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Metagame SV Monotype Metagame Discussion [Indigo Disk]
- Thread starter Rio Vidal
- Start date
This looks great. I'm going to load this against Trichotomy's Gouging Fire team in Circuit Playoffs, I'll lyk how it goes
In real talk, this overprep for Gouging Fire only shows how centralizing this threat is for certain typings. These sets are theory sets and no one is going to confidently bring such awful/cheese sets for a specific threat (Gouging Fire) in a competitive tour. T Furthermore, Bug vs sun Fire should just never be winnable for Bug vs a competent player but you can throw misc items on Kleavor to cheese.
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We making it out the hood with this
Now Mr Chaitanya, is this "Gouging Fire" in the room with us right now? Could this "Gouging Fire" adapt to this?
Also I don't think we're making it out of the Raging Bolt after Stealth Rock Matchup with this one, still this might have a chance against Fire maybe.
I actually never thought of Counter Forretress. That probably does well into GF not gonna lie.
slight adaptations of kleavor sets such as using stone edge to get past the rare bulwark gouging if that is truly a worry, or counter fore are not at all excessive overprep. araq doesnt even truly need ID and rest in this scenario. Too often, surprise has a huge factor in competitive tours where you're playing bo1/bo3 so there is nothing wrong with these sets. your whole post is contradictory as well considering you say you can 'throw misc items on kleavor to cheese' but then say no one is gonna bring such cheese for specific threats. The word has genuinely lost its meaning when 'cheese' should generaelly mean 'winning with minimal skill.' Winning with surprise factor, or finding new ways to beat a threat is not lacking in skill.
My post was just to show how exaggerated the overall view is. Obviously bug is going to struggle vs a fire type that can set up no one is questioning that. this is the nature of monotype and why some types will always struggle more than others. like how rock would struggle vs id zama etc etc, There are however always solutions. And there are always going to be some types that are worse than average for a reason. The harder it is to find solutions the worse the types are.
Never have we tiered because a single type had it too hard. If every type had it too hard to beat a pokemon it would be a different conversation. Figure it out or stop using niche types but complaining a niche type (regardless of what happens to said pokemon)is getting shafted will never be reasonable argument for a ban.
Right so we're running webless araquanid, Kleavor which still doesn't check without both the band + para on gf - as I said earlier, offensive Gouging Fire OHKOs at +1, and a forre who cannot come in throughout the game until it's time to check GF - and even then you're screwed if you counter on the wrong turn which isn't great considering how projected HDB Forre getting sent in would be. All the while you actively make multiple matchups worse with this, Kleavor's coverage options are absolutely useful for other matchups. Not to mention we're really limiting the utility of our entire defensive backbone. Forre really wants to make use of all 4 move slots, and since Counter is a gimmick, you end up not being able to answer all that you would other. Since it's all theorymon bs, I can take one look at this and instantly say it would not be nearly as effective in game as you're making it out to be. Dragon without Gouging Fire is more than winnable for bug. Dragon WITH Gouging Fire is still a loss with this build you're creating unless you happen to play a total buffoon.
Never did I say run all 3, I'm sorry if you got that impression and it came across like that. I thought it was obvious it wasn't meant to be all 3 and they were just potential individual checks/counters. Yes you're going to have to make up for it elsewhere. Yes they are not perfect. You bring up how grass is lacking in your post but has stopgaps, but you don't fail to see how bug has been lacking for 5 generations now? The same weaknesses have always existed and it is why it has almost always been a niche at best type.
also on kleavor use uturn and cc last two what am I missing exactly roxie
This is like arguing against mega scizor because of its mu vs ice in gen 6 lol
also on kleavor use uturn and cc last two what am I missing exactly roxie
This is like arguing against mega scizor because of its mu vs ice in gen 6 lol
Everyone post your personal unorthodox Gouging Fire check on Bug so we can keep the broken dog in the tier. I'll go first:
With Encore and Prankster, Illumise easily checks Gouging Fire and can even use Trick Lagging Tail to neuter it after it sets up. If another Dragon-type Pokemon such as Roaring Moon decides to switch in, then Dazzling Gleam beats it too. Using Sticky Web support, Kleavor then sets up and 6-0s both Fire and Dragon (Heavy Duty Boots does not exist).
