Why is there a species clause?

Hear me out. There's no reason I can conceive of for enforcing a species clause. A bit of an explaination:

Team's have to counter many different pokemon, with versatile responses to threats while making varied threats itself. People loading up on mono-type teams are disadvantaged, people that don't have a good mesh of resists suffer disadvantages and so on. Inability to hit hard with key types can be a disadvantage too.

The only situation in which a pokemon would be used more than once would be if it didn't fit in its tier or to use two builds for a single pokemon like a CBmence and a specsmence. Lemme address both of those.

For the former, this is quite an easy example to give. If mewtwo was allowed in OU, everyone would use him. If there was no species clause, we'd also use maybe 2-3 of him most likely. He'd be so ridiculously above the competition you could easily replace multiple team members with him and not feel the consequences of same typing/stats/movepool being in 2-3 of your team slots. For pokemon not incredibly above the metagame, using more than one of that pokemon would come with distinct disadvantages. For every garchomp you take, the worse things will go when you do meet decent garchomp counters, and one less pokemon you have to deal with every other threat in the game.

For the latter, if no single build is overwhelmingly powerful then I don't see much reason to stop people using two of a pokemon's builds. Perhaps you could hide two different builds behind an identical sprite - forced nicknaming on duplicate pokemon would stop that right off. "Tyranitar" "Tyranitar2" or whatever. That's not something that should be a big deal.

So, unless I missed something important the species clause fills no purpose. It restricts you from doing something that doesn't break the metagame open or give any unfair advantages.

I'm willing to be corrected though. What did I overlook? What is there that's broken about allowing for two a pokemon unless that pokemon is too strong for its tier? (If a pokemon is too strong for its tier, you'll see good players using more than 1 for sure. If a pokemon isn't too strong but still really good in multiples -- what's wrong with that?)

It seems like an arbitrary rule. Is this something hard coded by nintendo into wi-fi and PBR or something? Thanks for any insights here.
 
I agree with this, which is why I have species clause unchecked by default when I battle off-ladder on Shoddy. I don't agree with the forced nicknaming thing, though. If you want to double up your weaknesses, more power to you!
 
Do you want to face six Gengars, each with different movesets?

Sure, why not? Unless you are implying that gengar is better than every other pokemon that could be selected for a team slot such that in any situation where you could select a pokemon, gengar would be a better choice (in which case gengar would belong in ubers, which I highly suspect is not the case).

Unless you are saying this would be no fun, or would be annoying, or something else entirely subjective, since BP teams can be seen as no fun or annoying but are perfectly allowed.

Sorry if I missed your point.

Edit:

obi said:
I don't agree with the forced nicknaming thing, though

Thanks for the feedback Obi, it's encouraging that you see where I'm coming from. About the forced nicknames, I was merely speculating as to the one 'unfair' advantage I could see to using two of the same pokemon ("Oh here's his Boah again omg CB?") as an objection, and showing how that one debatable objection could be dealt with extremely easily. Whether or not it's used isn't of course something I care much about. Double the weakness indeed!
 
I'm just going to say that I really don't feel like facing down a team of five assorted Garchomps backed by a single TTar any time in the near future.
 
I'm just going to say that I really don't feel like facing down a team of five assorted Garchomps backed by a single TTar any time in the near future.

But can you explain why? What you like or do not like isn't really important. You could hate BP to all hell but still it's allowed, and no matter how much someone might like mewtwo he's not OU.

Again, do you think that in any given team, it is preferable to use garchomp instead of a rival pokemon? That Garchomp is so incredibly powerful that no matter what the team situation you should prefer garchomp to another choice? If so, shouldn't he be uber? If not, then I imagine this is just a preference thing which is unimportant.
 
Species clause forces a diverse team. IMO, a good metagame will force a diverse team anyway. It'd be nice for me to have two Stall-reins :-)
 
I'm just going to say that I really don't feel like facing down a team of five assorted Garchomps backed by a single TTar any time in the near future.

Yeah, that'd be hard to deal with.

*Brings out Weavile*

Oh wait. There's no advantage to having multiples of the same pokemon. If you decide to run 5 Garchomps, and your opponent has a counter to Garchomp, then 5/6's of your team is completely useless.
 
