PLEASE low tiers. literally anything but vgc. do regular doubles, do 2 ss, do randbats draft, do rock paper scissors, just NO MORE VGC
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Tournament DCL II - Format Discussion
- Thread starter Princess Autumn
- Start date
- Status
Why vgc should not be part of this tour:
The vgc draft community is very small and the best players do not play this format. Note lowest signups numbers of all open draft tours. Who is even the best vgc draft player? Who knows? Who cares?
The vast majority of players do not understand this format and are totally unable to assist in prep or drafting phase.
The format itself is just bad, every game has a distinct coinflip feel to it. The fact that it needs to be bo3 should give you some clue to this. No serious format should ever need to be played bo3.
it doesn’t even matter what the last format is because there’s no other format that has all these flaws. It’s the worst possible option. But I’d go for low tiers because it’s fun and anyone can understand it while still being competitive.
The vgc draft community is very small and the best players do not play this format. Note lowest signups numbers of all open draft tours. Who is even the best vgc draft player? Who knows? Who cares?
The vast majority of players do not understand this format and are totally unable to assist in prep or drafting phase.
The format itself is just bad, every game has a distinct coinflip feel to it. The fact that it needs to be bo3 should give you some clue to this. No serious format should ever need to be played bo3.
it doesn’t even matter what the last format is because there’s no other format that has all these flaws. It’s the worst possible option. But I’d go for low tiers because it’s fun and anyone can understand it while still being competitive.
I think there is no answer that holds any objective weight above others. I personally wouldn’t mind an sv natdex tier for a few reasons. I think adding an extra old gen tier is just completely arbitrary unless we cut vgc and doubled 2 of them which isn’t happening. I ultimately don’t mind a double vgc however the tour was having act wins like right into top cut at an alarming rate and had 1/3 sign ups compared to even a natdex or oras. I think it’s ultimately on the caps to find supports not the tour to add more of a tier that is generally disliked to potentially enhance it.
My case for natdex is I believe it cleared 500 sign ups. It has like the second most play time on ps of draft tiers and is a large community subsection. I do think that subsection is generally far less skilled but it is a thing. I worry it’s an extra sv tier however no tera and higher power level make it unique to an extent and at least everyone can support it. Natdex was an engaged popular tour and I think it’s the most logical even if it’s a Mickey tier.
My case for natdex is I believe it cleared 500 sign ups. It has like the second most play time on ps of draft tiers and is a large community subsection. I do think that subsection is generally far less skilled but it is a thing. I worry it’s an extra sv tier however no tera and higher power level make it unique to an extent and at least everyone can support it. Natdex was an engaged popular tour and I think it’s the most logical even if it’s a Mickey tier.
There is no clear answer for choosing one gen over another here, but there is an unpopular choice here that I think goes best with smogdraft precedent of what are deemed as "viable/important" metagames.
-SV Natdex: Had the most signups of any tour, but signups seem semi unreliable as a metric because there is context needed of what other leagues and events were going on at the same time. That being said, it can't be totally ignored, but the main reason against it is because much of the community seems to see SV natdex as miserable. Probably a no for this.
-Second USUM/ORAS: Choosing one over the other seems arbitrary. If we want to continue with the signups argument, then second oras here but I think that's also probably a no too.
-Second VGC: Nice to have 2 spots to give VGC spots a prep buddy, but the VGC players feeling abandoned is more on the fault of the captain imo. Although the context of the big VGC team tour happening at the same time of the VGC smogtour means the signup numbers are less valuable to consider, they can't be ignored, and in a team tour in a primarily singles community, it seems difficult to weigh VGC so highly. That being said, if we wanted to mix it up a bit and do this approach, we could look into other VGC metagames. Perhaps SV VGC Reg F as the 1 slot, and SWSH VGC as the 2 slot? Needs more discussion but could be a maybe?
-Remove VGC and double ORAS+USUM: While this is going to receive backlash from the VGC community, it would probably be the most popular decision. This decision would keep the tour in Category A/B which removes the argument of not including any of the other Cat C tiers but including VGC. The main argument against this other than VGC being unhappy is that it arbitrarily favors USUM and ORAS over SWSH, but I think that's probably the community consensus anyway. This could be a maybe?
-Low Tier/Ubers/LC: I would love this personally, but it seems hard to argue one over the other. Probably no.
