Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v4

IM BACK BITCHESSSS

to dunk on seraphyde

R*pid Sp*n is top 3 cheapest moves in the game and I don’t want to have to deal with yet another dipshit mon speed boosting and removing hazards at the same time. Whoever at GameFreak decided that R*pid Sp*n should give you a speed boost needs to be put out to pasture.
this post sponsored by gholdengo inc.

no but anyways what. "cheapest moves" brother go to a ghost type or a contact punisher it is so easy you just refuse to actually try solutions and instead you complain
 
my brother in christ. first, you complain about Choice Scarf. Then Rapid Spin. Now you're saying that I can switch my Great Tusk in on a Gholdengo or my Iron Treads in on a Zamazenta and let it use "the third most annoying move in the game". Is there anything remotely healthy? Please? Guys?
i'd like to ask seraphyde if he believes anything is genuinely healthy lmao

i think he just likes to complain which tbh is totally fair, it's just annoying when he expects his post-hax complaining takes to actually be accepted by the community at large

(also sorry for doubleposting guys!! wont do it again)
 
brother go to a ghost type or a contact punisher it is so easy you just refuse to actually try solutions and instead you complain
Great Tusk used Knock Off
a contact punisher
Not every team archetype can fit a contact punisher, only one that comes to mind for HO for instance is Mora which gets pummeled by Headlong Rush. If the fucker is dumb enough to click Rapid Spin you can punish it with DGleam but Tusk still claims a pyrrhic victory by managing to remove hazards. Same thing with H-Samu, you can Razor Shell and drop defense to kill with priority but you still have to go to the trouble of Edging Ceaselessly on the opponent again. Tusk isn't broken but it's really fucking annoying because, as I said earlier, it has the raw power and bulk to spin in the face of anything and defeat Ghosts (or force a Tera) with its coverage. It would be less annoying if Rapid Spin didn't give the speed boost as you could still out-offense it but a speed boosted Great Tusk is nearly impossible to out-offense without either priority or a speed boost of your own.
 
Great Tusk used Knock Off

Not every team archetype can fit a contact punisher, only one that comes to mind for HO for instance is Mora which gets pummeled by Headlong Rush. If the fucker is dumb enough to click Rapid Spin you can punish it with DGleam but Tusk still claims a pyrrhic victory by managing to remove hazards. Same thing with H-Samu, you can Razor Shell and drop defense to kill with priority but you still have to go to the trouble of Edging Ceaselessly on the opponent again. Tusk isn't broken but it's really fucking annoying because, as I said earlier, it has the raw power and bulk to spin in the face of anything and defeat Ghosts (or force a Tera) with its coverage. It would be less annoying if Rapid Spin didn't give the speed boost as you could still out-offense it but a speed boosted Great Tusk is nearly impossible to out-offense without either priority or a speed boost of your own.
what

w-what

araquanid

ribombee

gholdengo

dragonite

iron valiant

roaring moon (bulky tground roost beats it which is picking up a lot as of late)

anything that clicks tera and can revenge or encore spin or something (bolt, gambit, everything else)

if you are playing HO and auto-lose when Great Tusk clicks rapid spin then i genuinely don't know what to tell you
 
In an era where we have the most stupidly overpowered (in terms of ability to remove hazards) hazard removal ever seen I find it hilarious that people are still mad about this. No, you do not get to complain about spikes when all it takes to remove hazards is to throw Great Tusk or Iron Treads at literally fucking whatever is in the way.
modcheck1.gif

overpowered? hazard removal overpowered in gen 9? is anyone seeing this
 
Great Tusk used Knock Off

Not every team archetype can fit a contact punisher, only one that comes to mind for HO for instance is Mora which gets pummeled by Headlong Rush. If the fucker is dumb enough to click Rapid Spin you can punish it with DGleam but Tusk still claims a pyrrhic victory by managing to remove hazards. Same thing with H-Samu, you can Razor Shell and drop defense to kill with priority but you still have to go to the trouble of Edging Ceaselessly on the opponent again. Tusk isn't broken but it's really fucking annoying because, as I said earlier, it has the raw power and bulk to spin in the face of anything and defeat Ghosts (or force a Tera) with its coverage. It would be less annoying if Rapid Spin didn't give the speed boost as you could still out-offense it but a speed boosted Great Tusk is nearly impossible to out-offense without either priority or a speed boost of your own.
so are you going for a custom title or a banner or what
 
