Volcarona [QC 1/3]

Checkmater

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volc legit has the best art and is a great mon design tbh



[OVERVIEW]

-Unique access to QD -> more damage and more speed at the same time
-Fire/Grass coverage that only it and Charizard can get
-Vulnerable pre-setup. Low Defense, while partially mediated by Flame Body, and weaknesses to flying/rock/water make it hard to find the right opportunity to begin sweeping
-Walled by Fire- and Dragon-Types. Bad Talonflame matchup
-Heavy competition from other fires: Talon, Heatran, Char Y, which don't have the bad matchup vs Talonflame and do more damage overall, or have other perks.

[SET]
name: Offensive Quiver Dance
move 1: Heat Wave / Fire Blast
move 2: Giga Drain
move 3: Quiver Dance
move 4: Protect
item: Life Orb / Lum Berry
ability: Flame Body
nature: Modest
evs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe

[SET COMMENTS]
Moves
========

Heat Wave lets Volcarona spread-sweep post-setup. Fire Blast is better for pre-setup damage (ohko'ing Aegis and Amoonguss) and avoiding wide guard, but lacks spread cleanup potential.

Giga drain hits Water- and Rock-Types post-setup, letting it avoid losing to these threats, such as Keldeo or Terrakion, after a Quiver Dance

QD gives Volcarona both deal more damage and more speed, letting it function as a potent sweeping threat. The added Special Defense also comes in handy, especially against slower special attackers such as Rotom-Wash or Aegislash.

Protect does what protect does

While Life Orb is generally better for doing more damage, picking KOs such as Giga Drain KO'ing Mega Diancie, Lum Berry can be effective at preventing opposing Thundurus from sacc'ing to prevent a Volcarona sweep. However, it should be noted that Lum Berry is only effective if Thundurus tries to stop Volcarona after it is setup. Running Lum Berry also helps Volcarona setup easily against opposing sleep-inducers such as Breloom and Amoonguss.

Set Details
========

Maximizes damage and maximize speed, giving Volcarona the damage--augmented by Life Orb--and speed necessary to sweep opponents. In addition, it outspeeds faster threats such as Choice Scarf Landorus-Therian or Deoxys-Attack after a Quiver Dance.

Flame Body burns fake outs and helps bad matchup against physical attackers such as Kangaskhan, thought it should be noted that Flame Body cannot burn Talonflame, and that many of the physical attacks that Volcarona is threatened by are non-contact.

An alternative spread of 40 Def / 216 SpA / 252 Spe can be run to let Volcarona live Rock Slide from Landorus-Therian at -1.



Usage Tips
========

-Utilize Fake Out and redirection support to keep opposing threats that can KO Volcarona such as Talonflame and Kangaskhan away while also actively protecting Volcarona to let it either setup or sweep much more easily.
-Setup on opposing special attackers that can't touch Volc very well: ie slower special attackers such as aegis / fires, to an extent.
-Be sure to wait to setup until checks to Volcarona are either weakened enough or Volcarona's partner is positioned to deal with them for Volcarona as Volcarona sweeps

Team Options
========

Fake Out support makes setting up easier:
Kangaskhan/Scrafty for Fake Out support​
Jirachi/Clefable (I swear it's pretty good w/ volc) for redirection support, which helps Volcarona patch up its weaknesses significantly. In addition, clefairy is an option that helps against opposing spread moves with Friend Guard while also redirecting single-target threats.
Water-Types such as Rotom-Wash or Keldeo to cover inability to hit fire types
Lightning Rod users can help Volcarona against opposing Thundurus, preventing Thunder Wave. However, in the case of Riachu this exacerbates your Talonflame weakness, whereas Rhydon makes a team more vulnerable to Keldeo. Regardless, the respectively help cover opposing Water-types and Talonflame.
Quick Guard can help against Thundurus and Talonflame
Talonflame Checks such as Thundurus, Lando-T, or Terrakion serve to prevent Volcarona from being hard-stopped by Talonflame
Partners that struggle with Aegislash, such as Mega Diancie or Mega Abomasnow, appreciate Volcarona's phenomenal matchup against Aegislash
Good checks to opposing Dragon-Types, more specifically Hydreigon and Latioos, such as Fairy-types such as Mega Gardevoir or Jirachi in the case of Latios.
Wide Guard users such as Aegislash or Scrafty help Volcarona avoid Rock Slide, but should be wary of Stone Edge