-SV Natdex: Had the most signups of any tour, but signups seem semi unreliable as a metric because there is context needed of what other leagues and events were going on at the same time. That being said, it can't be totally ignored, but the main reason against it is because much of the community seems to see SV natdex as miserable. Probably a no for this.
-Second USUM/ORAS: Choosing one over the other seems arbitrary. If we want to continue with the signups argument, then second oras here but I think that's also probably a no too.
-Second VGC: Nice to have 2 spots to give VGC spots a prep buddy, but the VGC players feeling abandoned is more on the fault of the captain imo. Although the context of the big VGC team tour happening at the same time of the VGC smogtour means the signup numbers are less valuable to consider, they can't be ignored, and in a team tour in a primarily singles community, it seems difficult to weigh VGC so highly. That being said, if we wanted to mix it up a bit and do this approach, we could look into other VGC metagames. Perhaps SV VGC Reg F as the 1 slot, and SWSH VGC as the 2 slot? Needs more discussion but could be a maybe?
-Remove VGC and double ORAS+USUM: While this is going to receive backlash from the VGC community, it would probably be the most popular decision. This decision would keep the tour in Category A/B which removes the argument of not including any of the other Cat C tiers but including VGC. The main argument against this other than VGC being unhappy is that it arbitrarily favors USUM and ORAS over SWSH, but I think that's probably the community consensus anyway. This could be a maybe?
-Low Tier/Ubers/LC: I would love this personally, but it seems hard to argue one over the other. Probably no.
i think 2nd usum slot is the best choice. i dont really like the idea that somehow all the past gen singles formats should be treated the same. It feels like a very surface level view when in reality they are all kind of their own, distinct meta. usum easily has the best dex and depth to it, which in my opinion, allows it to benefit the most from having an additional slot. from talking to usum mains they seem to all much prefer having another team to draft from. i think there is some merit to double vgc idea, but comparatively both ss/oras feel like very stagnant metas that wouldn’t be interesting for another slot.
edit: i would also like to say that regardless of what gets the additional slot, past gens should absolutely have more drafts per tier. even if ss/usum/oras/vgc only have 1 game in the slot, i think having 3 drafts to choose from could only add to the game and even help more in terms of rematches and playoffs. i also think theres potential to just change what format gets the extra slot every week, then allowing higher seed to just choose it for playoffs.
edit: i would also like to say that regardless of what gets the additional slot, past gens should absolutely have more drafts per tier. even if ss/usum/oras/vgc only have 1 game in the slot, i think having 3 drafts to choose from could only add to the game and even help more in terms of rematches and playoffs. i also think theres potential to just change what format gets the extra slot every week, then allowing higher seed to just choose it for playoffs.
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If SV Natdex were chosen what would the policy on Tera be?
SmogDraft Council is adamant that it stays banned in SV NatDex, and I doubt this changes for DCL or DFL.
Sounds totally fair to me. I don't quite understand why there's so much backlash to it. I think it's better to represent NatDex than to double up on something that already has a slot in the tour, especially since NatDex is pretty popular.
if swsh isnt being doubled as "newest oldgen" then picking either oras or usum feels random even if they both have their nuances and all of them are different tiers. if vgc cant be doubled cause u dont want a singles community flagship tour to have 25% not singles then i dont understand why it should be 12.5% not singles either. just scrap it entirely
If more people want to play USUM as the additional slot, I feel like that is a more valid reason than one gen being more recent. They are all past gens, what difference does it make if one is more recent. As I mentioned before, USUM has more depth as a tier as well which would benefit more from having more slots. SwSh has a lot less depth and having more games is going to make that problem more apparent.
Honestly I don't think there is a clear cut answer here as to what extra slot gets added. The arguments made for a second oldgen in this thread have been fairly equally valid between usum and oras, and I don't think many people would be upset if one or the other was chosen. I do however think we should "limit" the amount of VGC slots this tour has, as it seems to be subsection of the community with the lowest representation, so forcing an extra VGC slot seems wasteful when that slot could otherwise be used on a tier with a much larger playerbase. Furthermore, if our criteria for selecting ORAS/USUM over SWSH is that there is a lot more interest in these tiers, then the same argument can be made that VGC has EVEN LESS interest and thus should not be considered over ORAS/USUM either.
