge it means it’s doing a pretty good job... Plus, like mentioned earlier, it really isn’t easy to just sack something and force it out because if you switch something in on a boost, what’s stopping more boosts? Volt Switchers like Rotom, Mowtom etc don’t typically hard on an unrevealed Sigilyph so people usually try scouting out the set which means more boosts or more burns.
Defog Sigi beats practically every rocker and has the unique niche of being a Magic Guard Defog mon. I used a more defensive Psycho Shift Defog set and in that case dropping CM/CP is fine because the goal of the set is not to sweep, clearly, but to Defog. Rockers in NU are Druddi, SD-less Rhydon, Seismitoad to name a few. You lose nothing by burning them then Defogging/Attacking because you can roost up easily.

I believe it accomplishes its objectives quite well among the different sets in the new meta :shrug:

Regarding its offensive presence, it doesn't have much of it, considering that you're running Cosmic Power/Psycho Shift/Roost(Defog)/ and only one attack in either Psychic or Heat Wave, and you still have to pick if you're running Roost or defog. Without roost, the set is already hot garbage as its defensive niche is ruined, and without defog it doesn't remove hazards anymore. You're correct in fact that people don't hard switch much into Sigilyph, but pretty much any scarfer that can hit super-effectively can still 2HKO it after 2 Cosmic Power Boosts(Rotom-C Vanilli, not assuming specs), and Psychic/Heat wave can't OHKO them back without Life Orb.

Cosmic Power Sigilyph really wants to be able to do everything you said it can do in your post, but it can't do it all in one set, it has to pick a single role (Hazard Remover or Cleaner). Having a single attacking move is really unreliable in a meta overrun by thing like Guzzlord, Delphox, and Sneasel, and there are still many other reliable hazard removers to be considering CP Defog Sigi. It can annoy bulkier teams and pokemon that don't appreciate getting burnt or stop it from getting too many boosts, but offensive sigilyph still dismantles most bulkier teams anyway. Cosmic Power Sigilyph is nice, but its not it's niche.
 
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Sir Kay

Pack your meat bicycles, we're going to the moon.
is a Pre-Contributor
#13
post approved by Disjunction

D --> C+

Ambipom has a really bad reputation right now as a useless mon, but that's generally because people don't understand how to properly use it or what the best set is for it. Right now the best set by far is Fake out, Return, U-turn, and Pursuit. The main use of this mon is its a fast offensive normal type who thanks to its extremely powerful fake out has the ability to pursuit trap mons with a higher speed tier then it such as Scarf Delphox or Sceptile. The pressure this mon puts out is amazing because you're having to play around STAB Technician boosted Fake Out, Pursuit, strong STAB in return, and u-turn all in the same moveset which really limits a players options against it. Because of its lack of coverage and what Fake Out does, everyone's very quick to switch out which is why its such a good abuser of Pursuit. Here are a few replays of it in action:

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7nu-656351948
Match vs Orphic where I trap his scarf Delphox which gives me the chip damage I need to break it later with Fake Out and nets me the win.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7nu-667023701
Match vs Rhydonphilip where it being an extremely fast and strong normal type leads to a clean up after trapping his Delphox.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7nu-667270667
Match vs Watchog. This replay basically is here to show that Fake Out gives you a really good match up into things like Weather and TR which isn't anything new or profound but figured I'd include it.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7nu-667998997
Match vs a guy on the ladder. I trap his Delphox (see a trend?) and Rotom-Mow and clean up after his teams weakened.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7nu-668022814
Match vs soapy the kid. I end up losing this match but it shows off that mons in higher speed tiers really don't mean anything to Ambipom thanks to Fake Out forcing the switch.


There's also the fact that Zangoose is insane and thanks again to an extremely powerful Fake Out you actually end up beating it which is a huge bonus for its viability. I mention it last because I feel it has strong merits for its rank outside this use which is why I didn't include it in any of the replays, but it is a very powerful selling point so I figured I'd at least mention it as one of the best offensive answers to Zangoose if you don't want to run one of the fast/ scarf ghost types.
 
