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Why would you ever run Refresh over sub? Blocking Glare or twave or toxic from being used in the first place has so much more value than curing a status after it's been inflicted. If you sub on a status move, then you waste your opponent's turn and provide utility for yourself. Refresh at most puts you back into a neutral position from a negative one at the cost of giving your opponent a free turn. Paralysis is a death sentence for Salamence; Facade can't alleviate its speed drop + full para chances while Refresh won't be useful at all in most games and Mence probably gets KOd/damaged into priority range the turn it has to click Refresh regardless. Either way, S0A's original argument of "Substitute is a tool that Zekrom has over Salamence" is flawed and that was what I was trying to address.
What's wrong with this moveset? I genuinely don't see why those four moves are something to condescendingly address the way that you did. The basic gist of the webs teams I make are that Groudon and Kyogre are midgame wallbreakers while 1-2 of the remaining 3 free team slots are late game cleaners/sweepers. I assume you think Rock Polish or SD should be there over Overheat but in my opinion Groudon is too likely to take heavy damage while setting up (resulting in Eruption being weakened) for Rock Polish to be worthwhile on that team.
Why would you ever run Refresh over sub? Blocking Glare or twave or toxic from being used in the first place has so much more value than curing a status after it's been inflicted. If you sub on a status move, then you waste your opponent's turn and provide utility for yourself. Refresh at most puts you back into a neutral position from a negative one at the cost of giving your opponent a free turn. Paralysis is a death sentence for Salamence; Facade can't alleviate its speed drop + full para chances while Refresh won't be useful at all in most games and Mence probably gets KOd/damaged into priority range the turn it has to click Refresh regardless. Either way, S0A's original argument of "Substitute is a tool that Zekrom has over Salamence" is flawed and that was what I was trying to address.
Not running Refresh or Facade basically means you can't switch into Ho-Oh since you have no way of dealing with Burn. If you go Facade/Substitute not only is this somewhat pointless (do you want to take status moves or not?) but this also nukes your longevity, which is partially what makes Mega Salamence so good, that unlike Ultra Necrozma, it's actually pretty tanky thanks to Intimidate and the +40 Defense it gets from Mega Evolving, and unlike Zekrom, it has a usable defensive typing against Primal Groudon; defensive Primal Groudon is also harder to switch into since using Substitute when badly poisoned is a horrible idea. Also do you run Roost or Earthquake as your final slot (assuming this is DDance/Edge/Sub/x)?
Zekrom has the ability to OHKO Ho-Oh and Groudon after a DD at the cost of switching in on less, having fewer setup opportunities, and being OHKOd by the litany of ground attacks in the tier. On webs teams it's a sidegrade, not a must-have, and I don't think that warrants its current place on the VR or even B tier.
It still switches in on and abuses most of the things Mega Salamence does apart from Primal Groudon, which you just said isn't too much of an issue if you OHKO after a boost. Zekrom, again, only needs one boost to do a good enough job in the match so the idea it "doesn't have good setup oppurtunities" isn't that true. You keep mentioning its Ground-type weakness but what about all the Dragon-, Fairy- and even Ice-type moves Mega Salamence has to deal with in conjunction with Stealth Rock? Surely that makes it inconsistent right? Nobody is saying Zekrom is a must-have on Sticky Web teams and I don't think anybody has said that. It's just another option like how Mega Salamence is to hazard stack teams.
Dropping Dragon Claw means you need to lock into Outrage to beat ground types, which is exploitable with a timely tera Steel or Fairy or a switch into Zacian, NDM, or Arceus-Fairy (see replay 1).
This logic still applies to Ultra Necrozma and even Arceus-Ground to an extent with a timely Tera Dark/Flying or a switch into Arceus-Dark, Yveltal, Giratina-O etc etc.
As for the replay... this isn't that bad. You got rid of Extreme Killer (which is great for a Sticky Web team) and you would have been able to beat Zacian-C anyways if you didn't get hit by confusion. Tera Steel Giratina-O didn't do anything to you anyways (since it clicked Defog for some reason), get 2HKO'd by Outrage at that point, and it terastalizing meant it would've lost to Primal Groudon (btw Eruption Primal Groudon is fine on Sticky Web its just that Overheat is a bit wack cuz SD is better). This doesn't prove Zekrom is bad it's just bad luck. All of the replays shown are against HO teams which is Zekrom's worst matchup so it puts Zekrom in a bad light before the game even began. Also why are you using defensive Arceus-Fairy on Sticky Web isn't that a huge momentum sink like what's wrong with Offensive CM or another mon like LO Yveltal?
I specifically said "at team preview". You aren't seeing Ultra Necrozma at team preview; you're seeing Necrozma-Dusk Mane which has at least 5 viable sets that have different roles and counterplay. NDM in against Marshadow can set Trick Room, click Dragon Dance, click Knock Off or Thunder Wave, Ultra Burst and click Photon Geyser, etc. Hedging your bets is a lot more difficult against something with high moveset variety. Against a Zekrom, you know it's going to click one of five moves (counting Devastating Drake), and you can reasonably rule out 2-4 of them on a given turn. Ultra Necrozma is similar after revealing itself, but has the power necessary to justify this downside (alongside keeping a degree of unpredictability with its unrevealed third attacking move).
Spotting Ultra Necrozma from offensive or defensive NDM is really not that hard. Just look at the team. Offensive NDM doesn't fit on PsySpam or other high momentum HO structures meanwhile Ultra Necrozma does. Comparatively, Ultra Necrozma doesn't really fit on Bulky Offense and Balance structures meanwhile NDM does. The moves these two run aren't even that different, the only major difference being that NDM runs Sunsteel Strike and Ultra Necrozma runs Photon Geyser (and ig X-Scissor over Stone Edge sometimes even tho imo that sucks).
Why would you ever run Refresh over sub? Blocking Glare or twave or toxic from being used in the first place has so much more value than curing a status after it's been inflicted. If you sub on a status move, then you waste your opponent's turn and provide utility for yourself. Refresh at most puts you back into a neutral position from a negative one at the cost of giving your opponent a free turn. Paralysis is a death sentence for Salamence; Facade can't alleviate its speed drop + full para chances while Refresh won't be useful at all in most games and Mence probably gets KOd/damaged into priority range the turn it has to click Refresh regardless. Either way, S0A's original argument of "Substitute is a tool that Zekrom has over Salamence" is flawed and that was what I was trying to address.
Sami is right because Salamence doesn't really benefit from sub. The main source of paralysis is going to be from Zygarde which sub doesn't make a difference against. Zygarde would have to be chipped enough that it is in range of +1 Double Edge at which point it probably isn't switching in to begin with. Salamence can sub, but Zygarde is just going to boost with it most of the time, at least on that first turn, to scout for Facade. Even if Salamence runs sub it is just going to be fishing for a crit against a somewhat healthy Zygarde to begin with and the turns you spend subbing are given up by having to Roost more often as Zygarde just boosts alongside you.
Outside of Zygarde the only other somewhat common source of paralysis you'll encounter is going to be from defensive Necrozma-DM which Salamence can easily use as setup fodder with Refresh regardless of whether it runs Thunder Wave or Toxic. Even v Ho-Oh it is quite useful because it means it doesn't just phase Salamence for free. If Salamence has Facade it really wants to switch into Ho-Oh and hope that Sacred Fire burns. It is immensely risky to switch into Ho-Oh without either of these two moves.
Ho-Oh rarely runs Thunder Wave and the Primals do so even less commonly. Zekrom benefits from sub because the immediate threat it poses generally necessitates switching to Primal Groudon. In Salamence's case, Primal Groudon is usually its entry point and it doesn't really want to stay in due to the threat of Earthquake unless it is running Roar. The switch-in to Salamence is often going to Zygarde or Arceus-Dark. Salamence can actually trade with the latter if it is fully healthy since Foul Play doesn't OHKO at +1 and Salamence does 2HKO with +1 Return or neutral Double Edge after Rocks.
Edit: Mence is DD / Return or Double Edge / X / X with the x's being two of Roost, Facade, Refresh or EQ. Generally the third slot will be EQ, but if you're comfortable with your matchup into the steels it is dropable.
What's wrong with this moveset? I genuinely don't see why those four moves are something to condescendingly address the way that you did. The basic gist of the webs teams I make are that Groudon and Kyogre are midgame wallbreakers while 1-2 of the remaining 3 free team slots are late game cleaners/sweepers. I assume you think Rock Polish or SD should be there over Overheat but in my opinion Groudon is too likely to take heavy damage while setting up (resulting in Eruption being weakened) for Rock Polish to be worthwhile on that team.
That is a fair point, but if you're running Eruption Primal Groudon it should nearly always be coming in after Smeargle goes down or for free after something else does. The sub on Salamence was meant to be condescending (rudely so and I regret that), this was more bewilderment as I've never seen this set and was genuinely wondering why you'd run it. Double Fire move is a cool idea and I get it now that you've explained it even if I'm not a huge fan. If anything I think Rock Tomb > Stone Edge. I'm going to guess that this is 252 SpA / 252+ Spe (or at least no attack investment)? The reason I was a bit surprised to see Stone Edge on there was that Rock Tombs increased accuracy and the utility from the speed drop seems generally more useful. Without investment Stone Edge is a coinflip to OHKO Ho-Oh factoring in accuracy and it does enough damage that Ho-Oh is either going to be forced to either tera if it isn't grass, switch out, or be saced. The speed drop also gives Primal Groudon the ability to chuck out an Overheat before it goes down and can let you scout if something like LO Yveltal is running Sucker Punch or Knock which is pretty valuable information if you are playing HO, especially with Zekrom since Yveltal outspeeds it.
That is a fair point, but if you're running Eruption Primal Groudon it should nearly always be coming in after Smeargle goes down or for free after something else does. The sub on Salamence was meant to be condescending (rudely so and I regret that), this was more bewilderment as I've never seen this set and was genuinely wondering why you'd run it. Double Fire move is a cool idea and I get it now that you've explained it even if I'm not a huge fan. If anything I think Rock Tomb > Stone Edge. I'm going to guess that this is 252 SpA / 252+ Spe (or at least no attack investment)? The reason I was a bit surprised to see Stone Edge on there was that Rock Tombs increased accuracy and the utility from the speed drop seems generally more useful.
I invested 196 EVs into speed to hit 265 (1 more than -1 Eternatus) and 108 into attack (which gives a 75% chance of dropping max phys bulk Ho-Oh from full with Stone Edge) with a Rash nature and the rest in special attack. I really value the guaranteed chance (especially on a webs team!) and usually have enough investment to hit it on any non-defensive Groudon I run. I made that team in 3 minutes and didn't play more than 15 games with it so it's definitely not the best I have to offer. My opinion on Zekrom has gone up from using it, but I still think its place in the tier is too small to have it above B-. Especially if I'm reading the room correctly and it's decently likely for webs to fall down a tier on the VR.
It's been months since I tried building or using a webs team and I definitely feel how much harder one is to use without Xerneas. Having a dark resist, setup sweeper, Zygarde check, and decently fast hard-hitting special attacker consolidated into one team slot was invaluable. The closest to matching that description now is Yveltal, who has a significantly weaker STAB button, no way to boost its offenses other than tera and the meme hone claws, is weak to rocks, and isn't guaranteed to beat opposing Yveltal. Alongside that, Xern just felt like a much better dark switch in than Yveltal because it could afford to invest in some bulk due to getting most of the speed it needs from Geomancy (alongside the aforementioned rocks weakness hurting Yveltal).
Xerneas being banned has slowed down the tier while also giving support Yveltal breathing room to exist, making defogging significantly easier against webs teams. I don't know if Shuckle should fall to C+. That feels too harsh to me. Maybe B- was too low for it to begin with and B would have suited it better while Xerneas was around. I also might be massively overrating it as a playstyle in its current and former states.
It's been months since I tried building or using a webs team and I definitely feel how much harder one is to use without Xerneas. Having a dark resist, setup sweeper, Zygarde check, and decently fast hard-hitting special attacker consolidated into one team slot was invaluable.
Eternatus, in my experience, is actually a decent substitute. While it doesn't resist dark, it hits pretty hard, checks Zygarde, threatens all relevant defoggers besides some Arceus with the combination of Dynamax Cannon and Meteor Beam, and after the special attack buff and Tera Dragon, often wins a game in an instant if you run Modest. I can't tell you how many times Eternatus has singlehandedly won me the game.
S-[4] -> S-[2] A[2] ->A+[3] A[4] -> A[2] A-[1] -> A[4] A-[2] -> A[5] A-[3] -> A-[1] B+ -> A-[2] B+ -> A-[3] B -> A-[4] B -> B+ B -> B+ B -> B+ B- -> B B- -> B C+ -> B- B- -> B C+ -> B- C+ -> B- C -> C+ C -> C+ C -> C+ C- -> C+ C- -> C+ D -> C UR -> C-
S-[2]->S-[4] A[5] ->A-[5] A-[4] -> B+ A-[5] -> B+ A-[6] -> B+ B+ -> B- B -> C+ B -> C+ B -> D B- -> C C+ -> C C+ -> C- C+ -> UR C -> D C -> D C -> C- C -> C- C -> UR C -> UR C- -> D C- ->UR C- ->UR
If you have any question, feel free to ask me or Bobsican here or on Discord. Full slate here.
