Project Old Gen Hackmons Megathread

[Cazenovia]

‎ ‎ ‎ ‎ ‎ RBY Pure Hackmons Viability Rankings ‎ ‎ ‎ ‎ ​

Following the discovery that RBY PH should be played at level 255 and new strategies discovered within the community, I think it's time that the VR gets an update. In this post I'm hoping to share my opinion on what the RBY Pure Hackmons VR should look like, as well as providing a full setpedia and basic analyses for each Pokemon in the VR. Most of these changes were made when theorymonning over this past weekend - thank you Sheeplol for help with bouncing ideas! Without further ado, here's my personal viability rankings!

Electrode Rank
Electrode

A Rank
Chansey
Aerodactyl

B Rank
Gengar
Mewtwo

C Rank
Kangaskhan
Dodrio
Tauros

Do Not Use
Everything Else

Perhaps the biggest change to the metagame since the last VR is the discovery of Quick Attack strats, where a powerful Normal-type Pokemon such as Kangaskhan or Dodrio uses Quick Attack (the only positive priority move in the generation) to chip away the HP of opposing Electrodes, letting the Quick Attacker outspeed the opponent's Chanseys to reverse sweep. Indeed, all three of the new additions to my personal VR can serve as Quick Attackers. The other major change to the metagame is the level cap increase to 255, which serves as a nerf to Chansey, who now gets 7HKO'd by Seismic Toss instead of an 8HKO, and a nerf to Electrode, as now its speed is capped at 999, which can be reached by every Pokemon with a speed stat above 50 (aka everything on the VR except for Chansey) after just one Agility. For an explanation of why I put every Pokemon in the tier I did, see the setpedia/analysis section below.

‎ ‎ ‎ ‎ ‎ RBY Pure Hackmons Setpedia ‎ ‎ ‎ ‎ ​

Electrode Rank

Electrode
Level: 255
- Spore
- Agility
- Seismic Toss / Hi Jump Kick / Horn Drill / Fissure
- Seismic Toss / Hi Jump Kick / Horn Drill / Fissure

Electrode Analysis

Electrode is THE Pokemon that dictates how RBY Pure Hackmons is played, and it's easy to see why. Due to Gen 1 sleep mechanics, Spore is an incredibly broken move when paired with the fastest Pokemon in the generation, allowing for Electrode to put the opponent to sleep turn 1, use Agility turn 2, and slowly sweep through the other team using Seismic Toss or Horn Drill, making sure to Spore the opponent back to sleep whenever they wake up. As a result, Electrode is a mandatory lead on any serious RBY Pure Hackmons team and a majority (but not all) of RBY PH games are decided by the Electrode speedtie at the start of the match. Seismic Toss is the preferred attack of choice for Electrode as it deals consistent typeless damage and allows Electrode to slowly chip through every Pokemon in the meta, although running a OHKO move is a riskier option that lowers the chance of Electrode getting a 1/256 miss, but makes getting KOs more dependent on RNG and results in Electrode getting countered by one of Aerodactyl or Gengar. Hi Jump Kick is another possible option for Electrode, letting it 3HKO Chansey but at the cost of 90% accuracy and being walled by Gengar. Running two of the same move is recommended as it results in the move having infinite PP, which is often necessary for Electrode to beat teams with many Chanseys.

Despite the centralization of the meta around Electrode, the Pokemon is far from invincible, and there are three primary ways for players who lost the Electrode speedtie to come back and win the match. The first, as alluded to in the previous paragraph, is the 1/256 Spore miss. If Electrode misses a Spore, the opposing Pokemon can respond by using Spore themselves before setting themselves up to 999 speed and forcing another speedtie. The second method of beating Electrode is similar: running out Spore's PP by switching in and out between asleep and awake Pokemon. To counter this strategy, Electrode can theoretically run Spore in two moveslots, however Electrode then struggles with the limited PP of its attacking move. The final method of beating Electrode is through abusing Electrode's mediocre bulk through Quick Attack, the only positive priority attack in the generation. Teams that attempt this method of winning will run five Quick Attackers with the goal of chipping down Electrode in between Spores to knock out Electrode and then reverse sweep with the Quick Attacker.

Although running an Electrode lead is essentially mandatory in the metagame, running Electrode in non-lead spots is a fairly niche (but still viable) option that allows teams that won the first speedtie but lost their lead Electrode due to a lack of Spore PP to continue momentum and avoid losing the speed advantage against the opposing team. One other potential usage for Electrode could be as a Quick Attacker - although it has a pitiful base 50 attack, if it does manage to knock out the opponent's lead Electrode it at worst forces another speedtie and at best allows for a clean reverse sweep.

Calcs

Crit Rate: 27.34%
Lvl 255 Seismic Toss vs. Lvl 255 Electrode: 255-255 (31.5 - 31.5%) -- guaranteed 4HKO

Lvl 255 Electrode High Jump Kick vs. Lvl 255 Chansey: 568-668 (31.9 - 37.5%) -- 93.1% chance to 3HKO
Lvl 255 Electrode Quick Attack vs. Lvl 255 Electrode: 60-71 (7.4 - 8.7%) -- possibly the worst move ever

(for Electrode defensive calcs, see the Attacking Pokemon's calc folder)

A Rank

Chansey
Level: 255
- Spore
- Agility
- Seismic Toss / Horn Drill / Fissure
- Seismic Toss / Horn Drill / Fissure

Chansey Analysis

Chansey has the highest HP stat in the entire metagame, allowing for it to tank a whopping seven Seismic Tosses before fainting. This great bulk makes Chansey arguably the premier non-lead Pokemon in the metagame, useful maximizing the odds of getting a 1/256 Spore miss or using their bulk to stall out Spore PP through switches. Chansey's moveset is very straightforward as Seismic Toss is the strongest and most consistent damage option, with the OHKO moves serving as a riskier option if desired.

Apart from its high HP, the rest of Chansey's stats provide challenges for its ability to reverse sweep. Most notably, its speed stat is low enough that it requires two Agilities in order to reach the coveted 999 speed stat to speedtie Electrode, giving Electrode an extra turn to potentially wake up and still guarantee that it outspeeds Chansey to continue its sweep. Chansey also has a pitiful defense base stat of 5, giving it comparable physical bulk to Electrode, which makes it just as vulnerable as Electrode to Quick Attackers if Chansey is able to get to 999 speed and begin reverse sweeping.

Calcs

Lvl 255 Seismic Toss vs. Lvl 255 Chansey: 255-255 (14.3 - 14.3%) -- guaranteed 7HKO
(like Electrode, relevant calcs against Chansey will be in the attacking Pokemon's calc folder)

Aerodactyl
Level: 255
- Spore
- Agility / Quick Attack
- Hi Jump Kick / Drill Peck / Seismic Toss / Horn Drill / Fissure / Quick Attack
- Earthquake / Seismic Toss / Horn Drill / Fissure

Aerodactyl Analysis

As a Pokemon with the best defensive typing in the meta, a speed stat that is tied for second-best, and a strong attack stat, Aerodactyl rounds out the A tier as the third best Pokemon in the metagame in my opinion. With a resistance to Quick Attack and an immunity to Fissure, Aerodactyl can wall QAs while outspeeding or speedtying with every unboosted QA user and also force Fissure Electrode into switching out. If given the opportunity the counter sweep, Aerodactyl's Hi Jump Kick 3HKOs Chansey and its Earthquake 2HKOs Electrode and Gengar, though an Aerodactyl running that set could potentially run into PP issues, especially with HJK's 90% accuracy. Drill Peck is another option on Aerodactyl that provides increased damage against Mewtwo and Dodrio at the cost of 3HKOing Chansey instead of a 2HKO. Like the previous Pokemon, Seismic Toss and OHKO moves are also reasonable options on Aerodactyl, as they solidify Aerodactyl's poorer matchups against Mewtwo and other Aerodactyls. Aerodactyl's major flaw as a wall is its low HP stat, as it gets 4HKO'd by Seismic Toss, a significant downgrade compared to Chansey when fishing for 1/256s and running out Spore PP. Aerodactyl's mediocre special stat also means that it is vulnerable to Mewtwo's Psychic.

Another possible set for Aerodactyl is as a Quick Attacker. While it has the least powerful relevant QA in the meta, its high speed stat and good defensive typing give it a small niche as a Quick Attacker that will outspeed/speedtie every non-lead Pokemon that switches in except for Electrode if Aerodactyl is able to kill the lead Electrode. Aerodactyl's issues as a QAer are numerous, however. Its QA is only an 8HKO on Electrode, meaning that it will most likely require assistance from Kangaskhan or Dodrio for Aerodactyl to get the knock out. Like all Quick Attackers, it also suffers immensely from 4MSS, having to choose between giving up Agility or one of its two attacking slots in order to fit in QA. As a Quick Attacker, Aerodactyl also struggles in the matchup against a non-QA Aerodactyl, who can wall the opposing QAs without an issue.

Calcs

Crit Rate: 25.39%
Lvl 255 Seismic Toss vs. Lvl 255 Aerodactyl: 255-255 (28 - 28%) -- guaranteed 4HKO

Lvl 255 Aerodactyl Drill Peck vs. Lvl 255 Chansey: 626-736 (35.2 - 41.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Lvl 255 Aerodactyl Drill Peck vs. Lvl 255 Mewtwo: 237-279 (22.7 - 26.7%) -- 33.8% chance to 4HKO
Lvl 255 Aerodactyl Drill Peck vs. Lvl 255 Kangaskhan: 256-301 (24.6 - 29%) -- 99.9% chance to 4HKO
Lvl 255 Aerodactyl Drill Peck vs. Lvl 255 Dodrio: 278-327 (34.4 - 40.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Lvl 255 Aerodactyl Earthquake vs. Lvl 255 Electrode: 462-544 (57.1 - 67.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Lvl 255 Aerodactyl Earthquake vs. Lvl 255 Gengar: 503-592 (62.2 - 73.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Lvl 255 Aerodactyl Earthquake vs. Lvl 255 Mewtwo: 197-232 (18.9 - 22.2%) -- possible 5HKO
Lvl 255 Aerodactyl High Jump Kick vs. Lvl 255 Chansey: 886-1042 (49.8 - 58.6%) -- 99.8% chance to 2HKO
Lvl 255 Aerodactyl High Jump Kick vs. Lvl 255 Aerodactyl: 205-241 (22.5 - 26.4%) -- 19.2% chance to 4HKO
Lvl 255 Aerodactyl High Jump Kick vs. Lvl 255 Kangaskhan: 362-426 (34.9 - 41%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Lvl 255 Aerodactyl High Jump Kick vs. Lvl 255 Dodrio: 197-232 (24.3 - 28.7%) -- 99.4% chance to 4HKO
Lvl 255 Aerodactyl High Jump Kick vs. Lvl 255 Tauros: 325-382 (36.7 - 43.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Lvl 255 Aerodactyl Quick Attack vs. Lvl 255 Electrode: 93-110 (11.5 - 13.6%) -- possible 8HKO
Lvl 255 Aerodactyl Quick Attack vs. Lvl 255 Chansey: 209-246 (11.7 - 13.8%) -- possible 8HKO

