Welcome to Smogon! Take a moment to read the Introduction to Smogon for a run-down on everything Smogon, and make sure you take some time to read the global rules.
chilling water would probably see more use if it wasn't pitifully weak, 50 base power is pathetic considering its secondary effect is strictly worse than that of scald's. even then you don't really like having to run chilling water unless you really needed a mon to sit on the (now banned) bax and gouge. it's probably the most undercooked move that's come out of this generation
chilling water would probably see more use if it wasn't pitifully weak, 50 base power is pathetic considering its secondary effect is strictly worse than that of scald's. even then you don't really like having to run chilling water unless you really needed a mon to sit on the (now banned) bax and gouge. it's probably the most undercooked move that's come out of this generation
Also semi-unrelated question, but why did I see no talk of Burning Balwark on GFire? If people were going to bitch about Pre-G8 Kings Shield forcing guessing games lest you get your attack halved, I would have expected something similar to happen here (see also the ubiquity of Kingambit, who is not always running Tera Fire, and probably appreciates burns the least out of any mon in the meta). Or are we just going to stack that on the 'if this thing was allowed to stay, this is another way it would have innovated/mutated' pile?
Bulwark is a cracked move but everything else about Gouging Fire just had way more oomph to it; there’s no reason to run a variant of Protect on offensive variants when you could opt for recovery on DD or vital coverage. If it didn’t have DD though I’m fairly certain it would’ve been far more noticed.
Also semi-unrelated question, but why did I see no talk of Burning Balwark on GFire? If people were going to bitch about Pre-G8 Kings Shield forcing guessing games lest you get your attack halved, I would have expected something similar to happen here (see also the ubiquity of Kingambit, who is not always running Tera Fire, and probably appreciates burns the least out of any mon in the meta). Or are we just going to stack that on the 'if this thing was allowed to stay, this is another way it would have innovated/mutated' pile?
defensive gouging fire popped up a couple times in OLT but it never really gained that much traction simply because it's better and easier to fit on teams when used as an offensive sweeper, and as a defensive fire type you're generally better off just using moltres instead. it's not bad but it just seems like a waste on a pokemon that drops most physical walls after 1 turn of setup
Offense has more tools vs this than defense does. Besides that, we're IN an offensive meta. If the meta shifts towards defensive, in what universe is this a bad thing? Palafin's BU set was a defensive team's nightmare. I don't know why people are STILL coming back to this topic, and the general topic of unbans from Ubers when we still have problems to look into first.
The idea of testing Fin again isn't the worst, but the timing isn't right.
idk I just got back to 1300s and low ladder doesn’t use HO so idrk what it looks like rn. Palafin has a lot of answers but being forced to run those answers isn’t ideal, so I think it would be restrictive on the meta.
I've been playing a bit once again hovering around my regular 1600 shitter range and the tier feels smoother to play compared to before since recent kicks, though Kyurem being around is still a massive mistake.
After playing casually for a week or so here are my fresh thoughts in no particular order:
1) Kyurem needs to go. I don't think this one is controversial in the slightest - It ticks all boxes: match-up fishy/unpredictable as fuck, can end a game on the spot, hax-fest, even its regular sets are really restrictive to answer, and unconventional sets feed off supposed counters.
2) People are sleeping SO HARD on banded Zama it's crazy. Once people start running it, it'll also become unpredictable and back in contention for a possible suspect. Demented stat stick goes woof
3) Gliscor is still public enemy numero uno (or dos until Kyurem is out). I have never seen a single mon warp every single game around it so much. Even regular utility sets are a tank that can only be dealt with by means of one-shot, can never be statused or worn down by hazards because poison heal neutralizes SR damage. Then you misread the set and it's SD and you're fucked lol
4) Dragapult's sets are so varied now that it triggers my anxiety every time I see them in preview. Really difficult to read the set. Wisp, band, specs, all of them capable of pivoting. Annoying mf
5) I feel vindicated because people are finally realizing that Garganacl is strong as a motherfucker. Gary is way more common than earlier this gen.
6) Wtf is up with this Palafin talk don't give them ideas
7) Kingambit has successfully brainwashed us and it will follow us in this tier to hell and beyond. The greatest cheatermon of all, all hail encore and random fighting coverage to kneecap him before he can give us heart attacks in 4v1 situations
It's quite disappointing to see that we've come back to Palafin unban discussion. AK made a great post months ago that most probably forgot, but I'll pick up the mantle this time. Let's walk through how, like many other mons that the community has already banned from this tier, Palafin has no defined counterplay.