All this is to say that it seems like the choice that would result in the least backlash is to double one of the oldgens, and to stop considering a second VGC slot.
All this is to say that it seems like the choice that would result in the least backlash is to double one of the oldgens, and to stop considering a second VGC slot.
FWIW on all of the VGC slot 2 discussion since this is just going in circles and I'd rather not dogpile it.
VGC had a strong outcry in the previous DCL to have a slot included, and while I don't know how much overlap there is between the singles and VGC draft player-base, excluding it from this tour seems needlessly cruel, and potentially isolates a subsection of the community. I do think there's a discussion to be had next year wrt tournament attendance and keeping it in, but I see no reason to remove it this year.
Adding a second VGC slot is effectively a non-starter to me. Although we can argue and give excuses that signup numbers aren't the be-all end-all for discussions like this, a clear lack of engagement towards the existing tournaments in our circuit (both in terms of signup numbers and games played during the tournament) does not warrant an additional slot compared to metas whose tours more than triple its size. If VGC players aren't getting proper support, that falls on the managers to draft proper support for their players, not on the tour organizers giving the meta an additional slot. I think removing it entirely is a next year discussion though, with manager signups opening in a few weeks with VGC players promised a spot I don't think it makes sense to fully cut a meta from the tour.
The realistic options ultimately are ORAS, USUM, and SV Natdex. All of these are seemingly very popular formats from our tournament signup numbers. I don't think there's an objective correct answer to this, and I think weighing oldgen vs Natdex for the slot depends on where our priorities lie in this tournament. Natdex is more popular with the more scattered portions of the draft playerbase, and I think it's fair to say from how our tournaments are run this gen it is objectively less developed than Paldea Dex and oldgen formats. An additional oldgen slot, meanwhile, includes a further developed meta that would have wider appeal to the more established older playerbases in past team tours. One could argue that saying this is elitist or circular reasoning in that metas and players will never develop if not given a chance in high level competition. However, for a tour like DCL which should be the pinnacle of draft competition, I believe it is best to appeal to the more skilled and established playerbase that oldgens have. I'm truly not too fussed as to which oldgen is given a 2nd slot since I haven't played either extensively, my inclination would be USUM off of being more modern and seemingly more support here, but if a broader consensus favoring ORAS is reached I don't have a problem with that.
The realistic options ultimately are ORAS, USUM, and SV Natdex. All of these are seemingly very popular formats from our tournament signup numbers. I don't think there's an objective correct answer to this, and I think weighing oldgen vs Natdex for the slot depends on where our priorities lie in this tournament. Natdex is more popular with the more scattered portions of the draft playerbase, and I think it's fair to say from how our tournaments are run this gen it is objectively less developed than Paldea Dex and oldgen formats. An additional oldgen slot, meanwhile, includes a further developed meta that would have wider appeal to the more established older playerbases in past team tours. One could argue that saying this is elitist or circular reasoning in that metas and players will never develop if not given a chance in high level competition. However, for a tour like DCL which should be the pinnacle of draft competition, I believe it is best to appeal to the more skilled and established playerbase that oldgens have. I'm truly not too fussed as to which oldgen is given a 2nd slot since I haven't played either extensively, my inclination would be USUM off of being more modern and seemingly more support here, but if a broader consensus favoring ORAS is reached I don't have a problem with that.
It's important to note that the VGC tour was NOT part of the circuit, and there was a transition between it being hosted on main server from the vgc server that was awkward during the period of signups. As others have mentioned, this affected the turnout. Another thing to note is that the tour was Swiss, which is highly unpopular in the community, as compared to the pools format. The formatting is likely part of the reason for the heavy amount of FFLs that were given, and should be considered for future tours but that's a conversation for another thread. Furthermore, the tour was also going on at the same time as circuit tours, dampening the signup pool even more so. While you are right numbers are not the end all be all, it's being cited as the main reasoning for potentially cutting the format and the main argument against adding another slot.
Now for my opinions -
While I don't think adding a VGC 2 slot is 100% necessary at this point in the tour, I do think this is something that should be approached in the future, not cutting the format entirely as this would be a slap in the face to the community. I'm rather new within the draft scene, but from what I have seen so far playing in STC and other VGC tours is that there is a large enough serious player base. The concerns I have heard from last DCL are valid, with VGC players not having the support that the singles players have within multiple formats and being 75% of the tour is still more than enough for the "primarily singles based community" to have its singles majority.