[STRATEGY COMMENTS]
Other Options
=============

Coba, stops Talonflame cockblock
Sitrus, added bulk and with a bulkier set (160 HP / 16 Def / 148 SpA / 184 Spe) lets you live Kangaskhan Return
Charcoal, no recoil but drops some damage and added bonus on giga drain
BugBuzz if terrified of Hoopa / to hit dragons
Fiery Dance can be used over Fire Blast to have another way of obtaining boosts
Hidden Power Ground for surprise-KO'ing Heatran can work well, but Volcarona typically doesn't have the space to fit it into the set
A bulkier Rage Powder set can be run to take advantage of both Volcarona's decent special bulk and Flame Body, along with its useful Fighting/Steel resistances. Volcarona as a redirector is unique over other redirectors such as Jirachi or Togekiss in that it doesn't offer speed control support and good physical defenses but can be a threat of itself.

Checks and Counters
===================

**Typing Advantage**: Fire-Types resist Volcarona's dual coverage, while Talonflame destroys it Heatran uses Volcarona as sub-bait. Before setup, Volcarona is easily threatened by opposing Water- and Rock-Type coverage, such as Keldeo, Mega Diancie, or Landorus-Therian. Volcarona's Fire/Grass coverage is also hard-pressed to hit Dragons, which resist both typings. Particularly, Latios resists Volcarona's coverage while bypassing Quiver Dance's Special Defense boosts and Volcarona's innate special defense with Psyshock.

**Speed Control**: Forms of speed control such as Tailwind, Trick Room, and Thunder Wave will let opposing foes disregard Volcarona's added speed from Quiver Dance and move before it.

**Strong Physical Attackers**: Volcarona's poor physical defenses leave it susceptible to strong physical attackers such as Kangaskhan and Hoopa-Unbound
-Fake Out support lets Volcarona set up easier, giving it free turns and room to breathe
 
Last edited:

Idyll

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Yeah, you really have to buff this analysis up some more. What you have right now isn't really enough.
 

Checkmater

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idk I added a bunch but I was trying to keep it like, not really minimalistic, but I didn't want to be writing it up before writeup stage so I was trying to keep it to content-guiding bullet points.

Anyways bleh if I wrote too much now it's too late lol

also if you want more I can idk I just end up writing it up when I elaborate not quite sure what you want more on
 

talkingtree

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[23:59] %n10sit: uh
[23:59] %n10sit: why is volc still 0/3
[23:59] %n10sit: @talkingtree
[23:59] %n10sit: nice c&c leading.....................

^Got shamed into giving this a check yay friends !!