Band sets under rain and boots pivot sets are probably the tamer and more balanced sets that may offer the positive benefits of having more priority and what not. Those aren't the sets I have an issue with. I am going to be specifically talking about how BU+Taunt can work around basically all of its counterplay simply by using different tera types, information which your opponent will almost never be able to predict and prepare for. First, let's get on the same page:
BU Taunt OU (Palafin-Hero) (F) @ Punching Glove
Ability: Zero to Hero
Tera Type: Fighting / Fire / Ghost / Poison
EVs: 248 HP / 204 SpD / 56 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Bulk Up
- Jet Punch
- Drain Punch
- Taunt / Substitute / Ice Punch
56 speed hits 250 to outpace modest bolt at 249 and that's all you really need. Adamant nature to capitalize on the massive base 160 attack, max hp rest in sdef. Simple. Maybe this can be optimized further, but this is good enough to crush OU.
Raging bolt, waterpon, rillaboom, grasspon, dondozo, hydrapple, and toxapex would all lose to BU Tera fighting + taunt + drain punch + jet punch. This mon is free to invest heavily into bulk since its main stab is priority, and you'd likely see enough sdef investment to shrug off even raging bolt damage factoring in drain punch recovery. Here's our scenario:
Turn 1: Palafin got an opening to Bulk Up and the opponent swaps into Raging Bolt with booster intact. Now it's +1/+1 healthy palafin vs booster SpA healthy raging bolt.
Turn 2: Palafin uses Tera and Bulks up again as raging bolt attacks:
252+ SpA Protosynthesis Raging Bolt Dragon Pulse vs. 248 HP / 204 SpD Tera Fighting Palafin-Hero: 186-220 (46.1 - 54.5%) -- 59% chance to 2HKO
252+ SpA Protosynthesis Raging Bolt Thunderclap vs. 248 HP / 204 SpD Tera Fighting Palafin-Hero: 154-183 (38.2 - 45.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Won't kill unless absolute max roll both, so palafin is safe to Drain Punch the next turn:
Turn 3: Palafin uses Drain Punch and survives whatever Raging Bolt does next.
Turn 4: Palafin can safely Jet Punch which outspeeds Thunderclap and eliminate Raging Bolt, regardless of whether or not it Tera Fairy'd the previous turn. The only difference will be Palafin's health at the end being lower if the opponent used tera, but it will still be +2/+2 with Stab Jet Punch prio and potentially sweep from here.
(If Bolt did not tera 81.3+32.2 kills. If Bolt did tera 40.6+64.7 kills.)
No predictions, damage ranges, or gimmicks here. You just tera in front of your best answer, beat it even if it tera's back, and go on to sweep a team.
Encore Wellspring is promising, but yet again, it also cannot switch in safely:
0+ Atk Punching Glove Palafin-Hero Drain Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Ogerpon-Wellspring: 114-135 (37.8 - 44.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 Atk Wellspring Mask Ogerpon-Wellspring Power Whip vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Tera Fighting Palafin-Hero: 229-270 (56.8 - 66.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0+ Atk Punching Glove Tera Fighting Palafin-Hero Drain Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Ogerpon-Wellspring: 171-202 (56.8 - 67.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (21.3 - 25% recovered)
It's not even safe to just attack because Palafin can just stay in and out damage+out heal.
Scald Alo vs Tera Fire Palafin btw
0 SpA Alomomola Scald vs. 248 HP / 204 SpD Tera Fire Palafin-Hero: 78-92 (19.3 - 22.8%) -- possible 5HKO
+2 0+ Atk Punching Glove Tera Fire Palafin-Hero Drain Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Alomomola: 164-193 (30.7 - 36.1%) -- 50.7% chance to 3HKO (20.3 - 24% recovered)
Only needs 2 Bulk ups to out heal scald damage lmao. We'd need to go back to Chilling Water or Tickle...until Palafin decides to use Sub over Taunt.
Tera Fire can foil wisp pult, sinistcha, and Scald Alo, Tera Ghost+Taunt can beat out even Idef Roar zama, and Poison can handle Primarina, Toxapex, Pecharunt, Amoonguss, whatever else we want to pretend would work. Dragon Tail dnite is probably the best check to this set...until people feel like slotting in Ice Punch over Taunt.