If you think about it, this Illumise set is very efficient at beating Dragon as Thunder Wave beats everything Dazzling Gleam does not hit. Fire does not carry a Thunder Wave immunity either, meaning it can beat both of the types Gouging Fire is on for free.
With Encore and Prankster, Illumise easily checks Gouging Fire and can even use Trick Lagging Tail to neuter it after it sets up. If another Dragon-type Pokemon such as Roaring Moon decides to switch in, then Dazzling Gleam beats it too. Using Sticky Web support, Kleavor then sets up and 6-0s both Fire and Dragon (Heavy Duty Boots does not exist).
If you think about it, this Illumise set is very efficient at beating Dragon as Thunder Wave beats everything Dazzling Gleam does not hit. Fire does not carry a Thunder Wave immunity either, meaning it can beat both of the types Gouging Fire is on for free.
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Ooh my turn my turn
1. By using Soak, we masterfully remove Gouging Fire's STAB. With Occa Berry and Intimidate, we easily tank its fire moves while hitting back super-effectively with Giga Drain. Gouging Fire checked!
2. Feint Heracross allows us to beat even those pesky Bulwark sets! As a bonus, you even get a Moxie boost to reverse sweep! (You can't run any speed evs though, need to make sure Gouging is faster.) Gouging Fire checked!
3. Finally, we have FEAR Pineco. Simply Pain Split until Gouging is weak enough, then Sand Tomb to win. (Morning Sun? What's that?) Gouging Fire checked!
1. By using Soak, we masterfully remove Gouging Fire's STAB. With Occa Berry and Intimidate, we easily tank its fire moves while hitting back super-effectively with Giga Drain. Gouging Fire checked!
2. Feint Heracross allows us to beat even those pesky Bulwark sets! As a bonus, you even get a Moxie boost to reverse sweep! (You can't run any speed evs though, need to make sure Gouging is faster.) Gouging Fire checked!
3. Finally, we have FEAR Pineco. Simply Pain Split until Gouging is weak enough, then Sand Tomb to win. (Morning Sun? What's that?) Gouging Fire checked!
Yo, let me show y'all why Gouging Fire is not broken. You guys just have to think out of the box. Put on your thinking CAPs now!
This thing outspeeds Gouging Fire and absolutely wallops it with a boosted Outrage. Bug clearly has a decent answer to Gouging Fire! I don't know what all this Ban clamor is all about. Look, this even beats Dragon! Maybe we're underestimating Bug with Miasmaw.
go play CAP Monotype
This thing outspeeds Gouging Fire and absolutely wallops it with a boosted Outrage. Bug clearly has a decent answer to Gouging Fire! I don't know what all this Ban clamor is all about. Look, this even beats Dragon! Maybe we're underestimating Bug with Miasmaw.
Everyone post your personal unorthodox Gouging Fire check on Bug so we can keep the broken dog in the tier. I'll go first:
With Encore and Prankster, Illumise easily checks Gouging Fire and can even use Trick Lagging Tail to neuter it after it sets up. If another Dragon-type Pokemon such as Roaring Moon decides to switch in, then Dazzling Gleam beats it too. Using Sticky Web support, Kleavor then sets up and 6-0s both Fire and Dragon (Heavy Duty Boots does not exist).
If you think about it, this Illumise set is very efficient at beating Dragon as Thunder Wave beats everything Dazzling Gleam does not hit. Fire does not carry a Thunder Wave immunity either, meaning it can beat both of the types Gouging Fire is on for free.
Adding onto the list of checks:
Ribombee @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Shield Dust
Tera Type: Bug
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Moonblast
- Trick
- Sticky Web
- Stun Spore
Twaves +1 gourging fire while bringing general utility in other MUs.
Galvantula @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Compound Eyes
Tera Type: Bug
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Thunder Wave
- Thunder
- Sticky Web
- Giga Drain
Works exactly the same way as the set above
If you can keep hazards off, focus sash works on the above mons as well. In fact, with hazard control there's more checks like sash Vivillon/Kleavor/Yanmega.