If we can't give VGC 2 slots it should probably be killed entirely for next year... 1 slot seems very poverty. It's not like the playerbase largely overlaps, like Oras and usum.
From my understanding DCL will run with this format:
3 sv
1 swsh
1 usum
1 Oras
1 VGC
1 filler, can be natdex, usum, or Oras
Tbh I don't see a large need to be Bo8 when the last slot doesn't seem to have an obvious answer. Bo7 is perfectly fine, even if I personally like the dynamics ties introduce.
If Bo8 is mandatory in your guys head, just pick usum it's the most interesting oldgen to watch and play + has a huge playerbase to draw from
I see mention of 3 drafts for 1 slot. While I would love to see this tested, I must say I am not looking forward to having 16 drafts to worry about (Realistically 13 bc VGC omegalul). Dpl has run with 10 drafts for a few seasons now and I already feel like my entire week is dedicated to drafting. From when I wake up to when I go to sleep, there is always discussion happening and people trying to int drafts that must be stopped. Also, I don't foresee all 3 drafts getting major playtime anyways so it's def gonna skew some stats if you decide to start tracking mons/draft stats
From my understanding DCL will run with this format:
3 sv
1 swsh
1 usum
1 Oras
1 VGC
1 filler, can be natdex, usum, or Oras
Tbh I don't see a large need to be Bo8 when the last slot doesn't seem to have an obvious answer. Bo7 is perfectly fine, even if I personally like the dynamics ties introduce.
If Bo8 is mandatory in your guys head, just pick usum it's the most interesting oldgen to watch and play + has a huge playerbase to draw from
I see mention of 3 drafts for 1 slot. While I would love to see this tested, I must say I am not looking forward to having 16 drafts to worry about (Realistically 13 bc VGC omegalul). Dpl has run with 10 drafts for a few seasons now and I already feel like my entire week is dedicated to drafting. From when I wake up to when I go to sleep, there is always discussion happening and people trying to int drafts that must be stopped. Also, I don't foresee all 3 drafts getting major playtime anyways so it's def gonna skew some stats if you decide to start tracking mons/draft stats
I think the only two tiers that make sense are USUM and SS Natdex. Given the negativity surrounding VGC and SS Galardex in general as well as complaints from last DCL, I don't think it would be wise to include an extra tier of either. SS Natdex would be interesting as it was probably played as much as Galar dex was when the tier was current, with little to no representation in team tours after DPL S4. USUM also seems reasonably popular and although biased, I think it is the best balanced metagame of the old gens. I think that ORAS is another viable option but personally would prefer to see USUM and SS Natdex prioritised given ORAS is the oldest metagame, however arbitrary that criteria is. I'm not even going to consider SV low tier or SV Natdex, those are both meme options and making SV essentially 4 slots makes no sense to me.
Ultimately, the tour should be run with consideration of player base preferences and given that USUM seems to be the most popular option, I would lean towards including that IF a bo8 in regular season has already been set.
Nonetheless, two other options I'd like to suggest for this and further seasons of DCL are:
1) Removing VGC completely and having an extra USUM and ORAS slot. Personally, this would be my favoured option but understand that there is an active VGC draft community and the TDs want them to be represented.
2) Making it a bo7 and removing ties. Just removing the extra tier since it honestly doesn't make sense to have an extra tier of any gen. Ties kept standings close last season but are generally unnecessary and would be an extra layer to introduce bo8s in play offs by making the extra gen chosen by the top seed. This would make the regular season standings actually matter and incentivise teams not to take their foot off the gas mid-season. Therefore, top teams would be rewarded for finishing in the top two by choosing their favoured gen, which would be a big advantage. I think this is also a better solution than the current bo8 situation and should be considered.
Ultimately, the tour should be run with consideration of player base preferences and given that USUM seems to be the most popular option, I would lean towards including that IF a bo8 in regular season has already been set.
Nonetheless, two other options I'd like to suggest for this and further seasons of DCL are:
1) Removing VGC completely and having an extra USUM and ORAS slot. Personally, this would be my favoured option but understand that there is an active VGC draft community and the TDs want them to be represented.