#14
Incineroar: C to C+/B-
Incineroar not rising at all seems pretty unfair. It got access to a lot of new moves like drain punch, thunder punch, power trip, and fire punch, which patches up its problem of not having good fire stab without recoil, and knock off, which gives it very strong dark type stab and gives it more utility on Assault vest sets. It's new bulky bulk up power trip set is actually not too bad either, and can actually be kind of hard to switch into if stats are boosted. Thunder Punch is nice to hit those bulky water types with to do super effective damage to waters, which it lacked in sun and moon. Also, the huge influx of defoggers means stealth rocks aren't nearly as big of an issue as they once were. Overall, i think roar should definitely rise, probably to C+ rather than B-, but needs a rose nonetheless.
 
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#15
Incineroar: C to C+/B-
Incineroar not rising at all seems pretty unfair. It got access to a lot of new moves like drain punch, thunder punch, power trip, and fire punch, which patches up its problem of not having good fire stab without recoil, and knock off, which gives it very strong dark type stab and gives it more utility on Assault vest sets. It's new bulky bulk up power trip set is actually not too bad either, and can actually be kind of hard to switch into if stats are boosted. Thunder Punch is nice to hit those bulky water types with to do super effective damage to waters, which it lacked in sun and moon. Also, the huge influx of defoggers means stealth rocks aren't nearly as big of an issue as they once were. Overall, i think roar should definitely rise, probably to C+ rather than B-, but needs a rose nonetheless.
Merely the fact that a mon got new moves is and should never be an incentive to be ranked higher viability-wise, it's what it does with them and how the mon functions within the metagame (with new moves).

Incineroars best new move is in my opinion knock off. As niche as darkest lariat was, knock off is an amazing move, and is almost always better than darkest latiat. As for thunder punch: Yes, it does allow it to hit water types. But look at the NU tier and tell me what bulky water types besides vaporeon like to take a knock? Slowbro and slowking dont, and neither does jellicent. Seismitoad doesn't care about thunder punch anyway, so that doesn't work either. Pyukumuku is only 2HKOD if you get a 44% roll with lefties with a banded set, so they can easily switch that out too.

Bulk up power trip is insanely situational and is almost always worse than its AV or banded sets, both of which are decent in the metagame. The one other thing it got that interests me is drain punch, so the AV set may infact have more longevity (for houndoom for example). All in all it's still rocks weak, regardless of the new defoggers in the tier, and its still a very average mon with a few niches, its biggest one being the AV set (if you want a banded fire mon Id recommend Emboar most of the time, but banded incineroar definitely got better with knock) checking the A+ and S rank mons if rocks arent up.

My conclusion is that I see no reason to move incineroar a rank up within the current metagame, regardless of the cool moves it got. Its speed is still too little, its hidden ability still isnt released, and the rest of the mon just isnt enough to warrant a rise in my opinion.

Side note: fire punch is also interesting on an AV set as a fire type move, as even though it does less damage than blitz, you take no recoil, which is very good for an av mon, especially one thats weak to rocks: blitz once, have one less rocks switch in.
 
#16
im actually in favour of moving incineroar up to C+ if not B-, not b/c of av or band but mainly on the merits of this set

Incineroar @ Leftovers / Firium Z
Ability: Blaze
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Swords Dance
- Flare Blitz
- Knock Off
- Leech Life / Earthquake / Flame Charge / U-Turn

first 3 moves are standard, leech hits and ohkos guzzmon at +2, eq lets you hit garb w/o taking 70 million, flame charge can help it act as a standalone sweeper and u-turn lets you pivot around before setting up an sd, pick whichever one works best on your team. it acts as a really solid balance breaker b/c most teams answers to handle it are generally stuff like toad and drudd, neither of which can OHKO it back and both of which lose straight up if you sd on the switch. it also gets more free turns than you'd think in this meta w/ stuff like xatu, silvallys, maudinos, pretty much all phoxs giving you free turns. another thing is that if you manage to pick something off w/ it a lot of the things ppl are using to revenge rn (rotoms, phoxs, sneasel, whims, scarf boar) will only do about half b/c of its natural fatness (outside of scarf boar spower ofc but forcing it to lock into what you want is REALLY beneficial depending on team structure). its not a perfect set since youre forced to run it w/ a sturdier check to the stuff its supposed to be able to check as well as defog (altho this meta makes that hella easier), and it can be tough to get in sometimes BUT if youre looking for something to open holes in bulky waters and just generally most balance teams for a complementary sweeper like gears or z-cele vap or even just something to come in, deliver strong hits and knock items around i suggest giving this a try and i definitely think the set is a good enough meta call for a rise up a rank or 2.
 