We just finished banning Gouging Fire, a pokemon that wanted hazard control and had offensive/defensive checks on paper but could work around them and snowball with a huge variety of tera sets+DD, to the point that it had no defined counterplay. Are we really dumb enough to unban another Uber that wants hazard control but has a huge variety of tera sets+BU+Stab Priority to get around its checks and snowball out of control to the point where it has no defined counterplay? Again??
We already decided to lock ourselves into a cycle of banning the next strongest tera abuser every few months, we really don't need to shoot ourselves in the foot by undoing our minimal progress and dropping the next strongest tera abuser instead of banning it.
chilling water would probably see more use if it wasn't pitifully weak, 50 base power is pathetic considering its secondary effect is strictly worse than that of scald's. even then you don't really like having to run chilling water unless you really needed a mon to sit on the (now banned) bax and gouge. it's probably the most undercooked move that's come out of this generation
All of our problems could be solved over night if we weren't an occupied nation tier.
im curious to see what next week brings. I know Kyurem sentiment is strong but it appears there is also great interest in alternative strategies. I'd rather we focus on tera blast personally, and I'd thought Palafin support had died a few months ago. But I guess I am wrong. Finch posted and isn't sure if he wants to move onto a suspect or possibly another survey. I do think removing GP didn't change the game a whole lot other than one less threat and I support moving swiftly into whatever the next thing we're doing is.
Love react for a kyurem test- haha react for palafin retest - wow react for tera blast. sad react for others :)
I'm going to step in here and just say that Palafin should not be discussed anymore for the time being, as this discussion is really cyclical and not really amounting to much more new discussion. The council has other priorities in mind and the tier is not really in a good state to consider retests. Rest assured, it is being discussed, and that's all that's to be said. Let's move on please; thanks!
I agree with other commenters that should be the next mon suspected. Whether it's fishing for freezes with SubTect or exploiting its unmatched set diversity to catch the opponent by surprise, Kyurem is simply not a healthy presence in the meta.
The main issue is that there's insufficient overlap in counterplay between checks to physical and special Kyurem sets. For example, since AV Iron Crown and Scizor check Special and SubTect variants, they tend to be go-to switch-ins for Kyurem. But if you bring them in on a set like DDance Tera Blast Electric/Ground/Fire, you now lose your fat steel and are facing a bosted Kyurem. This will probably cost you the game. On the other hand, who is going to switch their Zama in on Kyurem expecting DDance when it might hit you with a Spa-invested Ice Beam? Kyurem takes advantage of its unpredictability to the fullest in ways that can easily turn the tide of the game.
The second issue is SubTect's unparalleled ability to take advantage of Freeze, which is arguably one of the more uncompetitive mechanics in Pokemon. Against fatter teams packing the likes of Tera Garg or AV Glowking, the SubTect Kyurem gameplan is simply to Sub up and fish for Freezes. This seems uncompetitive to me. Furthermore, you start to have a serious problem when the answers to SubTect, like Iron Crown, can be easily preyed upon by Tera DDance.
I do believe we may need more tiering action, but I don't think early next week is the play. Players like veti have already indicated they will vote DNB on principle given the OU Council wouldn't be giving players ample time to try to adapt to Kyurem after Gouging Fire's ban, and there is reason to believe that physical HO will be a lot weaker with how oppressive Gouging Fire was in general, meaning there should be more room for counterplay against other threats such as Kyurem, even if that counterplay ends up not being enough. A re-suspect of Kyurem that happens too early runs the risk of it having yet another DNB verdict, which will punt further potential tiering Kyurem action to maybe half a year later, and I don't believe that would be ideal. Therefore, I conclude that the best course of action is to wait a few more weeks.
I do believe we may need more tiering action, but I don't think early next week is the play. Players like veti have already indicated they will vote DNB on principle given the OU Council wouldn't be giving players ample time to try to adapt to Kyurem after Gouging Fire's ban, and there is reason to believe that physical HO will be a lot weaker with how oppressive Gouging Fire was in general, meaning there should be more room for counterplay against other threats such as Kyurem, even if that counterplay ends up not being enough. A re-suspect of Kyurem that happens too early runs the risk of it having yet another DNB verdict, which will punt further potential tiering Kyurem action to maybe half a year later, and I don't believe that would be ideal. Therefore, I conclude that the best course of action is to wait a few more weeks.
I'm of the opinion that if another tiering survey is done and Kyurem recieves unexpectedly high scores from the qualified playerbase, it should be suspected, but otherwise waiting on action is the right call. Finch has indicated there is a chance at a survey after this weekend, so it's a distinct possibility.
