Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v4

[DaddyBuzzwole]

Tera blast joins the conversation for many pokemon. I do hope it's listed on the next survey.

it really doesn't. tera blast in and of itself has only broken a couple mons—eleki, volc, and arguably espathra (i argue it still wouldn't be acceptable without it but a significant number of people think otherwise and that's a valid and respectable opinion). there's talk of new tera blast sets breaking gouging fire, but there isn't even a community consensus on whether it's broken, much less how it's broken (i refuse to give my personal opinion on gouging fire at this time). everything else running tera blast is fine except for kyurem, which is broken for a million other reasons, and possibly dragapult, which is honestly just stupid and has been since last gen. i just don't think that it makes sense to ban an element of the meta that's perfectly fine on the vast majority of the things running it

 

[SittinGamer]

Tera Blast, I think, merits more looking at the "uncompetitive" side of the tiering argument vs "broken". It simply is objectively impossible to argue enough Pokemon are broken with Tera Blast vs the literal 1000 that aren't to call the move "broken." I do, think, however, there is merit to talking about the uncompetitive side, or at least how it factors into set variety, which IS a talking point for many suspect mons anyway. Personally, even strong users like Kingambit, Band Dragaput, or like idk Raging Bolt/Dragonite don't list high enough for me to want the move gone right now, but I do sympathize with the crowd that finds it always has had influence on unhealthy parts of the meta.

 

[DaddyBuzzwole]

One set I find cool is a mixed def Corv which with 140 spd EVs + SpD nature, 1v1s the infamous Sub-Tect Kyurem.

204 SpA Kyurem Freeze-Dry vs. 248 HP / 140+ SpD Corviknight: 99-117 (24.8 - 29.3%) -- guaranteed 5HKO after Leftovers recovery

for the record, 236 spdef and 24+ def is slightly more optimized, it gives the same spdef and one more defense than 248/120/140+ does. realistically it won't be changing any significant individual calcs, but you never know, maybe you'll survive a physical hit you wouldn't otherwise at some poing

 

[arnimacarni]

idk if its just me but i dont think its that bad of a thing that a tier is centralized. like i love gsc lax and adv ttar. if gen9 has to be centralized around gambit i dont mind it a bit

have a great saturday ppl im rn in a rave and nobody is worrying about kyurem or gouging fire here

 

[TURBODERP]

have a great saturday ppl im rn in a rave and nobody is worrying about kyurem or gouging fire here

Once people start passing out though, you'll bust out the Kingambit with 5 Fallen and sweep them all. THEY'LL LEARN.

 

[Roshino]

have a great saturday ppl im rn in a rave and nobody is worrying about kyurem or gouging fire here

those poor souls

 

[TheDuckChris]

Quickban thunder wave and static
36 hours til cycle 3 of olt closes

 

[ausma]

Barring Tera Blast, I believe Kyurem to be the most problematic and most suspect-worthy element of the tier, especially with its rise in OLT. Here's another shortform video explaining why I feel this way.

Let me know what you guys think is the most problematic or if you agree/disagree in any way!

 

[Pais]

Maybe unpopular opinion here but I don't think Kyurem should be banned.
We are in a moment of the meta (OLT) where literally the worst of the tier comes out.
The variance helps kyurem to be really good but it's actually true that is broken at the point that invalidates most defensive playstyles? I don't really think so. Most of people who are successful at OLT are running bulky off/balanced teams despite the increasing kyurem usage. New sets like sub freeze dry are a result of more fat structures rising in usage but it surely has less fire power than the loaded dice variant. Loaded dice kyurem is surely the best set in terms of wallbreaking but it fits only in HO structures that are not really consistent in current meta or in teams that usually result to be hazard weak. Removing kyurem also means in overpowering Gliscor, a mon who is really good in current Olt meta and that is needed since it gives to more balanced structures the viability that otherwise they would not have.

I'm more surprised nobody mentioned Kingambit or Gouging Fire who are way more oppressive, they can fit in a lot of archetypes and also need less skill to be used.

