Well, it can't be higher than D, so there's no real point discussing it.
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Other XY OU Viability Ranking Thread (V2) (Last update on post #5189)
- Thread starter alexwolf
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Durant is already higher than D
It was ranked before it was rejected. The same with everything else that is now D but wasn't before their reject (Jirachi, Trevenant, Jelicent, etc).
Ah. Well that's pretty jank, but alright then.
Rosenfeldius I really disagree with bringing Mega Ampharos up. First ampharos doesn't actually hit that hard because of the lack of an item it only hits about as hard as LO base 110s. Ofc Amph doesn't lose HP but it does have the opportunity cost of being your mega. While Amph only requires cleric support that is a lot with relatively few clerics (Chansey and Sylveon) I'd argue needing a cleric is actually more crippling than needing a defogger by a large degree as overall defoggers maintain momentum and can perform more roles that just supporting the team as clerics do.
While Ampharos hits as hard as some specs users without having to use 1 move it might as well be using specs as Ampharos has to predict switch-ins because if it's absurdly low speed. If you mispredict and go for volt switch on the opponents ground type switch-in you lose all your momentum and you either have to sack Amph or pull a risky switch same goes for fairy switchins on dragon pulse. Just because Ampharos is a mega and may fit well on a couple team archetypes doesn't make it worthwhile even in trick room (see my comparison of Ampharos to Eelektross) it's just predictable, has a pretty good likeliness to make you lose momentum if you mispredict and isn't as strong as base 165 special attack would make you think.
While Ampharos hits as hard as some specs users without having to use 1 move it might as well be using specs as Ampharos has to predict switch-ins because if it's absurdly low speed. If you mispredict and go for volt switch on the opponents ground type switch-in you lose all your momentum and you either have to sack Amph or pull a risky switch same goes for fairy switchins on dragon pulse. Just because Ampharos is a mega and may fit well on a couple team archetypes doesn't make it worthwhile even in trick room (see my comparison of Ampharos to Eelektross) it's just predictable, has a pretty good likeliness to make you lose momentum if you mispredict and isn't as strong as base 165 special attack would make you think.
Who said that Durants Analysis was rejected ? (Nvm Thanks finncent1)
Anyways,despite sitting in a solid speed tier and being enormously powerful thanks to Hustle,Durant has several Flaws that prevent it from doing is Job consistently and is mostly outclassed in is sweeper role.C+ is perfectly fine.
(Rosenfeldius: Which Mold breaker user actually stops Durant? It outspeeds an OHKOs literally any sicnificant Mold breaker user with Superpower.)
Lucario has a nice form of pritority in form of Espeed,in CC a 120 BP Stab which can 2hko most physical walls after SR and a wide movepool tha offers multiple options for offense sets.Shouldnt drop out of B.
Anyways,despite sitting in a solid speed tier and being enormously powerful thanks to Hustle,Durant has several Flaws that prevent it from doing is Job consistently and is mostly outclassed in is sweeper role.
(Rosenfeldius: Which Mold breaker user actually stops Durant? It outspeeds an OHKOs literally any sicnificant Mold breaker user with Superpower.)
Lucario has a nice form of pritority in form of Espeed,in CC a 120 BP Stab which can 2hko most physical walls after SR and a wide movepool tha offers multiple options for offense sets.Shouldnt drop out of B.
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I didn't see Superpower on the Bulbapedia movepool list, but checking on PS you're right. I was thinking Excadrill but nevermind then.
Your link is almost exclusively about Trick Room. Which is silly.
Also, comparing Mega Amph to EELEKTROSS? Elektross can't check pretty much anything, it has crap bulk and defensive typing both. Comparing Eelektross to Amph is like comparing Granbull to Azumarill. There's just no comparison to be made.
Durant's analysis has been rejected; scrap the discussion of it.
Anyways, reviving the Gastrodon discussion.
Anyways, reviving the Gastrodon discussion.