I do believe we may need more tiering action, but I don't think early next week is the play. Players like veti have already indicated they will vote DNB on principle given the OU Council wouldn't be giving players ample time to try to adapt to Kyurem after Gouging Fire's ban, and there is reason to believe that physical HO will be a lot weaker with how oppressive Gouging Fire was in general, meaning there should be more room for counterplay against other threats such as Kyurem, even if that counterplay ends up not being enough. A re-suspect of Kyurem that happens too early runs the risk of it having yet another DNB verdict, which will punt further potential tiering Kyurem action to maybe half a year later, and I don't believe that would be ideal. Therefore, I conclude that the best course of action is to wait a few more weeks.
Literally every time i see you post something about a suspect in this thread or in a suspect test it's always the most doomer-ass shit imaginable. I really don't think holding off because of 1 notable player saying that they'll vote dnb on kyurem is valid. Obv council will do whatever they'll do, either starting a suspect or holding a survey, but this is a very pessimistic way of looking at tiering. If something is broken, it should be suspected and we should ask for a suspect. I do not care how much time has past between a previous suspect and the next one, bar if literally one of the most metagame defining mons are banned (i.e, stuff like kingambit/zama/gholdengo), and frankly, neither should you. If you think something is broken, you are going to be way more productive actually arguing that something is broken and combatting dnb points then you are when you're begging for moderation. There are cases where moderation is the right call; kyurem has shown itself to not be one of them. Kyurem has been controversial since before its first suspect and narrowly avoided getting banned because of really bad arguments concerning its ability to counterplay rain. It has not gotten better since then, in fact its previous second best check was banned and its best check has gotten worse then ever. Volcarona going alone should be enough to trigger another suspect, considering it was one of the only defensive counterplay we had for it (and even then it was a) broken as fuck, and b) woefully insufficient). This is ignoring that kyurem's set diversity has exploded since its previous suspect, and that it has increasingly been able to use things like tera blast and tera to be even better at abusing fat teams. You're argument that Gouging Fire leaving makes physical HO worse has me scratching my head because you only list people having more counterplay against kyurem now in the abstract. You fail to realize that Gouging Fire was #19 in usage, which is fairly low for a mon that was banned (i.e, it was absolutely not nearly on every team, or even every ho team, which was really where it fit). You similarly fail to realize that Kyurem has no defensive counterplay outside of, GKing which it can easily get around thanks to its billion sets and subtect, or steels, which are great but also can get frozen or really just hate Earth Power. If you actually want to get Kyurem banned, you're better served by arguing that it's broken and debunking the bad anti-ban arguments, rather then citing one council member being dnb and asking to wait. if you want Kyurem gone, actually ask for it.
if kyurem survives a second suspect test, i urge the council to quickban pressure as a workaround. the only other casualties for that are the deoxys forms and frankly i'd rather see them go than kyurem stay. yes, this would be a blatant abuse of power and go against tiering philosophy, but getting kyurem out of here is more important than democracy or protocol
Literally every time i see you post something about a suspect in this thread or in a suspect test it's always the most doomer-ass shit imaginable. I really don't think holding off because of 1 notable player saying that they'll vote dnb on kyurem is valid. Obv council will do whatever they'll do, either starting a suspect or holding a survey, but this is a very pessimistic way of looking at tiering. If something is broken, it should be suspected and we should ask for a suspect. I do not care how much time has past between a previous suspect and the next one, bar if literally one of the most metagame defining mons are banned (i.e, stuff like kingambit/zama/gholdengo), and frankly, neither should you. If you think something is broken, you are going to be way more productive actually arguing that something is broken and combatting dnb points then you are when you're begging for moderation. There are cases where moderation is the right call; kyurem has shown itself to not be one of them. Kyurem has been controversial since before its first suspect and narrowly avoided getting banned because of really bad arguments concerning its ability to counterplay rain. It has not gotten better since then, in fact its previous second best check was banned and its best check has gotten worse then ever. Volcarona going alone should be enough to trigger another suspect, considering it was one of the only defensive counterplay we had for it (and even then it was a) broken as fuck, and b) woefully insufficient). This is ignoring that kyurem's set diversity has exploded since its previous suspect, and that it has increasingly been able to use things like tera blast and tera to be even better at abusing fat teams. You're argument that Gouging Fire leaving makes physical HO worse has me scratching my head because you only list people having more counterplay against kyurem now in the abstract. You fail to realize that Gouging Fire was #19 in usage, which is fairly low for a mon that was banned (i.e, it was absolutely not nearly on every team, or even every ho team, which was really where it fit). You similarly fail to realize that Kyurem has no defensive counterplay outside of, GKing which it can easily get around thanks to its billion sets and subtect, or steels, which are great but also can get frozen or really just hate Earth Power. If you actually want to get Kyurem banned, you're better served by arguing that it's broken and debunking the bad anti-ban arguments, rather then citing one council member being dnb and asking to wait. if you want Kyurem gone, actually ask for it.
