CAP Buff 5 - Part 2 - Kitsunoh Buff Discussion

[faithviolet]

WIP

+14 Atk
+17 Spe
+Purifying Salt
-Iron Fist
+Encore

My goals, copied from a prior post:

• Due to its good defensive typing and reasonable bulk, Kitsunoh is able to switch into several important threats and force them out.
• Due to Shadow Strike, Pokemon without offensive presence are not able to just sit on Kitsunoh wasting turns.
• Due to Kitsunoh's broad disruptive/support movepool, as well as its speed, Kitsunoh is still able to make progress when the opponent has a counter.

Kitsunoh is currently very vulnerable to status, with both paralysis and burn crippling it horribly. Purifying Salt allows it to act as a status absorber, switching in on scalds, wisps, and thunder waves, and gives it a type-asymmetrical advantage over other Ghost types. (and with the attack buff, it OHKO's Dragapult)

There are unfortunately few physical attackers we can switch in on safely (speed is added to be able to outspeed Ogerpon-Wellspring when neutral nature, one main exception), even with strength sap as available fast healing, because most good physical attackers have Dark, Fire, or Ground STAB, so I have focused on special bulk. The presence of Encore makes Venomicon an easy switch-in-and-force-out.

edit: I have seen that I took too long to post Purifying Salt as an ability first. I will check that one out as well. It looks like my buff package may be going overboard. I am removing the bulk for now.

 

[viol and bass]

I'd take issue with this only because you completely neuter Shadow Strike, since you'll be ignoring the enemies defense *drops* as well.

Yeah, I addressed that in my post. I think you probably just run Poltergeist the more I think about it. It’s awkward against consumables but you have other tools available. I’ll update the sub when I get a chance to run some calcs.

 

[the mystery duck]

WIP

+5 Def
+10 SpD
+2 Spe
+Levitate
- Iron Fist

Stat changes are for more ev flexibility while still outspeeding base 110s. Levitate helps Kitsunoh to reduce vulnerability to hazards, weaknesses, and item dependency.

 

[UwU1v1]

WIP

+Encore
+Parting Shot
+16 Spe
+Regenerator
+10 HP
-Strength Sap
-Pain Split
-Wish


Adding another option for regenerator with parting shot, obviously this might be really good, which is why I removed all of its other healing options. Speed for Darkrai. The bulk doesn't really hit a benchmark, but now with extra HP, it's a lot safer to switch in.

I'm not sure how broken this would be, but it seems that it would be really good. I'm open to any criticism/suggestions.

Sample Set: Kitsunoh @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Regenerator
Tera Type: Water
EVs: I'm terrible with evs
Jolly Nature
- Parting Shot
- Shadow Strike
- Encore
- Will-O-Wisp

 

[Brambane]

I would like to hear everyone's thoughts on Encore specifically.

Considering Kitsunoh's pool of immunities at the moment (Fighting / Poison / Normal / poison status / paralysis / Ground with Air Balloon), Kitsunoh has a lot of potential to disrupt and pressure opponents with Encore. In combination with moves such as Will-O-Wisp, Strength Sap, Shadow Strike lowering Defense or Night Shade for 24 PP consistent damage, Kitsunoh could use the move to effectively disrupt many common Pokemon, such as Venomicon or even Arghonaut. While this is a clear metagame niche and Encore can be punished by switching into the move, given the power of the move by itself it warrants closer examination before considering a slate.

Personally I think Encore is synergistic with Kitsunoh's gameplan and the playstyle it creates for the Pokemon is fine, but I would understand and proceed with the larger opinion of our community if we don't want to introduce that playstyle to the metagame.

 

[ryangregory78]

Final Submission

+15 Attack
+3 Defense
+28 Sp. Defense
+8 Speed
+Magic Bounce
-Limber
+Encore
+Roar

15 more Attack lets Kit OHKO DeoS with Shadow Strike after a round of LO chip with no investment, 3 more Defense lets Kit live two LO DeoS Knocks from full with max HP, 28 more SpDef lets Kit almost always live two Pult Hexes from full with max HP, and 8 more Speed situates Kit in between post-Booster Val and Moon/Ace.

The most important thing to give Kitsunoh in this process is the ability to fulfill a role that neither Pult nor Ghold can replicate. As such, it's pointless to try and shoehorn a role for Kit on offensive teams, since in almost all situations, one of those two will be more desirable. Since trying to slot Kit onto offensive builds is futile, why not go the other way? Hazard control is always going to be a godsend in SV, so much so that Hatterene - a C-rank Pokemon just a generation ago - has hung on to convincing OU status for pretty much the entirety of Gen9. Since neither Ghold or Pult can pull off hazard removal/control, and since you have a significantly better matchups into much of the meta thanks to your typing and higher speed, Kit in theory makes for a great user of the ability. Steel/Ghost lets in completely dominate Venom, bouncing back its Rocks and, with new access to Encore, locking it into Roost or Nasty Plot to be exploited by a teammate. You do have a slightly harder time against the Spikers, but Wisp easily puts Argh and Ting-Lu on a timer and Gliscor has to worry about potential Air Balloon as not to thud into an immunity. Limber is removed over Iron Fist because Magic Bounce already effectively shields Kit from the most common forms of para infliction (Thunder Wave), so keeping Limber around isn't necessary. As a Ghost-type, bounced hazards can be fairly difficult to remove as well, allowing to further solidify its team's advantage in the hazard war. Roar gives Kit a mode of counterplay against the smattering of Booster mons running around that would otherwise block its Poltergeist, doubling as a safety net against the likes of Booster Val and Crown and a potential shuffler that can abuse the Spikes it bounces back.