Lvl 255 Electrode High Jump Kick vs. Lvl 255 Aerodactyl: 131-155 (14.3 - 17%) -- possible 6HKO
Lvl 255 Aerodactyl High Jump Kick vs. Lvl 255 Aerodactyl: 205-241 (22.5 - 26.4%) -- 19.2% chance to 4HKO
Lvl 255 Mewtwo High Jump Kick vs. Lvl 255 Aerodactyl: 211-249 (23.1 - 27.3%) -- 67.4% chance to 4HKO
Lvl 255 Mewtwo Psychic vs. Lvl 255 Aerodactyl: 436-513 (47.9 - 56.3%) -- 87.5% chance to 2HKO
Lvl 255 Aerodactyl Quick Attack vs. Lvl 255 Aerodactyl: 48-57 (5.2 - 6.2%) -- possibly the worst move ever
Lvl 255 Mewtwo Quick Attack vs. Lvl 255 Aerodactyl: 50-59 (5.4 - 6.4%) -- possibly the worst move ever
Lvl 255 Kangaskhan Quick Attack vs. Lvl 255 Aerodactyl: 68-80 (7.4 - 8.7%) -- possibly the worst move ever
Lvl 255 Dodrio Quick Attack vs. Lvl 255 Aerodactyl: 74-88 (8.1 - 9.6%) -- possibly the worst move ever
Lvl 255 Tauros Quick Attack vs. Lvl 255 Aerodactyl: 70-83 (7.6 - 9.1%) -- possibly the worst move ever

B Rank

Gengar
Level: 255
- Spore
- Agility
- Seismic Toss / Hi Jump Kick / Horn Drill / Fissure
- Seismic Toss / Hi Jump Kick / Horn Drill / Fissure

Gengar Analysis

Gengar is a very straightforward Pokemon. Its Ghost typing lets it be the only relevant Pokemon immune to Horn Drill and Quick Attack while its decent speed tier lets it outspeed and reverse sweep Chansey, Kangaskhan, and Dodrio. Its moveset is also very straightforward - Seismic Toss is Gengar's strongest move against most opposing Pokemon besides Chansey, while Hi Jump Kick has significantly worse matchups against all Pokemon except for Chansey and Kangaskhan. Gengar's biggest flaw is its speed - while faster than the "slow" Pokemon in the tier, when unboosted it gets outsped by both Aerodactyl and Mewtwo, two Pokemon that Gengar is very much afraid of as Aerodactyl's Earthquake and Mewtwo's Psychic or Earthquake both 2HKO Gengar. In addition, Tauros speedties an unboosted Gengar. In my opinion, despite Gengar's immunity to QA, its lower speed stat and losses to QA Aero and Mewtwo as well as speedtie with Tauros make Gengar an inferior QA wall to Aero on a majority of teams.

Calcs

Crit Rate: 21.48%
Lvl 255 Seismic Toss vs. Lvl 255 Gengar: 255-255 (31.5 - 31.5%) -- guaranteed 4HKO

Lvl 255 Gengar High Jump Kick vs. Lvl 255 Electrode: 145-171 (17.9 - 21.1%) -- possible 5HKO
Lvl 255 Gengar High Jump Kick vs. Lvl 255 Chansey: 655-770 (36.8 - 43.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Lvl 255 Gengar High Jump Kick vs. Lvl 255 Kangaskhan: 268-316 (25.8 - 30.4%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
Lvl 255 Gengar High Jump Kick vs. Lvl 255 Tauros: 239-282 (27 - 31.9%) -- guaranteed 4HKO

Lvl 255 Aerodactyl Earthquake vs. Lvl 255 Gengar: 503-592 (62.2 - 73.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Lvl 255 Mewtwo Earthquake vs. Lvl 255 Gengar: 519-610 (64.2 - 75.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Lvl 255 Mewtwo Psychic vs. Lvl 255 Gengar: 531-624 (65.7 - 77.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Mewtwo
Level: 255
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 208 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
- Spore
- Agility / Quick Attack
- Psychic / Hi Jump Kick / Horn Drill / Fissure / Quick Attack
- Psychic / Earthquake / Horn Drill / Fissure

Mewtwo Analysis

Despite being conventionally the best Pokemon in all of RBY, Mewtwo ends up ranked fifth on my personal VR. While its pros are immediately transparent - it's tied for the second fastest Pokemon and has the strongest attack with no downsides in the meta with its Psychic, Mewtwo unfortunately suffers from "jack of all trades, master of none" syndrome. While it's incredibly fast and hits incredibly hard, Mewtwo is still outsped by Electrode and is at the same speed tier and has roughly the same attack power as Aerodactyl, whose better typing gives it an edge over Mewtwo.
Mewtwo's primary niche over Aerodactyl is its better bulk for tanking non-QA attacks (including taking an extra hit from Seismic Toss) and its Psychic, which has a higher damage output than any of Aerodactyl's attacks on every Pokemon except for Chansey and opposing Mewtwos. Because Mewtwo's special stat at max EVs is above 999, its special EVs need to be lowered to 208 so that it can have a special stat of 999 and not roll over. For Mewtwo's attacking slots, it can run two Psychics for inifinite PP on its strongest move at the cost of having a slightly worse Chansey matchup, or Mewtwo can run Psychic and Hi Jump Kick to shore up its matchup with Chansey, although at the cost of having limited PP. Mewtwo can also run Earthquake to guarantee a 2HKO against Electrode and also improve its matchup against opposing Mewtwos who resist Psychic and HJK.

Similarly to Aerodactyl, Mewtwo can also serve a role as a fast Quick Attacker that hopes to outspeed/speedtie the Pokemon that comes in after Electrode faints. Mewtwo has a slightly stronger attack stat than Aerodactyl, but its lack of Normal STAB means that its QAs are still weaker than Kangaskhan and Dodrio and so should be reserved until the opposing Electrode is at low health so Mewtwo can be on the field when the opponent sends their next Pokemon out. QA Mewtwo also suffers from 4MSS, and has the unenviable choice of either losing Agility and subjecting Mewtwo to potentially unnecessary speedties, or giving up an attacking slot and not having infinite PP to attack.

Calcs

Crit Rate: 25.39%
Lvl 255 Seismic Toss vs. Lvl 255 Mewtwo: 255-255 (24.4 - 24.4%) -- guaranteed 5HKO

Lvl 255 Mewtwo Earthquake vs. Lvl 255 Electrode: 478-562 (59.1 - 69.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Lvl 255 Mewtwo Earthquake vs. Lvl 255 Chansey: 537-632 (30.2 - 35.5%) -- 32.2% chance to 3HKO
Lvl 255 Mewtwo Earthquake vs. Lvl 255 Mewtwo: 203-239 (19.4 - 22.9%) -- possible 5HKO
Lvl 255 Mewtwo High Jump Kick vs. Lvl 255 Chansey: 913-1074 (51.3 - 60.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Lvl 255 Mewtwo High Jump Kick vs. Lvl 255 Kangaskhan: 374-440 (36 - 42.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Lvl 255 Mewtwo High Jump Kick vs. Lvl 255 Tauros: 335-394 (37.8 - 44.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Lvl 255 Mewtwo Psychic vs. Lvl 255 Electrode: 368-433 (45.5 - 53.5%) -- 39.8% chance to 2HKO
Lvl 255 Mewtwo Psychic vs. Lvl 255 Chansey: 308-363 (17.3 - 20.4%) -- possible 5HKO
Lvl 255 Mewtwo Psychic vs. Lvl 255 Aerodactyl: 436-513 (47.9 - 56.3%) -- 87.5% chance to 2HKO
Lvl 255 Mewtwo Psychic vs. Lvl 255 Gengar: 531-624 (65.7 - 77.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Lvl 255 Mewtwo Psychic vs. Lvl 255 Kangaskhan: 536-631 (51.6 - 60.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Lvl 255 Mewtwo Psychic vs. Lvl 255 Dodrio: 436-513 (53.9 - 63.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Lvl 255 Mewtwo Quick Attack vs. Lvl 255 Electrode: 96-113 (11.8 - 13.9%) -- possible 8HKO
Lvl 255 Mewtwo Quick Attack vs. Lvl 255 Chansey: 216-254 (12.1 - 14.2%) -- possible 7HKO

Lvl 255 Aerodactyl Quick Attack vs. Lvl 255 Mewtwo: 79-94 (7.5 - 9%) -- possibly the worst move ever
Lvl 255 Mewtwo Quick Attack vs. Lvl 255 Mewtwo: 82-97 (7.8 - 9.3%) -- possibly the worst move ever
Lvl 255 Kangaskhan Quick Attack vs. Lvl 255 Mewtwo: 112-132 (10.7 - 12.6%) -- possible 8HKO
Lvl 255 Dodrio Quick Attack vs. Lvl 255 Mewtwo: 123-145 (11.8 - 13.9%) -- possible 8HKO

C Rank

Kangaskhan
Level: 255
- Spore
- Agility
- Quick Attack
- Seismic Toss / Hi Jump Kick

Kangaskhan Analysis

Kangaskhan is the premier Quick Attacker in the meta, powered off its 95 base attack with Normal STAB. With its solid bulk requiring 5 Seismic Tosses to KO, each Kangaskhan on a team can often get at least 2 Quick Attacks off before fainting, dealing ~33% damage to an opposing Electrode with each Kangaskhan (without factoring in crits). Kangaskhan works best against teams that do not include Aerodactyl or Gengar (such as the infamous 1 Electrode + 5 Chansey sample), as Kangaskhan's QAs can hit Electrodes for big damage without the opponent having any Pokemon that can both wall and outspeed Kanga at the same time. Conversely, if the opponent does run one of Aerodactyl or Gengar and is able to bring them in against Kangaskhan without being Spored, the Kangaskhan user is in a very bad position. Kangaskhan's primary objective is to force the opponent to bring out Chansey against it, as Kanga outspeeds unboosted Chansey and can Spore and setup to reverse sweep the opponent. Seismic Toss and HJK are strong options to use in the fourth moveslot to either give Kangaskhan a slightly better matchup against Gengar and Aerodactyl with the former, and an easier time knocking out Chansey with the latter.