#17
im actually in favour of moving incineroar up to C+ if not B-, not b/c of av or band but mainly on the merits of this set

Incineroar @ Leftovers / Firium Z
Ability: Blaze
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Swords Dance
- Flare Blitz
- Knock Off
- Leech Life / Earthquake / Flame Charge / U-Turn

first 3 moves are standard, leech hits and ohkos guzzmon at +2, eq lets you hit garb w/o taking 70 million, flame charge can help it act as a standalone sweeper and u-turn lets you pivot around before setting up an sd, pick whichever one works best on your team. it acts as a really solid balance breaker b/c most teams answers to handle it are generally stuff like toad and drudd, neither of which can OHKO it back and both of which lose straight up if you sd on the switch. it also gets more free turns than you'd think in this meta w/ stuff like xatu, silvallys, maudinos, pretty much all phoxs giving you free turns. another thing is that if you manage to pick something off w/ it a lot of the things ppl are using to revenge rn (rotoms, phoxs, sneasel, whims, scarf boar) will only do about half b/c of its natural fatness (outside of scarf boar spower ofc but forcing it to lock into what you want is REALLY beneficial depending on team structure). its not a perfect set since youre forced to run it w/ a sturdier check to the stuff its supposed to be able to check as well as defog (altho this meta makes that hella easier), and it can be tough to get in sometimes BUT if youre looking for something to open holes in bulky waters and just generally most balance teams for a complementary sweeper like gears or z-cele vap or even just something to come in, deliver strong hits and knock items around i suggest giving this a try and i definitely think the set is a good enough meta call for a rise up a rank or 2.
Shouldn't Drain Punch go over Leech Life? It's only a 5 point difference, and Fighting is better coverage than Bug.
 
#19
Shouldn't Drain Punch go over Leech Life? It's only a 5 point difference, and Fighting is better coverage than Bug.
Yeah, it's definitely better. Hits a lot more things super effectively, allowing for more healing. It also covers its rock weakness, making it a better option.
overall typing coverage doesnt mean a whole lot considering that your stab moves are super strong (neutral blitz does more than SE drain or leech, knock off does a teensy bit less but it has the most utility out of any move in the game) plus you dont beat rhydon anyways and you're gonna want to mostly knock off its evio on the switch and go from there. i had drain initially but really the only reason youre using it is to get a strong hit off on guzzmon and mayb recover some hp against stuff thats low and looking at the calcs the 5 points make a pretty decent difference

+2 252+ Atk Incineroar Leech Life vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Guzzlord: 582-686 (99.1 - 116.8%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Incineroar Drain Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Guzzlord: 546-644 (93 - 109.7%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO

not to mention that getting the strong hit off on malamar can be a life saver sometimes, but in reality 95% of the time you're gonna be clicking the first 3 moves so it doesnt /really/ matter, i just think leech has more of a purpose when it comes to in-game situations rather than just straight up objective "type coverage"
 
#20
Hello I am here to discuss pokemon yet again

C+ --> B/B+

I think most people that have fought me/watched me ladder in the past couple of days know how terrifying OTR Aroma is. It is ALWAYS a win condition regardless of any resists the opponent has. I usually don't like doing walls of calcs, but considering this is a pretty unexplored mon I'd like to show off some cool benchmarks it crushes.
+2 252+ SpA Aromatisse Twinkle Tackle (175 BP) vs. 244 HP / 128 SpD Steelix: 309-364 (87.7 - 103.4%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252+ SpA Aromatisse Twinkle Tackle (175 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Garbodor: 306-360 (101.6 - 119.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Aromatisse Twinkle Tackle (175 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Samurott: 348-411 (105.1 - 124.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ SpA Aromatisse Twinkle Tackle (175 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Delphox: 258-304 (88.6 - 104.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Aromatisse Twinkle Tackle (175 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Seismitoad: 328-387 (79.2 - 93.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
It hits HARD with Z-Moonblast and because of its great typing and bulk, it finds a lot of set up opportunities. I genuinely think this mon could go much higher than this, but for now I think mid to upper b is fine.

