This looks great. I'm going to load this against Trichotomy's Gouging Fire team in Circuit Playoffs, I'll lyk how it goes
We making it out the hood with this
Now Mr Chaitanya, is this "Gouging Fire" in the room with us right now? Could this "Gouging Fire" adapt to this?
I actually never thought of Counter Forretress. That probably does well into GF not gonna lie.
slight adaptations of kleavor sets such as using stone edge to get past the rare bulwark gouging if that is truly a worry, or counter fore are not at all excessive overprep. araq doesnt even truly need ID and rest in this scenario. Too often, surprise has a huge factor in competitive tours where you're playing bo1/bo3 so there is nothing wrong with these sets. your whole post is contradictory as well considering you say you can 'throw misc items on kleavor to cheese' but then say no one is gonna bring such cheese for specific threats. The word has genuinely lost its meaning when 'cheese' should generaelly mean 'winning with minimal skill.' Winning with surprise factor, or finding new ways to beat a threat is not lacking in skill.This looks great. I'm going to load this against Trichotomy's Gouging Fire team in Circuit Playoffs, I'll lyk how it goes
In real talk, this overprep for Gouging Fire only shows how centralizing this threat is for certain typings. These sets are theory sets and no one is going to confidently bring such awful/cheese sets for a specific threat (Gouging Fire) in a competitive tour. T Furthermore, Bug vs sun Fire should just never be winnable for Bug vs a competent player but you can throw misc items on Kleavor to cheese.
Right so we're running webless araquanid, Kleavor which still doesn't check without both the band + para on gf - as I said earlier, offensive Gouging Fire OHKOs at +1, and a forre who cannot come in throughout the game until it's time to check GF - and even then you're screwed if you counter on the wrong turn which isn't great considering how projected HDB Forre getting sent in would be. All the while you actively make multiple matchups worse with this, Kleavor's coverage options are absolutely useful for other matchups. Not to mention we're really limiting the utility of our entire defensive backbone. Forre really wants to make use of all 4 move slots, and since Counter is a gimmick, you end up not being able to answer all that you would other. Since it's all theorymon bs, I can take one look at this and instantly say it would not be nearly as effective in game as you're making it out to be. Dragon without Gouging Fire is more than winnable for bug. Dragon WITH Gouging Fire is still a loss with this build you're creating unless you happen to play a total buffoon.
Adding onto the list of checks:Everyone post your personal unorthodox Gouging Fire check on Bug so we can keep the broken dog in the tier. I'll go first:
With Encore and Prankster, Illumise easily checks Gouging Fire and can even use Trick Lagging Tail to neuter it after it sets up. If another Dragon-type Pokemon such as Roaring Moon decides to switch in, then Dazzling Gleam beats it too. Using Sticky Web support, Kleavor then sets up and 6-0s both Fire and Dragon (Heavy Duty Boots does not exist).
If you think about it, this Illumise set is very efficient at beating Dragon as Thunder Wave beats everything Dazzling Gleam does not hit. Fire does not carry a Thunder Wave immunity either, meaning it can beat both of the types Gouging Fire is on for free.
The Hera set is heat - though yeah not a check and also doesn't work on Burning Bulwark variants. I also think this community doesn't know what a check is, considering neither Galvantula or Ribombee listed are checks. I have used Scarf Ribombee in the past though, I think pre DLC1, it's fun for a few things. But yeah not a check here.Adding onto the list of checks:
Ribombee @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Shield Dust
Tera Type: Bug
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Moonblast
- Trick
- Sticky Web
- Stun Spore
Twaves +1 gourging fire while bringing general utility in other MUs.
Galvantula @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Compound Eyes
Tera Type: Bug
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Thunder Wave
- Thunder
- Sticky Web
- Giga Drain
Works exactly the same way as the set above
If you can keep hazards off, focus sash works on the above mons as well. In fact, with hazard control there's more checks like sash Vivillon/Kleavor/Yanmega.
If none of these are of any interest to you, then there is a check that works even against +2 gouging with rocks on bug's side and chipped:
Heracross @ Custap Berry
Ability: Swarm/Guts
Tera Type: Bug
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Endure
- Endeavor
- Reversal
- Megahorn/Spikes/Close Combat/SD/etc
Even with 252 HP evs, gouging fire takes 23% recoil from flare blitz. This means:
252+ Atk Heracross Reversal (200 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Gouging Fire: 297-349 (71.7 - 84.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
is generally enough to kill. Variants with raging fury are locked into it, so you can click endeavor against those and easily revenge kill with any priority move.