One of the things I enjoy reading whenever a new VR slate is released is voters weighing in on why they voted for certain mons to rise or fall. Now that I'm voting I'll do the same for all 0.5 people that are interested in what I have to say. Talking about the metagame is always fun! I won't go over every mon, but if there is something in particular you'd like to know about feel free to shoot me a message on this thread, privately, or on discord! It probably goes without saying but the views expressed in this post are my own and not representative of any other voters. Lastly, I wrote this on 05/25 after voting and did move some things around before finalizing my slate. I've double checked to make sure that this reflects my final slate, but if I've talked about but some things may have slipped through.
/ Every voter has these as #2/3 and one can easily justify why they voted for one higher than the other. It just depends how one personally weighs different variables. Where I signficantly disagree with some voters is that either should be S+. Although I view Zygarde as slightly better than Eternatus, the opposite is a reasonable viewpoint even if it I disagree. The distinction between S and S+ for me is whether a Pokemon can fit on most teams (S) or whether you need a very good reason not to use it (S+). Neither Zygarde nor Eternatus rise to that level personally. I'd likely abolish S+ before moving either up.
I view Zygarde as slightly better than Eternatus because I value the consistency and essentiality of Zygarde more highly than the splashability of Eternatus. Eternatus can fit on nearly every team, but is often fairly droppable or could be easily replaced with something that fits better. Furthermore, you are often left wishing you had a different set depending on what you load into. These are issues I seldom run into with Zygarde, which is still splashable. Coil is fantastic into most things that arn't stall or psypam. The biggest drawback of the Coil set is how it is complete Gothitelle food, but so are most defensive Eternatus sets.
The only Eternatus set which comes close to Zygarde's level of consistency imo is Meteor Beam + Recover. In a lot of ways it 'solves' the main thing I dislike about Eternatus: its tendancy to feel matchup fishy. Every other set has a lot of matchups where they feel borderline useless into a non insignificant number of archetypes/teams. Specs is great into BO and most balances, but locking into any move v HO is often incredibly punishing and it is middling into stall where it can get things in via double switching, but that always comes with some level of risk and it will eventually bite you. Meteor Beam 4A is a better cleaner and sweeper, but worse as a breaker due to the precision it can require midgame combined with its lack of longevity and is mediocre at best vs stall. Defensive sets are great into HO because Toxic Spikes are kinda broken v a lot of HO structures, but can often feel middling into a lot of balance structures that have the longevity to eventually punish it with the right positioning via some breaker.
Meteor Beam + Recover has a lower ceiling than all of these sets, but a much higher floor. Its coverage is still immensly threatening offensively, even if it does miss Sludge Bomb at times while Recover gives it the longevity to be played much more freely and punishes bulkier teams that struggle to threaten it directly. It isn't going to break through stall by itself, but by the time it does go down something else will probably be able to easily do so. Eternatus is a mon that is better than the sum of its sets. It is a fantastic mon and if someone has it as their #2 I'm not going to argue even if I don't agree.
S-[4] -> S[3] I'm the highest of all voters on Yveltal, though most have voted for Yveltal to rise in some capacity. If it were not for the Meteor Beam + Recover set I'd seriously consider S[2]. LO is one of, if not the best and most consistent breaker which has centralized a signficant portion of the defensive metagame around itself. LO Yveltal pressures many utility Arceus formes to run a Timid nature lest they get shut down. Switching into it is a nightmare for nearly any defensive mon and many offensive ones. Though I'm not a fan of Sucker Punch, it is a great, if risky at times, anti-offence tool.
This vote is mostly on the back of LO sets but defensive and scarf sets merit a mention as well. They are both fantastic though not enough to bump Yveltal up for me. Yveltal is very close to that Eternatus level status where I'll consider some set at some point in the teambuilding process most of the time. Unlike Zygarde and Eternatus, I'm not confident I'd vote Yveltal to S in the next slate. It will likely depend on how prevelent Timid Arceus formes become and how the metagame adapts as a whole. It is a bit closer to Eternatus than Ho-Oh in my eyes at the moment so S it is for now.
S-[2] -> A+[1] Despite voting to drop most HO mons I don't think HO as a whole is much worse than it was a month ago. It is still a very strong playstyle which undoubtedly has many innovations to come. Zacian-C, while still a great mon, is worse in this bulkier metagame. It has a harder time finding easy entry points and doing its thing. Additionally, it had a pretty horrible showing in Trios. For the last month whenever I've considered putting Zacian-C on a team its flaws are more comprable to an A+ mon than S-. I could very easily see myself voting it back to S- in the next slate depending on how the metagame develops. At the same time I considered dropping it to A+[4] this slate.
B+ -> A-[2]RaymondRayquaza has been A- or the top of B+ since Koraidon was banned. I'd like to give Neon a shoutout for mentioning how much potential it had in the NDUbers discord after Koraidon was banned as I'd likely have overlooked it for quite some time otherwise. Band is a ferocious breaker and an scarce source of momentum in the tier while DD/SD sets are pretty good on HO teams. Extreme Speed might be the worst 'good' move in the tier and clicking it always sucks. I want to drop it, but at the same time nothing really stands out as a great replacement. DD sets are very good on HO and a bit underused imo, but don't factor into my vote (B/B+ set imo).
A-[6] -> B If we had ordered rankings for the B ranks this would be the top of B. I thought a lot about whether it should be B+ or B and ultimately building the MMY teams for Megas to High Ladder was the deciding factor. It isn't a bad mon in a vacuum, but I spent a lot of time trying to build MMY teams from scratch that I was unhappy with. Ultimately I ended up just putting it on earlier teams I'd made that it could fit on. It requires too much effort and consideration to build with to vote to B+. The Eternatus matchup is the only thing I like about it relative to other breakers and what prevents it from dropping lower. It isn't a bad mon, but nearly everytime I try and build with it I'm left wondering why I'm using MMY over some other breaker.
B -> B+ One day I'll spell this right on the first time or at least not have to copy and paste it. Alo is very good and very close to A- for me. After the last slate R8 and I were discussing the fish and I was asked why I didn't think it was B+ and I said I just wanted to give it some more time to see how it held up once the meta adapted to its presence. It has held up pretty well and I'll likely vote it to A- on the next slate, but I want to experiment with it a tad more. Side note, Giratina-O + Alo is amazing. If I was being less reserved and voting purely on potential Alo would be A-[3 or 4].
B -> A-[5] I've been hyping up Specs Lunala for a while now and this ranking is solely because of that. Meteor Beam sets are good on Psyspam, but godawful outside of that. The other sets are mediocre, incredibly specific, or just outright bad. I'm not a huge fan of Tera Fairy on Specs because it means the team is likely not defensively sound and doesn't have enough upside to make up for being a tera hog. Tera Ghost Specs is amazing and doesn't really have good switchins. The damage boost from Tera Ghost heavily pressures Yveltal / Arceus-Dark into recovering if they switch in on Moongeist Beam so it can still be clicked relatively freely. The biggest issue I see for Lunala in the future is how popular Timid/Jolly Arceus formes become in the future as it is the most affected by this of the mid speed breakers. If they do become signficantly more common than they are currently it becomes a B+ mon because it becomes more prediction reliant.
B -> A-[1] To get it out of the way: Shadow Tag is uncompetitive and should be banned. It likely won't be even if we suspect it so we play a tier where Gothitelle has to be considered in the builder if you're not running HO. Generally A-/B+ is around the dividing line for mons you're probably ok ignoring in the builder or weak to. Personally, that line in NDUbers is usually around the bottom of A- with Arceus-Water (arguably Lunala) and below.
Even with highly ranked mons, you can afford being a bit weak to them or specific sets and still reasonably play around a lot of them in game, this isn't the case for Gothitelle. Gothitelle isn't able to trap everything and is little more than deadweight v HO, but it doesn't need to in order to have a huge impact in the builder. It often only needs to trap one mon to enable something and can trap two. The targets it is capable of trapping are often essential for a team to function and builders are forced into lose-lose situations.
Making a mon Goth proof often makes it worse against literally almost everything else. Personally I've used Dragon Tail on Primal Groudon which is nearly always inferior to Roar and have lost many games due to misses and loaded Tera Ghost Ho-Oh v R8 purely for Gothitelle when any other tera would have been much better. Blissey is viable solely because it can hold Shed Shell. Necrozma-DM can do the same and still function somewhat well since it isn't staying in to get knocked vs Yveltal anyways and I've never seen Goth + Knock Ferro. It still would rather run RH, Leftovers, or some other item.
Yes, as others always point out when Gothitelle is brought up, it doesn't do much v HO, but it has 5 other teammates to work with. One can argue that a team that gets one mon trapped by Gothitelle is bad and they wouldn't be wrong. However, it is a tough balancing act because Gothitelle is an uncommon mon and these changes are likely going to cost you more games than you would win because Gothitelle shows up. This is a signficantly bigger concern at higher level play in tournament games than ladder. HO is disproportionately represented on ladder relative to its viability. In a tournament game Gothitelle is not only significantly more likely to make an appearance, but the teams it does show up on will be better built to take advantage of its trapping capabilities.
Uncertainties
There were a couple of weeks between when I posted my slate and when the slate and this has given me time to think about my slate. Some of these have resulted in changing my slate in minor ways (i.e. Chien Pao from C+ -> B-) and others a bit more signficantly (i.e. Gothitelle B+ -> A-[1]). One thing I've been unsure of the entirety of the time is the composition of my S/A rank votes. Other than the A- Rank, nothing has really changed too much (intial slate order was ). Below is an ordered list of everything I considered for A- or higher at some point, but separated where I think there is a somewhat noticable gap in viability.
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
On a less serious note, if I were rating mons by personal use Arceus-Ground would be B. I don't know what it is about it, but I rarely feel able to fit it on a team and when I do I struggle to get much value from it. It is an amazing mon, just not in my hands. I may not use it, but I do respect it. One day something will click. It feels closer to A+ than S- though.
Contary to MMY, spending some time building Mega Salamence teams for Megas To HL has improved my opinion on the mon. I don't know exactly where I would have placed it otherwise, but probably lower in A-. It definitely isn't an A ranker at the moment, but it is better than I gave it credit for. Refresh sets on Balance / BO are underexplored/underused imo. I did intially have it at A-[1] but redid my A- ranks. I could see Mega Salamence going back to A in the future, but I could also see it falling to B+ even if I don't think it is likely I'd vote B+ on future slates.
I intially had Ditto in A- but changed it to B+. The mons I consider arguably A- or B+ () could constitute their own subrank. Ultimately I think Ditto can be a bit too inconsistent into some BO / Balance structures at times to put in A- currently.
My views on Zekrom havn't really changed. I wasn't a voter on the last slate so I'm not privy to any conversation surrounding Zekrom at that time, but I was quite surprised to see it remain in B+. It's a decent breaker and ocassional sweeper/ cheese option on HO, but not really anything more than that. I intially had it in B-, but dropped it to C+ after thinking about it a little more. It boiled down to Zekrom is exclusive to HO, which is fine, but HO is the one style where dependency on a Z move actually matters. Dragonium-Z is the only set that matters for the VR imo because the others are C tier cheese. If Zekrom was not reliant on the Z Crystal I'd probably consider it a B or maybe even B+ tier mon. Regardless, Zekrom is probably always going to be a mon that is more viable than its usage would suggest.
Underrated. It solves a lot of the things that HO players moan about. It isn't splashable by any means and is exclusive to HO, but it is pretty good on there. I perfer Substitute or Tera Blast Ground over Scale Shot.
It matches up well into Deoxys-S in the screens mirror and can get a 3rd screen. That is something, but mostly outclassed by Deoxys-S as a Screens lead imo. If it weren't for those two things I'd vote to UR it and considered doing so anyways. Its toolkit was much more valuable when it had Xerneas to abuse screens.
It has B- potential imo. C+ is fine for now but it is a pretty cool antimeta option that flourishes with the right support on fatter balance teams. I'm excited to see what the future has in store for Garganacl.
Last Respects is fundamentally uncompetitve. It is a shitmon that requires no to minimal skill and works often enough. Weakening its checks isn't impossible even if it is still fishy and somewhat inconsistent.
B- always felt a bit high to me but I didn't have the time to properly test it. Going by vibes didn't really feel appropriate.
I've never really understood whatever niche it is supposed to have and think it is D, but similar to Pheromosa going by vibes didn't feel appropriate.
Tested this a little bit and couldn't decide between C or C+ so figured abstaining was the best course of action as I didn't feel strongly either way.
I wasn't sure if it should be C- or D. Gholdengo definitely has a niche. Whether that niche of curbstomping specific fat Ho-Oh structures is enough to be ranked I'm not sure. Figured abstaining was the best course of action.
I can see the potential for C-. Traps most Eternatus sets and is immune to Overheat Primal Groudon. That is something. Similar to Gholdengo I wasn't sure if that is enough for Heatran to be ranked though I can see it fluctuating between C- and D. It seems like a mon someone will bring to a NDPL game and it will either do nothing or completely shut down a team.
Pretty much felt indifferent and had better things to do than test it. If enough voters thought it was worthy of C- that was fine by me.
It has a niche and is at least a usable and fun D rank. I'm not sure if it is enough to be ranked, but like the mons above I don't have a preference either way.