Sample Set: Kitsunoh @ Heavy-Duty Boots / Air Balloon
Level: 100
Jolly Nature
Tera Type: Water / Fairy / Flying
Ability: Magic Bounce
EVs: 252 HP / 16 SpD / 240 Spe
- Will-O-Wisp / Meteor Mash / Roar
- Encore / Meteor Mash / Roar
- Strength Sap
- Poltergeist / Shadow Strike / Meteor Mash

 

[kenn]

Final Submission

+ 15 HP
+ 8 Attack
+ 7 Spe
+ Fluffy
- Iron Fist
-5 SpD

+15 HP allows Kitsunoh to live Choice Band Roaring Moon's Knock Off and +1 Tera Dark Knock Off from Iron Valiant in conjunction with its new ability, Fluffy. +8 Attack OHKOes Iron Boulder after Stealth Rock and Bulky Kingambit with Close Combat. +7 Speed outpaces Iron Valiant after Booster Energy has been used and anything slower. -5 SpD gives Kitsunoh a bit more of a weakness to special moves since most physical non-Fire moves are going to be tanked thanks to Fluffy. Notable things are being OHKOed 100% of the time by Offensive Gholdengo's Shadow Ball (even if Kit is max HP, Gholdengo still has a 6.3% chance to OHKO lol); however, it still allows Kit to live Gholdengo's uninvested Shadow Ball.

This particular buff aims to not just set Kitsunoh apart from other Ghost-types, but to utilize its fantastic defensive typing. Fluffy + Strength Sap ensures that most physical attackers will have a hard time breaking through Kitsunoh while not skewing any of the special attackers' matchups.

Set

Kitsunoh @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Fluffy
Tera Type: Water
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Shadow Strike
- U-turn / Knock Off
- Strength Sap
- Will-O-Wisp / Knock Off

Final Submission

+ 18 Speed
+ Encore
+ Opportunist
- Iron Fist

+18 Speed allows Kit to outspeed +1 Dragonite as well as Weavile and Darkrai. Encore + Opportunist has fantastic synergy as Kitsunoh can outspeed most things, Encore them into their set up move, and set up alongside them. Encore also has just great general utility due to Kit's fantastic support movepool.

This buff package aims to disrupt the offensive nature of not just the meta, but this whole generation because there is a ton of setup sweepers that are really good at what they do and Kit being able to "steal" those boosts flips the momentum easily and forces mons to take it out before they set up.

Set

Kitsunoh @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Opportunist
Tera Type: Fairy / Water
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Shadow Strike
- Encore
- Strength Sap
- Will-O-Wisp / Close Combat / Earthquake / any sort of coverage

 

[dex]

Final Submission

+18 Spe
+20 HP
+8 Atk
+Regenerator
-Iron Fist

Speed for +1 Dragonite, HP for Landorus-T Earthquake, and Attack to OHKO Iron Boulder after rocks. Regenerator gives Kitsunoh the niche it so desperately desires while playing on some its good qualities. Kitsunoh has a great typing and a wide, wide movepool. Regenerator frees Kitsunoh to run any number of support/coverage moves, as Tornadus-T has done in the past. This allows for Kitsunoh to become the ultimate utility tool, spamming Knock Off and U-turn, Strength Sap and Will-O-Wisp, Shadow Strike and its coverage moves to simply force progress onto the opponent. This buff is also targeted at letting Kitsunoh use any number of items with great success. Boots become solid on it, as they are with many regen users, but so too does Cloak, Assault Vest, Helmet, and others. I do believe that this buff package the best way to differentiate it from its competition, and I think Kitsunoh, flatly, needs the help.

The buff leader said that there could be more stats tacked onto this buff. I think where it is is more than enough strength to work with.

 

[Imw0rstadP0keM0n]

Final 2

+ Parental Bond (replaces Iron Fist)
+ 5 Attack
+ 11 Speed
+ Upper Hand

ok ok I know what you are thinking, Parental Bond is bonkers with Shadow Strike! Which... it is. Two 50% chances to drop defense on a ghost type move make switching into Kitsunoh incredibly difficult, and allow for various other strategies (Iron Head + Thunderwave hax sets, etc). With 121 speed you speed tie Torn-T and outspeed Roaring Moon, which is scary. Upper Hand works amazingly against Kingambit and Hamurotts that'd want to sucker punch you dead.

Pokemon still loses to Darkrai, Weavile, and arguably Zamazenta, though they all have to be much more careful of switching into Parental Bond Shadow Strike.

i'll post some calcs when I get more time later

 

[Scepticskep]

I would like to hear everyone's thoughts on Encore specifically.

I've already discussed Encore in my package, but I think out of any singular buff Kit can receive, a speed buff combined with Encore would provide Kitsunoh the most direct success, allowing it to have a presence in front of offensive threats without delving too heavily into being a bulky wall. It allows Kitsunoh to force switches and allows its own teammates to switch in safely. This I believe would be the tool that opens up a modern scouting niche for Kitsunoh. Whatever ability or stat buff Kitsunoh may receive, Encore should come alongside it.

 

[Steam Buns]

FINAL SUB

+12 speed
+7 def
+6 attack
+tough claws
- iron fist

117 speed lets kit outpace valiant and is frankly the only really important benchmark we can give to this pokemon, with an extra 7 in defense max hp kit lives a -1 headlong rush from tusk and 2 crunches after rocks from zamazenta, finally +6 in attack lets 252 attack kit ohko 252 defense malaconda after rocks with u-turn.