I think no tiering action should be taken until the end of olt cycles / first weeks of olt poffs

 

[Venuesaur]

Barring Tera Blast, I believe Kyurem to be the most problematic and most suspect-worthy element of the tier, especially with its rise in OLT. Here's another shortform video explaining why I feel this way.

Let me know what you guys think is the most problematic or if you agree/disagree in any way!

Yeah I've talked this to death but Kyurem is nuts and has been for awhile. Disproportionately affects bulkier styles and has no real defensive counterplay thanks to its perfect coverage with just two moves. Subtect sets are really stupid and are the nail in the coffin, essentially being a freeze spam wallbreaker. It's really silly and has been for awhile. A resuspect and ban of this joker would to the meta wonders.

Maybe unpopular opinion here but I don't think Kyurem should be banned.
We are in a moment of the meta (OLT) where literally the worst of the tier comes out.
The variance helps kyurem to be really good but it's actually true that is broken at the point that invalidates most defensive playstyles? I don't really think so. Most of people who are successful at OLT are running bulky off/balanced teams despite the increasing kyurem usage. New sets like sub freeze dry are a result of more fat structures rising in usage but it surely has less fire power than the loaded dice variant. Loaded dice kyurem is surely the best set in terms of wallbreaking but it fits only in HO structures that are not really consistent in current meta or in teams that usually result to be hazard weak. Removing kyurem also means in overpowering Gliscor, a mon who is really good in current Olt meta and that is needed since it gives to more balanced structures the viability that otherwise they would not have.

I'm more surprised nobody mentioned Kingambit or Gouging Fire who are way more oppressive, they can fit in a lot of archetypes and also need less skill to be used.

I think no tiering action should be taken until the end of olt cycles / first weeks of olt poffs

Respect your opinion but the problem with Kyurem isn't necessarily that it invalidates bulkier styles, but any bulky style facing into kyurem has to face the guessing game both of what set it is, where a wrong guess and/or getting unlucky can just lead to a loss pretty quickly. Subtect capitalizes off of wrong guesses as it can use sub to generate turns to either fish for freezes or just trade favourably with your team and be hard to get rid of.
I also don't see why something like OLT should stop a suspect here when Kyurem has been controversial since its last suspect. It's not a mon that flew under the radar at all, and its likely not a fad considering it has had the exact same problems being talked about since last suspect.

As well, the real reason I'm replying to this post is saying we shouldn't ban something because it'll make something else stronger is a bad argument. If gliscor is broken after, it'll get looked at. As well, there are already plenty of strong special or ice-coverage breakers to pressure Gliscor. I would much rather ban both of these if they both end up broken then ban neither if one of them is.

 

[Magcargo]

I'm more surprised nobody mentioned Kingambit or Gouging Fire who are way more oppressive, they can fit in a lot of archetypes and also need less skill to be used.

What archetypes does Gouging Fire fit on besides HO / Sun? I've been trying to build a few Balance / Bulky Offense teams with it and it feels very mediocre on those. I have seen it pop off on some stall teams that use it as a wincon, but the impression I get is that they are playing 5v6 until gouging is in prime condition to become the wincon, rather than a defensive piece on these teams.

 

[658Greninja]

I’d suspect Kyurem off the freeze chance alone. Cause what the fuck are you supposed to do if Kyurem lands a freeze on your Iron Crown for example?

No other mon in the tier can proc freeze just as easily as Kyurem

 

[party_po1s0n]

Genuine question why does no one talk about gambit as broken? There is so much talk about zama being broken but was it not originally introduced into the meta as a gambit counter? It has 30%+ usage in the tier. Feels completely centralizing. I know it was previously suspected but a mon that has that high usage and can win a 1v4 or 1v5 doesn't seem healthy at all to me. I can't imagine not using a gambit on my team specifically for those situations it just seems too good. Granted I'm an elo 1700 player at best so what do I know

Not to bring this back up after it just cooled down BUT I just wanted to point out that gambit and zama, the mon that is most used to counter, are the ONLY S ranked mons in the viability rankings. Seems kinda unhealthy...