If none of these are of any interest to you, then there is a check that works even against +2 gouging with rocks on bug's side and chipped:
Heracross @ Custap Berry
Ability: Swarm/Guts
Tera Type: Bug
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Endure
- Endeavor
- Reversal
- Megahorn/Spikes/Close Combat/SD/etc
Even with 252 HP evs, gouging fire takes 23% recoil from flare blitz. This means:
252+ Atk Heracross Reversal (200 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Gouging Fire: 297-349 (71.7 - 84.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
is generally enough to kill. Variants with raging fury are locked into it, so you can click endeavor against those and easily revenge kill with any priority move.
More to the point--yes, Gourging fire is very strong against Bug, this is nothing new. However, the simple truth is that there is a lot of mons that outright solo types these days--Pao solos grass with minimal support; Sub ID Zamazenta solos normal and Steel with Crunch; Sucker punch + crunch Chien-Pao eats ghost alive (252 Atk Sword of Ruin Chien-Pao Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Flutter Mane: 234-276 (93.2 - 109.9%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO; 100% after SR or adamant); Serperior and Raging Bolt solo water (Serp even gets webs + Rillaboom terrain support!); Scizor eats ice and rock alive; etc etc etc. Monotype is just matchup based and types will have a lot of problems/autolose with certain mons; that's just how the tier works; it doesn't mean that the mon 6-0ing the type is broken or unhealthy. If we want to start banning things that 6-0 types, we can start by suspecting Scizor since that mon's been guilty for several generations now (and before you complain about "niche" checks above; are any of them really any more niche than Sash counter weavile on ice?).
The Hera set is heat - though yeah not a check and also doesn't work on Burning Bulwark variants. I also think this community doesn't know what a check is, considering neither Galvantula or Ribombee listed are checks. I have used Scarf Ribombee in the past though, I think pre DLC1, it's fun for a few things. But yeah not a check here.
Love the memes.Everyone post your personal unorthodox Gouging Fire check on Bug so we can keep the broken dog in the tier. I'll go first:
With Encore and Prankster, Illumise easily checks Gouging Fire and can even use Trick Lagging Tail to neuter it after it sets up. If another Dragon-type Pokemon such as Roaring Moon decides to switch in, then Dazzling Gleam beats it too. Using Sticky Web support, Kleavor then sets up and 6-0s both Fire and Dragon (Heavy Duty Boots does not exist).
If you think about it, this Illumise set is very efficient at beating Dragon as Thunder Wave beats everything Dazzling Gleam does not hit. Fire does not carry a Thunder Wave immunity either, meaning it can beat both of the types Gouging Fire is on for free.
I'd pointed out before what I believe past precedent is, you can go back and read that if youw ant. I'd be down to tutor also if you want to learn how to use bug at a high skill point in past gens.
Just gonna point out that even in your own examples of other mons that solo types, you list mons that don't solo types. For one Crunch ID Zamazenta does below 50% to bulky Gholdengo - a set we'd seen multiple times, including in MWP and MPL. Pao has actual checks on ghost which are both viable and commonly run - Will o Dirge would check the set you just mentioned, Mimi though less common these days does as well, many ghost teams include a mon with a colbur berry too (even Raging Bolt I'd seen brought up by the likes of Starfire as being problematic in this tier). You then go to include Serperior - a low usage mon on a low viability type that does in fact have checks. Ice Beam Choice Gren for one.
Gonna say that I have in fact pointed out the "monotype moments" that exist with specific mons in an earlier post on the subject.
C: The Prevalence of a mon/types and team support a mon has. A pretty good example here is Breloom or Scizor. Breloom is a bit of a cheat code vs. water, there are checks sure, but it's another one of those cases we write up as "a monotype moment". That being said, not only is it not common on fighting, but it's secondary type is Grass which already wins the water mu and is a D tier type. In addition, there's enough counterplay for Water to not be a complete autoloss. Similarly with Scizor, it's probably the worst mon a fairy player could run into. That being said, there're still answers with Foul Play Klefki, along the likes of unaware clef with a fire move for example or something with a babiri berry, Ice users used to rely on HP Fire whereas now they often rely on snow's defense boost + screens to take the hits allowing for more options to 1v1, and Rock has Coalossal or something a bit less common like Rhyperior or bulkier Harcanine.