 
Not every team archetype can fit a contact punisher,
Most can, and hey, rocky helmet is right there that 7 OU mons can use effectively (I've even seen stuff like rocky helmet glowking and hatterene). The only playstyle is HO, which y'know, its whole job is to stop spinning.
If the fucker is dumb enough to click Rapid Spin you can punish it with DGleam but Tusk still claims a pyrrhic victory by managing to remove hazards.
Cool, maybe don't lead glimmora every game? And if you are taking down one of there best physical walls, I would say that's a trade worth taking as every physical sweeper (gambit, wink, wink, nudge, nudge) gets a lot scarier.
Same thing with H-Samu, you can Razor Shell and drop defense to kill with priority but you still have to go to the trouble of Edging Ceaselessly on the opponent again.
Cool, so you take down there physical wall. Good trade tbh. And you still have priority to chip something else or get off a Ceaseless Edge.
Also please don't every call Ceaseless Edge that, I swear to god actually don't say that shit again.
Tusk isn't broken but it's really fucking annoying because, as I said earlier, it has the raw power and bulk to spin in the face of anything and defeat Ghosts (or force a Tera) with its coverage.
And that's alright???? Like shit, maybe things are allowed to get rid of hazards. Maybe that's whats been the case for idk, since rapid spin existed? All the spinblockers can heavily damage tusk in return, pult burns it, ghold hits it really hard with even just make it rain, skele also burns it (but even still it can switch to a ground immune like enam), sinistcha can matcha gotcha it and is a great spinblocker, ceruledge can use it as a setup opporunity with focus sash, pecharunt doesn't care about headlong as it does like 50% for fast sets (which outspeed tusk).
It would be less annoying if Rapid Spin didn't give the speed boost as you could still out-offense it but a speed boosted Great Tusk is nearly impossible to out-offense without either priority or a speed boost of your own.
And why don't you have priority or speed control of your own???? Unless your using webs, which both of the webbers beat it, you should have speed control. I honestly find it hard to not have speed control when all of moth, valiant, d-nite, gambit (can tera to iron head it regardless), darkrai, treads, rillaboom and lokix are all good options for teams. This honestly just seems like you are making bad HO, that is rightfully getting destroyed by tusk because you don't account for it enough (which means a lot of other mons are going to destroy it regardless).

Anything to not let the stupid dolphin come back to OU (I almost called it a fish, which would be very concerning, guess I have Chi Yu on my mind).
 
I meant stellar ban for everything -for- the turtle to then be viable in OU. Since that would be, by my understanding of smogon dogma, less complex than banning the use of stellar for the turtle alone.

With Tera blast banned, stellar tera type would hardly be missed.

Just talking here
Terapagos is locked into stellar as it's only tera type the same way the ogerpon forms are, you can't change it's tera type in the builder (or in cartrige for that matter). If tera stellar were banned it would be impossible to unban any form of Terapagos because it has to select Stellar as its tera type; It would be the same situation as DPP Froslass and Snow Cloak.

Also tera stellar expert belt 4 attacks valiant is the coolest val set imo
 
This is basically it. There's no reason to use a low tier shitmon to check Gambit when you can use Zamazenta, and even if you quad resist Dark, well Val already does that.
The meta is self-contained and exclusive, since everything good is already in OU and there's not much reason to use something outside of it (besides a few UU and UUBL mons like Crown and Lokix, and of course Araquanid).

TBH, I feel we need to discard some of the old way of thinking. We have 1000 Pokemon, and around EIGHTY are in ZU, with 60 in Ubers. We're desperately in need of new tiers, and the OU metagame for big shots can only accept 20 guys at most.

The OU we used to know is now UU, and there's nothing we can do to prevent it. As more mons are added, the old picks will fall down because the tiers stay the same size but the mon pool is growing. We just have to accept that, and either add tiers above OU, or tiers below ZU to accommodate the shift.
I couldnt have said this better, OU isnt OU as we know it, its like, HU (Hyperused) and then UU is OU and so on and so forth.

I know it'll never happen tho but thats kinda how my mind thinks of these tiers nowadays hey
 
Lowkey if we're talking about unhealthy shit in the OU Metagame, I gotta shout out Booster Energy as one of the worst items to ever be brought forth into the OU metagame. Shit is so fucking cheap oml. The drawback is supposed to be that its a consumable, but that drawback doesn't matter at all for HO cuz u never want to switch mons out anyway. And it enables the fuck out of the most annoying ass mons in this meta. By definition, it ain't broken, but my god, would this tier be so much more fun if I didn't have to see Booster Val or Booster Roaring Goon anymore.

