Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v4

Man I just reread my original post, and now I understand why I got the HaHa’s. I deserve those for writing that shit. I’ll leave it unedited cause it’s kinda funny lol

Edit: I guess I should try to clarify my original intent. Protect is not inherently broken, obviously. It is not fun to play against though, and I think that’s what I originally was trying to say. Unfun play patterns with broken mons is no good. I’ll stop posting now.

No sweat mate, I'm absolutely with you that sub/protect is miserable to play against. I flipped from no-ban to pro-ban on Kyurem after that set became a thing. Didn't make Req's though.
 
I don't think dropping Ice Punch will necessarily be a good move. There's still Great Tusk and Landorus-Therian, both of which have higher usage than Gliscor. Gunk Shot's poor accuracy is also a big downside.
I don't think Ice Punch helps much vs Great Tusk, while Lando can get chunked by a Guard Dog boost. More importantly, they are both much easier to wear down than Gliscor, which means scoring an OHKO or a big hit is less important. I think you'd run Poison Jab as your poison move for the consistency but I don't think 80% acc has ever been considered that bad, plus Okidogi can probably afford to miss given its bulk and what you need to hit Gunk against in the first place unless it's like Hatt.
 
Protect definitely isn’t the core of any issue with Kyurem or Gliscor, it’s their inherit (and infamous) qualities as Pokémon that allow them to turn it into an extremely annoying tool. Banning Protect shouldn’t be the move here.

For Kyurem, it isn’t just Protect. It also abuses Substitute for denying stuff from getting full damage on it, and those two moves combined with Pressure allow it to wear down its opponents really damn fast. Not to mention it’s carrying 125/90/90 bulk (101 HP Substitutes with just a little HP investment), 130 on both attacking stats, STAB on Freeze and access to Earth Power for a brainless clicking combo and Dragon Dance + Icicle Spear for even more infuriating PP stalling.

With Gliscor, Protect both serves as a scouting tool and even a pseudo-recovery move in combination with Poison Heal. Makes it worse staying in on Gliscor is just outright painful with it either clicking Toxic, Spikes, Earthquake, Knock Off, Swords Dance or Facade to put pressure onto you. Helps that a Ground/Flying typing makes you resist a lot while carrying 2 immunities.

It’s the fact that the two of them are essentially designed as bulky PP stall machines with strong offensive pressure that makes Protect so easy to abuse for them, Protect in of itself isn’t broken.

Maybe while they’re both still here, exploring Iron Boulder and Hyperspace Hole on Hoopa-U as anti-Protect clickers would be fun? Helps that the two of them also hard-check Iron Moth, Slowking-G, the Kanto birds and fat builds that Gliscor tends to be on. Like I know they’re niche and their existence doesn’t make Kyurem/Gliscor any less mind numbing to play against, but if you have a chance to build some heat that works well against the current meta/brokens I’d say go ahead and try it.
 
Last edited:
Slight correction: it adds nothing worthwhile to the tier, you either attack and the fatmon gets free recovery or you don't attack and the fatmon gets free recovery, and they can always just switch if if the matchup becomes unfavorable. It's an extremely brainless move that's a veritable win-win for the Protect user, there's a reason why Gliscor clicks protect if even the slightest chance of an attack is predicted on the first turn, people only notice the most egregious examples such as this; nobody has EVER said that the tier has been made more fun to play as a whole (not just for them) because of the existence of Protect
slight correction: Protect is only a win-win for the user if they're running recovery (see gliscor) and (here's the big one) they have a reason to rely on that free recovery and (here's an even bigger one) they're not standing in front of a mon with a setup move. There's a very good reason the only mons that run protect regularly are gliscor and kyurem (even on kyurem it's pretty niche)

In front of a 4 attack set, protect is generally a safe move. Even still they have the option to just switch out, so the fear of protect actually comes from the idea that they might click something other than protect. In the case of setup mons, that one turn of setup is enough to break the standstill with a gliscor and you can run away with the game. Most of the times protect is handing out momentum to your opponent so you REALLY want a return on that for it to be worth the moveslot.