Calcs

Crit Rate: 17.59%
Lvl 255 Seismic Toss vs. Lvl 255 Kangaskhan: 255-255 (24.5 - 24.5%) -- guaranteed 5HKO

Lvl 255 Kangaskhan High Jump Kick vs. Lvl 255 Chansey: 827-972 (46.5 - 54.6%) -- 63.1% chance to 2HKO
Lvl 255 Kangaskhan High Jump Kick vs. Lvl 255 Aerodactyl: 191-225 (20.9 - 24.7%) -- guaranteed 5HKO
Lvl 255 Kangaskhan High Jump Kick vs. Lvl 255 Kangaskhan: 338-398 (32.5 - 38.3%) -- 98.9% chance to 3HKO
Lvl 255 Kangaskhan High Jump Kick vs. Lvl 255 Tauros: 302-356 (34.1 - 40.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Lvl 255 Kangaskhan Quick Attack vs. Lvl 255 Electrode: 131-154 (16.2 - 19%) -- possible 6HKO
Lvl 255 Kangaskhan Quick Attack vs. Lvl 255 Chansey: 293-345 (16.4 - 19.4%) -- possible 6HKO
Lvl 255 Kangaskhan Quick Attack vs. Lvl 255 Mewtwo: 112-132 (10.7 - 12.6%) -- possible 8HKO

Dodrio
Level: 255
- Spore
- Agility
- Quick Attack
- Seismic Toss / Hi Jump Kick

Dodrio Analysis

Notice any similarities between Kangaskhan and Dodrio? The truth is that both Pokemon have a very similar niche, and a lot of what was previously said in regards to Kangaskhan applies to Dodrio too. Dodrio is a Quick Attacker that trades some HP (turning Seismic Toss into a 4HKO) and in return gets slightly more attack, slightly more speed, and the Flying type, which gives an immunity to Fissure and neutrality to Hi Jump Kick. Dodrio still faces many of the same problems though - it really struggles against teams with either Aerodactyl or Gengar and prefers to see teams consisting of just Chansey and Electrode. Dodrio's lower HP also hurts it ability to do damage - it has roughly a 50/50 chance of waking up in time to deal a second QA against Seismic Toss Electrode, though it does get some consolation in its better attack stat and higher crit rate. Dodrio's objective is to either force the opponent to bring out Chansey so that Dodrio can reverse sweep, or by dealing enough damage to Electrode so that the user's Mewtwo/Aerodactyl can finish Electrode off before reverse sweeping. Dodrio has options for its fourth move - since QA has a high 48 PP, Dodrio can use either Seismic Toss to help beat Aerodactyl and Gengar when at +2 speed and HJK helps Dodrio clear Chanseys faster.

Calcs

Crit Rate: 19.53%
Lvl 255 Seismic Toss vs. Lvl 255 Dodrio: 255-255 (31.5 - 31.5%) -- guaranteed 4HKO

Lvl 255 Dodrio High Jump Kick vs. Lvl 255 Chansey: 913-1074 (51.3 - 60.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Lvl 255 Dodrio High Jump Kick vs. Lvl 255 Aerodactyl: 211-249 (23.1 - 27.3%) -- 67.4% chance to 4HKO
Lvl 255 Dodrio High Jump Kick vs. Lvl 255 Kangaskhan: 374-440 (36 - 42.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Lvl 255 Dodrio High Jump Kick vs. Lvl 255 Tauros: 335-394 (37.8 - 44.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Lvl 255 Dodrio Quick Attack vs. Lvl 255 Electrode: 143-169 (17.6 - 20.9%) -- possible 5HKO
Lvl 255 Dodrio Quick Attack vs. Lvl 255 Chansey: 324-381 (18.2 - 21.4%) -- possible 5HKO
Lvl 255 Dodrio Quick Attack vs. Lvl 255 Mewtwo: 123-145 (11.8 - 13.9%) -- possible 8HKO

Tauros
Level: 255
- Spore
- Agility / Seismic Toss
- Quick Attack
- Seismic Toss

Tauros Analysis

Tauros is in a weird middle ground in terms of Quick Attackers. While it's not as fast as Mewtwo or Aerodactyl, not as strong as Dodrio, and doesn't have as high an HP stat as Kangaskhan, Tauros is a strong Quick Attacker with the extremely notable advantage of speedtying with Gengar. Like the pure Quick Attackers above it, Tauros's goal is to chip away at Electrode before it can get Spored, with the eventual goal of reverse sweeping after Electrode is knocked out. By getting a speedtie against Gengar, Tauros notably is only directly countered by Aerodactyl, allowing Tauros to potentially sweep a team consisting of Electrode + Gengar + 4 Chanseys. Despite this, Tauros's QAs are weaker than Dodrio and Tauros is less likely to get additional hits off than Kangaskhan, while not improving on the Aerodactyl matchup. Seismic Toss is a requirement for Tauros to defeat Gengar if it wins the speedtie, with the additional option of either running Agility to reach 999 speed or an additional Seismic Toss to help Tauros break through Chanseys more easily.

Calcs

Crit Rate: 21.48%
Lvl 255 Seismic Toss vs. Lvl 255 Tauros: 255-255 (28.8 - 28.8%) -- guaranteed 4HKO

Lvl 255 Tauros Quick Attack vs. Lvl 255 Electrode: 135-159 (16.7 - 19.6%) -- guaranteed 6HKO
Lvl 255 Tauros Quick Attack vs. Lvl 255 Chansey: 303-357 (17 - 20%) -- possible 5HKO
Lvl 255 Tauros Quick Attack vs. Lvl 255 Mewtwo: 115-136 (11 - 13%) -- possible 8HKO

Do Not Use

• Persian: If there was a D tier in this VR, Persian would be in it. While it does outspeed Gengar, it is significantly weaker than its Normal-type QA counterparts, to the point where there's little reason to run it over QA Aerodactyl or Mewtwo, both of which speedtie with Aero while Persian does not.
• Snorlax and MissingNo.: While Snorlax has the HP stat to live 6 Seismic Tosses and MissingNo. has the strongest Quick Attack in the meta, both are too slow to outspeed whatever Pokemon the opponent will send out after Electrode faints.
• Dragonite - Dragonite may have the highest attack stat in the meta and an immunity to Fissure, but it doesn't outspeed anything in the meta besides Chansey and just is too outclassed by Aerodactyl to be used
• Rhydon: Rhydon's Earthquake is powerful enough to OHKO Electrode. Too bad Rhydon can't outspeed anything.
• Everything Else: Every other Pokemon in RBY is either too slow to be effective or directly outclassed by another Pokemon. If you can think of a Pokemon with a niche that I've neglected to think of, please reply and let me know!

‎ ‎ ‎ ‎ ‎ RBY Pure Hackmons (No Pre-Status)‎ ‎ ‎ ‎ ‎
Sample Teams:​

I'd like to close this long analysis out by suggesting two new sample teams, ideally replacing the 2 Gengar + 2 Aerodactyl sample and the 2 Gengar + 3 Aerodactyl sample. The Electrode + 5 Chansey sample still holds up, though it does need to be updated so that the Pokemon are at level 255.

This sample team is very similar to the Electrode + 5 Chansey sample but replaces one of the Chanseys with Aerodactyl, which greatly greatly improves upon the matchup against Quick Attackers.

This sample team aims to use Kangaskhan to whittle down the opposing Electrode before KOing it and reverse sweeping with QA Mewtwo.

 

[Glory]

oras.
w2

a slightly modified version of a team RL made (I think, I can't be asked to go check)

w3

Not the exact version I brought in the game but it is better. Earth Power is used over sub since it helps with the matchup into the steels and generally the LO ray isn't clicking sub much. Quiver Dance is an option on the LO Ray to beat foul play phealers. Figure out the EV spreads yourself I can't be asked.

w4

Broken af Thundurus set. Once again, figure out the Slaking EVs yourself.

w5

Good team. Worked well in theory and in practice. Band Don is great but other movesets kinda suck, espeed trick gives a ton of flexibility that imo other movesets just don't have.

This team sucks don't use it.

I also built for RL this week since he's bad and can't build for himself.


The idea was to invade their home game 1 to provoke some anti-Metagross mon game 2 which would get killed by No Guard. Didn't work out in the game but won anyway so who cares.

ok meta thoughts

After thinking about it quite a bit I agree with NToTheN that mray is better than (or at least on par with) Giratina. Blasphemy, I know, but it's just that good. The only times I didn't bring this mon was when I brought stall and when I was passed something. As you can probably tell from my week 5 teams I think Taunt is really strong on Mega Ray, as it shuts down a lot without relying on sleep luck or any bullshit. The sheer versatility and deadliness that Ray has is almost unmatched within the metagame, and I think it's by far the premier offensive threat.


Best stags in the meta with no contest. I don't like Huge Power much but it's probably not the worst.


smash mid band good

 

[lag=bad]

Imma dump my hpl teams too since glory did it and they're cool.
week 1 - Pheal shaymin - love this team
week 3 g1 - we don't need to talk about this team. It was ok, but kinda iffy in a lot of places.
week 2 g2 - fun team, mray / sableye behind sub is really scary. Was a really fun game to play
week 2 - unused team - very cheesy team, was funky to build, didn't get to see it in action.
week 2 g1 - funny stag pdon, was not expecting fast ray, stuff happens.
week 3 - unused team - also very fun team, brought something standard because I was unsure of what excaliju was bringing, which ended up costing me.
week 3 - unused team - another unused team from w3, really liked this dialga set.
week 3 - unused team - I wrote a cool rmt on this one, had a lot of fun making and testing this.
week 4 - unused team - I know it says week 3, but I built this for week 4 to support my teammates
week 4 - unused team - an experiment with no wonder guards and iffy anti-sweepers. Use at your own risk
Other teams:
Pdon Spam! - Glad berry had a fun time using this, was really cool to watch the battle.
fun team I built for week 5
Will add any teams I built for people during playoffs as the weeks progress.

Really enjoyed playing, here are some thoughts on meta stuff from games or testing:
- Absurd. This thing is definitely the best sweeper in the tier by far, it is just so good even when you have specific counterplay for it. There are very few reliable checks, and those still lose to less common sets like coverage/mixed smash.
taunt - huge. I think magic bounce/magic coat will become much more common in the future given the amount of pokemon running taunt seen in this tournament. Taunt is definitely becoming a more common alternative to sleep on sweepers too, which is really fun since dark void sucks and I hate it.
Chatter - yeah it saw a decent amount of use this tournament, but I think I overestimated it's brokenness. Confusion is still great and cheesy and really annoying, but it isn't the end all of defensive hard stops to sweepers that you can splash. It does require at least a little bit of skill to time when you use it. Still great, but I think it hasn't ruined the meta in the way I thought it had.
Giratina - still the best pokemon in the format. All kinds of interesting sets are popping up, which is always great to see.
Poison Heal - actually surprised how much use this saw (and how much I found myself using it). But it's surprisingly good. Ph turning into bh is real It's a good counter to all the sleep around.
Stall - it's, shockingly, not bad. I've been seeing it a little in a couple test games with people, and the unique sets and pokemon that are used to support it are really cool to see. I definitely think this is an archetype that could see more use and experimentation in the future.

 

[q0rew89h]

https://pokepast.es/dfa714328f11661a
is this good?

 

[Guysmash]

https://pokepast.es/dfa714328f11661a
is this good?

For me, some things can be better but just asking why amphraos ? Gyarados @ Gyaradosite does this role better : more ATK, more Speed and STAB power trip.