Speaking of which, we need more Roaring Goon haters in this thread. Mon is the cheapest pokemon in existence, literally carries the fuck out of anyone that chooses to use it. (The only mon that even rivals that shit is Para-Fishing Jirachi in DPP or like Togekiss but thats cuz they abuse RNG). And that's saying something when this tier got cheap-ass mons like Gambit and Zamazenta. It and Iron Moth gotta be my biggest banes whenever i see those stupid web teams on the ladder. The only reason I would ever support a Palafin unban is to gut-punch this lizard bastard out my screen when it teras.

The biggest issue with this tier isn't just the fact that these mons are unhealthy, its the fact that all of them are so damn easy to use. No Skill. No Thought. Just Click DDance with the Goon and collect ur free wins. We gotta add a new tiering dimension to Uncompetitive in the Tiering Framework and call that shit No Skill. Cuz Moon ain't uncompetitive but it fr ain't a skillful mon.

Just so this post doesn't end with all negativity, y'all gotta try out Scizor. Anyone telling you Scizor is washed is out of their mind. Priority Tera Steel Bullet Punch comes in so damn clutch against those annoying HO Squads, and having a U-Turn/Knock bot with actual defensive utility unlike Lokix is actually hella clutch.
 
Lowkey if we're talking about unhealthy shit in the OU Metagame, I gotta shout out Booster Energy as one of the worst items to ever be brought forth into the OU metagame. Shit is so fucking cheap oml. The drawback is supposed to be that its a consumable, but that drawback doesn't matter at all for HO cuz u never want to switch mons out anyway. And it enables the fuck out of the most annoying ass mons in this meta. By definition, it ain't broken, but my god, would this tier be so much more fun if I didn't have to see Booster Val or Booster Roaring Goon anymore.
i agree moon is stupid as hell but jesus christ people, give up on the booster energy narrative already. no one's buying it. let's take a look at the data, in simple visual form, to figure out why:
definitely broken
:flutter mane::iron bundle::gouging fire:
arguably broken
:roaring moon:
probably not broken but i got my eye on these motherfuckers if they try anything funny
:iron valiant::raging bolt:
definitely not broken
:great tusk::scream tail::brute bonnet::slither wing::sandy shocks::walking wake::iron treads::iron hands::iron jugulis::iron moth::iron thorns::iron leaves::iron boulder::iron crown:
so, even if i'm extremely generous and assume that all of the first three categories are broken (they aren't) and that booster energy is the single shared element breaking all of them (it isn't), that's still six data points against fourteen. you're outnumbered more than two to one in the absolute best case for your argument

now if we factor in that flutter is obviously still broken without booster, bundle didn't even use booster, and neither valiant nor bolt are particularly problematic right now, we have exactly two cases left: roaring moon and gouging fire. booster energy played a role in the gouging fire ban, certainly, but would i say it was the thing that caused the ban? jury's still out on that one. and frankly, we've had enough argument about gouging fire to last a lifetime so let's not let the jury back in. (don't worry, all the jurors have coats and stuff, they'll be fine. if anything it's probably nice for them to get a breath of fresh air instead of being cooped up in the courthouse all day)

and then there's this asshole. roaring moon. angry boomerang. spicy croissant. the prequel to the sequel to salamence. marvel's what if they gave garchomp dragon dance. whatever you want to call it, it's definitely a fucker, and i for one would be very glad to see it go. and yes, this one is exclusively because of booster energy. but arguing for a booster energy ban just to deal with one mon is overkill. worse, unlike rage fist and a handful of other examples, this has actually relevant crossfire—a ban of booster energy would hurt great tusk in a meta that's entirely held together by great tusk, and it hurts treads a pretty significant amount too. couldn't we rather, i dunno, ban the one single mon that booster energy is breaking and leave the other dozen or so alone? i'm under no illusion that a roaring moon ban is ever going to happen as much as i want it to, but it's definitely more sensible than a booster energy ban, so why not argue for that instead?
 
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i agree moon is stupid as hell but jesus christ people, give up on the booster energy narrative already. no one's buying it. let's take a look at the data, in simple visual form, to figure out why:
definitely broken
:flutter mane::iron bundle::gouging fire:
arguably broken
:roaring moon:
probably not broken but i got my eye on these motherfuckers if they try anything funny
:iron valiant::raging bolt:
definitely not broken
:great tusk::scream tail::brute bonnet::slither wing::sandy shocks::walking wake::iron treads::iron hands::iron jugulis::iron moth::iron thorns::iron leaves::iron boulder::iron crown:
so, even if i'm extremely generous and assume that all of the first three categories are broken (they aren't) and that booster energy is the single shared element breaking all of them (it isn't), that's still six data points against fourteen. you're outnumbered more than two to one in the absolute best case for your argument