This package or any slight variations of it, is to me a perfect kitsunoh buff, I wholeheartedly feel we should change as little about the pokemon as possible both to preserve its identity and for the fact that kitsunoh has worked really well competitively for a really long time because its fundamental characteristics are strong and unique, it has simply fallen behind in stats. This is why I like tough claws, it is functionally the same as iron fist but a bit better and also synergises with kitsunohs signature move, AND actually fits really well flavour wise.

 

[boo836]

WIP

+20 HP
-8 Atk
+7 Spe
-20 SpD
+Regenerator
-Iron Fist
+Rage Fist
+Body Press
-Iron Defence
-Will-O-Wisp
-Hone Claws


It seems I'm swinging for the fences with this one, but hear me out. Rage Fist alone is not enough to make Kitsunoh viable. Kitsunoh has no way of reliably boosting its Attack stat outside of Psych Up, avoiding the principal issue Annihilape posed in early SV play. This buff package retools Kitsunoh into a bulky pivot (100/85/60 bulk) capable of pressuring against low-damage progress while still posing a burden on set-up sweepers like Ogerpon. Kitsunoh can now pressure doubles into strong Ground types and U-Turn out or try walling on the physical side against neutral sweepers. I strongly support the direction of DPM's buff package, but I cannot imagine this direction could justify Kitsunoh's use without real longevity.

Uninvested Rage Fist isn't as strong as some people think, at least when it's unboosted. 95 Attack unboosted and uninvested doesn't hit that hard without reaching 200+ BP. The only issue I may see arising from this buff package is whether the special bulk drop is enough to make up for the ability to tank some physical attackers. I do not think that adding healing in addition to Rage Fist necessarily breaks Kitsunoh with an appropriate stat spread. My initial impulse was to actually take off 30 points of Special Defence (100/85/50 bulk), but Gen 9 power creep might severely reduce the versatility I'm aiming for here. I think the best comparisons are to Annihilape's bulk (110/80/90), which surpasses Kitsunoh, and Amoongus (114/70/80).

The biggest issue i think is that it's easy to end up with Strength Sap being too pressuring on Ground-type answers (Strength Sap+Iron Defence being way too much for Tusk). I could be convinced to drop Strength Sap for Slack Off, but this package is aimed to leverage healing into future offensive progress. Terastalization makes this a trickier balancing act than it should be, because it turns a lot of match-ups on their heads. I think these changes should work, though! I'm not entirely sure on whether the Attack and Special Defence stats should be lowered further, but Speed should be 117. I think non-boostered Valiant should be the benchmark to pass here, as there's just no reason to use a Rage Fist pivot with this typing if it can't reliably punish Valiant.

252/0/0 spreads get OHKO'd by +1 Tera Ogerpon-W, neutral Kingambit, and +1 Hemoglobin. It needs at least Max HP and 116 Defense EVs to survive Kingambit's Kowtow Cleave and can barely maximise 75% on Kingambit with SR with 116 Def. I think this is another good reason to get rid of Iron Defence, WoW, and boosting options generally, as we don't want Kitsunoh to become so tanky on the physical side that it can simple overcome its Dark/ Ground checks and snowball on Iron Defence boosts. Without these, Kitsunoh struggles immensely against some of the stronger Pokemon in the metagame while still being a decent pivot and scout.

Sample Set: Kitsunoh @ Heavy-Duty Boots / Colbur Berry
Level: 100
Jolly Nature
Tera Type: Ghost / Fighting / Dark / Bug / Water
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 252 HP / 116 Def / 140 Spe
- Rage Fist
- Strength Sap
- U-Turn / Toxic / Knock Off / Meteor Mash / Shadow Strike / Tail Whip
- Body Press / Meteor Mash / Shadow Strike / Knock Off

-335 Outspeeds Garchomp, but outsped by neutral Roaring Moon
-Needs 150 Rage Fist or Tera Ghost on 100 to avoid becoming fodder for Chuggalong
-Avoids OHKO by neutral Kingambit with SR up.
-2HKOs Kingambit with Body Press
-Tail Whip is the only reliable way to boost damage through stat changes, but Shadow Strike can be used to fish
-Colbur + Tera Fighting dedicates Kitsunoh to absorbing Knock Offs and leveraging Body Press and Rage Fist against common offensive mons

 

[Da Pizza Man]

Final Submission #1

+ Rage Fist
+ 8 HP
+ 8 Attack
+ 1 Speed
- Strength Sap
- Pain Split
- Wish

Rage Fist along is obviously an insane buff, and just having this move alone is a pretty substantial buff for this Pokemon. Given that, I decided that most of our stats didn't really need any sustainable increases, nor did I feel that an ability change would be appropriate here. The increase in HP allows us to always survive Shadow Ball from Offensive Gholdengo with max investment, while the Attack boost allows us to OHKO in return with 100 BP Rage Fist, while the speed boost just ensures that we always outspeed Ogerpon (We really don't need much speed to be honest, I mostly just did this because I wanted to reduce the number of speed ties in this tier). After some consideration, I decided that removing most forms of recovery on Kitsunoh would be appropriate, as I am not super comfortable with the idea of having reliably recovery alongside Rage Fist. Overall, I think could make for a really cool pivot that punishes the repeated use of weaker moves and more passive play, and gives Kitsunoh a very solid reason to be used over its competition. I also think that we lack many of the qualities that made Rage Fist a broken move on Annihilape, which alleviates many of the concerns that we should have about this move being to overbearing.