2) Making it a bo7 and removing ties. Just removing the extra tier since it honestly doesn't make sense to have an extra tier of any gen. Ties kept standings close last season but are generally unnecessary and would be an extra layer to introduce bo8s in play offs by making the extra gen chosen by the top seed. This would make the regular season standings actually matter and incentivise teams not to take their foot off the gas mid-season. Therefore, top teams would be rewarded for finishing in the top two by choosing their favoured gen, which would be a big advantage. I think this is also a better solution than the current bo8 situation and should be considered.
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The 2 standout options for the last tier to me are definitely USUM and Low Tier.
As other people have said earlier, USUM stands out amongst other tiers due to its dynamic style and vast player base. It's certainly felt for a while in DPL that USUM games have been on average the most entertaining and unpredictable. Another thing that USUM has going for it is the tier with the most draft flexibility due to the abundance of hazard removal combined with the largest dex. As a result, USUM has been the tier with the most versatility among megas drafted (with cheaper Megas such as Sharpedo, Beedrill, Sceptile, etc. increasing in usage over time) which is crucial for the health of any draft Meta as more Megas being viable => a larger range of outcomes for drafts. A common point I keep seeing here is that picking USUM/ORAS for the last slot does not make sense because it is unfair to favor one of the older gens over SS because it is the "most recent new gen". Genuinely asking, why do we care about that when Gen 8 is 5 years old at this point, has proven to be incredibly linear relative to other gens, and is also arguably the most unpopular metagame amongst recent gens? As for USUM vs ORAS, USUM feels like a much better choice than ORAS because as someone who has played way too much ORAS in DPL the tier definitely is getting stale and it also holds a much smaller playerbase than USUM. In my opinion it would be the better decision to prioritize the quality of the tiers in question over arbitrary stipulations such as not wanting a tier in the middle to not have an extra game. I just feel like there is not really much meaning behind the whole "we shouldn't favor one old gen over the other" argument, and once we get past that, I don't see much reason to not add a 2nd USUM slot.
If not USUM (or if VGC is on the chopping block) Low Tier also is a pretty strong option. It has always been pretty positively received in events it's been in such as Clash of Kings. Low Tier generally provides a great balance of being a unique format that serves a clear purpose of giving players a deviant from top-tier mons while also being pretty simple to understand and pick up, as we all know what these mons do, it's just a matter of applying them to the different format. This should allow for teammates to provide ample team support and perhaps gain interest to play it mid-season. It would be much fresher to the player base than Nat Dex or an extra SS slot as those tiers would honestly probably feel like filler if anything. So ye Low Tier good too.
As other people have said earlier, USUM stands out amongst other tiers due to its dynamic style and vast player base. It's certainly felt for a while in DPL that USUM games have been on average the most entertaining and unpredictable. Another thing that USUM has going for it is the tier with the most draft flexibility due to the abundance of hazard removal combined with the largest dex. As a result, USUM has been the tier with the most versatility among megas drafted (with cheaper Megas such as Sharpedo, Beedrill, Sceptile, etc. increasing in usage over time) which is crucial for the health of any draft Meta as more Megas being viable => a larger range of outcomes for drafts. A common point I keep seeing here is that picking USUM/ORAS for the last slot does not make sense because it is unfair to favor one of the older gens over SS because it is the "most recent new gen". Genuinely asking, why do we care about that when Gen 8 is 5 years old at this point, has proven to be incredibly linear relative to other gens, and is also arguably the most unpopular metagame amongst recent gens? As for USUM vs ORAS, USUM feels like a much better choice than ORAS because as someone who has played way too much ORAS in DPL the tier definitely is getting stale and it also holds a much smaller playerbase than USUM. In my opinion it would be the better decision to prioritize the quality of the tiers in question over arbitrary stipulations such as not wanting a tier in the middle to not have an extra game. I just feel like there is not really much meaning behind the whole "we shouldn't favor one old gen over the other" argument, and once we get past that, I don't see much reason to not add a 2nd USUM slot.
If not USUM (or if VGC is on the chopping block) Low Tier also is a pretty strong option. It has always been pretty positively received in events it's been in such as Clash of Kings. Low Tier generally provides a great balance of being a unique format that serves a clear purpose of giving players a deviant from top-tier mons while also being pretty simple to understand and pick up, as we all know what these mons do, it's just a matter of applying them to the different format. This should allow for teammates to provide ample team support and perhaps gain interest to play it mid-season. It would be much fresher to the player base than Nat Dex or an extra SS slot as those tiers would honestly probably feel like filler if anything. So ye Low Tier good too.