If anyone tries to lower Lucario in the rankings I will have their head. SD Lucario is super underrated imo. It's not too hard to grab a SD boost when Bisharp and Tyranitar are so common. Once at +2, Lucario can do serious damage to offensive teams, OHKOing a lot of offensive Pokemon with Extreme Speed after only a small amount of prior damage (which is why Lucario works best in the mid-late game). I used a team that featured Lucario and I absolutely loved it. Iron Tail is also really nice for Mega Venusaur and more importantly, Clefable and Sylveon (which people actually send in on Lucario fsr). B rank fits it perfectly. It can't sweep a majority of the meta, but it can sweep a specific set of offensive Pokemon that make it very dangerous to the teams that rely on them to win (think Latios, Keldeo, Thundurus, Landorus, Talonflame, etc. which are all OHKOed or very close to OHKOed to the point where only a small amount of prior damage will make the difference.)
Rest-Talk sets really don't increase a mons diversity as it gains counters (Personally, I hate rest talk anything as leaving 2 turns to the RNG gods is painful XD). Agility is a solid set but it sacrifices Amphs pivoting potential or coverage for agility and most scarfers are ground type and easily revenge Amph and it still isn't that strong as I said before it hits about as hard as LO base 110s. I have never seen or used Amph in rain but LO thundurus feels like a better option in most scenarios.
That was a bit of self-promotion on my part but my point was that even in places where you'd think Amph has a niche it doesn't. The reason I linked the comparison was more about highlighting some flaws of Mega Amph than saying Eelektross is OU viable (it is in trick room but that's a different story) especially Amph's poor coverage and overall predictability.
Regarding Manaphy
Just wanted to mention this:
+6 252+ SpA Manaphy Surf vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Eviolite Chansey: 343-405 (48.7 - 57.5%) -- 94.1% chance to 2HKO
With modest nature Manaphy can actually break through Chansey and therefor basicly break Stall as a whole. Mega Venu gets 2hkoed by Psychic, Quagsire is 2hkoed by Surf, only thing i can think of from the top of my head that still stops it would be spD Clefable. Your losing the speed boosting nature but is that such a big problem? Imo its not. Basicly everything above 100 speed runs + speed nature so you wont get the jump on them. The base 100 cap isnt to clustered, its basicly only Charizard, Manaphy and Volcarona as Zapdos rarely runs max speed and getting the speedtie with them isnt too important imo. The only relevant things from below that will get the jump on you are Kyurem and Jolly Excadrill. Thats unfortunate but both dont always run + Speed nature and Excadrill cant stop Manaphy even if he gets an attack off.
Overall the extra dmg makes Manaphy much better against defensive teams while not limiting it that much against offensive teams as it has serious issues against them anyway and it doesnt get much worse because of the speed drop.
Just wanted to mention this:
+6 252+ SpA Manaphy Surf vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Eviolite Chansey: 343-405 (48.7 - 57.5%) -- 94.1% chance to 2HKO
With modest nature Manaphy can actually break through Chansey and therefor basicly break Stall as a whole. Mega Venu gets 2hkoed by Psychic, Quagsire is 2hkoed by Surf, only thing i can think of from the top of my head that still stops it would be spD Clefable. Your losing the speed boosting nature but is that such a big problem? Imo its not. Basicly everything above 100 speed runs + speed nature so you wont get the jump on them. The base 100 cap isnt to clustered, its basicly only Charizard, Manaphy and Volcarona as Zapdos rarely runs max speed and getting the speedtie with them isnt too important imo. The only relevant things from below that will get the jump on you are Kyurem and Jolly Excadrill. Thats unfortunate but both dont always run + Speed nature and Excadrill cant stop Manaphy even if he gets an attack off.
Overall the extra dmg makes Manaphy much better against defensive teams while not limiting it that much against offensive teams as it has serious issues against them anyway and it doesnt get much worse because of the speed drop.