Set:

Kitsunoh @ Heavy-Duty Boots / Leftovers
Ability: Iron Fist
Tera Type: Water
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Rage Fist
- U-turn
- Will-O-Wisp
- Close Combat / Meteor Mash / Knock Off / Protect

 

[Brigtel]

Final Submission #2

+10 HP
+7 Atk
+7 Spe
+Levitate
-Poltergeist
-Strength Sap

Very similar to my previous one, so I know only one could be slated, but I wanted to present an alternative that removes Kitsunoh's best source of healing which makes some of the interactions enabled by Levitate less one-sided for Kitsunoh. For example, coming in on a Great Tusk and getting Knocked on the switch would be a severe punishment, switching into specs Kyurem would have more consequence, protect Libra could doom desire on the switch, protect and switch out, which would deal small but significant damage to Kit. I'm sure you can think of many other interactions.
To compensate, Kitsunoh is given more bulk.

Maybe this is more reasonable in terms of power than my first submission, I am not sure, but I am posting it in case, since we're allowed two

 

[Gekokeso]

Final Submission

+Bulletproof
-Iron Fist
+20 HP
+17 Spe
+Encore

With bulletproof, Kit gains a niche over its ghost type competition by being an option to help against not only other ghosts like Dragapult or Gholdengo (hex sets can be an issue, but bulk allows it to come in on good turns and force a switch, as it lives hex from full hp on both mons), but also as a hard counter to Cinderace that can use it to gain momentum. Speed outspeed common benchmarks mentioned above such as Weavile or Darkrai.

 

[Brambane]

Hello everyone.

For a slate, I am considering 4 to 6 options total based on what has been submitted. I don't want too many "similar" options on a slate. With that being said, I have three buff packages I like for our preliminary slate, with potential for more to be added or these to bet cut based on the community discussion. Several of these are still WIP, but I expect they will be final subbed before the deadline.

WIP

+40 Speed
+Magician
-Iron Fist

This buff package is marvelously direct; make Kitsunoh faster, even faster than Dragapult, and let it carve its niche out of that. With newfound Speed control, Kitsunoh has much more liberty to burn and revenge kill and Taunt and do all those wonderful things Kitsunoh did when its Speed was actually good for its metagame. Magician is more fun and novel than anything else; you probably aren't running Magician + Poltergeist and the extra power compared to Shadow Strike is quite nice. Limber is probably the ideal ability here anyways.

WIP

+14 Atk
+17 Spe
+Purifying Salt
-Iron Fist
+Encore

An awesome callback to Kitsunoh's old defense profile, Purifying Salt reclaims lost glory. lezzy cuttlefish also has a Purifying Salt buff package which leans more defensive. I think Kitsunoh longs for a better immediate offensive presence, which this submission achieves with more Speed, Attack, and critically Encore. Being immune to all status and then pressuring with Encore is strong and certainly on the power level of Gen 9. Turning Kitsunoh into a Ghost that helps pressure Ghosts means it doesn't supplant the roles of established Gholdengo and Dragapult, but responds to them. Why be in competition with them when you can attack them directly?

Final Submission

+18 Spe
+20 HP
+8 Atk
+Regenerator
-Iron Fist

A good stat improvement with a solid ability to support Kitsunoh's playstyle of balancing solid resists/immunities with common weaknesses by pivoting. The change invokes memories of Gen 8 Tornadus-T, but with the added twist of Will-O-Wisp. I agree with dex that Regenerator adds a lot of diversity to Kitsunoh's item options. Regenerator is usually an ability we are leery about handing out, but given that Kitsunoh is genuinely unplayable right now and that it ties in so nicely with Kitsunoh's typing and scouting identity, I think its a good opportunity let the ability shine.

Considering with Some Changes or Discussion

Final Submission

+ 17 Atk
+ 16 Spe
+ 10 HP
+ 5 Def
+ 10 SpDef
+ Encore
+ Infiltrator

Infiltrator is cool when you get to use it, but this buff package is really about the stats and fast Encore. This stat buff bumps Kitsunoh up to a 90/120/90/55/90/126 spread, which is frankly incredible stats. A little bit too incredible. The bulk can definitely be toned down. I would keep Encore, since a fast Encore is sort of what makes this spread shine.

Final Submission

+10 defense
+15 special defense
+4 speed
+Purifying Salt
-Iron Fist

I think if this was really fast and bulky it would stand out a lot more. +4 Speed just isn't a lot without the power of an Attack boost or offensive ability I could see Kitsunoh becoming too passive. I am hesitant to submit two Purifying Salts to the slate, but a variation of this with more immediate presence could definitely stand out.

WIP 2

+ 18 Speed
+ Encore
+ Opportunist
- Iron Fist

Encore + Opportunist is funny. This ability is lowkey cracked given the sweepers in the metagame like Chuggalong. It doesn't turn Kitsunoh into a wall, but more of a really aggressive anti-sweeper Pokemon. Admittedly a cool niche, but I need feedback from the community on this one. This is a hit or whiff kind of ability. I think the Speed with Encore is enough to carry Kitsunoh to some degree of usability, but does Opportunist add to much volatility to the game?

WIP

+ 16 Spe
+ 20 HP
+ Encore
+ Perish Body
- Iron Fist

After mulling this ability over, I suspect Perish Body is cool but not overbearing upon the metagame. But its hard to really predict the impact of such a unique ability. There are a lot of special attackers that won't be affected by it and the ability is going to be best as a way to either emergency stop some sweepers and secure the endgame vs a last Pokemon. Still, this package is fast and has Encore. I wonder if you value more HP or Attack on this kind of Pokemon; I suspect Attack since you probably want to play hit-and-run.