veti is actually not even an OU Council member. veti may be 1 person, but if he/she/they will vote DNB on principle for the reason he provided, there will be others who do so too as they believe the OU Council is violating standard Suspect protocol in doing so. I understand you REALLY hate Kyurem, but I'm only trying to ensure we don't waste time on a Suspect test that ends with a DNB when we could start the test later and have a higher chance of booting Kyurem in 3-4 weeks. Kyurem is controversial for a reason, and it's because there isn't this massive consensus that it's broken like you think there is.
veti is actually not even an OU Council member. veti may be 1 person, but if he will vote DNB on principle for the reason he provided, there will be others who do so too as they believe the OU Council is violating standard Suspect protocol in doing so. I understand you REALLY hate Kyurem, but I'm only trying to ensure we don't waste time on a Suspect test that ends with a DNB when we could start the test later and have a higher chance of booting Kyurem in 3-4 weeks. Kyurem is controversial for a reason, and it's because there isn't this massive consensus that it's broken like you think there is.
veti's not a "he", either. if you're going to cite other people's opinions you should at the very least know enough about said people to refer to them with the right pronouns. otherwise it looks like you're just parroting what other people are saying instead of actually interacting with them and getting to know where they're coming from. for the record, veti's been anti-ban on kyurem for a while and i'm not sure her opinion would change if the kyurem suspect were held later rather than sooner
There’s a lot of issues with SV rn and kyurem is for sure the most major issues for the tier rn. In most tiers on Smogon, it’s presence would be enough for a qb vote but since ou is generally more open to playerbase input it’s going to be a suspect. Thinking the kyurem test is “too fast” when it’s been complained about by the playerbase for months atp is just being ignorant of the views of the people playing the tier
I do believe we may need more tiering action, but I don't think early next week is the play. Players like veti have already indicated they will vote DNB on principle given the OU Council wouldn't be giving players ample time to try to adapt to Kyurem after Gouging Fire's ban, and there is reason to believe that physical HO will be a lot weaker with how oppressive Gouging Fire was in general, meaning there should be more room for counterplay against other threats such as Kyurem, even if that counterplay ends up not being enough. A re-suspect of Kyurem that happens too early runs the risk of it having yet another DNB verdict, which will punt further potential tiering Kyurem action to maybe half a year later, and I don't believe that would be ideal. Therefore, I conclude that the best course of action is to wait a few more weeks.
I feel like this take kind of misses the whole point of suspects. If the community sentiment is that a mon is a problem in the current meta, it’s suspected, plain and simple. I wouldn’t mind another survey to get some fresh results on Kyurem before a suspect. But the idea that “if we wait a few weeks, some people might switch their vote from DNB to Ban” is just not how things are done.
Also, how many people (besides Veti) have actually said that they would vote DNB for those reasons? Keep in mind that many influential players like Ausma, Pikacross, and others have expressed strong BAN sentiments.
I feel like this take kind of misses the whole point of suspects. If the community sentiment is that a mon is a problem in the current meta, it’s suspected, plain and simple. I wouldn’t mind another survey to get some fresh results on Kyurem before a suspect. But the idea that “if we wait a few weeks, some people might switch their vote from DNB to Ban” is just not how things are done.
Also, how many people (besides Veti) have actually said that they would vote DNB for those reasons? Keep in mind that many influential players like Ausma, Pikacross, and others have expressed strong BAN sentiments.
It is more well-liked than nearly every pro-ban Kyurem post in recent times, and Storm Zone notably gave veti's post a love, meaning he would almost surely vote DNB if not enough time is given for players to adapt/innovate.
(tera water)
should be the next mon suspected. Whether it's fishing for freezes with SubTect or exploiting its unmatched set diversity to catch the opponent by surprise, Kyurem is simply not a healthy presence in the meta.