Yeah, that'd be hard to deal with.

*Brings out Weavile*

Oh wait. There's no advantage to having multiples of the same pokemon. If you decide to run 5 Garchomps, and your opponent has a counter to Garchomp, then 5/6's of your team is completely useless.

Nah, 1 isn't enough. Focus Sash Garchomp will rape the counter, especially if it is a Weavile. If he has one or two sashed Garchomps, Weavile will die, and you'll need another counter.
 
Isn't this because your opponent could have, say a SpecsMence and a DDMence on the same team. So you not only have to guess which type of Salamence the first is (a mispredict here can potentially cripple one of your Pokemon), but then when their second Salamence comes in you have to guess whether its the same one, and if you assume it isn't, you also have to guess which moveset this new one carries and what to bring in. By my count, that's at least three situations in a single battle where you have to make a completely blind guess that could result in you losing a Pokemon.

Saying "oh a team of 6 Garchomps dies to a CB Weavile with Ice Shard" is a stupid argument. Why would you assume the person using the 6 Chomp team is retarded? If I'm building this team, I'll prepare for Weavile; That means probably having one Focus Sash Chomp and one ScarfChomp, either of which can beat Weavile depending on the situation. Simply taking into account common counters and making an odd set which actually counters them eliminates that problem.

Of course, a team of 6 Garchomps wont get past a team with more than one way to handle them, since you can't switch because the incoming Pokemon is weak to the same stuff. A team of two Salamence, however, could be devastating if your opponent doesn't know until its too late. Forcing alternate nicknames is also a bad idea, because that adds something else to think about while battling; I have to memorize each Pokemon's nickname and set when it comes out, in case there's another one waiting in the wings somewhere.
 
But can you explain why? What you like or do not like isn't really important. You could hate BP to all hell but still it's allowed, and no matter how much someone might like mewtwo he's not OU.
I actually don't mind Brightpowder, but that's sort of because I use it on my leading Ninjask so he has a better shot at passing a sub along with speed boosts.
Again, do you think that in any given team, it is preferable to use garchomp instead of a rival pokemon? That Garchomp is so incredibly powerful that no matter what the team situation you should prefer garchomp to another choice? If so, shouldn't he be uber? If not, then I imagine this is just a preference thing which is unimportant.
Of course not. Garchomp is an excellent pokemon, in part because of high variability in movesets, but he can't do everything.

The issue is that en masse, the 28% evasion that is granted by BPChomp is changed into something monsterous. If Garchomp is faster than the opposing pokemon, he can get off 3 Subs while the opponent is firing away. If they're tossing out OHKO Ice Beams, then the chance of landing the first three to break the subs, and then the fourth to kill is .72^4, or ~27%.

Even if you get this almost-one-in-four chance, this still lets the Garchomp get a last shot in, so it's not like you'll get out unscathed, especially considering four turns of Sandstorm damage, unless you're packing lefties.

Now multiply this by five Garchomps. You've got a .14% chance of breaking every single Substitute, and then killing the Garchomp behind them. This is ignoring the fact that at any time, that team's user can switch in the Tyranitar, which takes neutral damage from Ice.

One of the Garchomps can be a CSChomp for revenge-killing anything packing Ice Beam that is still faster than your other four Garchomps, one or more can be Chain Chomps, etc.

There is a ~40% chance during any game that one of the five Garchomps will be missed twice in a row. Two Swords Dances from a Sub'd up Garchomp all but guarantees a sweep.

The REASON Garchomp isn't strictly the best pokemon is the fact that you can only use one of them. If you can almost guarantee a Garchomp setup-to-sweep simply by USING MORE GARCHOMPS, there is no reason not to. It immediately becomes the best strategy. The metagame becomes Sandstorm teams and Hail teams/Encore-spam meant to counter the game-breaking strategy.

Forcing players to use six different pokemon diversifies the metagame, albeit by force. Unless you're really bitter about not being able to run your 6-Luvdisc-Sweepfest team, the benefits of species clause far outweigh the benefits of removing it.
 