It was just a simple opinion don't hurt me pls
Also, acestriker, I really think you're vastly undermining Amph's usefulness in his bulk and typing. He can check many relevant threats all at once that many other pokemon fail to do.
Agreed. Mega Ampharos gains three more weaknesses but his bulk is just insane. 95/105/110 is pretty good. And a 165 base stat is awesome, you pretty much OHKO most non-special walls. Not to mention, comparing Mega Ampharos to Elektross is just ridiculous. Elektross for god sake is barely OU viable, and now you're running around saying Elektross has more of a niche than Mega Ampharos. Seriously, actually use Mega Ampharos, you'll be surprised.
I've used Mega Ampharos before granted it's been awhile but I didn't see why it deserves B-. It's bulk is good but bulk doesn't keep Mega Amph from being countered by most ground switch-ins. Whenever I used Amph and mispredicted a switch-in I immediately lost all my momentum. Amph also doesn't hit that hard because of lack of an item, I will restate it hits slightly harder than LO greninja. (Also read my previous reply regarding Eelektross)
Mega Amph is not meant to grab momentum. He's not a fast Volt Switch user, so if you're concerned about momentum with Ampharos, you're probably using him suboptimally. If you plop Mega Venusaur on a HO team, of course he's going to be dead weight.
Mega Amph pairs well with the likes of Skarmory, Chansey, and Quagsire. Stall users.
Semi-stall teams typically don't give a damn about momentum, and neither should you when using Mega Amph.
And on the switch, provided it doesn't miss, Ampharos obliterates the most common ground switch in, Excadrill. Garchomp can't switch in safely for fear of Dragon Pulse, and DP will leave a dent in both Gliscor and Landorus. HP Ice even more so.
And you're comparing it to Greninja, a revenge killer. You need to think in a different mindset when looking at Amph. He's not a sweeper, not a momentum-grabbing volt switch user, not a wallbreaker. He's a powerful, bulky pivot switch. His job is to tank hits and either hit back hard or switch out, not clean up weakened threats. In this sense, there's nobody that does this better.
This, his ability to check common threats such as Charizard Y, Talonflame, Rotom-W, Thundurus, and Gyarados, and the fact that the only support he needs in the form of Wish, I feel make him more than deserving of B Rank.
First off I was comparing Ampharos to Greninja in terms of power to prove he doesn't hit as hard as you think he does because of the lack of an item and it is a pretty spot on comparison:
252 SpA Life Orb Greninja Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mew: 199-235 (58.3 - 68.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Mold Breaker Mega Ampharos Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mew: 193-228 (56.5 - 66.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
(Greninja hits harder with Hydro Pump so I guess I was wrong about something XD.)
First off the definition of Momentum is having more options than your opponent when you mispredict and hit landorous with a T-bolt you lose momentum because you have to switch out as the risk of losing Ampharos is too great and don't tell me that Stall doesn't care about momentum because it does especially when facing ground types, mispredicting a switch and letting a ground type in to set up SR could very often mean the game for a stall team and correct me if I'm wrong but the merit of a bulky pivot is to tank hits to get in Wallbreakers safely so why would it be useful to run Ampharos on stall instead of Mega Venusaur or Bulky Zard X ever?
Prediction is a two way street and because of Ampharos' low speed the current is against it. Whats the merit in running Ampharos instead of a bulky specs electric type if it has to predict every switch in or else Ampharos has to switch out while the opponent gets a free turn to throw down SR or set up.
Ampharos checking Gyarados is a no go btw:
+1 252+ Atk Mold Breaker Mega Gyarados Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mega Ampharos: 392-462 (102 - 120.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Nasty Plot Thundurus is checked (barely) only w/o any prior damage (which will probably be rare for Mega Ampharos)
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Thundurus Hidden Power Ice vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Mega Ampharos: 304-359 (79.1 - 93.4%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
So the list really is countering Rotom-W and Talonflame and checking Zard-Y (Fire Blast + Dragon Pulse kills).