More to the point--yes, Gourging fire is very strong against Bug, this is nothing new. However, the simple truth is that there is a lot of mons that outright solo types these days--Pao solos grass with minimal support; Sub ID Zamazenta solos normal and Steel with Crunch; Sucker punch + crunch Chien-Pao eats ghost alive (252 Atk Sword of Ruin Chien-Pao Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Flutter Mane: 234-276 (93.2 - 109.9%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO; 100% after SR or adamant); Serperior and Raging Bolt solo water (Serp even gets webs + Rillaboom terrain support!); Scizor eats ice and rock alive; etc etc etc. Monotype is just matchup based and types will have a lot of problems/autolose with certain mons; that's just how the tier works; it doesn't mean that the mon 6-0ing the type is broken or unhealthy. If we want to start banning things that 6-0 types, we can start by suspecting Scizor since that mon's been guilty for several generations now (and before you complain about "niche" checks above; are any of them really any more niche than Sash counter weavile on ice?).
Love the memes.Everyone post your personal unorthodox Gouging Fire check on Bug so we can keep the broken dog in the tier. I'll go first:
With Encore and Prankster, Illumise easily checks Gouging Fire and can even use Trick Lagging Tail to neuter it after it sets up. If another Dragon-type Pokemon such as Roaring Moon decides to switch in, then Dazzling Gleam beats it too. Using Sticky Web support, Kleavor then sets up and 6-0s both Fire and Dragon (Heavy Duty Boots does not exist).
If you think about it, this Illumise set is very efficient at beating Dragon as Thunder Wave beats everything Dazzling Gleam does not hit. Fire does not carry a Thunder Wave immunity either, meaning it can beat both of the types Gouging Fire is on for free.
I'd pointed out before what I believe past precedent is, you can go back and read that if youw ant. I'd be down to tutor also if you want to learn how to use bug at a high skill point in past gens.Never did I say run all 3, I'm sorry if you got that impression and it came across like that. I thought it was obvious it wasn't meant to be all 3 and they were just potential individual checks/counters. Yes you're going to have to make up for it elsewhere. Yes they are not perfect. You bring up how grass is lacking in your post but has stopgaps, but you don't fail to see how bug has been lacking for 5 generations now? The same weaknesses have always existed and it is why it has almost always been a niche at best type.
also on kleavor use uturn and cc last two what am I missing exactly roxie
This is like arguing against mega scizor because of its mu vs ice in gen 6 lol
Just gonna point out that even in your own examples of other mons that solo types, you list mons that don't solo types. For one Crunch ID Zamazenta does below 50% to bulky Gholdengo - a set we'd seen multiple times, including in MWP and MPL. Pao has actual checks on ghost which are both viable and commonly run - Will o Dirge would check the set you just mentioned, Mimi though less common these days does as well, many ghost teams include a mon with a colbur berry too (even Raging Bolt I'd seen brought up by the likes of Starfire as being problematic in this tier). You then go to include Serperior - a low usage mon on a low viability type that does in fact have checks. Ice Beam Choice Gren for one.More to the point--yes, Gourging fire is very strong against Bug, this is nothing new. However, the simple truth is that there is a lot of mons that outright solo types these days--Pao solos grass with minimal support; Sub ID Zamazenta solos normal and Steel with Crunch; Sucker punch + crunch Chien-Pao eats ghost alive (252 Atk Sword of Ruin Chien-Pao Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Flutter Mane: 234-276 (93.2 - 109.9%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO; 100% after SR or adamant); Serperior and Raging Bolt solo water (Serp even gets webs + Rillaboom terrain support!); Scizor eats ice and rock alive; etc etc etc. Monotype is just matchup based and types will have a lot of problems/autolose with certain mons; that's just how the tier works; it doesn't mean that the mon 6-0ing the type is broken or unhealthy. If we want to start banning things that 6-0 types, we can start by suspecting Scizor since that mon's been guilty for several generations now (and before you complain about "niche" checks above; are any of them really any more niche than Sash counter weavile on ice?).
All the while we see a council member fully displaying that they do not in fact know what a check is.
potential individual checks/counters
scizor steel in oras and sm vs ice lets talk about that precedent. Because people were clamoring for years for a scizor ban on the basis rock and ice couldnt beat it, and frankly that is top dog considering how pitiful scizor was for multiple types. thousands of times it was brought up and no one took it serious. 'ice users used to rely on hp fire' does not remotely go into what was needed to have a chance in that mu. A babiri berry or two with double hp fire still did not get past ferro+tran scarf exca with any consistency when scizor could come in and bp for free, add to that it was near impossible to keep off rocks, that mu was much much worse.I'd pointed out before what I believe past precedent is, you can go back and read that if youw ant. I'd be down to tutor also if you want to learn how to use bug at a high skill point in past gens.