I voted abstain because I wasn't sure if it should be ranked or not and didn't want a D vote potentially standing in the way of it being ranked if my vote ended up being the difference maker. I mind it being ranked but C does feel a bit. At this point it feels a little silly to be skepitcal of R8 since R8 is the shitmon whisperer.
That is a mistake on my end since I did the changes. I thought I changed them to UR rather than D so consider them UR. There isn't anything changing with the D ranks
Now I'll try to explain the most notable changes/votes:
: As the metagame has been adapting a lot to deal with Primal Groudon, some of its sets have been losing viability to a manageable degree, and puts it more on the level of Eternatus, reducing the gap between its spot at S+ and S ranks, more importantly Eternatus has been revolutionalized in the last months with far more optimal sets that let it handle a good portion of the metagame, and can similarly fit any team structure with very minimal support, even making a good core with it, but the gap currently isn't sufficiently low to raise it per-say, it may change in the future, however.
: Not much has really changed for it, but as other stuff has lowered in viability, it kinda led to a chain of spot changes leading to such considerable rise, it does the same stuff as a wallbreaker difficult to wall with utility in priority.
: A ton of set optimization has been done lately, allowing it to perform its duties more easily while not being as easy to revenge kill, allowing it to raise a bit.
: Rayquaza's optimizations in terms of sets have shown their result, and now it's clearly competition for Mega Salamence, having multiple sets and potential utility in priority, pivoting, a free item slot and the capability to Terastallize, main reasons to use Mega Salamence instead are reliable recovery, further setup opportunities with Intimidate, and Dragon Dance ensuring a good matchup against fat and offense teams alike.
: Trapping has been finally explored and it has been found out that indeed, Gothitelle can come into walls such as Ho-Oh and remove them from the game to ease the work for a lot of sweepers, if anyone wants tiering action on Shadow Tag feel free to voice it in this thread now.
: Mega Salamence has been facing competition with Rayquaza as explained before, so it's more difficult to justify these days.
: Psyspam has been developing lately and turns out that enabling an actually usable kind of hyper offense earns it way more of an spot in the metagame, it still does quite little on its own and is exclusive to such structures, so similarly to stall it goes here.
: Surprisingly fat on the physical side, Blood Moon is a nuke even if it's budget Boomburst, and overall it can be difficult to take down for some teams thanks to Calm Mind and Moonlight, yet faces heavy competition with other Ground-types, most notably Primal Groudon, Zygarde, and Arceus-Ground, however, but still has a niche overall.
: Mega Tyranitar is a hazard setter that forces out Ho-Oh, Giratina-O, and hard-checks Yveltal, while also having utility in Knock Off and actual bulk, it faces competition with Mega Diancie at similar roles, and it has a lot of common weaknesses to overwhelm it beyond that.
: Combining those two as they are very similar, but basically face heavy competition with Marshadow, who does the same stuff, has a free item slot, and can Terastallize on top, Mega Mewtwo X just barely lingers on at the moment out of the potential to use it as a sidegrade base Mewtwo with Fighting STAB and not requiring to Terastallize for it.
: The accuracy of all the moves it wants to run suck and so it's rather inconsistent, and it faces competition with Eternatus at its role too, it'd probably be somewhere in A rank otherwise.
: Has four moveslot syndrome, as it can't run all the offensive coverage it wants to properly handle the metagame, so it requires being built around to make it work.
: Requiring a Z-Crystal to work is a major opportunity cost over the more reliable , is a bit too slow and there's a more reliable Dragon Dance sweeper in Mega Salamence.
: Does nothing but set screens, so while reliable, it's difficult to justify over Deoxys-Speed.
: This was a remnant from the Xerneas metagame, and it has been aging like milk as time went, as Volt Switch is blocked by Primal Groudon, and its bulk is worse than Zacian-C's, so it lacks a niche. it can't even be used as Trick Room setter as there's more reliable alternatives such as Cresselia and Hatterene.
: Just a budget Dondozo for a team structure that almost entirely demands Dondozo to work (stall), there's no good reason to keep it ranked.
: Its bulk is lacking even by NDOU standards, very passive, has no place in stall here, and for Magic Bounce utility you'd want to use Mega Diancie instead.
: Mostly outclassed by Ferrothorn, a neutrality to Fire thanks to its ability in Thick Fat, and semi-reliable recovery in Synthesis isn't sufficient to justify over the extra resists and utility Ferrothorn has.
: Tries to be a wallbreaker, can't even OHKO Ho-Oh with Life Orb Rock Slide, also has no bulk to speak of and so even though its typing is conceptually good defensively, its actual defensive utility is not.
: Also a remnant from the Xerneas metagame, it's forced out by way too much of the metagame, and it's way cheaper and adaptable to just Terastallize any other Arceus forme to the Poison-type if required at all.
: Trick Room in itself is niche, and thus being able to set Stealth Rock on Hatterene isn't sufficient to justify it, otherwise we'd have ranked Ogerpon-H long ago as it can do similar stuff and more.
: Its bulk is poor by the standards of the tier, and there's better walls, Spikes setters, and phazers.
: Got banned from NDOU, is outclassed by Necrozma-DM as a bulky sweeper, as Marshadow for a choiced breaker, and even Zamazenta-C if you feel experimental.
: Got unbanned from NDOU, is outclassed by Eternatus and Chien-Pao to be ranked.
I am here to do two things.
1. Grimmsnarl C+ --> B
2. Regieleki UR -->C-
I was already in the process of gathering replays to nominate Regieleki, as I found it was a decent alternative to Grimmsnarl. Come the viability ranking changes, and I find that Grimmsnarl was dropped. I find Grimmsnarl to be the best Screen setter in the tier, so I was surprised by this.
Despite its speed, I find Regieleki much closer to Grimmsnarl than Deoxys-Speed. This is because they share a very important trait:The ability to pivot. While Deoxys-Speed technically also has this option, it needs Eject Pack to do it once, which means it can;t run Light Clay, which is usually not a good trade off for being able to pivot once. I find the ability to pivot very important for a screen setter. Because you usually only have time to set one screen, switching out and into a disadvantageous matchup is very unfortunate, and can lose you a lot of momentum. While both Grimmsnarl and Regieleki can be blocked from switching by Dark types and Ground types respectively, the option is still invaluable. However, this is not the only thing Grimmsnarl has over Deoxys-Speed. First of all, its pivot option makes it even easier to set up. Since it shares Taunt with Deoxys-Speed, this means that Deoxys-Speed has only three things over Grimmsnarl.
1. It has Magic Coat, which can help it block Taunt and reflect hazards. The former hardly ever matters, since you will switch out after turn one, and the latter is not worth risking your screen setter getting KOed, unless the hazard is webs.
2. It can be confused with hazard lead Deoxys-Speed, but this doesn't matter, since that doesn't regularly come up in games.
3. It can Taunt dark types, but this only really matters against Yveltals Defog.
I'm fairly certain that I am missing something, because it seems to me that it's hard to justify Deoxys-Speed over Grimmsnarl, not the other way around. Anyways, now that we have discussed how Grimmsnarl is better than Deoxys-Speed, lets discuss what niche Regieleki has. Its pivot option deals chip damage and isn't blocked by Taunt, but that isn't the main appeal. First of all, if you don't care about setting screens multiple times, you can use Explosion for a truly unlockable pivot option that deals decent damage (not by Ubers standards, obviously.). However, the main appeal is very obvious. Rapid Spin. This lets you not have to worry about wasting a move slot for your other pokemon, and means you don't have to choose between a hazard clearer and a pokemon that would better fit your team, if a hazard clearer isn't convenient for your team. Is this enough to choose it over Grimmsnarl in most cases? No. However, there are definitely quite a few cases where this is desirable.
Anyways, can someone please tell me how I am wrong, because it seems so obvious that Grimmsnarl is the better screen setter. What am I missing?
Replays: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9nationaldexubers-2137573588?p2 https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9nationaldexubers-2137569194 https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9nationaldexubers-2137561003 https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9nationaldexubers-2137531636?p2 https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9nationaldexubers-2133704427 https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9nationaldexubers-2138782502
I'm only speaking for myself and not other voters, but reading Bob's reasoning I'm going to guess that we view Grimmsnarl very similarly. I think in a vacuum the points you bring up are right, though they don't translate as well in game. One of the main advantages Grimmsnarl has over Deoxys-S is that it does have a favourable matchup into Deos-S itself in the screens mirror. Magic Coat v Taunt mindgames are what they are, but Grimmsnarl does generally have that advantage. The other main reason to use Grimmsnarl over Deoxys-S is its pivoting ability to bring in something and enable it to setup more easily via Parting Shot. This also means Grimmsnarl is likely able to set one more screen midgame which Deoxys-S generally isn't going to be able to do.
The ability to pivot is huge, but Dark-types are extremely common. I just took a look at the May 1760+ stats and well...Yveltal / Arceus-Dark have a combined 60% usage. This means that most games Grimmsnarl isn't going to able to pivot out and get in that mon to start setting up and blasting through stuff. Sure Grimmsnarl can annoy these two with Spirit Break, but then it is likely dropping Parting Shot which is one of the main reasons to run it in the first place and this wastes valuable screens turns anyways. Furthermore, Grimmsnarl can't Taunt either of these two and they both very frequently run Taunt themselves so they can easily just spam Taunt as whatever teammate switches in and deny them setup.
Deoxys-S is just generally more consistent as a screen setter. It can't pivot, but its Taunt isn't blanked by Dark-types and they have to weigh whether it is worth it to even attempt to Taunt Deoxys-S in the first place as that does have a sigfnicant opportunity cost. Importantly, Magic Coat also means that at worst both sides are likely to play with Sticky Web up in that matchup. The ability to fit Pyscho Boost also immensely helps against Glimmora as well which means you can potentially avoid a Toxic Spike as well.
To address points # 2/3 unless you know the team or it is incredibly obvious that it is a screens team you probably should assume that Deoxys-S is a hazard stacking lead. This doesn't really change how you approach it. Taken from May 1630+ stats:
+----------------------------------------+
| Moves
| Stealth Rock 93.994%
| Taunt 91.392%
| Spikes 71.971%
| Magic Coat 55.400%
| Psycho Boost 24.625%
| Light Screen 11.874%
| Reflect 11.665%
| Thunder Wave 8.789%
| Knock Off 7.207%
| Ice Beam 3.991%
| Other 19.093%
+----------------------------------------+
I think you really are undervaluing how much being able to Taunt the Dark-types helps. It means that Arceus-Dark can't Wisp your Zacian-C or Taunt whatever other teammate and the opponent is forced into an uncomfortable situtation. Using Zacian-C as an example, it can get a free SD since Foul Play won't OHKO at +3. So you either have a fully healthy Zacian-C at +3 behind a screen because the Arceus-Dark switched out or a low health Zacian-C because they decided to Foul Play calling your SD. In former it can live a hit from the Primal Groudon or Ho-Oh and trade with it, removing something big for some teammate. In the latter it is either OHKOing the Arceus-Dark with Play Rough / CC or forcing a tera which means that your Ultra Necrozma was just signficantly opened up. These sorts of interactions arn't possible with Grimmsnarl. Grimmsnarl is a screener that is good v Deoxys-S, but Deoxys-S is better v almost everything else. FWIW, my vote of Deoxys-S to B+ was entirely based around the hazard stacking sets and I'd rate the screens set somewhere around C+. I'm not particularly high on screens as a whole, but if I were to use them I'd go with Deoxys-S most of the time unless I'm fishing for some Bo1 tournament game.
Regieleki on the other hand has a couple of individual traits over both Grimmsnarl and Deoxys-S, but is far worse than either. I'm not aware of any plans for a mini slate anytime soon given that this was a full one, but even if there was I'd be very surprised if Regieleki recieved a vote above D. Again, in a vacuum, the ability to pivot is great, but Regieleki is almost never going to be able to do that. I brought up earlier how in practise Grimmsnarl is frequently blocked from pivoting, but Regieleki almost always is. Regieleki has no means whatsoever to harm Ground-types outside of booming and Primal Groudon is on most teams that arn't stall or pyspam. A lot of balance and BO teams will run a second in Arceus-Ground or Zygarde and triple ground teams do exist.
Yeah pivoting is invaluable, but when you can't actually pivot in most games it isn't. Sure Rapid Spin is something, but Regieleki doesn't have the bulk, even when assisted by screens to set them and spin. I'd honestly consider Tapu Koko as a screens setter long before using Regieleki. It can at least pivot with U-turn and remove hazards or chose to at least pressure the Ground-types with Toxic.
I'm only speaking for myself and not other voters, but reading Bob's reasoning I'm going to guess that we view Grimmsnarl very similarly. I think in a vacuum the points you bring up are right, though they don't translate as well in game. One of the main advantages Grimmsnarl has over Deoxys-S is that it does have a favourable matchup into Deos-S itself in the screens mirror. Magic Coat v Taunt mindgames are what they are, but Grimmsnarl does generally have that advantage. The other main reason to use Grimmsnarl over Deoxys-S is its pivoting ability to bring in something and enable it to setup more easily via Parting Shot. This also means Grimmsnarl is likely able to set one more screen midgame which Deoxys-S generally isn't going to be able to do.