WIP

+25 HP
+9 Attack
+18 Speed
+Trace
-Poltergeist

Trace is immeasurably cool when it works, and Levitate Equilibra is your prime target. There are fine abilities to copy, such as Water Absorb from Ogerpon. The issue I have is it doesn't seem like enough of niche for Kitsunoh to see realistic use. A Pokemon like Equilibra loves Levitate the vast majority of time, but would happily run Bulletproof sometimes too and now it can bait the shit out of Kitsunoh. If it wasn't so bad into Libra's tech option I would more heavily consider it. I think this needs a little more, and it can definitely keep Poltergeist.

Buff Package V2

Stat Changes:
+20 Atk
+5 Def
+5 SpD
+15 Spe
-25 SpA

Ability Changes:
+Magic Bounce (-Iron Fist)

Too overtuned in the stats department. Remove the bulk increase plus lower the Attack increase substantially, or remove it outright, and I will happily consider this for the slate. Magic Bounce is obviously an astounding ability, and a truly "fast" Magic Bouncer would definitely carve a niche for Kitsunoh in the builder. I think the metagame is equipped to handle an additional Magic Bouncer, especially a Ghost/Steel-type one, but I would be interested in hearing more from our experienced tournament players. This ability gets a lot of vitriol, so I get if we push back against it, but I like it well enough.

WIP 2

+7 speed
+7 def
+6 attack
+tough claws
- iron fist

A directly offensive buff with more power is linear but effective. This turns Kitsunoh into more of a breaker, with Shadow Strike Defense drops and the 130 BP STAB Meteor Mash now on the table, making an otherwise ho-hum option much more appealing. I will slate this if the community really likes this direction for Kitsunoh, looking for feedback here.

Not Considering for the Slate

Final Submission

-Iron Fist
-Strength Sap
+Unaware
+Encore
-18 HP
+25 Atk
+21 Spe

Fast Unaware is cool but I don't see it really working well for us here. Losing HP and Strength Sap does remove a lot of the defensive utility that Kitsunoh brought to the table as a scout and pivot. I think this just turns Kitsunoh into an effective all-out attacker with Encore. The bigger thing is I think the targets for offensive Unaware are usually annoyed just by Encore alone. I want to do an offensive Unaware CAP someday, but I don't think Kitsunoh is the one.

WIP

+Encore
+Parting Shot
+16 Spe
+Regenerator
+10 HP
-Strength Sap
-Pain Split
-Wish

Fast Encore is strong, and Regenerator is strong; I think even with the movepool cuts that this goes a bit too far. Parting Shot is an interesting suggestion and not something I am against by itself, but combined with the other changes I am going to have to say no here. dex purposely withholding Encore was a good measured call.

Final Submission

+15 Attack
+3 Defense
+28 Sp. Defense
+8 Speed
+Magic Bounce
-Limber
+Encore
+Roar

Completely busted, Encore + Magic Bounce sounds like the gameplay equivalent of sliding down a water slide full of oyster shells. The stat increase is also too much given the power of the ability.

Final 2

+ Parental Bond (replaces Iron Fist)
+ 5 Attack
+ 11 Speed
+ Upper Hand

YES, now this is the kind of cooking we NEED in this kitchen. Double Defense drops? Double Attack boosts from Meteor Mash? DOUBLE NIGHT SHADES? You're Kitsunoh, you're a spooky ghost. Sneak into their mansion, rob their treasury, steal their soul, and 2HKO Venomicon with your 200 fixed damage nuke. Obviously I can't slate this, but oh it brings me joy.

Final Submission #2

+10 HP
+7 Atk
+7 Spe
+Levitate
-Poltergeist
-Strength Sap

While I love freeing up Kitsunoh's item slot, I think the defensive profile of Kitsunoh being immune to Ground just upends to metagame in too many ways. Even cutting Strength Sap, Kitsunoh just forces so many Pokemon to reconsider their movesets and I could see this getting really frustrating for the builder. A more fair approach to this would be encouraging sets to run Air Balloon.

Final Submission #1

+ Rage Fist
+ 8 HP
+ 8 Attack
+ 1 Speed
- Strength Sap
- Pain Split
- Wish

Recovery gone, but who cares, you fist angrily. Realistically, what this becomes is a Pokemon that you switch in on U-turns or other really telegraphed moves until you get enough boosts to basically become a wallbreaker and sweeper in one. Very cool and very funny, but probably not super healthy for our metagame or soul. I did strongly consider this, but I see it adding more harm than good in the end. Sorry Rage Fist. You're still the coolest move out there.

WIP

+20 HP
-8 Atk
+7 Spe
-20 SpD
+Regenerator
-Iron Fist
+Rage Fist
+Body Press
-Iron Defence
-Will-O-Wisp
-Hone Claws

Similar to above, no to Rage Fist. ESPECIALLY Regenerator + Rage Fist. I respect the cook, but we have burned the scallops and the soufflé has collapsed. Chef Ramsay would be pissed.

WIP
+Shadow Shield
-Iron Fist
+16 Speed
+18 Attack
+Disable
-Poltergeist

I really REALLY really like this, and if Cresceidon didn't exist I would be all for it. However, just as we will never do another Neutralizing Gas CAP, I think Cresceidon has the fast Multiscaler under lock and key. I think this buff is super cool, and Strength Sap goes hard. Imagine if this had -50 HP and +20 Defenses or something? Disgusting.

Final 1

+ Perish Body (replacing Iron Fist)
+ Fluffy (replacing Frisk)
+ 5 speed
+ 10 HP
+ 20 Def
+ Mean Look
- Poltergeist

This replaces two abilities, so I consider it a non-starter. Mean Look + Perish Body is funny, I wonder how often you actually pull that off.