You said monotype is matchup based. I agree. That being said, I at least believe there's always been a precedent followed for how problematic a mon can be vs. a type. Gouging Fire was suspected for a number of reasons - it's mu vs. bug wasn't really brought up vs. the suspect, but I believe Gouging Fire breaks past precedent. That's what all this back and forth has ben about. It's flipping an otherwise neutral matchup, to become pretty much unplayable, all the while the forum has become nothing less than a meme from what are clearly memes for "how bug can beat Gouging Fire" - which aren't checks half the time not to mention the ones that are are unreliable checks at best. All the while we see a council member fully displaying that they do not in fact know what a check is. No, Kleavor running Stone Edge isn't a check.
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scizor steel in oras and sm vs ice lets talk about that precedent. Because people were clamoring for years for a scizor ban on the basis rock and ice couldnt beat it, and frankly that is top dog considering how pitiful scizor was for multiple types. thousands of times it was brought up and no one took it serious. 'ice users used to rely on hp fire' does not remotely go into what was needed to have a chance in that mu. A babiri berry or two with double hp fire still did not get past ferro+tran scarf exca with any consistency when scizor could come in and bp for free, add to that it was near impossible to keep off rocks, that mu was much much worse.
Bug is not suddenly jumping into a much higher tier if gouging got banned. Would it get better? probably. But its weaknesses will always remain and historically it has been a poor type for many of the same reasons it would continue to be in this meta. Sure it's usable, I've always been a believer in virtually every type being usable, but a lack of a solid water switchin, no elec immune, weak to fires and rocks, ineffective vs steel flying etc etc. All of which are extremely common in pokemon will always heavily cap its ceiling. Whether u think gouging is broken or not is one thing (give it some time we just banned bax abeg) but thinking this breaks precedent is just false. We can disagree about how much better bug would get which is fine but bottom line is it wouldn't be close to being considered a well above average type. Gouging might end up broken but a pokemon absolutely destroying one single type has never been cause for a ban.
This is just plain untrue. A scizor ban was considered at one point, specifically because of ice (rock had ways of dealing with it that it would run anyway, it's main problem was being the worst type at the time, mostly due to inconsistent accuracy, being outsped by the entire meta sans aero and the occasional archeops). However, it was very apparent that even without scizor being available, both matchups against steel and bug would still be horribly lopsided. The reason for bug, is that the somewhat limited pool of viable bug pokemon happen to consist mostly of extremely threatening pokemon for ice, most prominently volcarona and heracross (or your favourite flavor of bug/fighting later on), usually accompanied by at least one rock/bug type. It was so common for bug to run 4 pokemon besides scizor that could OHKO most pokemon specifically not built for their defensive side, that the matchup was considered harder than the steel one, which, funnily enough, rarely ran scizor after gen 5, having better options for megas, durability and priority. Seeing as the one pokemon being removed wouldn't do much to balance the matchups, there was no decision to ban it.
I for one enjoy Bax being gone. It's sheer bulk + setup capabilities in Swords Dance made it so dire to go against it in the metagame. Having access to Ice Shard didn't make it any better at all. But hey its gone, we're still here building and battlin! All i say now building can be less stressful and always having one less threat to build for is appreciated. On both types Bax had an amazing prescence, from A Veil, Hypnosis, and Snow from Ice to make it hard to break. Or from having H Wish support on Dragon. The big bad Dragon shown why it was sweeping away the competition and resulted in the ban. [It was that op it survived the first suspect.]
Like always we're going to be ok, trust - boomp
I admit I'm purposefully using the term check/counter a bit looser than the actual definition of the word, but if you're going to argue that something isn't a check/counter by definition I expect you to know what the definition is and apply it correctly.