Ampharos is too easily countered by a large variety of mons in the tier (most all special walls), is forced to predict switch-ins or else get forced out and lose momentum, doesn't actually hit that hard, has the oppurtunity cost of being a mega (on stall Bulky Zard X and Mega Venusaur are very valuable and in most situations superior to Ampharos) and doesn't check or counter that much in the Metagame. It just isn't B rank as it has too many flaws and can often cost a team more than it helps IMO.
Walled by skarmory and hippowdon (I'll give you quag, but the same is true for many sweepers)? Are you joking? Lucario was famous in 4th gen. for being able to OHKO skarmory at +2 after stealth rocks. Hippowdon requires some prior damage but saying it walls Luke is plain bogus.
Also unlike most other sweepers, you can't just pitch in thundy or talonflame as they have high chances of being KO'd by +2 extremespeed. (i think Thundurus takes ~80% minimum and tal about 95% minimum.) This makes it perfect for B as although it can't sweep significant portions of the meta, and is somewhat outclassed, Luke is very dangerous and better than B-.
Power is not the main focus of my argument for Mega Amph. Like I said, he isn't a sweeper (although if you really want to for some reason, the agility set is viable). Also, Mega Amph's Thunder hits harder than Greninja's life orb Hydro Pump, but that isn't really important.
Also, I said Gyarados. Not Mega Gyarados.
252+ Atk Gyarados Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mega Ampharos: 224-264 (58.3 - 68.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
80 SpA Mold Breaker Mega Ampharos Thunderbolt vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Gyarados: 636-748 (191.5 - 225.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
That looks like a check to me. Also, if you choose to run a physically defensive set:
252+ Atk Gyarados Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Ampharos: 162-192 (42.1 - 50%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO
Even better. So.
The benefit of running Amph over a bulky electric type is that bulky electrics are almost nonexistent. The only one I would consider 'bulky' is Raikou, but Electric by itself is a terrible defensive typing and can't check anything.
Also, for Thundurus, not at Nasty Plot VS Specially Defensive Amph (AKA BEST AMPH):
252 SpA Thundurus Hidden Power Ice vs. 252 HP / 172+ SpD Mega Ampharos: 92-110 (23.9 - 28.6%) -- 97.3% chance to 4HKO
80 SpA Mold Breaker Mega Ampharos Thunderbolt vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Thundurus: 190-225 (63.3 - 75%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
With Nasty Plot:
+2 252 SpA Thundurus Hidden Power Ice vs. 252 HP / 172+ SpD Mega Ampharos: 184-218 (47.9 - 56.7%) -- 89.1% chance to 2HKO
Still pretty solid as long as you don't switch in to HP Ice.
It hits pretty hard, BUT THAT ISN'T THE POINT. The point is in can take a beating while STILL hitting hard. And yeah it has a problem with ground types. So does pretty much every electric type not named Zapdos. Pair it with something that can deal with those.
Also, you keep using misprediction as an argument. Your own misprediction should not be used to justify the usefulness of a pokemon.
Also:
"mispredicting a switch and letting a ground type in to set up SR could very often mean the game for a stall team"
This is just flat out not true. Stall teams typically don't give two shits about stealth rock.
Also, if you are still a non believer in Ampharos' bulk:
252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Mega Ampharos: 307-367 (79.9 - 95.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 SpA Mold Breaker Mega Ampharos Hidden Power Ice vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Landorus: 324-384 (101.2 - 120%) -- guaranteed OHKO
At full health, against LANDORUS of all things, Amph wins with the SDef set. Not saying you should leave Amph in against Landorus, that's just stupid.
Also, I'm not saying use Amph on full stall teams. Semi-stall is the way to go. He wreaks havoc on semi-stall teams. Full stall is better left to Venusaur.