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Low Tier: As someone who has captained Clash twice as the "Premiere Low tier team tour" it really was just basically a case of oh we got our 3 standard players now to chuck anyone into LT. This is how most people feel about SwSh being a "throw anyone in tier" so i dont think it will solve the problem. The tierlist from one lt tournement to another is always pretty different for the most part which varies the meta and no one really wants to Specialize in LT from what ive seen anyways
SV Natdex: This is a super meme and uncompetitive format. Tapu koko existing basically makes it a joke. Megas getting moves that they shouldn't like medicham getting FAST AS FUCK with trailblaze and many others. Sure SV Natdex had high signups but leagues all across the community have varying rulesets and some even allowing Z and tera at the same time while others allow cut moves/others do not while every other meta game for the most part has CLEAR objective rule sets played by the community makes it incredibly hard to get the right ruleset for the tournament and shouldnt be taken into account for something trying to be drafts most competitive team tournement.
VGC Sucks that is all
Aint no one tryna consider no meme BW/ADV/DPP so dont even gotta speak on that...
Swsh natdex: This was primarily being run at the time of SwSh meta for the most part and sees no representation atp so could be a fine choice, lowkey usum with boots and new movesets so i am okay with this. (This would also require adding another 2-3 drafts so a bit iffy on this)
USUM: A bit biased but USUM has one of the highest player pools (and skill level) and has some of the biggest diversity in mons drafted as a whole. What other gen u seeing almost a majority of the megas having draft usage. shitters like feraligator salazal hoopa and a plethora more being drafted from time to time. This gen truly is the goat
ORAS: How do people love this tier :sob: All the games are snoozefest of spamming spikes and a scarfer and all the teams are copy pasted from the tournament before but at least this is a better option then the others people want....
Like this post for the objective truth that people need to know and to make DCL great again
SV Natdex: This is a super meme and uncompetitive format. Tapu koko existing basically makes it a joke. Megas getting moves that they shouldn't like medicham getting FAST AS FUCK with trailblaze and many others. Sure SV Natdex had high signups but leagues all across the community have varying rulesets and some even allowing Z and tera at the same time while others allow cut moves/others do not while every other meta game for the most part has CLEAR objective rule sets played by the community makes it incredibly hard to get the right ruleset for the tournament and shouldnt be taken into account for something trying to be drafts most competitive team tournement.
VGC Sucks that is all
Aint no one tryna consider no meme BW/ADV/DPP so dont even gotta speak on that...
Swsh natdex: This was primarily being run at the time of SwSh meta for the most part and sees no representation atp so could be a fine choice, lowkey usum with boots and new movesets so i am okay with this. (This would also require adding another 2-3 drafts so a bit iffy on this)
USUM: A bit biased but USUM has one of the highest player pools (and skill level) and has some of the biggest diversity in mons drafted as a whole. What other gen u seeing almost a majority of the megas having draft usage. shitters like feraligator salazal hoopa and a plethora more being drafted from time to time. This gen truly is the goat
ORAS: How do people love this tier :sob: All the games are snoozefest of spamming spikes and a scarfer and all the teams are copy pasted from the tournament before but at least this is a better option then the others people want....
Like this post for the objective truth that people need to know and to make DCL great again
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Saw a few people mention just making it 7 games a week and I want to +1 that, there's not really a reason it has to be 8 games during the main season. It can always be expanded to 8 in playoffs, with the top seed choosing an extra format (might get awkward with vgc though especially if most teams only have 1 vgc player)
Seeing a lot of theoretical discussion on big format switches like cutting VGC entirely or making it BO7 as well as tiers that weren't initially options like Low Tier. Is this being considered at all or is it a waste of time to talk about stuff that isn't "which of USUM, ORAS, or Natdex should be the last slot" for this tour?
I can’t speak for all the staff, or hosts, but I like to think there are not many things truly off the table. All feedback is good feedback, and backing ourselves into a corner by saying “we aren’t considering these things at all” isn’t productive. The point of asking for community opinions is to give people an opportunity to try and convince us/others that a course of action is best; only entertaining 1 or 2 things is antithetical to that effort.