Seriously. How the hell are you playing that you can't use your opponents protects against them. Do you just click super effective moves into whatever's in front of you or what?

edit: there's probably a few more mons that run protect (dondozo? blaziken?) but gliscor and kyurem are the two big annoyances because of it so i focused more on them.
 
Last edited:
I don't think Ice Punch helps much vs Great Tusk, while Lando can get chunked by a Guard Dog boost. More importantly, they are both much easier to wear down than Gliscor, which means scoring an OHKO or a big hit is less important. I think you'd run Poison Jab as your poison move for the consistency but I don't think 80% acc has ever been considered that bad, plus Okidogi can probably afford to miss given its bulk and what you need to hit Gunk against in the first place unless it's like Hatt.
To put things in perspective, I saw somewhere that you only have a 50% chance of hitting 3 80 acc moves on in a row. I will also take this chance to say that 95% accuracy is just dumb, make it 90 or 100 Game Freak, it’s not that hard.
 
Kyurem or Gliscor are hardly the biggest issues on the ladder imo. Especially considering they pretty much check each other. I also dont know why people even dislike stall this gen. Its barely viable.

Im around 1800s playing mostly stall because it has some of the most consistent lines and even then its basically impossible to gameplan against the different variations of HO that is basically the entire ladder now. I played for about 2 hours today and Id have to say 90% of the games was Samurott/Ghol/Gambit/Moth/Ground/sweeper shells.

I wouldnt call Samu broken necessarily but it along with Ghol can put so many teams in terrible situations off the rip. Plot Ghol with Psychock also destroys stall, necessitating a tera dark from Chansey just to not get instantly swept. Then the omni present Gambit can finesse wins out of nothing far too often. I initally was running speed creeping corv to deal with it but it would either get 5 fallen and go to the casino to fish for a crit, or have some odd tera that means I cant beat it. I eventually got tired of it and used to 220 speed corv with rocky ID/body press/roost/reflect.

This is all to make sure I dont lose to this one thing. Anything else is liable to lose to a crit, tera blast, dark/glasses etc.

And thats one pokemon from these cooker cutter HO shells. I can understand why people are primarily climbing with that because trying to defensively check shit is very difficult, so why not just try to strike first. Then get reverse swept by Gambit lol.

TLDR; HO in general is still king and I dont think Kyurem really is that big of a deal. Its just another setup sweeper, or easily checked by your special wall of choice. Especially with the ubiquitous nature of hazard stack/HO teams
 
Kyurem or Gliscor are hardly the biggest issues on the ladder imo. Especially considering they pretty much check each other. I also dont know why people even dislike stall this gen. Its barely viable.

Im around 1800s playing mostly stall because it has some of the most consistent lines and even then its basically impossible to gameplan against the different variations of HO that is basically the entire ladder now. I played for about 2 hours today and Id have to say 90% of the games was Samurott/Ghol/Gambit/Moth/Ground/sweeper shells.

I wouldnt call Samu broken necessarily but it along with Ghol can put so many teams in terrible situations off the rip. Plot Ghol with Psychock also destroys stall, necessitating a tera dark from Chansey just to not get instantly swept. Then the omni present Gambit can finesse wins out of nothing far too often. I initally was running speed creeping corv to deal with it but it would either get 5 fallen and go to the casino to fish for a crit, or have some odd tera that means I cant beat it. I eventually got tired of it and used to 220 speed corv with rocky ID/body press/roost/reflect.

This is all to make sure I dont lose to this one thing. Anything else is liable to lose to a crit, tera blast, dark/glasses etc.

And thats one pokemon from these cooker cutter HO shells. I can understand why people are primarily climbing with that because trying to defensively check shit is very difficult, so why not just try to strike first. Then get reverse swept by Gambit lol.