 

[Rekka's Backend]

I’d suspect Kyurem off the freeze chance alone. Cause what the fuck are you supposed to do if Kyurem lands a freeze on your Iron Crown for example?

No other mon in the tier can proc freeze just as easily as Kyurem

If my poor Iron Crown and/or Tinkaton got anymore frozen I'd be fucking selling them as pokesicles. It's the entire reason I've swapped out Tusk for Corv a lot of the time due to it being able to at least stall out more Kyu sets if enough ice beams are ate to avoid Earth Powers.

 

[FayaWizard]

Not to bring this back up after it just cooled down BUT I just wanted to point out that gambit and zama, the mon that is most used to counter, are the ONLY S ranked mons in the viability rankings. Seems kinda unhealthy...

Viability does not equal brokeness. It just means the Pokemon is easily splashable and can fit on a wide variety of teams, bringing a useful array of traits a team.

In Kingambit's case, it blanks Psychics like Slowking Galar and resists Ghosts like Gholdengo or Dragapult, as well as fellow Dark-types like Meowscarada and Darkrai. Furthermore, it is a powerful tool to prevent sweepers from bowling over teams with its Sucker Punch, as well as being a powerful sweeper in its own right with Swords Dance and Supreme Overlord. Due to this combination of defensive and offensive utility, it fits on a wide range of teams from Balance to Hyper Offense. However, this does not mean it's broken. It is just very easy to slot on teams because it has a ton of useful traits packed into one that makes team building easier.

Similarly, Zamazenta has a massive list of benefits for a team. It's pretty fast, so it acts as pseudo speed control. With its high bulk and +1 Defense, it can act as a solid check to most Physical attackers, from Gouging Fire to Kingambit. It's Fighting-type allows it to take on Darks exceptionally well, meaning it can stifle tier king Kingambit, and with access to Body Press it can become a strong sweeper in its own right. Furthermore, its wide movepool allows for solid utility in Roar, or coverage to hit otherwise checks like Moltres with Stone Edge or Clefable with Heavy Slam, or ease its setup with a tanky Substitute. Once again, it is not broken. Just like Kingambit, it simply fits on a large list of teams, and thus is used a lot, and cements its place high in the Viability Rankings.

 

[ShizuOsaka]

Til this day, I still don't get why council decided that "yeah, we haven't had enough problems in OU already so we should unban some of those Uber mons."Having a bunch of Uber-grade mons that aren't nerfed being unbanned in a generation with tons of banned mons from day 1 is just so absurd.

Kyurem basically has 0 change from gen 8 to gen 9. It still does the same things, and it now has tera to add more coverage / tera out of its weaknesses / gain STAB for coverages. But yeah, it's now somehow being debated about whether it's "fair" or not despite spending gen 8 time in Uber.
Same with Darkai and Zamn. Imagine complaining about HO for the whole generation and then unban the exact mons that are used in HO a lot.

Probably the unbans that I can short of understand are Cindrace because of Libero/Protean nerf, Deoxyst-S and Deoxyst-D because Psychic typing sucks in general, and those two cannot do as much damage to the tier as the others.

Not to mention a lot of unnecessary "re-test" like Chien Pao and Volcarona.

 

[Eeveeto]

Kyurem basically has 0 change from gen 8 to gen 9.

It lost Roost. Thats a pretty big change. At this point I think its not enough to not make it broken, but its simply untrue that Kyurem had 0 changes, since Roost is very important move.

 

[ShizuOsaka]

It lost Roost. Thats a pretty big change. At this point I think its not enough to make it broken, but its simply untrue that Kyurem had 0 changes, since Roost is very important move.

Oh yeah I forgot about Roost. But yeah, SubDance Kyurem would be hella annoying with Roost.