I'd also like to chime in on some of the current talking points


(steel) UR --> B-/B

I was using this on the same team as aroma and it's actually pretty cool. I was afraid that it would be too easy to chip down, but even when I had a vanilluxe as a partner I found this thing was bulky enough to switch into Whimsicotts and Vanilluxes as many times as I needed it to. The spdef set fits surprisingly well on bulky offensive teams as a defog pivot because its plain steel typing and surprisingly interchangeable moveset makes it a fill a super cool niche. Parting shot, flamethrower, toxic, defog, and grass pledge are all useful tools for it. It's also bulky enough to defog on some other specially offensive threats, such as Mowtom and Guzzlord. It's passive as hell being a defogger that relies on toxic for damage, so lower b ranks is probably ok to start with.

(water) UR --> C+

Not as impressed with this one as I was steel. Offensive was kinda neat and the defensive one was definitely bulky, but both had the issue of being worn down much worse than steel I believe. Taking 12% from rocks is rough, but I think the main issue comes from what silv-water checks which are pokemon like Sneasel, Emboar, and Delphox which have plenty of opportunities to come in throughout the game and put more pressure on it than what Whimsicott or Scarf Vanilluxe do to Steel.

Also note I'm only comparing the two in terms of how easily they are whittled down. Water does a good job on the teams it fits onto, I just dislike investing a defensive team slot that gets exploited like this.

(ghost) UR --> C-/C

I don't really have replays to back this guy up, but since I'm the only one who has used it I'll defend the nomination. Offensive Ghostvally is a relatively niche offensive defogger that threatens every rocker (bar miltank) and outspeeds Zangoose. You need to be able to get zang to ~40% to kill with flamethrower, but that shouldn't be hard to do on the kind of teams you'll be using this on. One of the cooler things about it is that it's one of the non-choice scarf'd Ghosts that can actually live a Knock Off from Sneasel.

It's nothing amazing, but it's definitely more relevant than most of the garbage we have ranked in the C's lol

UR --> B

I'll get this one out of the way, too, since people have been taken aback by how it's unranked when nobody has nominated it to rise.

Altaria is one of the blessings bestowed onto defensive teams with the release of USUM. Defog, a check to beasts like emboar and passimian, full stop to SD Samurott, etc. The role compression Altaria provides to defensive teams is astounding and definitely worthy of an average starting point in rank.

UR --> C-

I haven't been overly impressed with palo. Its typing is kind of mediocre and I haven't had many situations where I've felt it fits well on a team unless I force myself to use it. Despite its impressive SpA, it hardly gets to make use of any of its power because it needs to heavily invest in bulk to combat all the physical attackers that it doesn't resist. It also has a big big issue of not being able to threaten most of the common Defoggers in the tier (with the exception of Rotom-N.) It's at least worthy of some kind of rank, though, considering it compresses a lot of roles into one, but I think this is a pokemon you would only use if you're desperate.
 

Yoshizilla315

Tournament Banned
#21
to B+
I was quite surprised to see this Pokemon in B, and it seems no one realized it until someone brought it up in the NU room today. After the Barb ban, Omastar became instantly better, but it's only recently that it's begun to be used so much. Why? It's kind of hard to deal with Hydro Pump + Ice Beam + Spikes/Wring Out. Spikes in general are just good, and Wring Out hits some Pokemon harder than those two moves would regularly, such as Slowbro. So, Omastar works great as a Barb replacement, and even has some things it can do over it. But why is this Pokemon so great now and wasn't before? Well, in my opinion, it's always been this good. It's just it's taken awhile to reach the point where everyone knows it's potential. So, it should rise to B+.
 
#22
2 requests, if shifts came out earlier it could have been stuff like croak up/Jelli down as well.