Everyone seems so distraught by this. It was my personal thought/opinions, as every time I've faced one (which isn't so common anymore) I never found him to be very threatening, and almost never lost a pokemon to him. But that's my experience, which seems to be fairly limited. If you think B, then I'll roll with that.
One of the biggest problems with using Mega Amphy as a pivot is lack of lefties recovery (or recovery period) and it's hit by all entry hazards, making it easy to wear down despite its decent bulk. You kind of have a problem if your pivot (who is supposed to regain momentum) requires a wish passer (which murders momentum) to do its job more than once. While you could run Drain Punch for health back, it's going to be coming off of 95 Base Attack without STAB, so you wouldn't get that much anyway. Rotom-W basically does Amphy's job but can also spread Will-O-Wisp, check half the fucking meta, has ChestoRest/Pain Split to heal itself, can run several different sets like Offensive Tank (people still use this one, right?), TrickScarf, and TrickSpecs, has one very uncommon weakness, and doesn't take up your Mega Slot.
EDIT: Also, the first time you switch it in to tank something you won't be Mega'd and be without your resists that the Dragon typing gives you, which is also a bit of a problem.
EDIT: Also, the first time you switch it in to tank something you won't be Mega'd and be without your resists that the Dragon typing gives you, which is also a bit of a problem.
Relying on wish support for longevity really isn't that big of a deal. I use it frequently. Ampharos takes a beating, but it can take/dish out more damage than Rotom-W with said support. Also, Amph checks Char-Y -- Something Rotom cannot do. It's a pivot focused on power>utility, and fits better on defensive teams that struggle with powerful wallbreakers and stallbreakers, whereas Rotom fits better on more offensively inclined teams requiring burn/trick support.
Also, Rotom cannot check Thundurus like Amph can. Rotom can also not check other Rotom like Amph can.
And I wouldn't exactly call pain split 'reliable recovery'.
Really, Ampharos can patch holes in teams that others, like Rotom-W, just can't. Team Char-Y weak? Rotom can't help you there. Thundurus weak? Rotom can't do much there either. They are similar in a lot of ways, but different in others. They each fill roles that the other can't, but they both do them well.
And as far as powerful, bulky pivot switches go, there aren't really many that can do what Amph can. Really, you're all looking at this too conventionally, and vastly underestimating Mega Ampharos' usefulness.
1.) I never said that Pain Split was reliable recovery. Also, unreliable recovery > no recovery.
2.) Checking Mega Zard Y isn't that much of an accomplishment on defensive teams (Chansey) or offensive teams (*insert big list of things that easily revenge kill here*).
3.) Mega Amphy is not a reliable Thundurus check unless Thundy has taken SR damage and ISN'T a Nasty Plot set.
+2 252 SpA Thundurus Hidden Power Ice vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Mega Ampharos: 234-276 (60.9 - 71.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Mold Breaker Mega Ampharos Thunderbolt vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Thundurus: 232-274 (77.3 - 91.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
If it used used Nasty Plot as you switched in, you lose. You also lose to Physical Defiant sets, which Rotom-W can actually do shit to without dying thanks to Will-O-Wisp.
4.) Rotom-W can be slapped onto pretty much any team and pull its weight, and doesn't need support (since it is the support). Mega Amphy requires too much support and isn't as easy to fit onto a team. Very few things ever want to switch into Rotom-W thanks to the combination of Will-O-Wisp, Volt Switch, and Hydro Pump, while Mega Amphy is easier to switch into (Ferrothorn and Excadrill make great switch-ins as they resist your STABs and can wall you or threaten to OHKO respectively).
5.) Mega Amphy's ability is borderline useless on it since it doesn't get anything that would benefit ability bypassing outside of ignoring Lightning Rod and Volt Absorb, which are only found on 2 OU viable Pokemon (Mega Manectric and Thundurus-T).
Not criticizing you but one thing to keep in mind is that the rankings are all hypotheticals based on what a pokemon potentially brings to the table. A pokemon can be S-rank but that won't prevent someone from using it in effectively.
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