 

[Finchinator]

Til this day, I still don't get why council decided that "yeah, we haven't had enough problems in OU already so we should unban some of those Uber mons."Having a bunch of Uber-grade mons that aren't nerfed being unbanned in a generation with tons of banned mons from day 1 is just so absurd.

Every single Pokemon reintroduced to OU was only done so after substantial community support from a survey, pages of discussion, and an internal vote. On top of this, the vast majority have remained OU — even if just one or two did, it would be a huge success, but the fact that we have Deoxys-S, Zamazenta, Darkrai, Kyurem, and Gliscor (on top of different cases that are more obvious) in the tier still while multiple of them survived suspect tests is telling. Even if you dislike a few of them in the tier right now (and I’m right there with you in Kyurem), this is how tiering in a community oriented system is intended. It’s the proper way to handle it ultimately.

Kyurem basically has 0 change from gen 8 to gen 9.

!dt Roost

This isn’t to mention the power creep and speed tiers around it changing a great deal + it wasn’t even banned via suspect test initially, so it very clearly was the right call to allow it if it didn’t get banned via suspect. Anything else would be abuse of power from the council.

Same with Darkai and Zamn. Imagine complaining about HO for the whole generation and then unban the exact mons that are used in HO a lot.

I implore you to take a step back and look at popular teams with these Pokemon and their roles. Zamazenta is one of the best Pokemon at containing certain offensive structures — HO would be far better without it in the tier.

Not to mention a lot of unnecessary "re-test" like Chien Pao and Volcarona.

Calling Volcarona retest unnecessary when the community didn’t get a fair say the first time and a ton changed within the metagame is silly and revisionist history. Go back and see how things were when it was first banned. The fact that this is even a part of this post is baffling.

 

[ShizuOsaka]

Every single Pokemon reintroduced to OU was only done so after substantial community support from a survey, pages of discussion, and an internal vote. On top of this, the vast majority have remained OU — even if just one or two did, it would be a huge success, but the fact that we have Deoxys-S, Zamazenta, Darkrai, Kyurem, and Gliscor (on top of different cases that are more obvious) in the tier still while multiple of them survived suspect tests is telling. Even if you dislike a few of them in the tier right now (and I’m right there with you in Kyurem), this is how tiering in a community oriented system is intended. It’s the proper way to handle it ultimately.

!dt Roost

This isn’t to mention the power creep and speed tiers around it changing a great deal + it wasn’t even banned via suspect test initially, so it very clearly was the right call to allow it if it didn’t get banned via suspect. Anything else would be abuse of power from the council.

I implore you to take a step back and look at popular teams with these Pokemon and their roles. Zamazenta is one of the best Pokemon at containing certain offensive structures — HO would be far better without it in the tier.

Calling Volcarona retest unnecessary when the community didn’t get a fair say the first time and a ton changed within the metagame is silly and revisionist history. Go back and see how things were when it was first banned. The fact that this is even a part of this post is baffling.

Whatever you may say. I'm just tired of this metagame.
Every single thing is either some short of speed demon or going in full bulk. Having Zamazenta "check" those things you mention almost feels like a cheat code in itself. Also for most of the "balance" teams I have found, it's a core with 3-4 bulky mons that are designated to take hit, and 2 other mons as wincon.
Either you yeet the entire stuffs to the garbage bin or keep things as it should be, because there is no point in salvaging such a messy metagame anymore.

 

[Callmeyeshua]

Yeah I've talked this to death but Kyurem is nuts and has been for awhile. Disproportionately affects bulkier styles and has no real defensive counterplay thanks to its perfect coverage with just two moves. Subtect sets are really stupid and are the nail in the coffin, essentially being a freeze spam wallbreaker. It's really silly and has been for awhile. A resuspect and ban of this joker would to the meta wonders.