Omastar from B to A-
If the set in mind wasn't obvious it's: Hydro Pump, Ice Beam, Wring Out, Shell Smash. And realistically you could argue Sash and dropping Ice Beam for Rocks or even Spikes. I have been saying this for a good amount of time now and I can't see how in current metagame you could argue it has gotten worse.
Not only does it take major advantage of trends like Sneasel, it also takes advantage of the orientations caused by Zangoose answeres and glue between that. Additionally the general lack of scarfers fast enough to revenge the Z-stone SS sets, what actually outspeeds +2 Oma? Anything above base 90 which is a reasonable number of pokemon but critically discludes Rotom-Mow, Hitmonlee, Vanilluxe and Medicham, who are very relevant Scarfers for current meta.
I love walls of calcs so here are some relevant ones to get you going(Keep in mind these include both Z-stone options);
SpD Walls/Tanks:
+2 252 SpA Omastar Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Type: Null: 163-193 (41.3 - 48.9%) -- 80.1% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252 SpA Omastar Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Audino-Mega: 202-238 (49.2 - 58%) -- 97.7% chance to 2HKO
+2 252 SpA Omastar Hydro Vortex (185 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Audino-Mega: 339-399 (82.6 - 97.3%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252 SpA Omastar Breakneck Blitz (190 BP) vs. 248 HP / 44+ SpD Cryogonal: 257-303 (70.7 - 83.4%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252 SpA Omastar Hydro Vortex (185 BP) vs. 248 HP / 44+ SpD Cryogonal: 375-442 (103.3 - 121.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252 SpA Omastar Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Virizion: 288-340 (89.1 - 105.2%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252 SpA Omastar Breakneck Blitz (190 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Virizion: 303-357 (93.8 - 110.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252 SpA Omastar Wring Out (120 BP) vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Slowking: 147-174 (37.4 - 44.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
+2 252 SpA Omastar Breakneck Blitz (190 BP) vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Slowking: 233-275 (59.2 - 69.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252 SpA Omastar Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 196 SpD Guzzlord: 444-524 (75.6 - 89.2%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252 SpA Omastar Breakneck Blitz (190 BP) vs. 0 HP / 196 SpD Guzzlord: 468-551 (79.7 - 93.8%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
Water answeres;
+2 252 SpA Omastar Wring Out (120 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Seismitoad: 302-356 (72.9 - 85.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
+2 252 SpA Omastar Breakneck Blitz (190 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Seismitoad: 478-563 (115.4 - 135.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Jellicent, that mon doesn't exist in this meta, that is your way of dealing with it.

Priority revenge killers?
252+ Atk Fist Plate Hitmonlee Mach Punch vs. -1 0 HP / 4 Def Omastar: 204-240 (72.5 - 85.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Toxicroak Vacuum Wave vs. -1 0 HP / 0 SpD Omastar: 218-260 (77.5 - 92.5%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Life Orb Toxicroak Vacuum Wave vs. -1 0 HP / 0 SpD Omastar: 260-307 (92.5 - 109.2%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO
252+ SpA Life Orb Toxicroak Vacuum Wave vs. -1 0 HP / 0 SpD Omastar: 283-338 (100.7 - 120.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO



Mesprit from B+ to ?
I onderstand the provided utilities of Scarf healing Wish and Offensive SR lead but I feel as if I have been isolated from this mon as I have yet to actually see it do anything besides Healing Wish itself away as any other teammate is more valuable then Mesprit on any team it is considered on.
 

rozes

Tournament Banned
is a Tutor Alumnusis a Smogon Social Media Contributor Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus
#23
i havent really seen that much from oma since like the immediate barb ban and it was even underwhelming back then. speed tier lets scarf phox outspeed at +2, not strong once its used its z move, and being complete shit without z water / normal(?) doesnt really make me think its worth a rise. sash lead is much better in this meta imo, but still losing to quite a few of the new foggers w/o ice beam kinda sucks for it and makes me still shift towards a setter like crustle since its offensive presence is a bit better imo since it can more directly threaten stuff like alt / mowtom in 1 slot. overall i could maybe see it push towards B+ based on the merits of sash, but i still think b suits it bc i rlly think its as threatening as smth like scrafty while there are much better sweepers / mons in b+ / a- like croak and null.

speaking of that i think croak could use a rise in this meta (a- / maybe push a?), the standard z-psn / drain / sucker is amazing atm due to the ease of set up w/ defoggers like silv-water / alt / steelvally being passive and unable to touch it. id honestly put it @ goose levels of threat if it manages to set up, as scarf-boar / whims have been on a decline for mons like scarfphox and and sneasel, both of which are unreliable answers. overall just a really nice mon in this meta, that im sure any who has used it recently can attest to how threatening it can be with the ease of set up for it in the current meta.