Likely will be my last post on the subject, but I've been discussing this topic externally to this thread, and I'd agree with Kcric on SS Natdex. If SV Natdex is truly seen by the community as an unviable tier competitively due to it being underdeveloped, support SS Natdex as the final slot. While it isn't the same, being able to bridge the gap as much as possible while SV Natdex is being sorted sounds better to me than isolating the Natdex community entirely. This is also in line with another old gen slot, and if Kcric is correct with the play-rates while it was current gen it should be easily developed enough. I would like the community going into the future to consider allowing SV Natdex into more and get it to develop enough to be at the high standards set here. If there's drastic tiering measures that need to be taken I'd implore community leaders to take a look at this for the continued growth of the draft scene.
Natdex tours happen quite often as I outlined before, even if they aren't at the highest levels, and seeing a large portion of players not recognized for their efforts doesn't quite sit right with me. Draft is a unique environment where if something is too broken, it's as easy as pricing it up or removing it from the board. If there's truly too many things to remove, then I think it's a discussion to be had at that point but as things currently stand I'm unsure if effort has truly been put in from the people discounting it, or if they look at the tier and decide it isn't for them (which is perfectly fine as well fwiw, I just don't agree with using a personal decision to undercut a tier). I don't enjoy playing SV Natdex Draft, but I also would like to give an opportunity to everyone especially communities that show up (specifically pointing to SV Natdex having the 3rd highest entrants this year thus far).
With that being said and all of the discussion over tiers I don't enjoy, I'd like to say that my favorite tier to play, Low Tier, does not deserve the final slot. The entrant numbers just aren't there, so if it came down to it I would rather support an old gen over it. Out of ORAS vs USUM (since those seem to be the two in the running) I would prefer to go with ORAS due to higher entrant numbers.
Ultimately, I see this event, and all others that are being ran here, as opportunities to grow and appreciate the niche activity we all like. Incentivizing entrant numbers is one way to, hopefully, try and bring out more members of the community as a whole, and keep this activity as fun as possible for as long as possible.
Natdex tours happen quite often as I outlined before, even if they aren't at the highest levels, and seeing a large portion of players not recognized for their efforts doesn't quite sit right with me. Draft is a unique environment where if something is too broken, it's as easy as pricing it up or removing it from the board. If there's truly too many things to remove, then I think it's a discussion to be had at that point but as things currently stand I'm unsure if effort has truly been put in from the people discounting it, or if they look at the tier and decide it isn't for them (which is perfectly fine as well fwiw, I just don't agree with using a personal decision to undercut a tier). I don't enjoy playing SV Natdex Draft, but I also would like to give an opportunity to everyone especially communities that show up (specifically pointing to SV Natdex having the 3rd highest entrants this year thus far).
With that being said and all of the discussion over tiers I don't enjoy, I'd like to say that my favorite tier to play, Low Tier, does not deserve the final slot. The entrant numbers just aren't there, so if it came down to it I would rather support an old gen over it. Out of ORAS vs USUM (since those seem to be the two in the running) I would prefer to go with ORAS due to higher entrant numbers.
Ultimately, I see this event, and all others that are being ran here, as opportunities to grow and appreciate the niche activity we all like. Incentivizing entrant numbers is one way to, hopefully, try and bring out more members of the community as a whole, and keep this activity as fun as possible for as long as possible.
SV NatDex makes the most sense to add for multiple reasons:
- It's the next logical metagame to add as it has the sheer popularity behind it.
- Having 2 of a chosen Old Gen then 1 of the other Old Gens makes little sense, alienates the other formats.
- SV National Dex would be good representation for all the generational gimmicks (except Dynamax) in a single format which would inspire unique choices and requires players to adapt.
- The only knock against the metagame is the absolutely insane levels of power creep present. The rules should be expanded upon to mitigate these issues and not be afraid to ban Pokemon deemed unbalanced.
- It's super competitive with solid regulations. If you can apply the usual rules: Ban all cut moves, Glowbro -/> Mega Slowbro etc. You'll find NatDex is incredibly fun and not as bad as most people say it is; SmogDraft hasn't quite stuck the landing with rulings in NatDex and may be what's skewing the current vision.
- Status