The ability to pivot is huge, but Dark-types are extremely common. I just took a look at the May 1760+ stats and well...Yveltal / Arceus-Dark have a combined 60% usage. This means that most games Grimmsnarl isn't going to able to pivot out and get in that mon to start setting up and blasting through stuff. Sure Grimmsnarl can annoy these two with Spirit Break, but then it is likely dropping Parting Shot which is one of the main reasons to run it in the first place and this wastes valuable screens turns anyways. Furthermore, Grimmsnarl can't Taunt either of these two and they both very frequently run Taunt themselves so they can easily just spam Taunt as whatever teammate switches in and deny them setup.
Deoxys-S is just generally more consistent as a screen setter. It can't pivot, but its Taunt isn't blanked by Dark-types and they have to weigh whether it is worth it to even attempt to Taunt Deoxys-S in the first place as that does have a sigfnicant opportunity cost. Importantly, Magic Coat also means that at worst both sides are likely to play with Sticky Web up in that matchup. The ability to fit Pyscho Boost also immensely helps against Glimmora as well which means you can potentially avoid a Toxic Spike as well.
To address points # 2/3 unless you know the team or it is incredibly obvious that it is a screens team you probably should assume that Deoxys-S is a hazard stacking lead. This doesn't really change how you approach it. Taken from May 1630+ stats:
+----------------------------------------+
| Moves
| Stealth Rock 93.994%
| Taunt 91.392%
| Spikes 71.971%
| Magic Coat 55.400%
| Psycho Boost 24.625%
| Light Screen 11.874%
| Reflect 11.665%
| Thunder Wave 8.789%
| Knock Off 7.207%
| Ice Beam 3.991%
| Other 19.093%
+----------------------------------------+
I think you really are undervaluing how much being able to Taunt the Dark-types helps. It means that Arceus-Dark can't Wisp your Zacian-C or Taunt whatever other teammate and the opponent is forced into an uncomfortable situtation. Using Zacian-C as an example, it can get a free SD since Foul Play won't OHKO at +3. So you either have a fully healthy Zacian-C at +3 behind a screen because the Arceus-Dark switched out or a low health Zacian-C because they decided to Foul Play calling your SD. In former it can live a hit from the Primal Groudon or Ho-Oh and trade with it, removing something big for some teammate. In the latter it is either OHKOing the Arceus-Dark with Play Rough / CC or forcing a tera which means that your Ultra Necrozma was just signficantly opened up. These sorts of interactions arn't possible with Grimmsnarl. Grimmsnarl is a screener that is good v Deoxys-S, but Deoxys-S is better v almost everything else. FWIW, my vote of Deoxys-S to B+ was entirely based around the hazard stacking sets and I'd rate the screens set somewhere around C+. I'm not particularly high on screens as a whole, but if I were to use them I'd go with Deoxys-S most of the time unless I'm fishing for some Bo1 tournament game.
Regieleki on the other hand has a couple of individual traits over both Grimmsnarl and Deoxys-S, but is far worse than either. I'm not aware of any plans for a mini slate anytime soon given that this was a full one, but even if there was I'd be very surprised if Regieleki recieved a vote above D. Again, in a vacuum, the ability to pivot is great, but Regieleki is almost never going to be able to do that. I brought up earlier how in practise Grimmsnarl is frequently blocked from pivoting, but Regieleki almost always is. Regieleki has no means whatsoever to harm Ground-types outside of booming and Primal Groudon is on most teams that arn't stall or pyspam. A lot of balance and BO teams will run a second in Arceus-Ground or Zygarde and triple ground teams do exist.
Yeah pivoting is invaluable, but when you can't actually pivot in most games it isn't. Sure Rapid Spin is something, but Regieleki doesn't have the bulk, even when assisted by screens to set them and spin. I'd honestly consider Tapu Koko as a screens setter long before using Regieleki. It can at least pivot with U-turn and remove hazards or chose to at least pressure the Ground-types with Toxic.
As always, fantastic post. A lot of the points you made are fantastic, and things that I had not considered. However, there are a few things I take issue with. First of all, I find screens to be fantastic in this metagame. They enable setup sweepers so well.
Second of all, I do find that Regieleki regularly comes in twice in a game, sometimes three times. While it is not the bulkiest thing in the world, the screens it sets up obviously help it live longer. And while the Ground switch is problematic, switching into Precipice Blades with Reflect up isn't really that bad.
I will say that, in my opinion, the most important reason to have hazard control is to handle Sticky Web teams, because while chip damage matters, if webs is never cleared, you often just lose. And while this would be a more niche reason in a different tier, Sticky Web teams are actually pretty decent in this tier. Regieleki is so fast, that it often can clear hazards even with webs up.
While Tapu Koko might be more threatening, it is much slower, and therefore capable of being killed before it sets screens unless it runs sash over Light Clay. Anyways, the fact that you are blocked from pivoting by Ground types is not a mark against Regieleki compared to Deoxys-Speed, because Deoxys-Speed notably can only pivot with Teleport as long as you have Light Clay, which leaves you vulnerable to being killed. In practice, pivot is more useful during the second time you are in, where Groudon might be dead, especially if they switched it in to stop your pivot. And if your opponent leads with Groudon and kills you turn 1, that means you don't give your opponent a turn when switching, which makes it harder for your opponent to stop you. And if you don't want to be blocked by the obvious Ground switch, you can just switch out manually.
Overall, while you make some great points, I still think there is merit to the Regieleki pick, though you definitely made me reconsider whether or not Grimmsnarl is better than Deoxys-Speed.
Anyways, before I end this post, I want to thank you for always being there to criticize me. Your knowledge of the metagame is much greater than mine, and your posts always help me to understand the tier better, and allow me to see the things blocked by my own inexperience, which ultimately makes posts like these better and less stupid. (If this comes off as bitter and sarcastic, know that is not my intent. I am not the best at communicating, so sorry if this sounded like that, I genuinely mean what I said.)
Sorry, I meant to reply to this when it was posted and promptly forgot to. First of all, thank you for the kind words. You don't have to worry about coming across as bitter or condescending, you never are. Even though we obviously see the metagame very differently I've always liked your positive outlook and enthusiasm. Before talking about Regieleki, I just want to say that I'm not going to discuss it beyond this post for the time being as it will likely derail the thread and a half a page discussing Regieleki is a bit much. If you'd like to discuss it further feel free to DM me here or on Discord.
We have pretty differing opinions on the viability of screens in the current metagame. I don't think they're in a great spot at the moment, though they are viable. If I didn't think screens were viable at all I would have voted to UR Grimmsnarl. I also want to clarify I don't think Tapu Koko is viable, but brought it up as a Pokemon that I'd consider for screens before Regieleki despite thinking it is unviable.
Regieleki certainly can set up screens multiple times per game, but it struggles to do so with any semblence of consistency. The scenario where Regieleki is capable of switching into Precipice Blades under Reflect isn't something that should ever really be happening. Even with near maximum investment in bulk Precipice Blades still easily 2HKOes Regieleki through Reflect. There are not really any scenarios where Regieleki is going to set up screens and still have enough HP to surive this. This is also ingoring that it is OHKOed by Overheat.
Bringing up Regieleki's ability to spin is a fair point, but only against Grimmsnarl. Grimmsnarl cannot prevent Shuckle from setting up Sticky Web, but it can for Smeargle. Deoxys-S at a minimum usually ensures that both players are going to be playing with Sticky Web even if it is unable to prevent it consistently. If both sides are playing with Sticky Web present, it isn't a huge problem. Sure Regieleki pivots, but outside of stall and some hyper offence teams every team has at least one Ground-Type meaning that it can't actually pivot and has the same issue as Deoxy-S in having to hard-switch whatever wants to setup into the game.
Even though I brought up Tapu Koko, its Electric Terrain in conjunction with Roost or Taunt does actually significantly annoy stall teams as it can completely disrupt them and its speed tier is good enough as a screens team is going to need to have the capability to not immediately fold to the mons which outspeed it such as Zacian-C and Deoxys-A. Tapu Koko isn't offensively threatening in the slightest, but a set of max speed / max hp (some defensive investment if makes a difference) with Reflect / Light Screen / U-turn / Defog is still functionally going to operate similarly.
Regieleki isn't a mon with zero positive attributes. The primary issue is that those positive attributes don't distinguish it enough to justify a spot on the VR. Perhaps an analgous example is another mon which is unranked, Porgyon 2. Trick Room is a fringe viable playstyle, worse than screens. On paper, Porygon 2 is a decent setter as it isn't going to be knocked out in one hit by nearly anything and can provide momentum with Teleport. It isn't ranked on the VR because it doesn't bring anything to the table that helps address the issues Trick Room has. It is entirely outclassed by Lunala which also can handle LO Yveltal with Tera Fairy if needed. Cresselia has similar issues to Porygon 2 though Mental Herb allows it to set up Trick Room at least once and it pairs very well with Melmetal due to Lunar Dance restoring PP. That is something that TR teams genuinely appreciate and has earned it a spot, albeit C-, on the VR.
Regieleki has yet to demonstate something like this. Despite the positive attributes you've listed (some of which I agree with), it has not demonstrated that these are meaningful enough to merit a spot on the VR. That doesn't mean it is unusable and you certainly can bring Regieleki Screens on the ladder and win. Obviously you disagree with that assessment, but if you want Regieleki to be ranked you'll need to provide some replays showing it distinguishing itself from Deoxys-S and Grimmsnarl as a screens setter.
As an aside, I do think we are a tad too generous in what is considered viable and there are some mons I'd like to see removed whenever we have the next VR update. This extends beyond your Regieleki nomination, but I think you often overly focus on what a Pokemon can do and miss the forest for the trees.
I'm merely voicing my own opinion over this being directly representative of the council, and by extension this isn't an official decision to do either so far, but in any case...
The same can be said to meta-defining threats such as Marshadow, Rayquaza, and Deoxys-A, it's not intended to be a defensive Pokemon, and its offense traits quite compensate for it.
Chien-Pao compensates by having a net 170ish Attack stat thanks to its Sword of Ruin ability, allowing its Icicle Crash to hit as hard as Marshadow's Poltergeist:
252 Atk Choice Band Sword of Ruin Chien-Pao Icicle Crash vs. 248 HP / 204+ Def Ho-Oh: 211-249 (50.8 - 60%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Marshadow Poltergeist vs. 248 HP / 204+ Def Ho-Oh: 211-249 (50.8 - 60%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Add to that having a strong Speed tier above Ultra Necrozma, Eternatus, and Marshadow itself and a unresisted STAB combination, and it's clear it's a surprisingly anti-meta option that can overwhelm all kinds of team structures when it manages to enter the field.
It can't come into the field besides as a revenge killer!
This is a perfectly valid point on paper, as its special bulk is so terrible it can be OHKOed by a lot of stuff, especially after Stealth Rock, but Alomomola getting considerably on the raise lately, combined with Tera Dark mitigating such weakness and allowing Chien-Pao to OHKO some silly stuff such as wallbreaker Primal Kyogre, Eternatus, and Necrozma-DM, its flaws are quite exaggerated overall.
Additionally, its Dark typing allows it to avoid being as easy to revenge kill as one would think, in fact it can afford an EV spread to avoid being OHKOed by Silk Scarf Arceus's Tera Normal Extreme Speed, and by extension stuff like Yveltal's Sucker Punch and Marshadow's Shadow Sneak. It's also worth noting that after Terastallizing, Ultra Necrozma after a Dragon Dance can't OHKO Chien-Pao with any move but Outrage (and if you're running that you deserve a Fairy revenge killing you), so if it's healthy it can hard switch to it as it's immune to Light that Burns the Sky.
It's really a surprisingly optimized wallbreaker that all sorts of team structures can struggle with, especially as it has multiple STAB priority options to overwhelm easily setup sweepers such as Mega Salamence and Ultra Necrozma, as well as the naturally faster Mega Mewtwo Y.
The only reason I'm not proposing it for A or higher is just the fact it struggles a lot with Zacian-Crowned, which I think is better than Chien-Pao as a sweeper, but given it doesn't have to deal with a once per battle ability, Chien-Pao does excel as a wallbreaker to use at any point of a battle.
Overall, Chien-Pao is really underrated, and it's nice to see that the ladder has been noticing its potential lately, also shoutouts to adem for using this heat first.
I agree with all of Bobsican's arguments. The fact that the two best Dark resists in the tier are both slower than Chien-Pao and also that one of them is weak to Ice and boosts the damage of Crunch against itself is kinda diabolical. Icicle Crash's flinch chance means Groudon isn't even a surefire check. It seems consistently useful enough to merit A-, maybe even A or higher in the future as it gets more usage and development. From watching your replays, I'd say the main potential knocks on its viability would be:
a) being rocks weak and needing to tera to remove it
b) competition with Marshadow for a team slot due to their similar roles
c) how much team support it potentially requires to function effectively/how splashable it is on offense and balance teams
I'd like to hear your opinion on each of those issues. Great post.
Do people still run 52 spdef EVs on Ho-Oh? I thought that was only for surviving specific attacks from Xerneas.