a few other mons ill touch on that could be ranked / see a raise that i think should be fairly more obvious / need less explanation
  • mudsdale (c-/c_): doubted it @ first bc why not just use rhydon, but leftovers + stamina makes it a really nice pick for more defensive teams, along w/ some moves like heavy slam in order to surprise whims on the switch. i still think its a fairly bad pick compared to seis / don on a few teams, but i think it definitely has its place in this meta, esp if ppl are pushing for palo to be ranked as well.
  • lycanroc (c_/c+): lycan gained quite a few new toys w/ the shift to sm, mainly being a strong z edge / endeavor. both help the two sets i feel are viable atm, being sd and lead rocks. lead rocks has the niche of being faster than archeops, albeit losing head smash for edge | accelrock (if you like losing to xatu), but still a fairly nice lead in the current meta for more ho builds (pair w/ tspikes lead accel if you want some fun). sd is also smth i explored mid-sm that i really like in the current meta as well, standard sd w/ edge / accel / brick | drill is amazing w/ lycanium z which has the chance to once shot walls like slowbro / jellicent / plume @ +2. underrated / unexplored sweeper i feel should be ranked, hope a few other ppl have used it as well so ppl dont think im talking out of my ass.
  • golbat (c+/c_): ppl know ive hated this mon since early sm bc of how passive it is / its ability to lose to almost every rocker / being a bad mon, and i def think its at its low point in this meta. being outclassed as a defogger by things like alt / silvally-formes def makes its niche as a bulky defogger for fat teams disappear. not rlly much to say aside from it just continuing to be a terrible pick in this meta / previous metas as well.
  • hitmonlee (a-/b+): spin on lee has always been kind of ass, and its no longer necessary to have it as an offensive hazard control option w/ things like rotom-mow / sigi picking up use, and machs inability to revenge new threat™ zangoose unless its scarf makes it a kind of meh pick in the meta. if i want a scarfer im most likely going to be looking at passimian bc u-turn, same w/ band, leaving lees only niche as a life orb attacker which can be argued medi does better. overall just an unfavored meta for it which means it should drop to a-, if not lower.
also agree w/ houndoom down | null up | watervally b-/b | steelvally b-/b | passimian b+
 
#24

Sceptile B+ --> A-

Not really sure how it dropped down so hard since the LO set is still a really good breaker although "wHiMsIcOtT tOoK iT's JoB aS a FaSt SpEcS gRaSs-TyPe". May it be LO/Specs, Sceptile still is very powerful and has the appropriate coverage move to hit the likes of Delphox, Golbat, etc. and is still the 2nd fastest mon in the tier. I've also been exploring Low Kick since it hits 2 useful targets in Guzzlord and Cryogonal (Probably Regice and some other mons to an extent) and scores a 2HKO on both which is rly good for it and some teammates that wants those gone. Not to mention Sceptile can still run SD sets and catch people who's using mons along the lines of Fire-types and Togedemaru as their"Grass resists". I think Sceptile's overall versatility and raw power, and splashability on offense, and balance teams that needs a breaker deserves an A-.



Aromatisse C+ --> B / B+

Not much to say about this but with a good amount of games with this throughout the week, I think OTR is really amazing and Fairy STAB just loves eating this meta. Disj have said what should've been said, and I think this mon is just rly strong because TR is honestly perfectly viable and its access to Psychic lets it break through Poison-types which otherwise requires you to use your Z-move to get past them. I think cleric sets are still ok as you avoid Taunt and Encore and having occasonionally helpful Fighting resist which is probably one of its few advantages over Audino and Vapo but probably nothing much outside of that. But then again, OTR is its main selling point and is a good wincon for most teams.


Passimian UR --> B+

Another mon that I've been playing alot, and I agree with finch on this one. I've only used CB so far but I also think it's the better choice item, as it let lemur's attack reach stellar levels break through the fattest stuff like Audino while scarf is probably outclassed by Emboar and other powerful ones. Knock Off and Gunk Shot are the things that we really wished in early SM and now we totally have that Sawk+Primeape hybrid. It also fits very well into VoltTurn cores as it also have good synergy with the likes Vikavolt and Rotom-Mow.