 

[q0rew89h]

less WG weaknesses

 

[Ransei]

https://pokepast.es/dfa714328f11661a
is this good?

Team isn't too bad but I'd like to suggest a couple quick changes.

1) Switch Let's Snuggle Forever and Searing Sunraze Smash on MMX1 to Photon Geyser and Sunsteel Strike. 3 CFZs as your primary is risky since they only target once without Leppa Berry. Light That Burns The Sky is fine. V-Create may be fine for Doublade.

2) Change both Mega Mewtwo X to Adamant. The power difference is more significant than speed, especially with a Focus Sash.

3) Replace Extreme Evoboost with Shell Smash. The Mega Mewtwo Y lacks power output and Leppa Berry to make up for potential stat-boost loss from Prankster Haze.

4) Ampharos is unviable. It's too slow and weak combined to be a remotely good sweeper in any circumstance.

After a couple more thoughts I see the complications this team holds for being Hyper Offense and would like to suggest the following:

1) Replace Focus Sash on the first Mega Mewtwo X with Choice Scarf, to outspeed any non Scarf Pokémon
2) Replace V-Create with Beat Up in order to break Focus Sashes
3) The sixth slot could be a few things. Innards Out Mega Mewtwo Y or Wonder Gaurd Mega Mewtwo X wouldn't be bad. Regardless of the case, it should have hazards. Preferably a second Stealth Rock as Chansey is super easy to lose. Also give them Light That Burns The Sky.
4) Give the second Mega Mewtwo X either Ice Shard or Ice Hammer over Play Rough. Play Rough ain't so great on Mega Mewtwo X in Gen 7, which is shocking coming from me.
5) Replace Knock Off on the second Mega Mewtwo X with V-Create to hit Mega Steelix and Doublade.

 

[sussyamongusdrip]

Team isn't too bad but I'd like to suggest a couple quick changes.

1) Switch Let's Snuggle Forever and Searing Sunraze Smash on MMX1 to Photon Geyser and Sunsteel Strike. 3 CFZs as your primary is risky since they only target once without Leppa Berry. Light That Burns The Sky is fine. V-Create may be fine for Doublade.

2) Change both Mega Mewtwo X to Adamant. The power difference is more significant than speed, especially with a Focus Sash.

3) Replace Extreme Evoboost with Shell Smash. The Mega Mewtwo Y lacks power output and Leppa Berry to make up for potential stat-boost loss from Prankster Haze.

4) Ampharos is unviable. It's too slow and weak combined to be a remotely good sweeper in any circumstance.

After a couple more thoughts I see the complications this team holds for being Hyper Offense and would like to suggest the following:

1) Replace Focus Sash on the first Mega Mewtwo X with Choice Scarf, to outspeed any non Scarf Pokémon
2) Replace V-Create with Beat Up in order to break Focus Sashes
3) The sixth slot could be a few things. Innards Out Mega Mewtwo Y or Wonder Gaurd Mega Mewtwo X wouldn't be bad. Regardless of the case, it should have hazards. Preferably a second Stealth Rock as Chansey is super easy to lose. Also give them Light That Burns The Sky.
4) Give the second Mega Mewtwo X either Ice Shard or Ice Hammer over Play Rough. Play Rough ain't so great on Mega Mewtwo X in Gen 7, which is shocking coming from me.
5) Replace Knock Off on the second Mega Mewtwo X with V-Create to hit Mega Steelix and Doublade.

i agree with ransei on everything except making the first mmx scarf and replacing play rough on the second mmx. scarf punishes you hard when locking into coverage moves, which gives your opponent momentum and free turns which really hurts on ho (scarf imposter already is good at forcing out stuff anyways). without play rough you can't hit several common dark-type wgs like hoopa, ashgren, and mega gyarados, which can use it as an opportunity to shell smash and start breaking holes in your team while not being forced out by imposter thanks to their self-improofs.
other suggestions:
max spdef instead of min spdef on innards chansey to improof magic guard mmy
you dont need both rocks and spikes on innards chansey, they do pretty much the same job. replace one with parting shot/uturn/baton pass to help pivot in one of your mewtwos safely
mmy should have photon geyser over spore, every sweeper in this metagame should have a moldy move imo

 

[aerobee]

ORAS PH teams I used or passed my teammates this HPL. I didn't get explicit permission from jb so their teams and those with only a few edits from myself won't be included but everything else is here. Click on the minisprites for teams.

_________________________________________________________________________________________________________

blahpy w1 – – Game
To my knowledge blahpy hadn't played in a while, so I tried tweaking their first draft instead of passing them something in my builder, to try to get them back into it. This is just your bog standard 1 Mold Breaker balance, though Imposter's not exactly a common sight on these and Parting Shot Gyarados requires some tight plays to get the most value out of it. Unfortunately in the actual game things went downhill after Gale Wings MRay KOed Groudon but that's on me for not getting blahpy up to speed well enough.

jb291 w1 g3 – – Game
An edited jb/old aero team (I gave jb my builder at the beginning of the tour so I can't tell from the pokepaste username, looks more like my style but not 100% sure). I didn't think Ballfire would bring No Guard and even if they did this team's about as solid vs it as realistically possible without packing multiple Sheer Cold-immune WGs. Mostly standard team besides Zapdos.

blahpy w2 – – Game
Again, I tried modifying blahpy's first draft and swapped out STAG MMX for Slaking, Imposter out for Gyarados, and Arceus out for Blissey. Another bog standard team, pretty much. Unfortunately this got 6-0ed by Taunt Xerneas + TSpikes on preview.

realExcaliju w3 – – Game
I played some games to get Excaliju up to speed, they brought an old dual MMX sample, and I was like "hey you're pretty good with it". As everyone knows, a good pilot with a good dual MMX team smokes the opponent the vast majority of the time, so I modified a version involving Gale Wings MRay over Aerilate, swapping Xerneas for WG PDon. As expected, Excaliju outplayed and won even if they got a bit lucky with Chatter.

realExcaliju w4 g1 – – Game
I forgot what the rationale for the building process was, but it was probably "bring something solid enough that we can outplay" or something along those lines. Topsy on Giratina because we wanted to run an unconventional 4th for whatever reason (I think one of our BH guys suggested it but I'm not sure). Unfortunately a few questionable turns around the middle led to us falling too far behind to bring the game back.

realExcaliju w4 g2 – – Game
This is probably an edited team from an old builder of mine. Normally I'm not the biggest Trick + Spikes STAG PDon fan but it's a concession I made here due to my inability to really fit hazards anywhere else. I think Leftovers Imposter's actually pretty good since most of the time Wonder Guards/Giratina can't hit you with an attack and the extra bulk from Eviolite only really matters in some Mold Breaker/coverage spammer 1v1s vs. Imposter, which shouldn't really be happening if you have a solid enough defensive backbone.

realExcaliju w4 g3 – Game
Same team as the one Excaliju used week 3.

jb291 w4 – RMT – Game
Not much to say about the game, this was basically an autowin matchup.

jb291 w5 g1 – – Game
I would've encouraged jb to use dual MMX again but we were already in and I didn't really mind them using something more conducive to their style. This team was theoretically strong against cancerpass but unfortunately in practice it just got whittled down before being given the opportunity to win.

blahpy w5 g1 – – Game
A stall that didn't seem overly hard to pilot and did pretty well in test games. Looking back I don't really love this team since Taunt SubPassers are annoying without Whirlwind on Registeel and you have one pivoting mon (the Bee check) to get MMX in on Beedrill, but the ideas are there. blahpy got a somewhat unfortunate matchup that Glory effectively capitalized on, hence the game result.

jb291 Semis – Game
jb recycled the team they used in game 3 of week 1.

Nihilslave Semis – RMT – Game
Very well played by Nihil for their first game of the format, even if they got a little lucky in places. 1 standalone MMX is terrible if you want consistency but in tournament play you can take advantage of any WG combinations your opponent strongly favors, and dual MMX significantly builds on that.

jb291 Finals g1 – Game
I actually did not have the chance to review jb's teams before they played, and they happened to just reuse their team from week 5's game 1. Complacent Bounce-less balance was always going to be a bad idea against Ballfire, and even without Lava Plume Gengar (???) this matchup would've been rather tough.

jb291 Finals g2 – RMT – Game
Broken team wins, yada yada, no surprises there.

realExcaliju Finals g1 – – Game
Excaliju wanted to run something along the lines of N's STAG PDon + Band MRay sample, which I'm not a fan of but I entertained the idea regardless. I replaced their first version's MMY with Latios since it grabs so many OHKOes that non-LO MMY doesn't, and replaced Band Ray (only farms people who build without a brain btw) with a much more conducive mon in HP Gyarados. I would've written off the matchup Excaliju played as tough or even near-unwinnable but they impressed me by playing around manu's threats seamlessly.

realExcaliju Finals g2 – – Game
Very solid team that I've had in my builder for a long time now. Dual Diancie's perhaps the next most potent dual coverage idea behind dual MMX since it offers many of the same strong points: innate strong priority via Pixilate FakeSpeed, good defensive utility against top threats (Mega Rayquaza, to a minor extent Mega Beedrill/Pursuit users), and is a potent Huge Power user despite the slightly less ridiculous statspread when compared to MMX. The original had 201 Speed Aegislash, and the only change I made was changing it to neutral max Speed to outspeed 217 Speed Gyarados. Unfortunately this team's quite hard to pilot, and the combination of WG Bee + Band PDon is a tough matchup for this team so unfortunately Excaliju succumbed this game.

realExcaliju Finals g3 – – Game
Another team I had kept in my back pocket for a while. Support Mold Breaker MMX is amazing and its one fault is being tough to Improof without Poison Heal guys (and being bad into said PHeal mons). Plays a lot like this guy, actually, and you can probably see why:

SubPass Escavalier is also really cool and Gyro Ball does wonders against faster stuff. Props to Excaliju for piloting so well against nightmare fuel wack.

_________________________________________________________________________________________________________

FINALS TIEBREAK

If you expected me to prep, prepare to be disappointed. I did shittalk quite a bit prior to the tiebreak week but in reality I was pretty busy IRL, was largely burnt out of the tour already, and felt I didn't really need to prep due to the stuff I already had in my builder and confidence against my opponent in the tiebreak matchup.

GAME 1 (W) – – Game

This is literally just the Dual Diancie team in my builder, but with Timid Aegislash, Ludicolo over Kyogre, and Lum Berry on both Diancies. I knew that Ballfire and their support were well aware of my dual coverage obsession, but I brought a team of the sort since it's naturally good against terrorist Void SubPass archetypes and I was confident I could play around any anti-Huge Power WGs, which is exactly what happened.