I made a Chien-Pao team and really felt its strengths during this battle even though I only used 3 moves with it. After Dondozo went down, the threat of a strong Ice attack from it constantly loomed over my opponent and this was especially felt because they burned their tera on it. The potential to switch in and do at least 70% to anything with CB Ice Spinner or Crunch was present every turn and significantly contributed to my opponent getting worn down/being on the back foot. I also definitely felt its lack of bulk with that uninvested Salt Cure doing 40%. My opinions on Chien-Pao are overall very positive. https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9nationaldexubers-2148291772-vxxw75g3x9b7amdyoy0xaj30r6gmrgapw
I'm merely voicing my own opinion over this being directly representative of the council, and by extension this isn't an official decision to do either so far, but in any case...
I'm proposing Chien-Pao to A-
Why, you may ask?
The same can be said to meta-defining threats such as Marshadow, Rayquaza, and Deoxys-A, it's not intended to be a defensive Pokemon, and its offense traits quite compensate for it.
Chien-Pao compensates by having a net 170ish Attack stat thanks to its Sword of Ruin ability, allowing its Icicle Crash to hit as hard as Marshadow's Poltergeist:
252 Atk Choice Band Sword of Ruin Chien-Pao Icicle Crash vs. 248 HP / 204+ Def Ho-Oh: 211-249 (50.8 - 60%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Marshadow Poltergeist vs. 248 HP / 204+ Def Ho-Oh: 211-249 (50.8 - 60%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Add to that having a strong Speed tier above Ultra Necrozma, Eternatus, and Marshadow itself and a unresisted STAB combination, and it's clear it's a surprisingly anti-meta option that can overwhelm all kinds of team structures when it manages to enter the field.
This is a perfectly valid point on paper, as its special bulk is so terrible it can be OHKOed by a lot of stuff, especially after Stealth Rock, but Alomomola getting considerably on the raise lately, combined with Tera Dark mitigating such weakness and allowing Chien-Pao to OHKO some silly stuff such as wallbreaker Primal Kyogre, Eternatus, and Necrozma-DM, its flaws are quite exaggerated overall.
Additionally, its Dark typing allows it to avoid being as easy to revenge kill as one would think, in fact it can afford an EV spread to avoid being OHKOed by Silk Scarf Arceus's Tera Normal Extreme Speed, and by extension stuff like Yveltal's Sucker Punch and Marshadow's Shadow Sneak. It's also worth noting that after Terastallizing, Ultra Necrozma after a Dragon Dance can't OHKO Chien-Pao with any move but Outrage (and if you're running that you deserve a Fairy revenge killing you), so if it's healthy it can hard switch to it as it's immune to Light that Burns the Sky.
It's really a surprisingly optimized wallbreaker that all sorts of team structures can struggle with, especially as it has multiple STAB priority options to overwhelm easily setup sweepers such as Mega Salamence and Ultra Necrozma, as well as the naturally faster Mega Mewtwo Y.
The only reason I'm not proposing it for A or higher is just the fact it struggles a lot with Zacian-Crowned, which I think is better than Chien-Pao as a sweeper, but given it doesn't have to deal with a once per battle ability, Chien-Pao does excel as a wallbreaker to use at any point of a battle.
Overall, Chien-Pao is really underrated, and it's nice to see that the ladder has been noticing its potential lately, also shoutouts to adem for using this heat first.
Figured I'd make a proper reply rather than a couple lines on discord. I agree that Chien-Pao probably deserves a rise. Where I disagree is that it is all the way up to A-. B, maybe B+ depending on how it does in the open and NDPL if we don't have a slate before then is as high as I think you can reasonably justify it atm.
I do agree with a lot of the points you've brought up, but most of these things do apply to CB Marshadow. There are certainly advantages that Chien-Pao has over Marsh. Outspeeding Eternatus and better matchup into stall and pyspspam if Ice spinner is run are the main ones, though I'm probably forgetting something.
Chien-Pao has a lot of great traits, but it requires so much support that makes A- seem way too high and even B+ a bit of a stretch though I'd consider it. Valentine covered most of the issues I have. It is very reliant on Mola, which should rise to A- imo, or Lando-T to get in safely. The Rocks weakness means it is a bit more tera reliant or forced into it more often than you'd like since it frequently gets chipped down wayy to easily for a momentum heavy playstyle. It is a cool mon, but unless it goes absolutely ham in the Open on a team other than yours or Adem's its lack of self sufficiency makes A- a bit of a pipe dream in my eyes.
Ho-Oh @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Regenerator
Tera Type: Grass
EVs: 248 HP / 204 Def / 56 SpD
Impish Nature
- Sacred Fire
- Defog
- Toxic
- Whirlwind
The 56 SpD evs make +1 Dynamax Cannon 3HKO iirc, but it is pretty much the same. Check the dex page because defensive Pdon's spread changed slightly as well. Neither are going to be things you notice too much on a regular basis.
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I'd like to also discuss, and well consider this a nomination I guess, Mega Venusaur. It was dropped off the VR in the last slate and I think Bob's replays (I havn't paid a ton of attention since I've seen most of them before) show what it can do. I voted C- on the last slate, but C seems appropriate to me and if someone wants they can make an argument for C+. I know Bobsican and S0A0M0I0 definitely agree that it should be ranked. It has some nice role compression in answering Zygarde, Primal Kyogre, and some Primal Groudons in a pinch. It absorbs t-spikes and leech is nice chip in most games. What do y'all think?
I think that much more important calcs result from having less defense: a higher chance for Life Orb Marshadow Rock Tomb to OHKO and the greater investment Primal Groudon needs to OHKO with Stone Edge.
252 Atk Life Orb Technician Marshadow Rock Tomb vs. 248 HP / 204+ Def Ho-Oh: 406-478 (97.8 - 115.1%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO
252 Atk Life Orb Technician Marshadow Rock Tomb vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Ho-Oh: 385-458 (92.5 - 110%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO
0 Atk Groudon-Primal Stone Edge vs. 248 HP / 204+ Def Ho-Oh: 388-460 (93.4 - 110.8%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO
108 Atk Groudon-Primal Stone Edge vs. 248 HP / 204+ Def Ho-Oh: 416-492 (100.2 - 118.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO (minimum investment to guarantee)
0 Atk Groudon-Primal Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Ho-Oh: 372-440 (89.4 - 105.7%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO
180 Atk Groudon-Primal Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Ho-Oh: 416-492 (100 - 118.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO (minimum investment to guarantee)
In return for
+1 252 SpA Eternatus Dynamax Cannon vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Ho-Oh: 181-214 (43.5 - 51.4%) -- 8.2% chance to 2HKO
+1 252 SpA Eternatus Dynamax Cannon vs. 248 HP / 52 SpD Ho-Oh: 177-208 (42.6 - 50.1%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO
This seems like an outdated EV spread that just hasn't been corrected. 248 HP EVs also irks me; 252 results in an even HP stat and thus 1 more HP per use of Recover.
I think that much more important calcs result from having less defense: a higher chance for Life Orb Marshadow Rock Tomb to OHKO and the greater investment Primal Groudon needs to OHKO with Stone Edge.
252 Atk Life Orb Technician Marshadow Rock Tomb vs. 248 HP / 204+ Def Ho-Oh: 406-478 (97.8 - 115.1%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO
252 Atk Life Orb Technician Marshadow Rock Tomb vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Ho-Oh: 385-458 (92.5 - 110%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO
0 Atk Groudon-Primal Stone Edge vs. 248 HP / 204+ Def Ho-Oh: 388-460 (93.4 - 110.8%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO
108 Atk Groudon-Primal Stone Edge vs. 248 HP / 204+ Def Ho-Oh: 416-492 (100.2 - 118.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO (minimum investment to guarantee)
0 Atk Groudon-Primal Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Ho-Oh: 372-440 (89.4 - 105.7%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO
180 Atk Groudon-Primal Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Ho-Oh: 416-492 (100 - 118.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO (minimum investment to guarantee)
In return for
+1 252 SpA Eternatus Dynamax Cannon vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Ho-Oh: 181-214 (43.5 - 51.4%) -- 8.2% chance to 2HKO
+1 252 SpA Eternatus Dynamax Cannon vs. 248 HP / 52 SpD Ho-Oh: 177-208 (42.6 - 50.1%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO
This seems like an outdated EV spread that just hasn't been corrected. 248 HP EVs also irks me; 252 results in an even HP stat and thus 1 more HP per use of Recover.
Those damage odds are still rather high disfavorable damage rolls, it's more viable to focusing on ensuring avoiding certain 2HKOs or OHKOs taken, the current spread does not only reach the before-mentioned Eternatus benchmark.
It's worth noting that the current defensive spread in the dex also avoids a OHKO from +2 Zacian-C's Wild Charge and Choice Band Tera Flying Rayquaza's Dragon Ascent, forcing Zacian-C to pull Tera Electric if it wants to remove Ho-Oh, and easing scouting on what move Rayquaza is locking itself to.
While Tera does mitigate this issue, it's no secret it can still be limiting to have to Terastallize it to raise its longevity, but at the same time the metagame has rather solid hazard control, generally you'd worry more about Sticky Web than Stealth Rock from my experience, and Chien-Pao can play around that anyways as it has multiple priority options.
Marshadow's niche focuses more on being the most consistent offensive Arceus check, as it's immune to Extreme Speed, naturally outspeeds, and can OHKO with STAB Low Kick, and while Technician Shadow Sneak is a potent priority move to dispatch the rising trend of Psyspam, what sets Chien-Pao apart from it is that Marshadow can't switch into the Psychic-types it's intended to check, while Chien-Pao can do so with minimal support, as I've explained before for example regarding Ultra Necrozma. It's also worth noting that Marshadow generally struggles with Zygarde, while Chien-Pao can OHKO it on the switch or lure a Terastallizing from it, which some of the replays I've shown exploit to then ease prediction mid-game and turn Zygarde vulnerable to one of its allies instead.
In practice the main support it requires is a slow pivot (aka, Alomomola or Lando-T), so generally you'd want to use it on balance teams, as for offense it's undesirable to be Choice-locked out of passivity concerns after KOing something, and you'd be better using Zacian-C as it shines way more out of having higher stats in general, and Intrepid Sword post-nerf shining in offensive teams as often it'd prefer to stay on the field until it faints over trying to apply offensive pressure with it multiple times mid-game.
Chien-Pao has a lot of great traits, but it requires so much support that makes A- seem way too high and even B+ a bit of a stretch though I'd consider it. Valentine covered most of the issues I have. It is very reliant on Mola, which should rise to A- imo, or Lando-T to get in safely. The Rocks weakness means it is a bit more tera reliant or forced into it more often than you'd like since it frequently gets chipped down wayy to easily for a momentum heavy playstyle. It is a cool mon, but unless it goes absolutely ham in the Open on a team other than yours or Adem's its lack of self sufficiency makes A- a bit of a pipe dream in my eyes.
TBH I can agree on the lack of capability to use it on many teams a reason to not immediately rank it as A-, something between B+ and B would be more reasonable at the moment if we were to do a VR slate now, but the outcome of the upcoming tournaments will surely speak by themselves.
I'd like to also discuss, and well consider this a nomination I guess, Mega Venusaur. It was dropped off the VR in the last slate and I think Bob's replays (I havn't paid a ton of attention since I've seen most of them before) show what it can do. I voted C- on the last slate, but C seems appropriate to me and if someone wants they can make an argument for C+. I know Bobsican and S0A0M0I0 definitely agree that it should be ranked. It has some nice role compression in answering Zygarde, Primal Kyogre, and some Primal Groudons in a pinch. It absorbs t-spikes and leech is nice chip in most games. What do y'all think?
It also compresses being a check to offensive variants of Eternatus, which is a niche Arceus-Grass and Eternatus can't replicate even leaving at a side the Arceus forme opportunity cost, and CM Arceus formes (especially Water, Ground, and Fairy, which are the most common ones), so IMO it's less of being a inconsistent Pokemon, but rather more a situational team pick for those that require the specific role compression, so anything from B- to B would be worth to vote as it's still more justificable to use than Arceus-Grass IMO.
With NDUbers Open in R3 I wanted to discuss a few mons. The usage stats can be found in the spoiler above. I'd definitely take them with a grain of salt given the sample size and quality of teams. Additionally, not that many people are actually building new teams so take that as you will. I've been building a bit and helping a few people test, build, or both over the last few weeks. These are not proper nominations, but I've been thinking about the viability of some mons and this is a better thread to talk about them than the metagame discussion thread.
S-[1] -> S-[3] or A+[1] Arceus-Ground is always a mon I've always respected despite finding it a bit overrated. It has always been summed up as a jack of all trades master of none. No invidiual Arceus-Ground set really justifies its S-[1] placement, but they're all pretty good and its versatility makes the sum of the parts greater than the individual components. I've always chalked it up as a mon that is good despite my inability to get value out of it.
No one can fully put their bias aside, but when I do my best to do see I really struggle to even see Arceus-Ground as a S- rank mon. In the last slate before submitting my final votes I had it in A+ at times, but figured I was being too biased and decided to vote it to S-[3]. I didn't state my reasoning at the time as I'd recently made a metagame discussion post that laid out some of the issues I'd had with Arceus-Ground and didn't feel it was worth copy-pasting it.