  • [Overview] Throw a Flame Body mention in here when you're talking about Low Defenses
  • [Set] Slash Lum after Life Orb. Avoiding para or sleep can be really helpful and give you the change to gain a second boost, passing the damage output provided by LO. However, LO means you don't even have to worry about a second boost most times.
  • [Moves] When you're talking about Heat Wave vs. Fire Blast, point out something about how LO/Heat Wave works well as does Lum/Fire Blast, and it's usually one of those two combinations.
  • [Moves] Say "Rock-types" instead of Diancie in the Giga bullet point, since it also helps against Terrak, which would otherwise be a big problem. Also, Giga allows Volc to heal off any LO damage that it may have accumulated so that's another bonus.
  • [Set Details] Specify that you're talking about Choice Scarf Lando-T for clarity's sake
  • [SD] Don't forget to talk about items here !_! (LO for power and less of a need for boosts, Lum for easier setup and less of a need for redirection)
  • [Usage Tips] The point about Fake Out support belongs in Team Options, maybe instead say something like "Volcarona should utilize the supportive Pokemon on its team to aid setup, as it typically needs a boost before it can be super threatening."
  • [Team Options] Clefairy also weakens spread attacks with Friend Guard (hello Rock Slide + EQ), so it's worth a mention in the Jirachi/Clefable point.
  • [Team] Volc needs something to deal with Dragons, such as Mega Diancie or Azumarill
  • [Team] Be sure to specify *Mega* Abomasnow, since the base form isn't on the VR.
  • [Team] Wide Guard users to protect from Rock Slide - Aegis is particularly notable b/c of synergy stuff
  • [Other Options] Remove Lum since it's getting a slash
  • [OO] Rage Powder set, Flame Body burns are a great thing for a redirector and if you invest, its bulk isn't that bad.
  • [OO] Fiery Dance > Fire Blast for another way to boost up and avoid Wide Guard at the same time (idk I just found out it got this but I haven't tried it out)
  • [OO] Hidden Power Ground to surprise Heatran would be great, but Volcarona doesn't really have the space for it.
  • [Checks & Counters] Heatran definitely needs to be in here, uses Volc as sub bait and takes almost nothing from even a boosted attack
  • [C&C] Lando-T should also 100% be here wyd
Tag me once this is implemented so that I can give you a pretty stamp :O
 

Checkmater

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n10sit ty you're cute
thetalkingtree implemented everything except lum, which I am tentative about making slashed.

Mainly I think this because ok yah you're using lum to slap onto your sleep-boosting sweeper, that makes sense, but like do you really need it? I find one of the main reasons I would use volc >Talon is so that I can beat thundurus easily, and while yeah full paras suck dick generally you can just stop a Thundurus solely because you resist its coverage very well. If a Thundurus is sacking to stop a volc +1 it's going to die, so it's already dying essentially putting you ahead already.

Lum feels win more rather than actually necessary on Volcarona. Also I know it's probably the second/third-most popular item but I think that like you ALREADY beat thundurus, you don't NEED lum to beat it, is my reasoning.
also sleep kinda feels like a moot point since you beat all sleep users anyways, both resisting stabs and hitting SE
 

talkingtree

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Tbh I have no idea what I was thinking yesterday, yeah Lum still needs to be slashed. If Thund gets a paralysis off on Volc and then you KO it, all of a sudden you're super open to attacks since most things outspeed you the very next turn. If you have Lum then you still beat Thund, but then you keep all your speed afterwards so that's kind of a big deal.
 

Checkmater

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idk like I feel like what I said still holds

first of all, life orb is life orb. Like, damage is always nice, more damage = more kills = easier sweep

Lum Berry is a niche matchup. It's only 1 matchup that you ALREADY win (even if you get para'd, they kill you with their switchin after this assumes both that Thundurus gets free switch, partner isn't being busy being murdered, mon after thundurus kos volc, and then you get switching momentum. I honestly just feel like Lum isn't nearly good enough to be main set, and should be "I think my team has little to cover thundurus, I really need my volc to be able to steamroll one" niche level

Besides that have these calcs

Lum can't ohko offensive Thundurus at +1 with Heat Wave
Life orb ohkos offensive Thundurus at +1 with Heat Wave

Lum can't ohko defensive Thundurus at +1 with Fire Blast
Life Orb ohkos defensive Thundurus at +1 with Fire Blast

my additive points onto what I was saying before are threefold:

1) you're not going to ko thundurus with your volc at +1 depending on your set and your opp's set
2) You're dropping life orb. This is a severe damage cutoff in itself
3) "Lum lets you beat Thundurus" can literally be said for ANY fast pokemon. What differentiates Lum volc from Latios? DD Gyara? I get it's a sweeping speed-boosting mon but like you drop so much damage just to cover what would be a Thundurus sac to stop your sweep
 