GAME 2 (L) – – Game

This is the only team that could only remotely be considered "prepped" that I brought. The changes I made to accommodate for my opponent were to a greater extent than the team above – Giratina and Tyranitar theoretically took care of Mold Breaker PDon/MRay which were being spammed, and this team structure was naturally good against sleep spam. Of course, relying on Poison Heal guys as universal Mold Breaker answers is never truly consistent – Tyranitar can't handle Dialga, Mega Latios, Xerneas, or anything of that sort – but that's a risk I was prepared to take in a bo5, especially since I was already up. Unfortunately I harded Giratina on Knock Swampert and the game went downhill from there.


Now, those were the only two teams I had prepared, so I told Ballfire "gimme 5" and I speedbuilt some nasty stuff:

GAME 3 (W) – – Game

I originally put myself in ORAS for the tiebreak because I was frustrated after losing 3x in a row in USUM. However, when I actually tried to prep for the first time I remembered how much I disliked the idea of tournament ORAS PH play, due to the amount of bs that suddenly becomes justifiable to use since the need for maximum consistency goes out the window. BELLY DRUM PDON is one such example. NO GUARD SUBPASS is another. As an aside, Mold Breaker Gengar is the worst mon in the game, but some alternative non-WG sets (No Guard, Magic Bounce) are actually okay on the right structures. In the actual game, all I really had to do was to SubPass to Groudon, which set up even more easily than expected on preview because Giratina dropped to an unexpected Sheer Cold.


GAME 4 (W) – – Game

The beauty of coverage spam's that you can always switch up your coverage to suit your needs. At this point I had two options: speedbuild another team, or recycle something in my builder. I did a little bit of both. I'd love to be able to say raw Sheer Cold was fully intentional, but I just forgot to remove Huge Power; this, hilariously, turned out to work to my advantage, since I could OHKO Audino when my opponent expected No Guard (as opposed to Huge Power) on MMX. Very fun game to play even outside of that though, drawn-out games are always a good mental exercise.

 

[aerobee]

ORAS PH VR noms now that HPL is over. There's discussion in the council chat to remove the WG VR entirely and integrate the mons there into the regular VR, but I'll nom as though the WG VR remains separate. Not bothering with noms to the C ranks/UR since those mons just aren't relevant enough for me to care about. Not ranked within subranks.

_________________________

REGULAR VR

4th in A+ --> S-
Not hard to understand why – Mold Breaker Mega Rayquaza's head and shoulders above any other Mold Breaker IMO, and that's shown in HPL. Gale Wings is also kinda just broken. I'm not nomming to flat S because I think Giratina's still the clear best mon in the format, even if it's noticeably less dominant than before, and while you need to play carefully to conserve your mons' health while soft-checking Rayquaza that's entirely feasible with most good teams and games are fast-paced enough in general that relying on soft checks is perfectly fine.

1st in A+ --> S-
Flagship mon of the best archetype in the game. I actually think outside of dual MMX the mon isn't as good as its current VR ranking suggests but that archetype alone hard carries. About MRay level imo, don't really care which one's higher.

2nd in A+ --> S-
Fits on close to everything and is the most consistent revenge killer in the game. Poison Heal sets are alright on stall, which is like the only archetype Huge Power Gyarados isn't really justifiable on.

3rd in A+ --> 1st in A
Imposter's hard to fit in general without making concessions in the builder. Very nice when you can fit it in though.

C+ --> 1st in A-
Best Magic Bouncer on the best archetype in the game. Has near-perfect synergy with dual MMX, especially if one MMX has priority: Aegislash can come in on Gale Wings MRay/WG Xerneas/WG Beedrill, while MMX pretty much does its thing. Shadow Sneak/Mach Punch MMX can OHKO SubPass Gengar/WG Deoxys formes/Huge Power Gyarados, mons that give Aegislash a hard time. Mons that threaten both Aegislash and MMX are generally threatened by Huge Power Gyarados and/or Imposter. Therefore Aegislash is overall easier to justify using than Latios, MMY, non-WG Arceus, etc. imo. This nom might sound ridiculous at first glance, but think of it as nomming Magic Bounce Giratina (on dual MMX, where a Magic Bounce Ghost is best) but better. I might make a post that goes further in-depth if people are interested.

2nd in A- --> B+
Don't feel very strongly about this one, but MMY's a little underwhelming compared to Latios imo. MMY tries to make do with a seemingly incredible stat spread but it just falls short in every aspect: you're outsped by Beedrill, you're not particularly physically bulky (vulnerable to STAG FakeSpeed), you don't actually hit Giratina particularly hard (you need Modest to consistently 2HKO iirc), and your typing is absolutely abysmal (contributing to the previous three points via granting below average STABs, weaknesses to U-turn and Pursuit, and basically no good resistances).

B- --> B
I think Metagross has proven itself to be more potent than its ranking suggests when people aren't actually running Bounce balances that much and reliable counterplay besides Magic Bounce and Poison Heal aren't all that common. You could argue that you could run something else instead of Metagross, but it's usually the best option due to effectively complementing Giratina/the most common recipient in Mold Breaker Mega Rayquaza defensively. Tyranitar I'm more unsure on but I've found it to be an alternative to Huge Power Gyarados if you want a revenge killer more resilient to Mega Rayquaza than Gyarados/to an extent Mega Diancie. I've experimented with Poison Heal sets too, bringing Poison Heal Tyranitar twice in finals tiebreak. Weak to Secret Sword stuff though.

C- --> B-/B
Hard to forgo on stall and is one of the hardest Mega Rayquaza counters that don't opt for Poison Heal. Stall itself is inconsistent but it's an okay enough matchup fish to bring against specific opponents, as shown multiple times in HPL. Registeel actually had 13 uses (10.32% usage) in HPL, which is probably more than half the B ranks. I probably rate Registeel lower than others do but it's clear that a substantial rise is warranted.

5th in A --> B-
Gengar's been garbage forever, but if you want stats based on the moves/teammates stats Mold Breaker was brought like 10 times max (out of 126 teams) and to my knowledge didn't sweep once. And this is tournament play, mind you, where Gengar's theoretically better because in a bo1/3 environment you can justify bringing it against some opponents more easily due to their particular tendencies. Magic Bounce exists but that's pretty niche, especially when Gale Wings Rayquaza and Gyarados are super common. Metagross and Tyranitar've gapped this mon for a while now.

C+ --> B-
Runs Poison Heal about as well as Gyarados/Tyranitar, and can also run a bunch of other random stuff. Mold Breaker Gengar is close to irrelevant imo but it also lives any one hit from it at +2. You could also rank Umbreon around the same spot if you wanted to, since there's close to no practical difference (you trade not dropping to STAG MMX's Drain Punch/Close Combat/Storm Throw for Electric/Stealth Rock neutralities).

Personal VR

Leaving No Guard out because I can rank it in different places depending on how much I value consistency versus how much I value surprise factor.

S+
Wonder Guard

S
Giratina

S-
Gyarados-Mega
Mewtwo-Mega-X
Rayquaza-Mega

A+
Groudon-Primal

A
Diancie-Mega
Imposter
Regigigas
Slaking

A-
Aegislash
Latios-Mega

B+
Arceus
Mewtwo-Mega-Y
Xerneas

B
Dialga
Metagross-Mega
Tyranitar-Mega
Zekrom

B-
Gengar-Mega
Gyarados @ Gyaradosite
Registeel
Yveltal

_________________________

WONDER GUARD VR

Personal Wonder Guard VR

Top, High, Mid-high, and Mid viability. I don't care to divvy the rankings up more since they're a lot harder to rank accurately than mons on the Regular VR. Again, not ordered within ranks. Of course, some of these are borderline so don't read into my placements too hard.

Top*
Beedrill-Mega
Xerneas

High
Arceus
Audino-Mega
Blissey
Deoxys-Attack
Ferrothorn
Kyogre-Primal
Mewtwo-Mega-X
Sableye-Mega
Slaking

Mid-High
Deoxys-Speed
Escavalier
Gengar-Mega
Groudon-Primal
Manectric-Mega
Ludicolo
Scizor-Mega
Swampert-Mega
Thundurus

Mid
Cresselia
Gardevoir-Mega
Gyarados @ Gyaradosite
Landorus-Therian
Lucario-Mega
Mewtwo-Mega-Y
Rotom-Fan
Skuntank
Volcarona

*Not a large difference in viability from High, but I did think these mons stood out by an appreciable amount.

To be honest I don't think any of the support Wonder Guards are head and shoulders above anything else, since their function is mostly the same and easily replicable by any other mon with solid stats and a good typing. Sets focused on disruption, however, rely on each mon's individual attributes to maximize their effectiveness, and therefore are more tied to each mon. No other mon has the combination of WG Beedrill's speed, power with STAB U-turn, Black Sludge healing, TSpikes absorption, etc. at once, for example. With this in consideration, I think the top disruptor WGs (basically Beedrill) are individually more viable than any single support WG, since it is more difficult to justify using something else in their place.

RISE:

: A bit unsure about this one, but Beedrill's winrate in HPL is insane and its only fault is being slightly inconsistent thanks to Gale Wings Rayquaza/STAG Primal Groudon's prevalence. Broken mon that's hard to replicate, rolls over matchups by default, and demands a solid gameplan against in the builder. I don't use it as much as other though because I'm better.

: No surprises here. Huge Power + Wonder Guard dual MMX is extremely solid and opens up ways to deviate from traditional MMX-MMX-Support WG-SubPass WG-Bounce-Revenger coverage spam structures. A few coverage types do not actually need Huge Power to threaten the intended targets which is why MMX-WG MMX-Support WG-Bounce-Revenger-Filler is also feasible. Probs worth putting in A rank or so since dual MMX is so ridiculous.

: Actual defensive utility (soft-checking Mold Breaker Xerneas/Mega Diancie; counters if Spore and Spore/Forest's Curse immunity) while having a decent, but not great, matchup into coverage spammers thanks to only being weak to Fire/Fighting. Even higher than Scizor because Spore immunity is just that important (due to being consistently relevant).

: Maybe? Not sure but Level 2 sets are hard to replicate with a different mon and, much like Beedrill, those sets require careful preparation in the builder if you don't want it to be a huge nuisance against you.

: Spore-immune mono-Thousand Arrows Primal Groudon check. That's pretty good.

: Dual MMX is incredible so these guys are pretty good as a result. Thundurus is the clear best one due to not being Water Shuriken-weak and faster than the other Huge Power coverage spam counters. Non-Freeze-Dry Ice moves actually somewhat being ran thanks to Rayquaza, as well as their general lack of defensive utility against boosted Mold Breakers, generally hurt their viability though. Thundy's probably worth ranking in B+ or so.

: Spikes are a fair bit more common than Stealth Rock at this point and this mon's less unusable as a result. Also a pseudo Huge Power coverage counter due to its uncommon weaknesses.


DROP:

: Bad showings in HPL and less defensive utility vs. Mold Breakers amid Mega Rayquaza's rise and Mega Gengar becoming a lot rarer. Also has a harder time in the builder vs. Taunt stuff since you can realistically only run Chatter (and Knock Off/U-turn/Moonblast if you're coping hard enough). Definitely not bad though, should still fit in A+ on the actual VR.