Respect your opinion but the problem with Kyurem isn't necessarily that it invalidates bulkier styles, but any bulky style facing into kyurem has to face the guessing game both of what set it is, where a wrong guess and/or getting unlucky can just lead to a loss pretty quickly. Subtect capitalizes off of wrong guesses as it can use sub to generate turns to either fish for freezes or just trade favourably with your team and be hard to get rid of.
I also don't see why something like OLT should stop a suspect here when Kyurem has been controversial since its last suspect. It's not a mon that flew under the radar at all, and its likely not a fad considering it has had the exact same problems being talked about since last suspect.

As well, the real reason I'm replying to this post is saying we shouldn't ban something because it'll make something else stronger is a bad argument. If gliscor is broken after, it'll get looked at. As well, there are already plenty of strong special or ice-coverage breakers to pressure Gliscor. I would much rather ban both of these if they both end up broken then ban neither if one of them is.

Isn't this applicable to most of the offensive threats in this gens tier? I don't see how this is any different from a team randomly getting blanked by like...taunt Roaring Moon. Unless you run full stall the offensive threats in this tier will always have a set that will sweep you unless you take it out before it sets up or is in a winning position. I don't see how Kyurem is any more or less of a problem with this logic than Gouging, Ogre, etc. Subtect is the new hotness but its definitely has enough answers and stopgaps where its not even an auto win against the teams its supposed to prey on. If you get frozen thats unlucky but thats pokemon. its a hax ass, luck based game inherently.

 

[DaddyBuzzwole]

Isn't this applicable to most of the offensive threats in this gens tier? I don't see how this is any different from a team randomly getting blanked by like...taunt Roaring Moon. Unless you run full stall the offensive threats in this tier will always have a set that will sweep you unless you take it out before it sets up or is in a winning position. I don't see how Kyurem is any more or less of a problem with this logic than Gouging, Ogre, etc. Subtect is the new hotness but its definitely has enough answers and stopgaps where its not even an auto win against the teams its supposed to prey on. If you get frozen thats unlucky but thats pokemon. its a hax ass, luck based game inherently.

have you considered that, rather than this meaning kyurem isn't a problem, this could mean that the other mons you mentioned are problems?

 

[Callmeyeshua]

have you considered that, rather than this meaning kyurem isn't a problem, this could mean that the other mons you mentioned are problems?

The whole gen is a problem (offensively) by proxy of tera existing in my opinion. But its obviously its not going any where so while yes kyurem is a problem and so are those others, I don't really see what makes Kyurem such an outlier. It has a lot of sets. All of them have answers. Now your team may not have that answer, but I don't see how that is different from your team being weak a rogue gouging set, or to take a less obviously broken option some teams will simply have no way of dealing with a tera'd Garg. And ironically that can beat teams by itself wayyyyyyyy more often than any kyurem I've EVER seen.

I think people just latch onto whatever fotm offensive thing thats en vogue and say its broken, rinse and repeat. the subtect set isn't some unbeatable monolith and requires an entire team to be built around it usually. If thats the set thats breaking the camels back IDK. I'm only like 1700 but I don't have much issue with that set at all.

 

[Alternator]

Whatever you may say. I'm just tired of this metagame.
Every single thing is either some short of speed demon or going in full bulk. Having Zamazenta "check" those things you mention almost feels like a cheat code in itself. Also for most of the "balance" teams I have found, it's a core with 3-4 bulky mons that are designated to take hit, and 2 other mons as wincon.
Either you yeet the entire stuffs to the garbage bin or keep things as it should be, because there is no point in salvaging such a messy metagame anymore.

I say this without sarcasm - you sound like you'd be much happier with the lower tiers, where the extremes aren't nearly so extreme. Try UU, where Lokix - a first route bug! - is one of the primary gatekeepers.

 

[Karmazz]

I want to echo the above post, too many people refuse to branch out into other tiers. I think this comes from the idea that lower tiers are inferior, when they’re actually just a different group of mons to use with a different meta. There’s nothing making you only play ou, if you don’t like it try something else! I personally don’t mind ou but branching out and trying uu, ru, natdex, and oldgens keeps the game fresh for me.