TLDR; HO in general is still king and I dont think Kyurem really is that big of a deal. Its just another setup sweeper, or easily checked by your special wall of choice. Especially with the ubiquitous nature of hazard stack/HO teams
Yeah threat saturation has been a consistent issue since at least DLC1. Threats like Kingambit are undeniable, and some Top players have been vocal about it.

That being said barring a survey that has the qualified player base label a mon like Kingambit or Ogerpon-W as the #1 threat; Gliscor is the next suspect, and should be talked about. If you don’t like it state your case on why Gliscor should stay, and prepare to get reqs when the time comes.
 
Yeah threat saturation has been a consistent issue since at least DLC1. Threats like Kingambit are undeniable, and some Top players have been vocal about it.

That being said barring a survey that has the qualified player base label a mon like Kingambit or Ogerpon-W as the #1 threat; Gliscor is the next suspect, and should be talked about. If you don’t like it state your case on why Gliscor should stay, and prepare to get reqs when the time comes.

Im fine with a Gliscor suspect. If I have the time or desire Ill get reqs but I dont really ever mind if something gets banned or doesnt. In any team I build its probably not at the top of the list of threats considering you probably will have a decent answer for it just by proxy of addressing the biggest offenders in the tier. I know it would never happen but something like a booster energy would do wonders for the general health of this tier.

Im usually not a stall player at all but I think its far more interesting to play it this gen since you really have to play fairly well to win a lot of mus. Gambit and Ghol are easily the two biggest threats to that style imo. Taunt Samu also just kind of destroys you too unless you like tera fairy sinistra or something. Its like a really nice puzzle figuring out how to deal with the variations of the exact same team over and over lol.

But stuff like that is more fun to me than banging my head with competing HO. No offense to the folks who like that.
 
Kyurem or Gliscor are hardly the biggest issues on the ladder imo. Especially considering they pretty much check each other. I also dont know why people even dislike stall this gen. Its barely viable.

Im around 1800s playing mostly stall because it has some of the most consistent lines and even then its basically impossible to gameplan against the different variations of HO that is basically the entire ladder now. I played for about 2 hours today and Id have to say 90% of the games was Samurott/Ghol/Gambit/Moth/Ground/sweeper shells.

I wouldnt call Samu broken necessarily but it along with Ghol can put so many teams in terrible situations off the rip. Plot Ghol with Psychock also destroys stall, necessitating a tera dark from Chansey just to not get instantly swept. Then the omni present Gambit can finesse wins out of nothing far too often. I initally was running speed creeping corv to deal with it but it would either get 5 fallen and go to the casino to fish for a crit, or have some odd tera that means I cant beat it. I eventually got tired of it and used to 220 speed corv with rocky ID/body press/roost/reflect.

This is all to make sure I dont lose to this one thing. Anything else is liable to lose to a crit, tera blast, dark/glasses etc.

And thats one pokemon from these cooker cutter HO shells. I can understand why people are primarily climbing with that because trying to defensively check shit is very difficult, so why not just try to strike first. Then get reverse swept by Gambit lol.

TLDR; HO in general is still king and I dont think Kyurem really is that big of a deal. Its just another setup sweeper, or easily checked by your special wall of choice. Especially with the ubiquitous nature of hazard stack/HO teams

Do any of the special walls beat sub/protect Kyurem? They all tend to look good then suddenly have no pp left in my experience.
 
Do any of the special walls beat sub/protect Kyurem? They all tend to look good then suddenly have no pp left in my experience.

you may have to burn tera but as long as you can force it out and maintain hazards eventually you will wear it down.

Blissey with CM straight up wins unless they are running some dumb shit like body press.

Sp Def Covert Cloak Corv always wins

AV Hatterne wins. Psychic noise beats subs and draining kiss will heal off damage.

Sp def Normal SD Scor wins and can even be a wincon

Im sure there are more but thats just off the top of my head. Biggest issue is the freeze chance but hax is a part of the game so shrug. You will dont need to beat it straight up. If it doesnt lead you can rush hazards and make the game awkward for it.
 
Back
Top