As time has gone by those feelings have solidified to the point where I'm not so sure it is even the best Arceus forme anymore. It is still a fantastic mon of course, but any Arceus forme comes with immense opportunity cost. At this point in time I don't think that being decent and soft checking x threat is generally worth it over using a different Arceus forme which offers more defensively. Everyone is going to have a subjective view on what seperates A+ from S-, but when I look at the mons in both subranks Arceus-Ground fits more firmly into the latter than the former.
Yveltal and Ho-Oh are mons you can just throw on a team without much thought. Maybe you'll tinker later, but but they can fit on most things pretty easily without much thought. This is different from, say, Primal Kyogre where it isn't hard to put on a team, but you'll have to be mindful of its poor matchup into HO. Likewise with Arceus-Dark where which set you opt for heavily influences the rest of the team. When I slap Arceus-Ground on early in the teambuilding process I need to put a lot of thought into exactly what moves and evs I want to run and how that signficantly impacts the teams ends up looking like. Yveltal and Ho-Oh feel nowhere near as constraining to build with.
S-[4] -> A+[4] Went into my views on Zacian-C recently in the metagame discussion thread. To sum it up, it really isn't splashable outside of HO and generally something that is S- needs to be pretty easy to fit on most playstyles. It doesn't have to be all playstyles, but it should be decent on most. On HO it is a S- if not S rank mon. Outside of that though? It really wants 5 moves to fit into 3 slots and you'll want all 5 in most games. Its defensive utility is incredibly limited. It switches into Yveltal, though that has been running Heat Wave more commonly on HO, so it still comes with some risk.
Even though Zacian-C is substantially worse than during the Xerneas metagame, it is still great. A large part of this is that it suffers from its own success, something that applies to Ultra Necrozma as well. Although Zacian-C is worse than it was, it still demands a lot of attention in the builder. A team that instaloses if Zacian-C gets a Swords Dance is most likely a bad team. If you don't run stall, your options for a blanket Zacian-C check start and end at defensive Ho-Oh which still has tera mindgames to play and isn't sufficient Zac-C counterplay by itself. Not every team wants or needs Ho-Oh and even those that do are still going to have backup checks.
If you're not using Ho-Oh you're often relying on a patchwork of soft checks that, at least in my experience, gets the job done well enough to heavily limit Zacian-C's wallbreaking potential. This is the biggest issue I have with Zacian-C when I use it myself. It wants every coverage move and has to play and guess around tera. This is particularly pertinent against Giratina-O which can tera and Wisp or Thunder Wave and render Zacian-C a non threat, same with Zygarde.
Having a wallbreaker that has to play this precisely and nearly ceases to be a wallbreaker if forced out makes it harder to fit on a non-HO team than its S- rank would imply. It is decent speed control in a vacuum, but anything that boosts its speed will outspeed it and most of these mons can OHKO Zacian-C so it requires additional support in that regard. Using Zacian-C in most non end-game scenario is an unpleasant feeling where you're walking a tightrope and wondering if it is even worth sending Zacian-C in to deal with mons it should be dealing with.
The one metagame trend that Zacian-C does like is the increased usage of CM Arceus formes, particularly Arceus-Dark and Arceus-Fairy. This is the primary reason I like it on that team as CM Arceus formes can be annoying at times. It does that job well, but part of the reason I like it is because it doesn't really need to do anymore than that. Despite liking Zacian-C on the team, a S- mon really should be doing more than this. Although it depends how the rest of the open goes and when the next slate is, but currently I'd place Zacian-C below Marshadow.
I don't think Arceus-Dark really needs to rise or drop, maybe one spot, but it should stay in A+. Maybe this is a skill issue, but fitting the defensive sets that have been metagame staples for nearly the entire time NDUbers has existed feel damn near impossible to fit outside of of very specific structures. This is a far cry from how splashable it was during the Xerneas metagame.
Sure there are a lot of different ways to build defensive Arceus-Dark, but they all come with a lot of annoyances in the builder and often results in teams that end up fishing to not see some major threat on the other side of the field. Take the bold sets that were staples of the Xerneas metagame. Running Wisp makes Arceus-Dark complete fodder for LO Yveltal, not ideal for your dark resist given how powerful and common it is. So you switch it to Toxic, well better hope you catch the Yveltal on the switch-in or it'll still shut you down. A well played Yveltal is still going to win long term so you switch it to Timid. Now you have a passable Yveltal check, but Arceus-Dark is significantly more prone to getting overwhelmed physically and now Pokemon such as Double Dance Primal Groudon, SD Ultra Necrozma, Marshadow ect don't have much trouble breaking through you. Oh and Zacian-C is still an issue because you either have to Foul Play on the switch or double as it comes in. On top of all of this, the rise of CM Arceus-Fairy or even just Arceus-Fairy in general isn't exactly great for Arceus-Dark.
All of these problems can be accounted for, but it heavily limits what your team is going to be. You could always pair it with Zygarde, but both are pretty weak to Yveltal and it isn't as though Tera Fairy Zygarde is exactly wonderful v Yveltal and does have some significant drawbacks relative to Tera Water. It works alright, but if you do this, Tera Dark Arceus-Fairy ends up handling most of the Pokemon you'd want to use Arceus-Dark for while not caring much about Sacred Fire. Really the only things that comes to mind are DD Necrozma-DM and MMY which is pretty mediocre at the moment.
So why keep it A+ if I think the defensive sets are A-/B+ level? Calm Mind Arceus-Dark. Arceus-DarkAdem is really damn good right now and the main reason to use Arceus-Dark. Taunt is better, but Refresh is easier to use and can be played more freely. It still checks a lot of the stuff you'd use defensive Arceus-Dark for in the first place. The notable exception is Ekiller which the sort of teams you'd put this set on can handle anyways and Taunt prevents it from setting up. DD Necrozma-DM is a significantly worse matchup, but a significant part of what makes that set so good is blowing up defensive Arceus-Dark so it is a moot point. Judgement is still OHKOing Ultra Necrozma and it isn't as though defensive Arceus-Dark exactly eats X-Scissor anyways.
Refresh is super nice for setting up on Etern which pretty much goobs defensive Arceus-Dark while not really caring much about Ho-Oh. The main issue with Refresh is trading longevity for the inability to prevent your progress from being undone. Though CM Arceus-Dark can go either phys or specially defensive I'm a much bigger fan of SpD. It enables Arceus-Dark to switch into LO Yveltal without having having to recover nearly every time and survives Meteor Beam followed up by Dynamax Cannon so it can set up on Eternatus reasonably safely. Also 332 Speed is a good benchmark to outspeed +1 DD Necrozma-DM. I'm wondering what y'all think about Arceus-Dark at the moment?
A[4] -> A[1] or A+[5] I've been singing its praises for a while and it is so damn good. Defensive sets are so damn good at maintaining hazards and just doing general defensive fairy type stuff. CM sets are great on the right team. Although Arceus-Dark is generally a better CM user, not being able get past Arceus-Fairy is an issue. Arceus-Fairy definitely has its struggleswith some top tier threats such as Primal Groudon, Eternatus and Zacian-C, but these are not overly difficult to address in the teambuilder given that Arceus-Fairy compresses a check to so many things itself. It is just a solid mon. I'm not 100% sure if it is A+, but it is at worst the best or second best A rank mon.
A[3] -> A[5] or A-[1] Neon has been talking about Ultra Necrozma is very feast or famine and I agree. It is a threat that demands considerable attention in the builder and suffers from it. It can get through or at least force Arceus-Dark to Tera with X-scissor, but beyond that... It isn't getting through Marsh or defensive Yveltal and hopes offensive Yveltal is Tera Flying and not running Sucker Punch since getting one wrong means death. I havn't seen any CM sets in a while and the lead rocks set, while decent, doesn't really change much. Ultra Necrozma definitely deserves to drop imo, but how much is the question? Is a few spots lower in A enough or is it inconsistent enough to merit A-? I'm not sure at the moment and would definitely like others to chime in.
A[5] -> A[1 or 2] I voted Giratina-O to A[2] last slate and my opinion hasn't really changed much. Neon and Adem voted it A+ which I did and still do feel is a bit high, but at the same time I don't wholly disagree with it. The biggest issue I'd have voting it A+ on the next slate is that my A+ would be so large that whatever mon is at the top and whatever is at the bottom would feel as though they deserve to be in different subranks. I'm not wholly opposed to it as Giratina-O is fantastic at the moment, although I've been enjoying it significantly more paired with Alo. I'm hoping that the Open convinces other votes that Giratina-O is due for a rise. How have y'all been using Giratina-O and what are your thoughts on it?
A-[2] -> A-[6] or B+Arceus-Water rounded the A ranks last slate and that vote was not a confident one. I hadn't used it in a little while and was placing a bet on it based on vibes. Since then, both attempting to build with it and playing against it, Arceus-Water has really just felt like a B+ mon. It isn't bad or anything, it just requires a fair bit of support, more than a mon in the A ranks should. During the last slate I felt like I was missing something about it and still do so if anyone can let me know what that is I'd appreciate it.
B+ -> A-[3] "If I was being less reserved and voting purely on potential Alo would be A-[3 or 4]." I definitely should have gone with the gut on this one. As of this writing it has won 15/20 games in the Open with 12.2% usage. Arceus-Ground by comparison has been used 15 times with a 40% WR. It goes to show that you should really take usage stats with a grain of salt.
Regardless, Alo is a really good, if weird mon. I'm still not really sure how you'd exactly go against prepping against Alo. You arn't really fighting Alo, but multiple of whatever Alo is supporting. It is utterly unique as yeah Primal Groudon blocks Flip Turn, but it isn't beating it longterm due to Toxic and whatever proper Primal Groudon answer is on the team so it will eventually get to flip turn freely against most non HO teams.
IMO, Alo is one of the more skill intensive mons to both use and play against as the degree to which you can utilize or your opponent can limit it is heavily influenced by how it is played. Sometimes it just needs to get a breaker or revenge killer in safely and other times it wishes and there isn't really anything your opponent can do about it. Even protect is useful for scouting choice-locked mons or wasting a turn of screens or Psychic Terrain. It only uses four moves, but it doesn't really need more than that.
The big thing holding it back from a higher ranking is that Alo can be somewhat restrictive in the builder. Although mixed defences does shrug off some weaker hits such as uninvested Judgment or Dynamax Cannon, Alo crumples to stronger special attackers. This ends up resulting in similarish structures and the need for teammates which can handle them. There is variety to be had with Alo teams, but only so much. This isn't something that phases me too much given how consistent Alo teams are. It is, however, enough to gatekeep Alo from the A ranks.
If you havn't tried it yet, Alo give it a go! It is a really fun mon to use! I definitely would have been eliminated relatively early in the Open without it.
B- -> B When I was watching the replays Bob gave of hyping up Chien Pao and Mega Venusaur Alo impressed me more than either of them and was doing a lot of the heavy lifting. I've given my opinions on Chien Pao above so I'm not going to reiterate those. I'm including it here to say that I'm open to it being B+, but I want to see more Chien Pao teams. Regardless, it is a fun mon to use and you should give it a go if you havn't. Just give it some pivot support.
C+ -> B- Just putting it here to hopefully raise its profile a bit, though it has seen a decent amount of ladder usage. If you like fatter balance teams and havn't given Garganacl a try it is definitely worth it! Its an annoying pile of salt that has Ubers level bulk and can be used either as a rocker or wincon that sneaks up out of nowhere. It is a tera hog, but it does enough with tera that it is a worthwhile investment.
UR ->C- GET DRAPPLED. More seriously, we have Gholdengo ranked and Hydrapple feels around that level of viability. R8 thinks NP has potential and BigBaurens used an AV Hydrapple in the open. Personally, I think it is an interesting mon that might have enough viability to eek out a spot in C-.
That does it for me. I'm keen to hear what y'all think about the viability of these mons or any others in the meta! Is there some mon you think has been killing it and deserves a rise or has been slipping and deserves a drop? The spoiler below contains how I'd vote today on the S/A ranks, but is heavily subject to change based on the rest of the Open and whatever games I play/see after that.
I'm merely voicing my own opinion over this being directly representative of the council, and by extension this isn't an official decision to do either so far, but in any case...
I'm proposing Chien-Pao to A-
Why, you may ask?
The same can be said to meta-defining threats such as Marshadow, Rayquaza, and Deoxys-A, it's not intended to be a defensive Pokemon, and its offense traits quite compensate for it.
Chien-Pao compensates by having a net 170ish Attack stat thanks to its Sword of Ruin ability, allowing its Icicle Crash to hit as hard as Marshadow's Poltergeist:
252 Atk Choice Band Sword of Ruin Chien-Pao Icicle Crash vs. 248 HP / 204+ Def Ho-Oh: 211-249 (50.8 - 60%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Marshadow Poltergeist vs. 248 HP / 204+ Def Ho-Oh: 211-249 (50.8 - 60%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Add to that having a strong Speed tier above Ultra Necrozma, Eternatus, and Marshadow itself and a unresisted STAB combination, and it's clear it's a surprisingly anti-meta option that can overwhelm all kinds of team structures when it manages to enter the field.
This is a perfectly valid point on paper, as its special bulk is so terrible it can be OHKOed by a lot of stuff, especially after Stealth Rock, but Alomomola getting considerably on the raise lately, combined with Tera Dark mitigating such weakness and allowing Chien-Pao to OHKO some silly stuff such as wallbreaker Primal Kyogre, Eternatus, and Necrozma-DM, its flaws are quite exaggerated overall.