Stratos

Banned deucer.
| 2 | Thundurus | 29 | 32.95% | 51.72% |

post yfw this is a niche matchup

simple facts: like 1/3 of teams will use thundurus to counter life orb heat wave volc and then u will have put in all that effort to setting up to accomplish a 1-for-1 trade which unless ur team rly wants thund gone is basically a losing proposition for you considering volc is a wincon and thund's job is typically to stop the opposing wincon. but if they try to use thund to stop lum volc u get to keep steamrolling their team bc +1 itemless volc is still a super threat as long as its not parad

u should never use lum with heat wave, like, nobody suggested that?? of course u use fier blast so u can ohko othund (by far the most common set) and from there u often just win

i know checkmater75 thinks life orb is so good he puts it on deo-as and togekisses but youre retarded, other items are good too
 

Checkmater

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It definitely is a niche matchup. You're running Lum to help a matchup that you ALREADY win to prevent your opponent from being able to effectively sac a Thundurus to stop your Volcarona. This, by itself, screams win more. Not only this, but you can't just flat out ignore Thundurus when you do have Lum. It has to be a situation in which you got a setup while Thundurus was mia, then Thundurus tries to stop you after you kill something by saccing itself, and it isn't defensive Thundurus, and you absolutely need this volc to sweep more even after it just KO'd 2+ mons. That's a lot of checkboxes you're hitting off, along with the "my opp didn't see Life Orb recoil he couldn't possibly suspect me of being lum" checkbox.

In comparison to Lum, Life Orb is most definitely more applicable to more matchups. We aren't slapping Lum onto every single fast mon that we can, and that's because the damage drop is so noticeable. Losing 23% of your damage hurts, and it hurts a lot. Is anyone using Lum weavile? Latios? Hydreigon? Virizion? Surely Lum Venusaur, Kingdra, or Ludicolo is a thing? no? They're all mons that beat offensive thundurus except they get T-waved, but they don't run Lum. There's a very good reason for that.

Volc doesn't get enough competitive usage for me to trawl through replays, but I cannot bring to mind a single instance from a competitive game or my own personal usage of volc (I had some kang volc team that I threw together a month or so ago) where it didn't already win after the opp sacced their Thundurus to twave to attempt to slow Volcarona sweep down. This is a matchup you win. You don't need to win it more than you already do.

All in all, there's not really much more to be gained from this discussion, and it hasn't really been civil in the slightest, so @talkingtree if you still want Lum on the set I'll just edit it in and it'll be like 2/3 quick edits, but I don't think it's good enough to be better than an OO mention for when you feel particularly Thundurus-weak.
 

Stratos

Banned deucer.
you dont win you trade holy shit jesus

It has to be a situation in which you got a setup while Thundurus was mia, then Thundurus tries to stop you after you kill something by saccing itself, and it isn't defensive Thundurus, and you absolutely need this volc to sweep more even after it just KO'd 2+ mons.
heres another plausible scenario: they switch in thund on the quiver dance, then twave you as u trade volc for thund. the cool thing is since this even works with 1% thund, they could lose as few as 1 hp in order to kill your volcarona, which is significantly less than 2+ mons

i know that croven used lum volc in fall seasonal and oh look literally the first replay i clicked and its lum volc being useful
 
Last edited:

Bughouse

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Since everyone seems obsessed with talking about Thunder Wave and also since Talonflame is like the most obvious Volc counter on earth, how about a mention of Lightning Rod mons in Team Options? As much as I hate it, Raichu even does well against some waters like Gyarados, Suicune, and Keldeo, too.
 
The main EV spread should probably include some bulk, especially because EVing for a speed benchmark instead of just maxing it out gives you some leftover EVs to use in Def, which means that you can do this if you have Intimidate on your team somewhere:
-1 252+ Atk Landorus-T Rock Slide vs. 0 HP / 40 Def Volcarona: 260-308 (83.6 - 99%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
-1 252+ Atk Landorus-T Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 40 Def Volcarona: 130-154 (41.8 - 49.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

Here are some EV spreads that hit that Defensive benchmark and a relevant speed tier

EVs: 72 Def / 252 SpA / 184 Spe
Modest Nature
outspeeds Adamant Landorus-T

EVs: 60 Def / 252 SpA / 196 Spe
Modest Nature
outspeeds Hoopa-U

EVs: 40 Def / 252 SpA / 216 Spe
Modest Nature
Outspeeds max speed Modest Kyurem-B & hits the minimum Def investment

Also these Defensive benchmarks seem pointless when running Life Orb, but that's because Life Orb is inferior to Lum/Sitrus Berry as a Volc item. Also include Helmet in OO imo, it's a good item.
 