: Hasn't gotten a whole lot worse, but I think Mold Breaker Rayquaza makes it a bit harder to coast through with and I don't think it performs its role well enough relative to other top-tier support 'mons to warrant S rank.

: Hard to fit onto teams since you don't necessarily blank common Magic Bouncers and have literally 0 defensive utility apart from Wonder Guard. Small drop to flat A if anything at all.

: Drop significantly. Outclassed by Deo-A unless you're going for something that'd involve taking hits for whatever reason, so close to never. I guess you fare better in extremely random interactions (vs. ESpeed Mold Breaker PDon, for example) but that's not worth being outsped by Beedrill.

: Can drop a bit. I never liked Manectric when I tried running it and it doesn't really have any redeeming qualities outside of having only 1 weakness. That weakness is Ground and it's outsped by Beedrill, 'nuff said.

: Coverage WGs besides MMX are actually pretty uncommon now, for the same reasons why 1 standalone MMX sucks. Outside of offensive WG Gardevoir's kinda outdone by Xerneas.

 

[lag=bad]

Best Magic Bouncer on the best archetype in the game. Has near-perfect synergy with dual MMX, especially if one MMX has priority: Aegislash can come in on Gale Wings MRay/WG Xerneas/WG Beedrill, while MMX pretty much does its thing. Shadow Sneak/Mach Punch MMX can OHKO SubPass Gengar/WG Deoxys formes/Huge Power Gyarados, mons that give Aegislash a hard time. Mons that threaten both Aegislash and MMX are generally threatened by Huge Power Gyarados and/or Imposter. Therefore Aegislash is overall easier to justify using than Latios, MMY, non-WG Arceus, etc. imo. This nom might sound ridiculous at first glance, but think of it as nomming Magic Bounce Giratina (on dual MMX, where a Magic Bounce Ghost is best) but better. I might make a post that goes further in-depth if people are interested.

While I completely understand why it is so incredibly good on dual mmx teams, I don't think it is that deserving of such a high placement. Especially when it has to run speed investment to avoid being trapped by Mgyarados. If you could add some more reasoning as to why you nominated it so highly, I could be inclined to change my mind on this.

: Dual MMX is incredible so these guys are pretty good as a result. Thundurus is the clear best one due to not being Water Shuriken-weak and faster than the other Huge Power coverage spam counters. Non-Freeze-Dry Ice moves actually somewhat being ran thanks to Rayquaza, as well as their general lack of defensive utility against boosted Mold Breakers, generally hurt their viability though. Thundy's probably worth ranking in B+ or so.

I agree that these were lower than they should have been, but I would argue the two best are Zapdos and Thundurus, with different pro's and con's between them. Thundurus has a better speed tier, but zapdos has more bulk, capable of living +2 freeze dry's from some wg sweepers, while also being able to softcheck some ray sets.

overall fun noms. Looking forward to what gets implemented.

 

[aerobee]

While I completely understand why it is so incredibly good on dual mmx teams, I don't think it is that deserving of such a high placement. Especially when it has to run speed investment to avoid being trapped by Mgyarados. If you could add some more reasoning as to why you nominated it so highly, I could be inclined to change my mind on this.

Sure.

The logic is actually pretty simple: as you said Aegi is really good on dual MMX, and dual MMX itself is one of the best archetypes out there. That means in my mind it's closer in nature of viability to other mons you'd generally slap onto viable archetypes (Mega Rayquaza on balance, Primal Groudon almost everywhere, Mega Diancie on balance/offense, etc.) than mons you'd need pretty strong justifications or hyper-specialized archetypes to make use of (even in my proposed B ranks you see Dialga, Registeel, etc. which fit these specifications). Even Latios and MMY, which are currently in the A- rank, are somewhat "niche" in that you could find reason to use them, but most of the time other options (Huge Power MMX vs. Protean Latios, Mold Breaker Rayquaza vs. Mold Breaker Latios, at least one of MMX/Latios vs. MMY) are overall superior. You could argue MMY isn't directly outclassed by anything, but those sets collectively don't fit on many structures anyway, at least not as many as Aegislash would on dual MMX. You could also argue that Aegi has competition in Magic Bounce Giratina, but from my experience Aegi's noticeably better and that competition's just a minor hindrance to its viability.

You're right that fast Gyarados could be an issue for Aegislash, but to my knowledge ones fast enough to the point where Aegi can't accommodate for them (>240 raw Speed) are nonexistent, since that would require the Gyarados user to sacrifice HP investment, which is tough when you're taking advantage of Gyarados' defensive utility to make full use of it. Taking potential fast Gyarados into account would be future-proofing anyway.

So in summary, Aegislash is a good mon on a very good archetype, making it easier to justify putting on teams than mons that aren't necessarily the best at their role on major archetypes (Latios, Dialga, Xerneas, Arceus etc. competing with Mold Breaker Mega Rayquaza, for example), which is just about everything in the B/A- ranks. Therefore, Aegi is more viable than mons in those ranks and should be ranked above them. If one were to disagree with my nom, it'd be because they think Aegislash is outclassed on dual MMX, dual MMX itself is not that good, or a combination of these two arguments.

 

[aerobee]

I'd like to welcome Iguana to the ORAS PH council! They're a long-time player and have followed the tier at a high level for most of its development, making them perfect for the role. Welcome!

 

[NToTheN]

Since Bahamut stepped down from council a while ago, I have taken over responsibility of the metagame post. The old post will now link here and other links will be adjusted to direct here as well.

ORAS Pure Hackmons

​

Council: NToTheN, Ransei, Iguana
Resources:
Viability Rankings
Ability Viability Rankings
Setpedia
Wonder Guard Setpedia
Speed Tiers
Mechanical Differences Between Generations

Sample Teams:

Deer Squad Redux Spam by aerobee


Band Groudon + Imposter BO by Glory


Protean + STAG PDon Offense by NToTheN


Cotton Guard Rayquaza + WG Gengar + Abomasnow Bulky Offense by aerobee


Mold Breaker Diancie Bulky Offense by aerobee


Magic Bounce Gyarados + Gale Wings Mega Rayquaza by NToTheN


Bulky Beedrill Offense by NToTheN


Dual Xerneas Hyper Offense by Rose


Dual MMX and Aegislash Offense by aerobee

Legacy Samples

Seedling by AV Cosmoem


Seedling II by AV Cosmoem


CB Stag Aerodactyl + Mold Breaker Latios by Ransei


TA Xerneas Hyper Offense by Bahamut


Natural by Ransei


WG Spooky Plate Arceus Offense by Disciple 1


The Legacy Passive Balance by Feebas4ubers


Dual Rabbit Balance with Diancie by Bahamut

Mold Breaker Sceptile Balance by Alexgrizz


Shadow Tag Regigigas Stall by aerobee


CB Shadow Tag Aerodactyl Balance by CommandoBruh


Sailor Moon's Quest by Bahamut


Dual Diancie-Mega + Aegislash Offense by aerobee


Dual MMX Offense by Bahamut and aerobee


Triple Wonder Guard Offense with Rotom-Fan by Bahamut


Scarf No Guard Aerodactyl-Mega and Dread Plate Arceus Balance by NToTheN


HUGE POWER SPAM by Bahamut and aerobee


Dual Mold + Gengar-Mega Wonder Guard by a banned user


Wonderguard MMX + Huge power MMX + Imposter offense by aerobee

Older Resources:
These resources are outdated and do not fit the current meta, but you may still glean some useful knowledge from them
Solving ORAS Hackmons by berry
Introduction to Gen 6 Pure Hackmons by CHORUME
Threatlist by Ransei
ORAS Hackmons: Metagame Trends Part 1 and Part 2 by aerobee

Tour Script

/tour new gen6purehackmons, elim

FAQ:
Q: Why is there an EV limit?
A: In Generation 6, it's impossible to play in local matches with other players if the total amount of EVs on one of your Pokemon is above 510, regardless of whether it's legal or not.

Q: Are sample team submissions open? How do I submit a sample team?
A: Absolutely! Sample team submissions are always open. Simply post them in this forum with a brief description.

 

[NToTheN]

Official ORAS Hackmons Viability Rankings
Originally ran by Bahamut​

Welcome to the ORAS Hackmons Viability Rankings. The goal of this resource is to provide an accurate ranking of used Pokemon in the metagame, and the most common abilities those Pokemon use. Pokemon ranked below A are ranked alphabetically within their tiers. Abilities in Bold are seen very commonly on that Pokemon and are considered staples. Abilities in italics are other abilities that one might need to prepare for or keep in mind if you see the Pokemon in team preview, but are not very common or are more niche.

Why Does Wonder Guard Get Its Own Viability Rankings?
Because of the immense amount of Pokemon that effectively use Wonder Guard, and due to a lot of the roles of said Pokemon overlapping while they run Wonder Guard, we thought it would be appropriate to rank every commonly used Wonder Guard user as well, and put it at the top of the VR.

Feel free to respond with Pokemon you think should be added, or sets that a Pokemon should have.