This is just plain untrue. A scizor ban was considered at one point, specifically because of ice (rock had ways of dealing with it that it would run anyway, it's main problem was being the worst type at the time, mostly due to inconsistent accuracy, being outsped by the entire meta sans aero and the occasional archeops). However, it was very apparent that even without scizor being available, both matchups against steel and bug would still be horribly lopsided. The reason for bug, is that the somewhat limited pool of viable bug pokemon happen to consist mostly of extremely threatening pokemon for ice, most prominently volcarona and heracross (or your favourite flavor of bug/fighting later on), usually accompanied by at least one rock/bug type. It was so common for bug to run 4 pokemon besides scizor that could OHKO most pokemon specifically not built for their defensive side, that the matchup was considered harder than the steel one, which, funnily enough, rarely ran scizor after gen 5, having better options for megas, durability and priority. Seeing as the one pokemon being removed wouldn't do much to balance the matchups, there was no decision to ban it.scizor steel in oras and sm vs ice lets talk about that precedent. Because people were clamoring for years for a scizor ban on the basis rock and ice couldnt beat it, and frankly that is top dog considering how pitiful scizor was for multiple types. thousands of times it was brought up and no one took it serious.
I for one enjoy Bax being gone. It's sheer bulk + setup capabilities in Swords Dance made it so dire to go against it in the metagame. Having access to Ice Shard didn't make it any better at all. But hey its gone, we're still here building and battlin! All i say now building can be less stressful and always having one less threat to build for is appreciated. On both types Bax had an amazing prescence, from A Veil, Hypnosis, and Snow from Ice to make it hard to break. Or from having H Wish support on Dragon. The big bad Dragon shown why it was sweeping away the competition and resulted in the ban. [It was that op it survived the first suspect.]Hey yall, it’s me again.
How do we like baxcailbur being gone? I for one really enjoy not playing against bax. I love it so far and hopefully you are enjoying it as well .
Thanks,
FadedCharm
I admit I'm purposefully using the term check/counter a bit looser than the actual definition of the word, but if you're going to argue that something isn't a check/counter by definition I expect you to know what the definition is and apply it correctly.The Hera set is heat - though yeah not a check and also doesn't work on Burning Bulwark variants. I also think this community doesn't know what a check is, considering neither Galvantula or Ribombee listed are checks. I have used Scarf Ribombee in the past though, I think pre DLC1, it's fun for a few things. But yeah not a check here.
[more stuff]
All the while we see a council member fully displaying that they do not in fact know what a check is. No, Kleavor running Stone Edge isn't a check.
Just because sets are "gimmicky/ass/uncompetitive" and would get rejected from samples doesn't mean that players can't use them and have success with them. For example, this team would obviously get rejected for samples for being "gimmicky/ass/uncompetitive" but I've had plenty of success with it on ladder and I've seen people bring it to tournaments and win. Overall I find this attitude extremely unproductive as it overly dismisses creative ideas.Okay can we stop talking about xyz and Chaitanyas over prep for Burning Bulwark. The point here is that these sets are all ass and uncompetitive. Like these would get rejected in sample teams / c&c expeditiously. It’s pretty clear Bug sucks however, we shouldn’t be sharing such gimmick sets because it’s so centralizing that it doesn’t have any value but for specific interactions. Like look at this thread no one is taking this seriously..
Hey yall, it’s me again.
How do we like baxcailbur being gone? I for one really enjoy not playing against bax. I love it so far and hopefully you are enjoying it as well .
Thanks,
FadedCharm
My one and only post to this and we will go back to the metagame discussion. Using gimmicky type sets unfortunately will not get you chosen to have it as a sample. A sample team in essence is a reliable team that one can use no matter whatever the circumstance. This meta is ever changing and so are the sets. So let’s reel it back in and make more reliable sets that can be used in this ever changing metagame.Just because sets are "gimmicky/ass/uncompetitive" and would get rejected from samples doesn't mean that players can't use them and have success with them. For example, this team would obviously get rejected for samples for being "gimmicky/ass/uncompetitive" but I've had plenty of success with it on ladder and I've seen people bring it to tournaments and win. Overall I find this attitude extremely unproductive as it overly dismisses creative ideas.