To recap the actual definition:
Pokémon A checks Pokémon B if, when Pokémon A is given a free switch into Pokémon B, Pokémon A can win every time, even under the worst case scenario, without factoring in hax. (Note: this is under standard field conditions, which is SR, no spikes, no webs, no reflect/ligthscreen)
Pokémon A counters Pokémon B if Pokémon A can manually switch into Pokémon B and still win every time, even under the worst case scenario, without factoring in hax.
https://www.smogon.com/smog/issue32/checks-and-counters
Of note:
If a Pokémon gets a "free switch" in, that means it gets to enter the field without the opponent being able to immediately make a move on it. For example, a common way that you get a free switch is after one of your Pokémon faints; your next Pokémon is allowed to enter the field without immediately being attacked. If one of your Pokémon is "manually switched" in, then your Pokémon allows the opponent to make a move without your Pokémon being able to respond in that turn. Your opponent's move doesn't have to be damaging. If your opponent uses Swords Dance as you manually switch in, your opponent still has an advantage as opposed to if you had gotten a free switch. A manual switch is exactly what it sounds like; the most common way is literally switching out during your turn instead of attacking. There is one subtlety. For example, a Ground-type switching into an Electric-type move will not be affected at all, so this counts as a free switch because the Ground-type incurred no punishment upon switching in.
I've generally shied away from using these definitions lately because I've found that people don't like what the definitions tell them and say "you're wrong" to statements that are true by definition. For example:
1. Standard Hazard Garchomp is a counter to Specs Chi-Yu.
Viz:
252 SpA Choice Specs Beads of Ruin Chi-Yu Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Garchomp: 306-361 (72.8 - 85.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock (modest is 1/16 to kill with rocks chip)
0 Atk Garchomp Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Chi-Yu: 324-384 (129 - 152.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Garchomp can switch into any attack and force Chi-Yu out; it is a counter by definition.
2. Urshifu-Rapid-Strike is a counter to SD Baxcalibur.
Viz:
252+ Atk Baxcalibur Glaive Rush vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Urshifu-Rapid-Strike: 232-274 (68 - 80.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Baxcalibur Ice Shard vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Urshifu-Rapid-Strike: 39-46 (11.4 - 13.4%) -- possible 7HKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Urshifu-Rapid-Strike Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Baxcalibur: 422-498 (113.7 - 134.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Urshifu can switch into any attack and force Baxcalibur out as the combination of Glaive Rush + Ice Shard does not kill; it is a counter by definition.
3. Zapdos-Galar is a counter to Black Glasses Adamant Urshifu-Single-Strike:
252+ Atk Black Glasses Urshifu Wicked Blow vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Zapdos-Galar on a critical hit: 132-156 (41.1 - 48.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ Atk Black Glasses Urshifu Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Zapdos-Galar: 82-97 (25.5 - 30.2%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
252 Atk Zapdos-Galar Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Urshifu: 380-450 (111.4 - 131.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
It can come into any move and win 1v1; it is a counter by definition.
Anyways, now that we have the definitions out the way let's look at some of the bug checks mentioned above:
1. Iron Defense Araquanid is a counter to Gourging Fire:
+1 252 Atk Gouging Fire Flare Blitz vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Water Bubble Araquanid: 102-121 (30 - 35.6%) -- 34% chance to 3HKO
You can easily set up Iron Defense and win 1v1 with Rest; this is a counter by definition.
2. Banded Kleavor with Stone Edge is a not a check to Gourging Fire:
252 Atk Gouging Fire Flare Blitz vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Kleavor: 187-222 (66.5 - 79%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Choice Band Kleavor Stone Edge vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Gouging Fire: 428-506 (121.9 - 144.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
It wins 1v1 the majority of the time, but not under the worst case scenario it is a not a check by definition (sorry Chait!).
3. Cutsap Heracross is a check to non-Bulwark Gourging Fire:
Stated above; assuming a free switch it can come in and trade.
Even with 252 HP evs, gouging fire takes 23% recoil from flare blitz. This means:
252+ Atk Heracross Reversal (200 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Gouging Fire: 297-349 (71.7 - 84.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
is generally enough to kill. Variants with raging fury are locked into it, so you can click endeavor against those and easily revenge kill with any priority move. Regardless it wins 1v1 so it is a check by definition.
I don't understand how you can say some of these sets, like Araquanid and Heracross, "Are not checks" when they are by definition, unless you do not know what the definition of a check actually is.