Palossand UR --> C+ / B-

I've already talked about this mon in the meta discussion thread and hyped a lot about it on early USUM going, but kinda underwhelmed. I personally think Ghostium-Z on the defensive set is its best atm. I don't really know if it can pull off a Rock Polish set but maybe...
Palossand's main selling point is it has usually the better matchup vs other rockers and its ability to ward xatu off. It also checks every fighting type in the tier including non banded emboar (without gk) and medicham, and also spinblocks lee for good. It also gets reliable recovery in shore up and also has eball to hit waters like toad for good unexpected damage. However, Palossand rly has glaring flaws to work with. It surely spinblocks lee, but that's the only hazard remover it notably stops, as every other remover may it be Silvally, Golbat, Cryo, even Altaria has ways of destroying it or statusing it, and even Xatu can 2hko it with grass knot so it doesnt guarantee beating xatu, whereas palossand doesnt do anything relevant back unless it carries toxic or smth (or it's vsing some silvally that gets hit hard by STABs). Carrying toxic is rly a pain since palossand kinda suffers from 4mss since i believe shore up and sr are mandatory, and you need both earth power so you could 1v1 lix easier and shadowball to hit xatu. Palossand also doesn't have the "Bird check" characteristic to be found in rockers like pilo,lix, and rhydon (and probs others) which you will definitely miss since its not rly easy to fit one or even forget to put one when your rocker doesnt check vivillon, braviary, and dodrio. Even with some of these glaring flaws, Palo could definitely be a solid B mon in the meta.
Even so, I still think its defensive utility is undeniably solid, so i think it still fits for a B- mon.

Sceptile

0 Atk Life Orb Sceptile Low Kick (100 BP) vs. 240 HP / 212 Def Cryogonal: 205-242 (56.7 - 67%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Not sure what in the world does this thing chooses as defensive spread but this should be close enough to show good damage.

0 Atk Life Orb Sceptile Low Kick (120 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Guzzlord: 325-385 (55.3 - 65.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 SpA Choice Specs Overgrow Sceptile Leaf Storm vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Whimsicott: 258-305 (98.8 - 116.8%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Overgrow Sceptile Leaf Storm vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Audino-Mega: 336-396 (81.9 - 96.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Overgrow Sceptile Leaf Storm vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Emboar: 292-344 (80.8 - 95.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
(Just to exhibit Specs damage under overgrow)

Passimian

252+ Atk Choice Band Passimian Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Vaporeon: 300-354 (64.6 - 76.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Passimian Gunk Shot vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Audino-Mega: 248-294 (60.4 - 71.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Passimian Gunk Shot vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Vileplume: 163-192 (46 - 54.2%) -- 96.9% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Black Sludge recovery

Palossand

+2 252 Atk Life Orb Medicham Zen Headbutt vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Palossand: 142-168 (37.9 - 44.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Reckless Emboar Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Palossand: 153-181 (40.9 - 48.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Hitmonlee Knock Off vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Palossand: 90-108 (24 - 28.8%) -- 98.7% chance to 4HKO
 
#25
Rotom B+> B(or lower)

Rapid spin is used much less now with the availability of defog. It still acts as a flying resist, but Dodrio almost always has knock off, leaving it's only true resist Braviary, which others like Slowbro, Steelix, and Rhydon resist just fine. With rapid spin on the decline, and it's flying resist not being that unique, it just doesn't have enough of a niche to justify B+

Medicham B+> A-(or higher)

It's much better than Hitmonlee now that there are defoggers that way outclass it as hazard removal. Hitmonlee only holds 7 speed over it. which doesn't let it outspeed anything Medicham wouldn't, bar Braviary and Toxicroak (which it loses to anyway if no EQ.). Medicham's typing is superior offensive and defensively, it can take at least one psychic or fighting move with it's psychic typing, and also deals with poisons and bugs neutrally without having to run EQ/Stone edge. Fake out/Bullet punch allows it to OHKO threats like Sneasel, Whimsicott after rocks, and Vanilluxe after rocks. Or run thunderpunch over fake out and 2HKO Slowbro after rocks, OHKO offensive sigilyph, OHKO defensive Xatu after rocks, 2HKO any bulky water bar Seismitoad. Its attack makes it the strongest physical attacker in the tier, doing slightly more than even Hitmonlee's HJK, and at 480 is basically most physical attackers at +1.

In case it wasn't implicit enough, talking about the LO set. Obvious, but thought I'd clarify in case someone decided to be rash
 
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