S Rank
S+
Wonder Guard

Wonder Guard Viability Rankings

S

Beedrill-Mega

Xerneas

A

Arceus

Audino-Mega

Blissey

Deoxys-Attack

Ferrothorn

Kyogre-Primal

Mewtwo-Mega-X

Sableye-Mega

Slaking

B

Deoxys-Speed

Escavalier

Gengar-Mega

Groudon-Primal

Manectric-Mega

Ludicolo

Scizor-Mega

Swampert-Mega

Thundurus

C

Cresselia

Gardevoir-Mega

Gyarados @ Gyaradosite

Landorus-Therian

Lucario-Mega

Mewtwo-Mega-Y

S

Giratina ......................... Prankster, Magic Bounce, Poison Heal

S-

Rayquaza-Mega ........... Mold Breaker, Gale Wings, Aerilate, Shadow Tag

Mewtwo-Mega-X ........ Huge Power, Shadow Tag, Wonder Guard, Mold Breaker

Gyarados-Mega ........... Huge Power, Poison Heal

A Rank
A+

Xerneas ......................... Wonder Guard, Mold Breaker

Groudon-Primal .......... Mold Breaker, Shadow Tag, Huge Power

Beedrill-Mega ............. Wonder Guard, No Guard

Audino-Mega ............... Wonder Guard

Chansey ........................ Imposter

A

Gengar-Mega ............... Wonder Guard, Mold Breaker, No Guard

Diancie-Mega ............... Pixilate, Mold Breaker

Slaking ........................... Shadow Tag, Huge Power, Wonder Guard

Kyogre-Primal .............. Wonder Guard, Mold Breaker, Magic Bounce

A-

Regigias ........................ Shadow Tag, Huge Power

Sableye-Mega ............... Wonder Guard

Latios-Mega ................. Mold Breaker, Protean

Blissey ........................... Wonder Guard, Imposter


Reminder that Pokemon after this point are ranked alphabetically~

B Rank
B+

Aegislash ..................... Magic Bounce, Prankster

Arceus .......................... Wonder Guard, Mold Breaker, No Guard

Deoxys-Attack ............. Wonder Guard, No Guard

Escavalier ..................... Wonder Guard

Ferrothorn ................... Wonder Guard

Mewtwo-Mega-Y ........ Shadow Tag, No Guard, Mold Breaker, Protean, Wonder Guard

Scizor-Mega ................ Wonder Guard

B

Deoxys-Speed ............. No Guard, Wonder Guard

Dialga ........................... Mold Breaker, Magic Bounce

Gyarados ...................... Wonder Guard, Magic Bounce, Prankster, No Guard

Ludicolo ........................ Wonder Guard

Manectric-Mega .......... Wonder Guard

Registeel ....................... Magic Bounce, Prankster

Swampert-Mega ......... Wonder Guard

Thundurus .................... Wonder Guard

B-

Garchomp-Mega ........... Mold Breaker

Metagross-Mega ........... Prankster

Tyranitar-Mega .............. Mold Breaker, Huge Power, Poison Heal

Yveltal ............................. Magic Bounce, Magic Guard, Regenerator

Zekrom ........................... Mold Breaker

C Rank

Abomasnow-Mega ........ Refrigerate

Cresselia ......................... Wonder Guard

Gardevoir-Mega ............ Wonder Guard

Ho-Oh ............................. Magic Guard

Kyurem-Black................. Refrigerate

Kyurem-White................ Mold Breaker

Landorus-Therian.......... Wonder Guard

Lugia................................ Shadow Tag

Lucario-Mega................. Wonder Guard

Changelog

October 20, 2024

• Fixed Xerneas being at top of A instead of top of A+ by accident
• Imposter added as bolded ability for Blissey
• Magic Bounce added as italic ability for Dialga
• Regigigas added to top of A-

October 25, 2024

• Moved Mega Beedrill in 3rd in A+, above Mega Audino. This change was to fix an inconsistency related to the WG VR.
• Moved Mega Gengar to 1st in A, above Mega Diancie.
• Moved Primal Kyogre to 4th in A-, below Slaking.
• Made Wonder Guard a bold ability on Slaking.

 

[Sheep Liver]

can I ask why blissey doesn't have imposter?

 

[lag=bad]

Dialga ........................... Mold Breaker

can I request the addition of magic bounce to dialga's viable abilities? I can write a full explanation if needed, but instead I would point you to this (totally not just wanting to show it off) Dialga is really good as a magic bouncer, since it's good defensive typing and ability to throw out powerful stab moves that hit top pokemon (draco meteor/spacial rend, doom desire to break subs/force certain pokemon out) in addition to it's good bulk both specially and physically depending on ev spreads, mean that dialga can very easily take advantage of magic bounce as an ability. Especially when it's steel typing helps it again to minimize the effects of hazards on switchin, furthering it's longevity.
Edit: LETS GOO

 

[hendrit]

Audino-Mega ............... Wonder Guard

Xerneas ......................... Wonder Guard, Mold Breaker

why is xerneas lower than audino despite audino being lower on the wonder guard vr (audino A; xerneas S) and only having wonder guard as an ability, while xerneas also has a mold breaker set

 

[NToTheN]

Fixed some of the issues! Also added a Changelogs part of the VR so people can find the changes at a more centralized place rather than having to scour the forums trying to find them all. Here's are the changes

• Xerneas is now at the top of A+ instead of the top of A. This was just a mistake when making the VR.
• Imposter has been added as an ability in bold for Blissey.
• Magic Bounce has been added as an ability in italics for Dialga
• Regigigas was added to the top of A-, above Mega Sableye

 

[hendrit]

• Regigigas was added to the top of A-, above Mega Sableye

maybe my smogon is bugging or something but i cant see this change

 

[NToTheN]

maybe my smogon is bugging or something but i cant see this change

had an error in the message, it should be good now

 

[adriancosmoem]

3 am adv thoughts


Slaking @ Lum Berry
Ability: No Ability
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Belly Drum
- Extreme Speed
- Cross Chop
- Recover

recover stops ttar/sand/hazards from ruining you. espeed cc still beats like 95% of the meta anyway, you only miss gar. loss of spore means steels can reversal you but cross chop is broken so it can kill all of them if you're lucky. kinda not worth if you're running ho, but if you have an ogre switch in the back then this is good


Gengar @ Leftovers / Lum Berry
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Shadow Ball
- Surf
- Spore
- Imprison

imprison sball lets you reversal slak with zero risk. if it has a speed boost already it kinda doesn't work though. surf is to imprison ogre but also to hit don and agg. spore is just nice to have with 110 speed but it also stops slak from sporing you so you can run lefties. you can also run lum to switch in on spore though


Gengar @ Lum Berry / Black Belt
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Belly Drum
- Shadow Ball
- Cross Chop
- Imprison

same imprison concept except you actually sweep them. +6 cross chop ohkoes slak but outside of that the power is kinda lacking, so you have to chip the opponent for this to work. mainly just a reversal, even if you don't kill them +6 sball is doing like 80%. black belt lets cross chop always 2hko skarm which might be good if they switch in. good with slak to exhaust their checks since this gar set shares a bunch of them


Tentacruel @ Leftovers
Ability: Clear Body
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Ice Beam
- Milk Drink
- Toxic
- Taunt

this tenta doesn't lose to resttalk or aroma ogre like the usual. you are faster so taunt always prevents them from heals. taunt only lasts 2 turns so you have to spam it and it probably lets stuff in for free, so spikes are prob good with this


Latios (M) @ Soul Dew
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Dragon Claw
- Sacred Fire
- Tail Glow
- Milk Drink

is this not just better tg ray? honestly this thing's kinda fucked up. like yeah it loses to spore but look at these calcs:

calcs

+2 252 SpA Soul Dew Latios Dragon Claw vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD : 403-475 (79.9 - 94.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252 SpA Soul Dew Latios Dragon Claw vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD : 244-288 (60.3 - 71.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252 SpA Soul Dew Latios Dragon Claw vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD : 372-438 (114.8 - 135.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252 SpA Soul Dew Latios Dragon Claw vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD : 309-364 (76.4 - 90%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252 SpA Soul Dew Latios Sacred Fire vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD in Sun: 413-486 (102.2 - 120.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252 SpA Soul Dew Latios Sacred Fire vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD : 351-414 (102 - 120.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252 SpA Soul Dew Latios Dragon Claw vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD : 273-322 (75 - 88.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252 SpA Soul Dew Latios Sacred Fire vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD : 516-608 (127.7 - 150.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252 SpA Soul Dew Latios Dragon Claw vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD : 207-244 (49.7 - 58.6%) -- 69.5% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

after tg it 2hkos the whole game. tg ray can also 2hko all these guys outside of ho-oh, but ray just sucks defensively. its 4x ice weakness and 95 speed let a lot of the base 100 joe schmoes like tenta and celebi counter it by slotting ib, but they fold to lati cause it's 110 and way fatter. milk drink serves a purpose cause latios can actually switch on ogre/don/celebi/steels. this thing seems like a top 5 mon to me. if i bothered to update vr i would probably put it A1 rank cause it's just a tg ray upgrade


Salamence @ Choice Band
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Aeroblast
- Cross Chop
- Extreme Speed
- Rock Blast / Sacred Fire / Trick

another competitor for ray but it's for the cb set instead. might find a niche because of 100 spe to outrun ray + intim which lets skarm always dodge +6 slak cc ohko. 100 spe lets mence try for espeed revenge against +6 slak as well. has to win the speed tie though. would be a lot better if it lived +5 espeed. ray's prob better because of higher power + air lock, but mence could be worth it on like sandless skarm balance


Metagross @ Lum Berry / Leftovers
Ability: Clear Body
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Impish Nature
- Cross Chop
- Recover
- Spikes / Whirlwind
- Sleep Talk / Whirlwind

+6 252 Atk Slaking Cross Chop vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Metagross: 305-359 (83.7 - 98.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKOHKO
+6 252 Atk Slaking Cross Chop vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 289-340 (86.5 - 101.7%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO

gross is directly better against slak than skarm is, and this matchup is like the whole reason to use skarm in the first place. also, gross has 135 atk so it can actually consider killing slak instead of clicking ww and dying later. cc does like 40 but there are tech options.

tech options

+1 252 Atk Metagross Cross Chop vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Slaking: 266-314 (52.7 - 62.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Metagross Reversal (150 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Slaking: 266-314 (52.7 - 62.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Black Belt Metagross Superpower vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Slaking: 234-276 (46.4 - 54.7%) -- 64.5% chance to 2HKO

also cc doing 40 is pretty big on sand or if you can get spikes up. it's really disappointing how long it took me to realize this is a good mon lol. skarm still has a niche because of eq/spikes immune though

thanks for tuning in

 

[adriancosmoem]

thinking about what my adv vr would look like. this is all thought experiment right now, but it's also been proven to work in the games i have played or just by doing some calcs and realizing

S Rank

duh
this thing's actually such a problem. not just for passing to slak, but for enabling tg sweepers and slow nukes way too hard. it's impossible to prep for jask or stop it from passing in the builder, you just have to actually outplay the jask user in the game. if not for this then encore backgar + steel would guarantee cover all bd slak variants, can't say the same for band/dd though

A Rank

very splashable, beats 80% of the tier by spamming surf and can tech to beat the other 20% pretty easily. best sleep absorber in the tier. has a ton of variants like surftalk, tg, resttalk, cm resttalk, sub tg, etc. that can all beat the ogre checks. also deletes sand
tg dclaw sfire 2hkos the entire tier except for bliss and regice under rain (who sucks anyway). can switch in on ogre/steels for free and set up, he can also afford recovery 4th to do it consistently or he can just spore. held back because he loses to slak and jask
same thing but she misses 2hkos on some of the really fat special mons. in exchange she gets to switch on ogre easier. you can also just run defensive lati sets for the special bulk and latias is better at it than latios
back encore/imprison gar beats every slak as long as they don't have speed boosts. it's also a good bd user depsite the low atk because it's faster than slak and immune to espeed, as well as having stab sball which is a great move to have stab on. very awkward mon to answer in the builder, it has the space to run a lot of random lures
sand is broken and rock stab makes it a good lead already. can switch on sball spore slak (bad set though), ccless psychics, and ccless gar. dark type is such a curse though; it just makes him die to every cc, and he's so damn slow. but sand is that broken
the only steel that can survive +6 slak cc and actually ko it back. also switches on ttar and sball tech can beat psychics and gar. his main problem is that he needs outside help (sand, spikes, or non-lum item) to ko slak after bd. if gross doesn't have the set or teammates to ko slak then he's worse skarm. because of that, he needs a more specific framework to function and he's not as splashable as skarm who you can just put on whatever
the other steel that survives +6 slak cc. much more passive than gross but counter and ww basically put slak out of commission anyway. it can't answer ttar/gar/psychics, but gross gives up a lot to answer the latter two so it's not a huge downside. spikes/dug immune is cool
best steel answer in the game. dd set is really scary since 150 atk + sfire in sun really limits the wall choices. best spiker because the spinners are the steels who die to eq/sfire. +def nature don can survive +6 slak espeed and revenge which is awesome. the sun can buff lati sfire and let him ohko steels without a boost. unfortunately there's so many fliers that ground stab isn't really that good, so don has to rely on non-stab which does a really noticeable number on his power