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Okay can we stop talking about xyz and Chaitanyas over prep for Burning Bulwark. The point here is that these sets are all ass and uncompetitive. Like these would get rejected in sample teams / c&c expeditiously. It’s pretty clear Bug sucks however, we shouldn’t be sharing such gimmick sets because it’s so centralizing that it doesn’t have any value but for specific interactions. Like look at this thread no one is taking this seriously..
Just because sets are "gimmicky/ass/uncompetitive" and would get rejected from samples doesn't mean that players can't use them and have success with them. For example, this team would obviously get rejected for samples for being "gimmicky/ass/uncompetitive" but I've had plenty of success with it on ladder and I've seen people bring it to tournaments and win. Overall I find this attitude extremely unproductive as it overly dismisses creative ideas.
My one and only post to this and we will go back to the metagame discussion. Using gimmicky type sets unfortunately will not get you chosen to have it as a sample. A sample team in essence is a reliable team that one can use no matter whatever the circumstance. This meta is ever changing and so are the sets. So let’s reel it back in and make more reliable sets that can be used in this ever changing metagame.
Very interesting discussion guys.
Anyways, Baxcalibur has been the first ban vote of DLC2, pretty exciting. Looking forward to how the meta shapes in the next few weeks and how people feel by the time the next survey drops. Speaking of the coming meta, some short thoughts/predicts of my own for how the types may shift from before the suspect.
Dragon has lost a big piece, and I don't think anything could truly fill Baxcalibur's shoes the same way (thankfully), but space for experimenting with a lot of other options is now open.
and 
are some immediate examples that come to mind, with Kyurem being a strong flying/ground/water/dragon breaker, ice neutral, and could have decent set variety with specs, boots, dd sets etc. Raging Bolt is similarly strong into Flying and Water, and is also able to be extremely annoying into types like Fairy and Fighting that otherwise can harass Dragon fairly hard. 
is an amazing steel and poison breaker w/sub nasty plot, and provides a very much appreciated ghost resist + ground immune in a single slot. 
probably also has some merit with specs/boots knock off sets and such into steel. 
could be great, once again a ground immunity but one that can take a more immediately threatening DD sweeper angle that can be teched to beat a handful of types. Banded could be cool too, dragon could use the physical firepower with Baxcalibur's death. 
I don't have much to say on. Bulky regen attacker, owns water/ground, its fatness can be annoying in other matchups too. The mirror matchup changes a ton aswell, so I'm interested to see how people go about building for that (scarf dragapult speed tie time?)
Ground getting even stronger is insane, and is definitely the type that will force dragon teams to adapt the hardest. Ursaluna and Excadrill are hard enough to handle as is, but with Baxcalibur gone now even Landorus becomes a complete demon for dragon to face. Mixed
is also something worth experimenting with, it was already quite solid in bax-meta IMO, but there was always the issue that a -2 Garchomp allowed bax to SD for free which sucked like crazy. has already been quite the menace and will continue to get better as this meta proceeds, so personally it is #1 on my watchlist, and I'm sure a good bit of people feel the same.
Ground buffed, dragon nerfed, time for this type to reignite its place back up in the meta I'd imagine. Sure Kyurem/Bolt Dragons will still exist, but
+ fat styles could find themselves managing one way or another. becomes harder to force out for Dragon, and even the things that can like scarf Roaring Moon/Latios, Raging Bolt, Goodra-H, are all mons that can be switched into a little less annoyingly for Flying; as opposed to Bax who could SD on the forced swap and force uncomfortable turns (worth noting that with rocks up and high-ish rolls, +2 icicle crash could 2hko Skarmory even if it iron defences after the first crash. Was annoying.) flyings will be fun as well, considering all of steel, fire, dragon, and ground hate switching into this pokemon.
While dragon may have a lot of annoying shit for poison to deal with, Bax always felt like the truly unbeatable one.
and will still be difficult to handle, but overall excited to see how this types matchups evolve. That being said, flying and ground being better definitely still sucks for poison so don't get too excited using this type.
Normal was already rising a decent bit towards the end of the previous meta, and in the normal vs dragon matchup, Baxcalibur often felt like the biggest threat to switch into. For Ursaluna specifically, most of the dragons with the ability to force it out invite in
pretty freely, so overall I think Normal has been buffed by this ban.