The point with that 5 Chomp 1 Ttar team, is sand veil+brightpowder by what I can see. You bring in your counter, you miss an attack (with 5 chomps that'll happen eventually), your counter gets killed, unless you want to pack your team with multiple Garchomp counters.
 
The point with that 5 Chomp 1 Ttar team, is sand veil+brightpowder by what I can see. You bring in your counter, you miss an attack (with 5 chomps that'll happen eventually), your counter gets killed, unless you want to pack your team with multiple Garchomp counters.
This is the general gist of my wall of text, if people don't feel like reading it. (And if so, I don't blame you.)

Sand Veil+Brightpowder/Sandstorm is the ultimate synergy as far as survivability is concerned, so for the same reason that you will find it next-to-impossible to find a Sandstorm team without a Sand Veiler on it, if it were allowed, the best Sandstorm teams would have ALL Sand Veilers on them. (Yeah, yeah, I know. Sandslash/Cacturne/SAND VEIL DUGTRIO, etc.)

tl;dr - Were Species Clause to be disbanded, the metagame would become HIGHLY centralized, eliminating much of the gameplay that makes Pokemon interesting as a strategy game in the first place.
 
Yeah, that'd be hard to deal with.

*Brings out Weavile*

Oh wait. There's no advantage to having multiples of the same pokemon. If you decide to run 5 Garchomps, and your opponent has a counter to Garchomp, then 5/6's of your team is completely useless.


This is wrong because:

For example:

Cresselia is your main Garchomp counter. You switch into first Garchomp. It SD's on the switch, you're now going to take a Dragon Claw. IB most likely won't kill it. It DCs again, now you kill it. Next one in? Chocie Band. Cresselia isn't so happy now.

Mamoswine's your counter? He's not switching to any of the Garchomps in the first place, and if he does, he's in a shit load of problems. We have the aforementioned Focus Sash, we can do max HP and use Counter. We can just use a YACHE BERRY and kill it with a Fire Blast.

Garchomp is only the example but general, one counter to one thing can normally handle that one poke ONCE. Try using a Gliscor against Heracross team and so on.
 
Even if we're not talking about Sand Veil Garchomp stacking, having multiple counters to $metagamethreat7 doesn't mean they'll necessarily take out one of $metagamethreat7 due to the luck inherent in Pokemon battles. Not only is it boring to see multiples of the same OUmon, but it requires a complete change in the teambuilding process and a complete redefinition of counter to, "Can kill 6 of these in a row while absorbing a switch-in hit, guaranteed."
 
it requires a complete change in the teambuilding process and a complete redefinition of counter to, "Can kill 6 of these in a row while absorbing a switch-in hit, guaranteed."

There's a lot of this kinda of thinking in this thread, and there needs to not-be this kind of thinking because it is wrong.

Counter having to kill 6 of a pokemon in a row after a switch in etc etc implicates a lot of things. First of all, all your pokemon are slower and oneshotted than every copy of that pokemon. None of your pokemon can set up against it. Nothing can wall various versions well enough to force switches and indirect damage/switching into bad moves. It also tends to assume that no one could work out how to fight against six pokemon with different movesets that you can't predict, despite how every time I battle I must go against 6 things with movesets I do not know. Sure, blissey is on every team but does this one have sing? Toxic? Protect and wish? Anyways.

My point is, does anyone really think that multiple garchomp or whatever are really a bigger threat to a team than a regular old clause'd team? If so, why is it any different to swap between garchomps to cover counters and threats than it is to swap between 6 given pokemon?

I think mostly, I can't stress enough how pointless and invalid "It would be boring to face lots of OU pokemon X" arguments are, in that that doesn't tell us anything valuable, unless it is also valuable to say that matches are boring because OU has a lot of staples or matches against BP teams are boring because I happen to not like them.

My theorymon isn't good enough to tell you if a team of 5 garchomp or whatnot would be that deadly, but I'd like to find out. It seems people are dismissing it with the same attitude one dismissed deoxys-s and whatnot. "This is the status QUO, don't mess around, CLEARLY it's broken to change it" without much in the way of back up isn't too helpful. I'd happily read about why this'd be broken, but I've not seen much to assert that 6 garchomps with different movesets would be much better than 6 much more varied pokemon with different movesets, since they have the advantage of having a larger 'combined' movepool and type resistance mesh.
 