WIP 2

+12 Atk
-1 Speed
+Gigaton Hammer
-Poltergeist

Picture this: you lead with Torkoal. Eject Pack Shell Smash. Kitsunoh comes in. Copycat the Shell Smash. You Gigaton Hammer. You COPYCAT THE HAMMER. THIS PLAN CANNOT FAIL.

Realistically, -1 Speed is such a hit that not even Gigaton Hammer can overcome what you have lost.

WIP
+Opportunist
-Iron Fist
+Tidy Up
+Parting Shot
+Comeuppance
-10 Def
+35 SpD
+33 Speed

There is a LOT going on here. Too much going on really. If you wanted to focus on Tidy Up or Opportunist either is fine, but a set-up Pokemon that you also can't set-up parallel to sounds vile. I forgot Comeuppance was even a move, there is no shot Kitsunoh ever runs that anyways. The Speed benchmark is interesting though, I respect going for 143.

WIP

+No Guard
-Iron Fist
+17 Spe
+10 Atk

Doesn't feel impactful enough, just a bit more power and some consistency. I think Tough Claws does this direction better overall, largely to boosting the power of the coverage moves like Close Combat and Meteor Mash way more than +10 Attack.

WIP 1

+ 15 HP
+14 Attack
+ 7 Spe
+ Fluffy
- Iron Fist
-5 SpD

I went to look at recent tournament usage and replays and I don't see this working well enough unfortunately. Obviously more bulk is good and you annoy Zamazenta, but with only +7 Speed and still being vulnerable to the vast pool of Special Attackers and Earthquake users in the format, I see this making Kitsunoh objectively better but still hard to slot on most teams. If we had a fair few more contact attackers to punish, I could see it working much better.

I am going to set tentative deadline for Friday, 8:00 PM GMT-4. I will have the final slate together then. Now is the time to include feedback on the different buff packages submitted thus far! Great stuff everyone, thank you!

 

[earthflax]

Final Submission

+14 Attack
+18 Speed
+Trace
+Encore
+Upper Hand
-Iron Fist

• Speed tier: Outspeeds Weavile, Darkrai, and +1 Dragonite while getting outsped by Booster Speed users and Dragapult.
• Attack: Guarantees a Shadow Strike 2HKO on defensive Gholdengo.
• TRACE INTERACTIONS:
  • Hard-walls Levitate Equilibra.
  • Great interaction into Ogerpon-Wellspring and its best/most common coverage move. Has a poor matchup into Knock Off and Stomping Tantrum but it gains the capability to force it into Ivy Cudgel / Swords Dance / resisted moves.
  • Traces Dauntless Shield off of Zamazenta which turns it into even better counterplay (though it does only copy the boost once tmk.)
  • Traces Dragonite's Multiscale and essentially turns into a hardwall due to Wisp + Strength Sap.
  • Nabs Regenerator off of Slowking-Galar (which it forces out) and Alomomola, making it less necessary to utilize recovery in matchups vs. fat Regencores. Also traces Blissey's Natural Cure which can act as a nice little de-status in a pinch.
  • Dondozo gets taken advantage of 100% of the time.
  • Traces Hemo's Pixilate for FAIRY-TYPE ENCORE.

Encore and Upper Hand are just other useful disruption tools that I think Kit absolutely deserves. This allows it plenty more movepool variation with the opportunity to tech its multiple utility moves onto a set that already is very disruptive to many of the meta's top threats and is able to force switches very regularly.

set+some calcs

Kitsunoh @ Covert Cloak
Ability: Trace
Tera Type: Fairy / Water / Flying
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Shadow Strike
- U-turn / Meteor Mash
- Strength Sap / U-turn / Upper Hand (!!!)
- Will-O-Wisp / Encore / Protect / Strength Sap

defensive calcs 2 come

252 Atk Kitsunoh Shadow Strike vs. 252 HP / 196+ Def Gholdengo: 192-228 (50.7 - 60.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Kitsunoh Shadow Strike vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Dragapult: 308-366 (97.1 - 115.4%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO
252 Atk Kitsunoh Shadow Strike vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Ogerpon-Wellspring: 141-166 (46.8 - 55.1%) -- 69.5% chance to 2HKO
252 Atk Kitsunoh Meteor Mash vs. 252 HP / 52 Def Garganacl: 210-248 (51.9 - 61.3%) -- 95.3% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Supreme Overlord 3 allies fainted Kitsunoh Upper Hand vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Kingambit: 292-348 (85.6 - 102%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock (4 the culture)

 

[the mystery duck]

Final Submission

+14 Atk
+10 Spe
+Encore
+Heatproof
- Iron Fist

Heatproof allows Kitsunoh with no evs in defensive stats to survive a hit from most non-choiced fire moves if near or at full, most notably Hemogoblin. The increase in attack is for bulky Gholdengo and speed is to be faster than Cinderace and unboosted Roaring Moon. Encore compliments the speed increase with Kitsunoh's typing.

 

[the mystery duck]

Also, I like all three of the main buff packages on the preliminary slate, even though the Levitate package that keeps Strength Sap is the one I like the most. As for the packages under consideration, the Perish Body and Opportunist bundles stand out to me the most. The former seems unique and interesting while the latter is good for keeping set up sweepers in line. I would actually like the defensive Purifying Salt package more than the offensive one if it had more speed and Encore. I also would like the Gigaton Hammer package if it had a slight speed increase instead of a slight speed decrease.