now if we factor in that flutter is obviously still broken without booster, bundle didn't even use booster, and neither valiant nor bolt are particularly problematic right now, we have exactly two cases left: roaring moon and gouging fire. booster energy played a role in the gouging fire ban, certainly, but would i say it was the thing that caused the ban? jury's still out on that one. and frankly, we've had enough argument about gouging fire to last a lifetime so let's not let the jury back in. (don't worry, all the jurors have coats and stuff, they'll be fine. if anything it's probably nice for them to get a breath of fresh air instead of being cooped up in the courthouse all day)

and then there's this asshole. roaring moon. angry boomerang. spicy croissant. the prequel to the sequel to salamence. marvel's what if they gave garchomp dragon dance. whatever you want to call it, it's definitely a fucker, and i for one would be very glad to see it go. and yes, this one is exclusively because of booster energy. but arguing for a booster energy ban just to deal with one mon is overkill. worse, unlike rage fist and a handful of other examples, this has actually relevant crossfire—a ban of booster energy would hurt great tusk in a meta that's entirely held together by great tusk, and it hurts treads a pretty significant amount too. couldn't we rather, i dunno, ban the one single mon that booster energy is breaking and leave the other dozen or so alone? i'm under no illusion that a roaring moon ban is ever going to happen as much as i want it to, but it's definitely more sensible than a booster energy ban, so why not argue for that instead?
Is walking wake "definitely" not broken now? I basically agree but it was suspected and the narrative at the time was strong. It does 2hko nearly everything. Was adding woger enough to move it to definitely? Can it have the same affect on Palafin?

I don't want a palafin test rn I'm just making an observation. I do believe the narratives of the banned get too strong. I suspect had walking wake got banned it would be tough to get people to consider a retest for it.

Booster ban would neuter offense. That plus attack is what allows things to beat unaware mons they often typically could not. I'm not in favor of this but I understand why some people would be.
 
IM BACK BITCHESSSS

to dunk on seraphyde
WOOOOOOOOOOO
8ekpjn.jpg

Anyway I completely agree that booster energy should be banned. I personally don't see pokemon like roaring moon (dragonite is better imo) and raging bolt as broken but it is booster energy that makes them so egregious to many people in the first place.

Also I got a cool little conspiracy. If booster energy is banned that means that dumb urchin thing that I forget the name of will be used more to set electric terrain. That means ice spinner could be used more to end terrain early. And guess who learns ice spinner?

d5c9qav-b59c2254-9d94-4445-aa62-76f772c480fa.jpg

(Dragonite is my favorite pokemon btw so :D)
 
WOOOOOOOOOOO
View attachment 696626
Anyway I completely agree that booster energy should be banned. I personally don't see pokemon like roaring moon (dragonite is better imo) and raging bolt are broken but it is booster energy that makes them so egregious to many people in the first place.

Also I got a cool little conspiracy. If booster energy is banned that means that dumb urchin thing that I forget the name of will be used more to set electric terrain. That means ice spinner could be used more to end terrain early. And guess who learns ice spinner?

View attachment 696628
(Dragonite is my favorite pokemon btw so :D)
I think they should ban everything except Toxapex and Mareanie because I like them :3

Also what

Booster is not broken

It broke approximately zero mons

All three banned paradoxes would be banned without booster
 
Pincurchin is indeed bad, but not nearly as bad as people make it look. Scald, Recover, Spikes, Discarge coupled with not the worst bulk. It supports some of the best OU Mons (and also Alolan Raichu), which is not a bad niche. Its main problem is Rillaboom (who removes Terrain), Kyurem (Sub + Protect Stalls out Terrain), poisoned Gliscor (has Protect to Stall Terrain), Raging Bolt (broken Mon that abuses Terrain) and Garganacl (immune to Status, has Recover and sometines Protect) switching in for free, so if any of those is present (very likely) , Pincurchin almost never can stay to attack and risky switches must be made to make the Terrain work.
 
Pincurchin is indeed bad, but not nearly as bad as people make it look. Scald, Recover, Spikes, Discarge coupled with not the worst bulk. It supports some of the best OU Mons (and also Alolan Raichu), which is not a bad niche. Its main problem is Rillaboom (who removes Terrain), Kyurem (Sub + Protect Stalls out Terrain), poisoned Gliscor (has Protect to Stall Terrain), Raging Bolt (broken Mon that abuses Terrain) and Garganacl (immune to Status, has Recover and sometines Protect) switching in for free, so if any of those is present (very likely) , Pincurchin almost never can stay to attack and risky switches must be made to make the Terrain work.
It not getting back Rising Voltage while Raging Bolt is the only user of it currently is a huge detriment.
 
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