Some final notes, ice is obviously significantly worse, and water is something we will have to see how it plays out; its matchups into kyurem/bolt are dire, but the normal/ground/fire/steel etc can struggle with rain pretty heavily, so water might pop off. Types like Fire, Fairy, and Steel I don't think change drastically beyond having to adapt to new dragon usages (bolt is annoying for fairy, hydreigon for steel, literally anything for fire). Overall though, excited to see what people come up with and showcase in SV cup/seasonals final few rounds, and how we decide to tier in the future.
Anyways, Baxcalibur has been the first ban vote of DLC2, pretty exciting. Looking forward to how the meta shapes in the next few weeks and how people feel by the time the next survey drops. Speaking of the coming meta, some short thoughts/predicts of my own for how the types may shift from before the suspect.
Dragon has lost a big piece, and I don't think anything could truly fill Baxcalibur's shoes the same way (thankfully), but space for experimenting with a lot of other options is now open.
and are some immediate examples that come to mind, with Kyurem being a strong flying/ground/water/dragon breaker, ice neutral, and could have decent set variety with specs, boots, dd sets etc. Raging Bolt is similarly strong into Flying and Water, and is also able to be extremely annoying into types like Fairy and Fighting that otherwise can harass Dragon fairly hard. is an amazing steel and poison breaker w/sub nasty plot, and provides a very much appreciated ghost resist + ground immune in a single slot. probably also has some merit with specs/boots knock off sets and such into steel. could be great, once again a ground immunity but one that can take a more immediately threatening DD sweeper angle that can be teched to beat a handful of types. Banded could be cool too, dragon could use the physical firepower with Baxcalibur's death. I don't have much to say on. Bulky regen attacker, owns water/ground, its fatness can be annoying in other matchups too. The mirror matchup changes a ton aswell, so I'm interested to see how people go about building for that (scarf dragapult speed tie time?) Ground getting even stronger is insane, and is definitely the type that will force dragon teams to adapt the hardest. Ursaluna and Excadrill are hard enough to handle as is, but with Baxcalibur gone now even Landorus becomes a complete demon for dragon to face. Mixed
is also something worth experimenting with, it was already quite solid in bax-meta IMO, but there was always the issue that a -2 Garchomp allowed bax to SD for free which sucked like crazy. has already been quite the menace and will continue to get better as this meta proceeds, so personally it is #1 on my watchlist, and I'm sure a good bit of people feel the same. Ground buffed, dragon nerfed, time for this type to reignite its place back up in the meta I'd imagine. Sure Kyurem/Bolt Dragons will still exist, but
+ fat styles could find themselves managing one way or another. becomes harder to force out for Dragon, and even the things that can like scarf Roaring Moon/Latios, Raging Bolt, Goodra-H, are all mons that can be switched into a little less annoyingly for Flying; as opposed to Bax who could SD on the forced swap and force uncomfortable turns (worth noting that with rocks up and high-ish rolls, +2 icicle crash could 2hko Skarmory even if it iron defences after the first crash. Was annoying.) flyings will be fun as well, considering all of steel, fire, dragon, and ground hate switching into this pokemon. While dragon may have a lot of annoying shit for poison to deal with, Bax always felt like the truly unbeatable one.
and will still be difficult to handle, but overall excited to see how this types matchups evolve. That being said, flying and ground being better definitely still sucks for poison so don't get too excited using this type. Normal was already rising a decent bit towards the end of the previous meta, and in the normal vs dragon matchup, Baxcalibur often felt like the biggest threat to switch into. For Ursaluna specifically, most of the dragons with the ability to force it out invite in
pretty freely, so overall I think Normal has been buffed by this ban.Some final notes, ice is obviously significantly worse, and water is something we will have to see how it plays out; its matchups into kyurem/bolt are dire, but the normal/ground/fire/steel etc can struggle with rain pretty heavily, so water might pop off. Types like Fire, Fairy, and Steel I don't think change drastically beyond having to adapt to new dragon usages (bolt is annoying for fairy, hydreigon for steel, literally anything for fire). Overall though, excited to see what people come up with and showcase in SV cup/seasonals final few rounds, and how we decide to tier in the future.