Additionally, its Dark typing allows it to avoid being as easy to revenge kill as one would think, in fact it can afford an EV spread to avoid being OHKOed by Silk Scarf Arceus's Tera Normal Extreme Speed, and by extension stuff like Yveltal's Sucker Punch and Marshadow's Shadow Sneak. It's also worth noting that after Terastallizing, Ultra Necrozma after a Dragon Dance can't OHKO Chien-Pao with any move but Outrage (and if you're running that you deserve a Fairy revenge killing you), so if it's healthy it can hard switch to it as it's immune to Light that Burns the Sky.
It's really a surprisingly optimized wallbreaker that all sorts of team structures can struggle with, especially as it has multiple STAB priority options to overwhelm easily setup sweepers such as Mega Salamence and Ultra Necrozma, as well as the naturally faster Mega Mewtwo Y.
The only reason I'm not proposing it for A or higher is just the fact it struggles a lot with Zacian-Crowned, which I think is better than Chien-Pao as a sweeper, but given it doesn't have to deal with a once per battle ability, Chien-Pao does excel as a wallbreaker to use at any point of a battle.
Overall, Chien-Pao is really underrated, and it's nice to see that the ladder has been noticing its potential lately, also shoutouts to adem for using this heat first.
As the victim of the stall user in your first replay, I 100% agree with your opinion on Chien-pao. I myself tried some Chien-pao teams recently and it proved to be very powerful. It's easy to name some type combinations resist both its stabs, but pokemons with such typing are not common in this tier.
I also want to argue for regular Mewtwo. For me it's the best M2 among the three. Its capability of tera fairy allows it to beat M2's all-time nightmare Yveltal, and it has a good chance to OHKO standard Ho-oh with +2 LO Psystrike, which MM2Y could never do (unless modest, but M2 probably won't have the luxury to run modest in this meta). Its +2 tera blast fairy also has a very good chance to OHKO regular tera water physically defensive Z50, while MM2Y could do nothing if Zygarde chooses to tera. Regular M2's +2 earth power has some chance to OHKO Ultra-Necrozma without bulk investment (although usually DD version would have some bulk), so in some cases, it doesn't have to guess whether the opposing dusk-mane would choose to ultra-burst or not. Yes MM2Y is faster, but it's still slower than Zacian, and being faster than Chian-pao means nothing if you're so easily destroyed by sucker punch. Sure tera fairy is an opportunity cost, but regular M2 with LO is one of THE BEST stallbreaker in this tier (though it still has to choose between fire and ground coverage), its value is worth the input. The standard stall I used in the replay could be easily destroyed by tera fairy M2, while MM2Y would struggle against Ho-oh, Giratina, and Dondozo. So I don't understand why MM2Y could be that high and regular M2 could be that low.
I also want to argue for regular Mewtwo. For me it's the best M2 among the three. Its capability of tera fairy allows it to beat M2's all-time nightmare Yveltal, and it has a good chance to OHKO standard Ho-oh with +2 LO Psystrike, which MM2Y could never do (unless modest, but M2 probably won't have the luxury to run modest in this meta). Its +2 tera blast fairy also has a very good chance to OHKO regular tera water physically defensive Z50, while MM2Y could do nothing if Zygarde chooses to tera. Regular M2's +2 earth power has some chance to OHKO Ultra-Necrozma without bulk investment (although usually DD version would have some bulk), so in some cases, it doesn't have to guess whether the opposing dusk-mane would choose to ultra-burst or not. Yes MM2Y is faster, but it's still slower than Zacian, and being faster than Chian-pao means nothing if you're so easily destroyed by sucker punch. Sure tera fairy is an opportunity cost, but regular M2 with LO is one of THE BEST stallbreaker in this tier (though it still has to choose between fire and ground coverage), its value is worth the input. The standard stall I used in the replay could be easily destroyed by tera fairy M2, while MM2Y would struggle against Ho-oh, Giratina, and Dondozo. So I don't understand why MM2Y could be that high and regular M2 could be that low.
Mewtwo should be ranked to some degree, because calling it completely unviable is a bit of a stretch, even when comparing to Mega Mewtwo Y. A good example of this is StallTwo, which was originally nominated in this post here, since it was used on the Mega Tyranitar Stall Team (ατομος). If you don't already know, Mewtwo is a good answer to Glimmora, Ultra Necrozma, Deoxys-A and Mega Mewtwo Y, which are all common things that Stall as a whole doesn't like dealing with. It differentiates itself from Arceus-Dark by actually being able to threaten Glimmora specifically with Psystrike, while still having above average speed for unboosted Ultra Necrozma, which outspeeds Arceus-Dark, especially making Swords Dance sets scarier. I recommend reading the nomination post I linked for more detail, as well as the RMT for the Stall, since I haven't used this set or team myself, but I've definitely played against it, and it's Mewtwo on this team is far from unviable.
As for the post I quoted, Life Orb Mewtwo shifts this dynamic entirely, which gives Mewtwo some nice set versatility compared to other C Tier mons in the tier. I do agree it is very good at wallbreaking, and it does do a good job at forcing Tera from the opposing side, such as Tera Steel Giratina-O. Additionally, it can beat Calm Mind Arceus-Dark and Calm Mind Tera Dark Arceus-Fairy, two mons that Mega Mewtwo Y ordinally hates fighting against, especially if it lacks Focus Blast. Finally, Life Orb Mewtwo is stronger than Mega Mewtwo Y, and this can be pretty good into Pokemon like Primal Groudon, defensive Necrozma-DM and support Arceus formes, such having significantly higher odds of OHKOing defensive Necrozma-DM with boosted Fire Blast.
But I also disagree with the idea that its BETTER than Mega Mewtwo Y, since there are some flaws to this set. Firstly, the opportunity cost for this set is massive, especially for the Hyper Offense teams you'd want to build this around, and even compared to Tera Ground Zacian-C, Mewtwo's complete lack of defensive utility without the investment of StallTwo really handicaps what it can setup on, with the former still being able to beat Yveltal and Chien Pao without Tera. It really handicaps Mewtwo's teammates, and repeated use of this set can make it easy to predict and punish. The second thing is the speed. 140 Speed is better than 130 Speed. Going from speed-tying with offensive Eternatus, which can be very problematic if you've already used Tera Fairy against Sludge Bomb variants, to outspeeding it completely, is extremely good for Mega Mewtwo Y. Outspeeding Flutter Mane is also a benefit, since Booster Energy is a bad set, and the only worthwhile Flutter Mane set I've seen uses Life Orb instead, so Mega Mewtwo Y would be able to outspeed and OHKO it. As for Chien Pao, not all Chien Pao run Sucker Punch, since they may want Sacred Sword to hit Zacian-C and Arceus-Dark better, so Mega Mewtwo Y can live that (beign 3HKOed) and easily revenge-kill. Meanwhile, depending on how long it's been in the game for, Life Orb Mewtwo could struggle more due to that Life Orb recoil, and Tera Fairy doesn't exactly help with Ice Shard - should be noted that Chien Pao can very easily revenge-kill Life Orb Mewtwo compared to Mega Mewtwo Y due to it having to deal with Sucker Punch mindgames against the latter, but it can just use Icicle Crash and remove the former much more easily. Lastly, sure, Mega Mewtwo Y may technically be weaker than Life Orb Mewtwo, but that still doesn't mean it's weak. A lot of the situations they'd both be in, they would still deal lots of damage, so implying this is a straight upgrade because of it, is a bit misleading in my opinion, since they're both super powerful:
+2 204 SpA Mewtwo-Mega-Y Psystrike vs. 248 HP / 204+ Def Ho-Oh: 348-411 (83.8 - 99%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Tera Fairy Mewtwo Psystrike vs. 248 HP / 204+ Def Ho-Oh: 387-458 (93.2 - 110.3%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO
They both effectively OHKO after very slight chip, basically in the mid-game where Mewtwo is best regardless.
+2 204 SpA Mewtwo-Mega-Y Ice Beam vs. 248 HP / 100 SpD Giratina-Origin: 470-554 (93.4 - 110.1%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Tera Fairy Mewtwo Tera Blast (80 BP) vs. 248 HP / 100 SpD Giratina-Origin: 697-821 (138.5 - 163.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
They both OHKO.
+2 204 SpA Mewtwo-Mega-Y Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Giratina: 442-522 (87.6 - 103.5%) -- 25% chance to OHKO
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Tera Fairy Mewtwo Tera Blast (80 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Giratina: 658-775 (130.5 - 153.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
A bit harder for the former, but they still OHKO.
Before Transforming
+2 204 SpA Mewtwo-Mega-Y Focus Blast vs. 24 HP / 0 SpD Necrozma-Dusk-Mane: 322-379 (94.4 - 111.1%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Tera Fairy Mewtwo Earth Power vs. 24 HP / 0 SpD Prism Armor Necrozma-Dusk-Mane: 404-476 (118.4 - 139.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
They both OHKO, with the former using Focus Blast of all things.
+2 204 SpA Mewtwo-Mega-Y Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 184+ SpD Prism Armor Necrozma-Dusk-Mane: 340-402 (85.4 - 101%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Tera Fairy Mewtwo Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 184+ SpD Prism Armor Necrozma-Dusk-Mane: 310-367 (77.8 - 92.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Mega Mewtwo Y is better, especially since it's not prone to being killed after by Sunsteel Strike, again, assuming Life Orb Mewtwo has Terastalized, which it probably has. I know I said it OHKOes with Fire Blast, but this means you struggle against Primal Groudon.
For the record, I'm open to voting Mewtwo C-. I agree it is better than MMX because that mon is fringe viable on a good day. I'm glad you've had success with it, but I'm unsure why you think it is better than MMY.
Yes MM2Y is faster, but it's still slower than Zacian, and being faster than Chian-pao means nothing if you're so easily destroyed by sucker punch. Sure tera fairy is an opportunity cost, but regular M2 with LO is one of THE BEST stallbreaker in this tier (though it still has to choose between fire and ground coverage), its value is worth the input. The standard stall I used in the replay could be easily destroyed by tera fairy M2, while MM2Y would struggle against Ho-oh, Giratina, and Dondozo.
As Sami mentioned, I think you're handwaving the opportunity cost. Sure Mewtwo can be a demon, but it requires a Nasty Plot and tera to do so. The ability to stuff Yveltal sure is nice, but that does come at the cost of tera. Tera Fairy does help v Sucker Punch Yveltal which HO teams do have trouble with, but it also doesn't help much or at all with other things such as Shadow Sneak, Extreme Speed, or Zacian-C.
Being faster than Chien-Pao is nice, but Sucker Punch mindgames go both ways and locking into it gives free setup for the Arceus forme. I'm yet to see Chien-Pao + Marshadow so using Nasty Plot to scout Sucker Punch isn't a problem when it results in Arceus, Arceus-Ground, Zacian-C, or something else getting free setup if you're wrong. If you're right you get a free +3. At least it is an option.
The real benefit of the speed imo is outspeeding offensive Eternatus and that is honestly the only thing I really like about MMY as an offensive mon. I'm not really a fan of Ice Beam on MMY given that Yveltal can goob it with Sucker Punch anyways. NP / Fire Blast / Focus Blast / Psystike is decent enough into stall.
Its capability of tera fairy allows it to beat M2's all-time nightmare Yveltal, and it has a good chance to OHKO standard Ho-oh with +2 LO Psystrike, which MM2Y could never do (unless modest, but M2 probably won't have the luxury to run modest in this meta). Its +2 tera blast fairy also has a very good chance to OHKO regular tera water physically defensive Z50, while MM2Y could do nothing if Zygarde chooses to tera. Regular M2's +2 earth power has some chance to OHKO Ultra-Necrozma without bulk investment (although usually DD version would have some bulk), so in some cases, it doesn't have to guess whether the opposing dusk-mane would choose to ultra-burst or not.
Beating Yveltal on HO is certainly valuable, but you can use MMY off of HO and that will certainly have solid LO Yveltal counterplay. I don't find the Zygarde calc as meaningful given that +2 Focus Blast is the same roll, doesn't require tera, and either OHKOes or forces Arceus-Dark to tera which can be beneficial for teammates.
I don't think the Necrozma-DM / Ultra Necrozma calcs mean much. V DD Necrozma-DM MMY does the same thing with Fire Blast (100% min). For both formes it is a gamble as Necrozma-DM can Ultra Burst and neither setup safely v any Necrozma-DM. If anything I'd point towards the Primal Groudon matchup.
It is more of a bigger picture thing. Mewtwo is only going to fit on HO to begin with. On top of this it requires tera to work properly. This isn't a dealbreaker, especially for a low rank mon, but it does gatekeep it. Even after tera it still gets nuked by the biggest threats to HO Marshadow, Arceus, Zacian-C and Ditto. That is a lot of issues for a mon that is wholly dependent on tera to function. As such, a team with Mewtwo ends up with a lot of holes that are hard to overlook.
MMY does have a lot of the same issues Mewtwo has. However, the mega slot is free for most teams so that is not an issue in the same way that tera is. That can't be understated. MMY has huge issues with 4MSS, but actually figuring out whether it is Ice Beam or Focus Blast can be annoying. It is still a decent, if flawed breaker that isn't impossible to fit outside of HO if you want as Zygarde + an Arceus forme that handles Yveltal is very splashable.