I have mixed feelings concerning elimination of the species clause.

Even a team of five garchomps and a TTar is fairly easily beatable. Most of the common leads (hippo, gyara, salamence, bronzing, gengar, yanmega, weavile) would force TTar to switch or be slept, and you would likely then gain momentum in the match. If you run an ice sharder, even having a chomp with a yache wouldn't be helpful, because every time a chomp scores a kill, your opponent can switch in weavile/mamoswine/donphan and he will likely lose a garchomp, thus making his team even less diverse. Not everyone runs an ice shard user, of course, but they're common enough that a garchomp heavy team couldn't possiby be competitive. Of course the team would win some of the time through ridiculous sand veil hax, but not enough to make it competitively usable.

The problem arises with the fact that many people will make gimmicky teams such as this and will be able to easily beat a far superior player maybe 20% of the time through sheer luck. My shoddy team would have a huge advantage over this team--I lead with breloom, i have HP ice scarfgar, and a jolly scarfchomp, and a bronzong with reflect--and i would not be happy if i lost because my garchomp and gengar both missed due to sand veil and got KO'd.

I suppose the point I'm trying to make is that it encourages gimmicky teams which earn undeserved wins, and although elimination of species clause wouldn't change the very competitive metagame much, it would make the shoddy ladder very, very annoying.

Good Luck, Diversity! --TAY
 
I always thought it would be unfair, because it's already difficult enough to predict sets.

If I was to use two Charizards, one with Choice Specs and one with Belly Drum, it would become a complete guessing game rather than a tactical game. Or maybe a less obvious difference like a ScarfGar and a SpecsGar? Yes, this way you have overlapping weaknesses, but they can be dealt with through the rest of your team. It'll just be one surprise KO after the other.
 
Everybody would still use 6 different Pokemon even with Species Clause off. So yeah, I agree it's useless as it's forcing everyone to do what he or she would do anyway.
 
Lucario@Sash
Adamant
EVs: 4HP/252Atk/252Spd
~Swords Dance
~Extremespeed
~Close Combat
~Crunch

leads, does not care about SR. I actually created this set over a year ago before we realized how lame SR was, kept it under wraps to ultimately no avail, fuck you SR =(. this also does not care about a lot of leads, SDing against most leads like Gyarados, Tyra and Hippo, crunching the Gengars etc, knowing it has great support in its Sash and the CBed ES of its cousin.

Lucario@CB
Adamant
EVs: 4HP/252Atk/252Spd
~Close Combat
~Extremespeed
~Stone Edge
~Crunch

insurance against fast stuff that "should" sweep a six luke team, like scarfchomp

Lucario@LO
Adamant
EVs: 4HP/252Atk/252Spd
~Swords Dance
~Extremespeed
~Close Combat
~Bullet Punch

further insurace and fun as hell

Lucario@Specs
Modest
EVs: 4HP/252SpA/252Spd
~Aura Sphere
~HP Ice
~Vacuum Wave
~Dark Pulse

standard special threat

Lucario@Salac
Adamant
EVs: 4HP/252Atk/252Spd
~Sub
~Reversal
~SD
~Crunch

fun stuff

Lucario@Scarf
Hasty
EVs 176Atk/252Spd/80SpA
~HP Ice
~Close Combat
~Rock Slide
~Shadow Ball

so garchomp, heatran, gyarados and gengar respectively, don't run rampant, EVs are pretty random cause even at 350 SpA HP Ice can't OHKO a full HP garchomp but whatever



anyway this would be fun to use and hell to face, any six-luke team would have trouble with garchomp but this does as good a job against it as it can without using scarf HP Ice

for the record i don't really see the need for species clause anymore (the game doesn't ban DT and OHKO or lati@s depending on where you're playing) so we can't really look to copying the way the cartridge is mean to be played. are we trying to emulate link-battle, 6-on-6 play or not?

also lol Arceus
 
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