Checkmater

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this... actually happens to be a replay I looked at. Lum wasn't useful at all. It cured the first twave and then proceeded to do nothing for him, cuz welp he got twaved again?

Since everyone seems obsessed with talking about Thunder Wave and also since Talonflame is like the most obvious Volc counter on earth, how about a mention of Lightning Rod mons in Team Options? As much as I hate it, Raichu even does well against some waters like Gyarados, Suicune, and Keldeo, too.
Yeah sure I'll put this in

The main EV spread should probably include some bulk, especially because EVing for a speed benchmark instead of just maxing it out gives you some leftover EVs to use in Def, which means that you can do this if you have Intimidate on your team somewhere:
-1 252+ Atk Landorus-T Rock Slide vs. 0 HP / 40 Def Volcarona: 260-308 (83.6 - 99%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
-1 252+ Atk Landorus-T Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 40 Def Volcarona: 130-154 (41.8 - 49.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

Here are some EV spreads that hit that Defensive benchmark and a relevant speed tier

EVs: 72 Def / 252 SpA / 184 Spe
Modest Nature
outspeeds Adamant Landorus-T

EVs: 60 Def / 252 SpA / 196 Spe
Modest Nature
outspeeds Hoopa-U

EVs: 40 Def / 252 SpA / 216 Spe
Modest Nature
Outspeeds max speed Modest Kyurem-B & hits the minimum Def investment

Also these Defensive benchmarks seem pointless when running Life Orb, but that's because Life Orb is inferior to Lum/Sitrus Berry as a Volc item. Also include Helmet in OO imo, it's a good item.

I feel like these spreads sacrifice a very competitive speed tier (100s, with kang) for a LITTLE bit more bulk. I'll probably add a mention in Set Details, commenting that if you have intimidate you should use a bulkier set, maybe say to drop it from spA, but as of right now especially since Life Orb is main set I'm hesitant to do more than that.
 

Checkmater

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In fact, even in that replay you can see the fact that croven has life orb helps him immensely, it lets him KO Diancie whereas if you look at this replay of me vs Arctic, which it hurt me to even open, http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-doublesou-116782 , I practically almost win just because he DOESN'T have life orb, letting my Diancie-Mega survive a giga

+Stratos: croven has
+Stratos: no answers to dianice
+Stratos: unless thats cannon thund

good thing he's life orb Volcarona...
 

Stratos

Banned deucer.
[Set] Slash Lum after Life Orb.

we're not saying to remove life orb (except maybe kyle) you big baby
 

Checkmater

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I put in mention of 40 def spread taken from spA and the bulkier set in the ev compendium, which is as much as I feel it needs. feels like tying with Kang has some merit in comparison to 10 spA is why it's out of spA rather than speed. I hesitate to make this standard spread because it's conditional on you having Intimidate.
 

Checkmater

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when someone's final say on a topic is "you big baby" when the replay they linked showcases Life Orb being vital to someone winning and Lum doing jack shit and when I can't help but feel like there's been extremely poor argumentation in favor of Lum Berry

tree said to put lum slashed through ps so I'll do it

Ftr before someone tries to blacklist me and say I'm "uncooperative" and "a nightmare for qc" (assuming it hasn't already been attempted) in post 15 I asked tree to weigh in on lum vs life orb and how he felt, and only proceeded to continue the discussion because a final consensus hadn't been weighed. I hope that me arguing in favor of a set isn't seen as being an uncooperative fuck, because I really just (still) think that Life Orb is always the best set, so I need a good reason to use Lum (which I still feel hasn't been presented but w/e) in order to write up something in favor of said set.

Just clearin' my name
 

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