I don't think MMY is a great mon and next slate will probably vote for it to be C+. I'll vote Mewtwo or MMX C- or D. I think the VR is a bit bloated at the bottom and could use some pruning. If I vote for Gholdengo to be ranked I'll probably vote Mewtwo C-. Otherwise I'll probably vote D.
Mewtwo should be ranked to some degree, because calling it completely unviable is a bit of a stretch, even when comparing to Mega Mewtwo Y. A good example of this is StallTwo, which was originally nominated in this post here, since it was used on the Mega Tyranitar Stall Team (ατομος). If you don't already know, Mewtwo is a good answer to Glimmora, Ultra Necrozma, Deoxys-A and Mega Mewtwo Y, which are all common things that Stall as a whole doesn't like dealing with. It differentiates itself from Arceus-Dark by actually being able to threaten Glimmora specifically with Psystrike, while still having above average speed for unboosted Ultra Necrozma, which outspeeds Arceus-Dark, especially making Swords Dance sets scarier. I recommend reading the nomination post I linked for more detail, as well as the RMT for the Stall, since I haven't used this set or team myself, but I've definitely played against it, and it's Mewtwo on this team is far from unviable.
As I've mentioned above, C- is fine. Maybe even C, but that really seems like a bit of a stretch. I don't think NP TB Mewtwo or Stall2 are really a differentiating factor given how niche they both are. Both sets are C-/D+ imo as they're more along the lines of usable and probably viable rather than having a distinct niche. I guess I'd probably use NP Mewtwo before Flutter Mane, but I don't exactly have a high opinion on that and I'm not really sure what else is comprable.
Mewtwo should be ranked to some degree, because calling it completely unviable is a bit of a stretch, even when comparing to Mega Mewtwo Y. A good example of this is StallTwo, which was originally nominated in this post here, since it was used on the Mega Tyranitar Stall Team (ατομος). If you don't already know, Mewtwo is a good answer to Glimmora, Ultra Necrozma, Deoxys-A and Mega Mewtwo Y, which are all common things that Stall as a whole doesn't like dealing with. It differentiates itself from Arceus-Dark by actually being able to threaten Glimmora specifically with Psystrike, while still having above average speed for unboosted Ultra Necrozma, which outspeeds Arceus-Dark, especially making Swords Dance sets scarier. I recommend reading the nomination post I linked for more detail, as well as the RMT for the Stall, since I haven't used this set or team myself, but I've definitely played against it, and it's Mewtwo on this team is far from unviable.
As for the post I quoted, Life Orb Mewtwo shifts this dynamic entirely, which gives Mewtwo some nice set versatility compared to other C Tier mons in the tier. I do agree it is very good at wallbreaking, and it does do a good job at forcing Tera from the opposing side, such as Tera Steel Giratina-O. Additionally, it can beat Calm Mind Arceus-Dark and Calm Mind Tera Dark Arceus-Fairy, two mons that Mega Mewtwo Y ordinally hates fighting against, especially if it lacks Focus Blast. Finally, Life Orb Mewtwo is stronger than Mega Mewtwo Y, and this can be pretty good into Pokemon like Primal Groudon, defensive Necrozma-DM and support Arceus formes, such having significantly higher odds of OHKOing defensive Necrozma-DM with boosted Fire Blast.
But I also disagree with the idea that its BETTER than Mega Mewtwo Y, since there are some flaws to this set. Firstly, the opportunity cost for this set is massive, especially for the Hyper Offense teams you'd want to build this around, and even compared to Tera Ground Zacian-C, Mewtwo's complete lack of defensive utility without the investment of StallTwo really handicaps what it can setup on, with the former still being able to beat Yveltal and Chien Pao without Tera. It really handicaps Mewtwo's teammates, and repeated use of this set can make it easy to predict and punish. The second thing is the speed. 140 Speed is better than 130 Speed. Going from speed-tying with offensive Eternatus, which can be very problematic if you've already used Tera Fairy against Sludge Bomb variants, to outspeeding it completely, is extremely good for Mega Mewtwo Y. Outspeeding Flutter Mane is also a benefit, since Booster Energy is a bad set, and the only worthwhile Flutter Mane set I've seen uses Life Orb instead, so Mega Mewtwo Y would be able to outspeed and OHKO it. As for Chien Pao, not all Chien Pao run Sucker Punch, since they may want Sacred Sword to hit Zacian-C and Arceus-Dark better, so Mega Mewtwo Y can live that (beign 3HKOed) and easily revenge-kill. Meanwhile, depending on how long it's been in the game for, Life Orb Mewtwo could struggle more due to that Life Orb recoil, and Tera Fairy doesn't exactly help with Ice Shard - should be noted that Chien Pao can very easily revenge-kill Life Orb Mewtwo compared to Mega Mewtwo Y due to it having to deal with Sucker Punch mindgames against the latter, but it can just use Icicle Crash and remove the former much more easily. Lastly, sure, Mega Mewtwo Y may technically be weaker than Life Orb Mewtwo, but that still doesn't mean it's weak. A lot of the situations they'd both be in, they would still deal lots of damage, so implying this is a straight upgrade because of it, is a bit misleading in my opinion, since they're both super powerful:
+2 204 SpA Mewtwo-Mega-Y Psystrike vs. 248 HP / 204+ Def Ho-Oh: 348-411 (83.8 - 99%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Tera Fairy Mewtwo Psystrike vs. 248 HP / 204+ Def Ho-Oh: 387-458 (93.2 - 110.3%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO
They both effectively OHKO after very slight chip, basically in the mid-game where Mewtwo is best regardless.
+2 204 SpA Mewtwo-Mega-Y Ice Beam vs. 248 HP / 100 SpD Giratina-Origin: 470-554 (93.4 - 110.1%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Tera Fairy Mewtwo Tera Blast (80 BP) vs. 248 HP / 100 SpD Giratina-Origin: 697-821 (138.5 - 163.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
They both OHKO.
+2 204 SpA Mewtwo-Mega-Y Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Giratina: 442-522 (87.6 - 103.5%) -- 25% chance to OHKO
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Tera Fairy Mewtwo Tera Blast (80 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Giratina: 658-775 (130.5 - 153.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
A bit harder for the former, but they still OHKO.
Before Transforming
+2 204 SpA Mewtwo-Mega-Y Focus Blast vs. 24 HP / 0 SpD Necrozma-Dusk-Mane: 322-379 (94.4 - 111.1%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Tera Fairy Mewtwo Earth Power vs. 24 HP / 0 SpD Prism Armor Necrozma-Dusk-Mane: 404-476 (118.4 - 139.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
They both OHKO, with the former using Focus Blast of all things.
+2 204 SpA Mewtwo-Mega-Y Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 184+ SpD Prism Armor Necrozma-Dusk-Mane: 340-402 (85.4 - 101%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Tera Fairy Mewtwo Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 184+ SpD Prism Armor Necrozma-Dusk-Mane: 310-367 (77.8 - 92.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Mega Mewtwo Y is better, especially since it's not prone to being killed after by Sunsteel Strike, again, assuming Life Orb Mewtwo has Terastalized, which it probably has. I know I said it OHKOes with Fire Blast, but this means you struggle against Primal Groudon.
First of all, I disagree with the opinion that M2 has to be in HO teams. You could also put it into a balance/semi-stall team and its only task is breaking through the opponent's defense and grabbing KOs. You could even use wish and heal belI/aromatherapy to support it, just like what Bobsican did in his Chien-pao team. I have some such teams and they're effective. Also, you only need to tera when facing certain opponents. Bringing regular M2 doesn't mean that you'll always give it tera in the battle.
Second, if you bring M2, you won't expect it to provide defensive utility. You want it to break through. For this task regular M2 clearly outplays MM2Y. MM2Y is just bad: not that strong, no flexibility, extremely weak on the physical side. You could give it 88 defense EV and it's still much frailer on this side than regular M2, not to mention that its power becomes even weaker in this set. Regular M2 may die from recoil, but that's much better than being OHKOed. You could disagree with my opinion on regular M2, but MM2Y is not worth a B+.
Third, coverage. Yes, regular M2 needs to pick between fire and ground, but that's its only concern. MM2Y has four important coverage moves (fire, ice, fight, ground) and it could only choose two. It means whatever they choose, tera fairy M2 will always miss one important coverage move in the battle, while MM2Y will miss two. Someone says that focus blast is as powerful as tera fairy. Well, if you really trust that move...
Fourth, matchups. Compared to MM2Y, optional tera fairy M2 has obvious MU advantages over top pokemons such as Yveltal, Marshadow, Ho-oh, Zygarde, and its MU against Groudon, Dusk Mane, Zacian is also arguably better. Flutter Mane is rare, and Chien-Pao is not the most common pokemon either. Eternatus is the only MU against top tier pokemon which MM2Y is clearly better, but Eternatus has natural disadvantage against any type of M2 and may not dare to risk the speed tie with regular M2. Also, it doesn't know the M2's variant before it mega evolves or reveals LO. Defensive Eternatus usually won't run 394 speed, while many Meteor beam variants run recover instead of sludge bomb. All things considered, when facing Eternatus, MM2Y's advantage over regular M2 is not that significant.
Overall, my opinion doesn't change: regular M2 with the potential to tera fairy is better than MM2Y. If you ask me, regular M2 is C+ while MM2Y is C-.
Recently, I met several tera dark chansey in high ladder stall teams, and I'm sure when they made that decision, they were not considering M2's VR in this forum. Their only concern was that it's a nightmare, and it's the same for me because I also used stall a lot on the top ladder and I knew who beat me (though I still use tera grass because Kyogre is more common).
Finally, Gholdengo is viable and should be ranked in this tier, but that's another topic.
I have many Mewtwo and Gholdengo's replays against ArcFairy, Xu9, Bobsican, and Bodden town, but that's too many different accounts and teams... I don't want to show all of them.
S-[4] -> S-[2]
A[2] ->A+[3]
A[4] -> A[2]
A-[1] -> A[4]
A-[2] -> A[5]
A-[3] -> A-[1]
B+ -> A-[2]
B+ -> A-[3]
B -> A-[4]
B -> B+
B -> B+
B -> B+
B- -> B
B- -> B
C+ -> B-
B- -> B
C+ -> B-
C+ -> B-
C -> C+
C -> C+
C -> C+
C- -> C+
C- -> C+
D -> C
UR -> C-
S-[2]->S-[4]
A[5] ->A-[5]
A-[4] -> B+
A-[5] -> B+
A-[6] -> B+
B+ -> B-
B -> C+
B -> C+
B -> D
B- -> C
C+ -> C
C+ -> C-
C+ -> UR
C -> D
C -> D
C -> C-
C -> C-
C -> UR
C -> UR
C- -> D
C- ->UR
C- ->UR
/
Every voter has these as #2/3 and one can easily justify why they voted for one higher than the other. It just depends how one personally weighs different variables. Where I signficantly disagree with some voters is that either should be S+. Although I view Zygarde as slightly better than Eternatus, the opposite is a reasonable viewpoint even if it I disagree. The distinction between S and S+ for me is whether a Pokemon can fit on most teams (S) or whether you need a very good reason not to use it (S+). Neither Zygarde nor Eternatus rise to that level personally. I'd likely abolish S+ before moving either up.
Tested this a little bit and couldn't decide between C or C+ so figured abstaining was the best course of action as I didn't feel strongly either way.
I wasn't sure if it should be C- or D. Gholdengo definitely has a niche. Whether that niche of curbstomping specific fat Ho-Oh structures is enough to be ranked I'm not sure. Figured abstaining was the best course of action.
I can see the potential for C-. Traps most Eternatus sets and is immune to Overheat Primal Groudon. That is something. Similar to Gholdengo I wasn't sure if that is enough for Heatran to be ranked though I can see it fluctuating between C- and D. It seems like a mon someone will bring to a NDPL game and it will either do nothing or completely shut down a team.
Pretty much felt indifferent and had better things to do than test it. If enough voters thought it was worthy of C- that was fine by me.
It has a niche and is at least a usable and fun D rank. I'm not sure if it is enough to be ranked, but like the mons above I don't have a preference either way.
Arceus-Fairy (A-1 -> A4)
Arceus-Water (B+ -> A-4)
Arceus-Grass (C -> C+)
Arceus-Dragon (C+ -> C)
Arceus-Poison (C -> D)
Arceus-Ground (S-1)
Arceus-Dark (A+2)
Calyrex-I (B+)
Arceus-Ghost (B)
Giratina (B-)
Shuckle (B-)
Chansey (B-)
Flutter Mane (C+)
Chi-Yu (C+)
Dialga (C+)
Arceus-Flying (C)
Arceus-Steel (C)
Kingambit (C)
Arceus-Rock (C)
Melmetal (C)
Cresselia (C-)
Hatterene (C-)
Zamazenta (UR -> D)
Darkrai (D -> UR)
Silk Scarf 
I don't think Arceus-Dark really needs to rise or drop, maybe one spot, but it should stay in A+. Maybe this is a skill issue, but fitting the defensive sets that have been metagame staples for nearly the entire time NDUbers has existed feel damn near impossible to fit outside of of very specific structures. This is a far cry from how splashable it was during the Xerneas metagame.