 

[quziel]

Submission 2:
+20 Speed
+10 Defense
+10 Attack
+ Magician
- Iron Fist




We're gaming here. This package does 3 things simultaneously. Firstly the attack gives you the ability to 2HKO Darkrai [1] with Stealth Rock up using U-turn while uninvested. The speed lets you actually capitalize on this by outrunning Darkrai, meaning that while it definitely threatens you out, it doesn't really beat you very well. It's +20 speed instead of +16 speed because I wanted my BST increase to be a round number.The increase in base defense ensures that you always live 2 Crunches from Iron Defense Zamazenta [2] after Stealth Rock damage yourself, which means you can switch into it at least once and sap it. Magician again because I think it really helps you with trying to maximize the amount of utility you're carrying.

[1] 0 Atk Kitsunoh U-turn vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Darkrai: 124-146 (44.1 - 51.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
[2] 0 Atk Zamazenta Crunch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Kitsunoh: 142-168 (39 - 46.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock

 

[SHSP]

havent had time to formulate any ideas of my own so I wanna highlight some of my favs:

+7 speed
+7 def
+6 attack
+tough claws
- iron fist

I vibe a lot with this one. Tough Claws has been a Kit idea for a WHILE now and though I'm not calcing specific stuff yet, I think this moves the needle for Kit really cleanly and effectively. I'd be very curious to see what sets arise out of TC, definitely could see a lot of things depending on how hard +6 +TC hits.

+ 18 Speed
+ Encore
+ Opportunist
- Iron Fist

This one is probably my favorite out of everything I've seen so far, honestly. Turning Kit into a really creative/clever anti-setup mon seems like a really unique niche, even if its maybe a bit hit or miss. The speed increase alone feels really nice, too, and encore is encore, hard to go wrong w/that as an option.

Both of these two feel very in-line with what I'd look for out of a buff process as well- not going too overboard with additions and aiming for something to instantly become a metagame staple. Of course, we want to avoid something like a Voodoom buff process where the needle was moved little to none, but going too far and ending up with something similar to Pyroak's is also far from ideal. I'm not a fan of the massive stat buffs or abilities like Magic Bounce for those sort of reasons.

 

[dex]

I would like to caution people who support Opportunist packages.

I view Opportunist as a similar ability to Corrosion. It is a very tricky ability to properly balance, one where the space between meta-warping and unimpactful is exceedingly thin. I believe abilities like these should not be within the scope of the buff process and require the more thorough examination the CAP process proper provides, one dedicated to exploring the general impact a viable Opportunist Pokemon would have on a metagame. Opportunist punishes setup. Punishing setup is not a new or unwanted concept; Arghonaut does this already. But Opportunist does much more; counter-sweeping has been a strategy for some time (Heart Swap), and a Pokemon that can always countersweep without dedicating a moveslot to something like Heart Swap sounds... meta-warping, especially in a metagame that has as many setup threats as SV CAP does. I do not see much room for error (or room at all) for the balanced Opportunist Pokemon, especially when you throw in the myriad utility options Kitsunoh retains access to. Including Encore on any Opportunist build is particularly abhorrent, but so too do moves like Strength Sap leave me concerned over the playstyle an Opportunist Kitsunoh would engage in. On the flip side, it could be that Kitsunoh simply does not generate enough pressure without these tools to do much of anything with Opportunist, leading to my assertion that the target Opportunist seeks to hit is quite small. I do think Opportunist is balanceable (and like Corrosion, would deserve a process unto itself), but the buff process is not the place for it. I think its potential impact on the metagame is just too vast for the current scope and working around that has a high chance to leave Kitsunoh as destitute for sets as when we started.

 

[earthflax]

I would like to caution people who support Regenerator packages.

I view Regenerator as a similar ability to Levitate. It is a very obvious choice for Pokemon that require longevity and as a result are brought up almost every process. I believe abilities like these should be within the scope of the buff process but require more thorough examination due to their obvious “good”ness, an examination which explores the necessity of an ability of this caliber and any stat buffs beyond it. Regenerator heals you upon switch. Healing is not a new or unwanted concept; Corviknight does this already. But Regenerator does much more; healing has been a strategy for some time (Recover), and a Pokemon that can always heal without dedicating a moveslot to something like Recover sounds... meta-warping, especially in a metagame that has as many sources of chip damage as SV CAP does. I do not see much room for error (or room at all) for the balanced Regenerator Kitsunoh, especially when you throw in the myriad utility options that it retains access to. Including major stat buffs on any Regenerator build is particularly abhorrent, but so too do moves like Strength Sap leave me concerned over the playstyle a Regenerator Kitsunoh would engage in. On the flip side, it could be that Kitsunoh simply does not generate enough pressure without these tools or stat buffs to do much of anything with Regenerator, leading to my assertion that the target Regenerator seeks to hit is quite small due to Kitsunoh's inherently strong defensive typing and vast utility options. I do think Regenerator is balanceable (and like Levitate, deserves a broken Ground-type spinner), but the buff process is not the place for it. I think its potential impact on the metagame is just too vast for the current scope and working around that has a high chance to leave Kitsunoh as destitute for sets as when we started.