B Rank

cc is everywhere which fucks him. he beats sball spore slak but that's a bad set so who cares? insane synergy with jask, which is the main reason to take him over other steels. jask can take cc and agg can take blast, and if jask passes agg speed and sub, he can sweep pretty easily. agg lives +0 slak cc so if he ever gets an sd he will at least cripple 1 slak. really good if you have jask but just okay if you don't
not actually a slak victim because it has one of the strongest and fastest espeeds itself. it can revenge slak if anything. can obviously run all of the coverage in the game and can slot banded easily. really strong wallbreaker and revenge killer especially against gar/psychics. also has the space for random lures
tg sets are outclassed by latis but band is pretty good. band aeroblast is tough to switch into and he can afford cc or even mixed coverage without breaking a sweat. band trick is also very useful. air lock is a great ability which lets him ignore sand and tank ogre surf easily. outspeeding don and ogre is really nice. spikes immunity can also come in handy sometimes. really spore weak though, even more than latis
one of the strongest answers to ogre/don/agg/ttar. unfortunately loses to everything else, unless you slot ib then she can check ray i guess. natural cure means she can run lefties comfortably if you're on a bulky structure, which you probably should be if you're using her, so it makes her a better wall than she looks like. does great against sand which always has ttar and likes to run don too

C Rank

strong into jask lead, and slak lead if they have the balls for it. not great against the others though. you can keep him around for a slak check cause he outspeeds, lives a +6 espeed, and can spore or revenge with blast
taunt recover 1v1s a lot of the setup sweepers (including slak) and you also can beat band users by just tanking them. a well-placed lugia gives offense a really hard time. pressure is really good when there are popular moves (espeed, cc, sfire) that have 8 pp. super pressed for moveslots though, you always have to sacrifice something on a lugia set
outspeeds gar/latis/lugia instead of tying like latis and isn't super easily revenge killed like deo-a which gives him a defined niche over the other psychics. he can also afford to run lum while latis/deo can't. does really similar stuff to latis
traps steels/ogre/don and booms on them. he can also band espeed against slak to revenge it. can really break apart the backbone especially against sand. a lot of the popular mons have flying/levitate so it makes dug suck a lot more
actually switches on ogre/tg sweepers unlike a lot of the fake special walls. natural cure lets her run lefties. also max evs lets her tank more phys hits than she should
pivoting doesn't exist yet outside of bp (which only jask can afford anyway) making psong wobb really put in work against walls. can target the mass fliers and levitators so he has a niche over dug. has the same moveslot problem as lugia

D Rank

ghost type with insomnia, how can you go wrong? max ev lets her take a hit from tg sweepers and revenge. since they all happen to be psychic, cb sball will ohko them. foolproof stop to non-sball slak. pretty good with jask support. just suffers from bad stats
bd espeed user that outspeeds gar. it's also neutral to cc so it's not as easy as it looks for steels to reversal him. has half the attack of slak so he obviously gets tanked easily. also he has to run sball for gar so spore's not an option unless you want to lose to every steel
agility t1 blast t2 is the only lead that actually stops jask from passing spe, and 180 spe psychic + boom lets it revenge. sucks against every other lead especially ttar
swift swim lets him outspeed slak in the rain and sd cc/boom. he needs support to sweep (ogre) which makes him a funny looking agg. he can fit on jaskless ogre structures that agg doesn't wanna be on

i spent a lot of time going over mons and don't think i forgot anything. there's some mons i thought about but decided they're too niche or fail at their job () so i didn't rank them. thanks for reading

 

[Siphonaptera]

thinking about what my adv vr would look like. this is all thought experiment right now, but it's also been proven to work in the games i have played or just by doing some calcs and realizing

S Rank

duh
this thing's actually such a problem. not just for passing to slak, but for enabling tg sweepers and slow nukes way too hard. it's impossible to prep for jask or stop it from passing in the builder, you just have to actually outplay the jask user in the game. if not for this then encore backgar + steel would guarantee cover all bd slak variants, can't say the same for band/dd though

A Rank

very splashable, beats 80% of the tier by spamming surf and can tech to beat the other 20% pretty easily. best sleep absorber in the tier. has a ton of variants like surftalk, tg, resttalk, cm resttalk, sub tg, etc. that can all beat the ogre checks. also deletes sand
tg dclaw sfire 2hkos the entire tier except for regice under rain (who sucks anyway). can switch in on ogre/steels for free and set up, he can also afford recovery 4th to do it consistently or he can just spore. held back because he loses to slak and jask
same thing but she misses 2hkos on some of the really fat special mons. in exchange she gets to switch on ogre easier. you can also just run defensive lati sets for the special bulk and latias is better at it than latios
back encore/imprison gar beats every slak as long as they don't have speed boosts. it's also a good bd user depsite the low atk because it's faster than slak and immune to espeed, as well as having stab sball which is a great move to have stab on. very awkward mon to answer in the builder, it has the space to run a lot of random lures
sand is broken and rock stab makes it a good lead already. can switch on sball spore slak (bad set though), ccless psychics, and ccless gar. dark type is such a curse though; it just makes him die to every cc, and he's so damn slow. but sand is that broken
the only steel that can survive +6 slak cc and actually ko it back. also switches on ttar and sball tech can beat psychics and gar. his main problem is that he needs outside help (sand, spikes, or non-lum item) to ko slak after bd. if gross doesn't have the set or teammates to ko slak then he's worse skarm. because of that, he needs a more specific framework to function and he's not as splashable as skarm who you can just put on whatever
the other steel that survives +6 slak cc. much more passive than gross but counter and ww basically put slak out of commission anyway. it can't answer ttar/gar/psychics, but gross gives up a lot to answer the latter two so it's not a huge downside. spikes/dug immune is cool
best steel answer in the game. dd set is really scary since 150 atk + sfire in sun really limits the wall choices. best spiker because the spinners are the steels who die to eq/sfire. +def nature don can survive +6 slak espeed and revenge which is awesome. the sun can buff lati sfire and let him ohko steels without a boost. unfortunately there's so many fliers that ground stab isn't really that good, so don has to rely on non-stab which does a really noticeable number on his power

B Rank

cc is everywhere which fucks him. he beats sball spore slak but that's a bad set so who cares? insane synergy with jask, which is the main reason to take him over other steels. jask can take cc and agg can take blast, and if jask passes agg speed and sub, he can sweep pretty easily. agg lives +0 slak cc so if he ever gets an sd he will at least cripple 1 slak. really good if you have jask but just okay if you don't
not actually a slak victim because it has one of the strongest and fastest espeeds itself. it can revenge slak if anything. can obviously run all of the coverage in the game and can slot banded easily. really strong wallbreaker and revenge killer especially against gar/psychics. also has the space for random lures
tg sets are outclassed by latis but band is pretty good. band aeroblast is tough to switch into and he can afford cc or even mixed coverage without breaking a sweat. band trick is also very useful. air lock is a great ability which lets him ignore sand and tank ogre surf easily. outspeeding don and ogre is really nice. spikes immunity can also come in handy sometimes. really spore weak though, even more than latis
one of the strongest answers to ogre/don/agg/ttar. unfortunately loses to everything else, unless you slot ib then she can check ray i guess. natural cure means she can run lefties comfortably if you're on a bulky structure, which you probably should be if you're using her, so it makes her a better wall than she looks like. does great against sand which always has ttar and likes to run don too

C Rank

strong into jask lead, and slak lead if they have the balls for it. not great against the others though. you can keep him around for a slak check cause he outspeeds, lives a +6 espeed, and can spore or revenge with blast
taunt recover 1v1s a lot of the setup sweepers (including slak) and you also can beat band users by just tanking them. a well-placed lugia gives offense a really hard time. pressure is really good when there are popular moves (espeed, cc, sfire) that have 8 pp. super pressed for moveslots though, you always have to sacrifice something on a lugia set
outspeeds gar/latis/lugia instead of tying like latis and isn't super easily revenge killed like deo-a which gives him a defined niche over the other psychics. he can also afford to run lum while latis/deo can't. does really similar stuff to latis
traps steels/ogre/don and booms on them. he can also band espeed against slak to revenge it. can really break apart the backbone especially against sand. a lot of the popular mons have flying/levitate so it makes dug suck a lot more
actually switches on ogre/tg sweepers unlike a lot of the fake special walls. natural cure lets her run lefties. also max evs lets her tank more phys hits than she should
pivoting doesn't exist yet outside of bp (which only jask can afford anyway) making psong wobb really put in work against walls. can target the mass fliers and levitators so he has a niche over dug. has the same moveslot problem as lugia

D Rank

ghost type with insomnia, how can you go wrong? max ev lets her take a hit from tg sweepers and revenge. since they all happen to be psychic, cb sball will ohko them. foolproof stop to non-sball slak. pretty good with jask support. just suffers from bad stats
bd espeed user that outspeeds gar. it's also neutral to cc so it's not as easy as it looks for steels to reversal him. has half the attack of slak so he obviously gets tanked easily. also he has to run sball for gar so spore's not an option unless you want to lose to every steel
agility t1 blast t2 is the only lead that actually stops jask from passing spe, and 180 spe psychic + boom lets it revenge. sucks against every other lead especially ttar
swift swim lets him outspeed slak in the rain and sd cc/boom. he needs support to sweep (ogre) which makes him a funny looking agg. he can fit on jaskless ogre structures that agg doesn't wanna be on

i spent a lot of time going over mons and don't think i forgot anything. there's some mons i thought about but decided they're too niche or fail at their job () so i didn't rank them. thanks for reading

Quick question, what do you think on Ludicolo and Gyarados? They're the only mons not mentioned here that I've seen used (other than Poliwrath and Shed but that's very understandable), so I'm curious.

 

[adriancosmoem]

Quick question, what do you think on Ludicolo and Gyarados? They're the only mons not mentioned here that I've seen used (other than Poliwrath and Shed but that's very understandable), so I'm curious.

i mean... does he do anything? like yes he beats ogre and don but celebi does that too with better stats and ability. tg is worse than tg ogre straight up. the only niche i see is 1v1ing cb deo-a but that's wayyyy too niche when you can't even switch in. 99% of the time you're putting celebi over this
ok i actually did remember this mon because he beats ogre + steels, but latis do it better since gyara dies to tg thunder and blast. i don't even think pump ohkoes agg? he's better against spore than latis but if you really want latis to do good against spore just slot sleep talk 4th, they can afford it. not really worth the rank