 

[Scepticskep]

Final Submission

+ 20 HP
+12 Atk
+16 Speed
+ Encore
+ Perish Body
- Iron Fist

• +20 HP makes standard Ghold Shadow Ball a roll, Equilibra Earth Power a very hard roll, Pult Shadow Ball a less damaging 2HKO, Lando-T Earthquake a roll, and in general is meant to provide Kitsunoh the ability to proc Perish Body or utilize utility without instantly dying.
• +12 Atk allows Shadow Strike on Boots Pivot Pult to be a 75% roll, Bulky Gholdengo an almost guaranteed 2HKO, and in general allows Kitsunoh to directly threaten prominent ghost types and boost its neutral hits while fishing for defense drops.
• +16 Speed outspeeds Cresc, Darkrai and Weavile un-Scarfed, allowing it to become the fastest utility mon over Cresc as well as hitting strong U-Turns on fast but frail Dark types. Scarfed, Kitsunoh outspeeds almost every mon available, while resisting most priority outside Shadow Sneak and Sucker Punch.
• Encore allows Kitsunoh to take significant advantage of its many immunities ( Normal/Fighting/Poison, poison status, spinning, paralysis w/ Limber) as well as its great defensive typing. It forces opponents into hitting moves that A. do no damage to Kitsunoh, B. do no damage to Kitsunoh's next switch in, C. force a Perish Body proc or D. trap a setup sweeper. These almost always force a switch, either afterwards or in anticipation of Encore (the latter of which being effective counterplay against this set). On Scarf sets, the combination of Encore and Trick in Kitsunoh's moveset allows for interesting mind games on whether to switch in a mon to avoid Encore, running the risk of attaching a Scarf to another mon.
• Perish Body allows Kitsunoh to become an obstacle for physical attackers without tacking on much physical bulk. It enables emergency stops against physical sweepers and can secure victory in the endgame depending on the opponent's final pokemon. Due to Kitsunoh's typing, many mons are forced to use contact moves that will proc Perish Body, and even if Kitsunoh dies in the process, the opponent is still placed on a 3-turn timer to live. If Kitsunoh survives, which is more possible thanks to its HP increase, it can choose to Strength Sap back to full, utilize another of its various utility tools, or simply U-turn out to avoid its Perish Count. With the addition of Encore, Kitsunoh has a great matchup into physical sweepers and endgame physical attackers.

sample sets

Kitsunoh @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Perish Body / Limber
Tera Type: Fairy / Water / Flying
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Shadow Strike
- U-turn
- Encore / Trick
- Will-O-Wisp / Defog / Meteor Mash

Kitsunoh @ Leftovers / Covert Cloak / Rocky Helmet
Ability: Perish Body / Limber
Tera Type: Fairy / Water
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Shadow Strike
- U-turn
- Encore / Taunt
- Will-O-Wisp / Strength Sap / Defog

(Anti Gambit) Kitsunoh @ Leftovers
Ability: Perish Body
EVs: 252 HP / 240 Atk / 16 Spe
Impish Nature
- Shadow Strike / Shadow Sneak
- Superpower
- Encore / Taunt
- Will-O-Wisp / Strength Sap

 

[Spammernoob]

Final Submission

+ 20 HP
+12 Atk
+16 Speed
+ Encore
+ Perish Body
- Iron Fist

• +20 HP makes standard Ghold Shadow Ball a roll, Equilibra Earth Power a very hard roll, Pult Shadow Ball a less damaging 2HKO, Lando-T Earthquake a roll, and in general is meant to provide Kitsunoh the ability to proc Perish Body or utilize utility without instantly dying.
• +12 Atk allows Shadow Strike on Boots Pivot Pult to be a 75% roll, Bulky Gholdengo an almost guaranteed 2HKO, and in general allows Kitsunoh to directly threaten prominent ghost types and boost its neutral hits while fishing for defense drops.
• +16 Speed outspeeds Cresc, Darkrai and Weavile un-Scarfed, allowing it to become the fastest utility mon over Cresc as well as hitting strong U-Turns on fast but frail Dark types. Scarfed, Kitsunoh outspeeds almost every mon available, while resisting most priority outside Shadow Sneak and Sucker Punch.
• Encore allows Kitsunoh to take significant advantage of its many immunities ( Normal/Fighting/Poison, poison status, spinning, paralysis w/ Limber) as well as its great defensive typing. It forces opponents into hitting moves that A. do no damage to Kitsunoh, B. do no damage to Kitsunoh's next switch in, C. force a Perish Body proc or D. trap a setup sweeper. These almost always force a switch, either afterwards or in anticipation of Encore (the latter of which being effective counterplay against this set). On Scarf sets, the combination of Encore and Trick in Kitsunoh's moveset allows for interesting mind games on whether to switch in a mon to avoid Encore, running the risk of attaching a Scarf to another mon.
• Perish Body allows Kitsunoh to become an obstacle for physical attackers without tacking on much physical bulk. It enables emergency stops against physical sweepers and can secure victory in the endgame depending on the opponent's final pokemon. Due to Kitsunoh's typing, many mons are forced to use contact moves that will proc Perish Body, and even if Kitsunoh dies in the process, the opponent is still placed on a 3-turn timer to live. If Kitsunoh survives, which is more possible thanks to its HP increase, it can choose to Strength Sap back to full, utilize another of its various utility tools, or simply U-turn out to avoid its Perish Count. With the addition of Encore, Kitsunoh has a great matchup into physical sweepers and endgame physical attackers.

sample sets

Kitsunoh @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Perish Body / Limber
Tera Type: Fairy / Water / Flying
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Shadow Strike
- U-turn
- Encore / Trick
- Will-O-Wisp / Defog / Meteor Mash

Kitsunoh @ Leftovers / Covert Cloak / Rocky Helmet
Ability: Perish Body / Limber
Tera Type: Fairy / Water
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Shadow Strike
- U-turn
- Encore / Taunt
- Will-O-Wisp / Strength Sap / Defog

(Anti Gambit) Kitsunoh @ Leftovers
Ability: Perish Body
EVs: 252 HP / 240 Atk / 16 Spe
Impish Nature
- Shadow Strike / Shadow Sneak
- Superpower
- Encore / Taunt
- Will-O-Wisp / Strength Sap

I will support this if you add a trapping move (Whirlpool/Fire Spin/Infestation or Block/Mean Look) because I am evil.