Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v4

JackRG said:
You literally funded over a third of the test.
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Sure did. I have been around a long time and a lot of people have reacted to my posts, which includes you many times! But we still had over 350k likes from others.

For reference, nothing prior to this year got over 70k likes collected and even including this year nothing else got over 100k likes collected. In those pools, individual people have contributed a third or more. Why is this different? Why is this unfair? It’s literally the point of the project. Don’t like it? Get more people to react to your posts and campaign for something else. That’s the beauty of it.
 
UltraSword said:
They say his elo is 3 sizes too small. (Jk)
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IMG_8937.jpeg

and what happened then? why, in ou-ville, they say
that the finch's small elo grew three sizes that day
and then the true meaning of suspects shone through
and the whos tested palafin back into ou
 
AerionT said:
Metagame health not correlated with player engament or something like that, surely applicable to Smogon meta health
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Players engage with suspects. Players engage with a likeshop. Players play the metagame and determine outcomes. This is arguably the most transparent and visible suspect we have ever had.

Is it as “scientific” or “conventional” as a normal suspect? Nope, but it took the largest campaign in the site’s history to get here and it still will be up to suspect voters.

Above all of this, it’s been approved by other tier leaders, forum staff, etc. I notice you aren’t complaining about RU offering the same or other tiering prizes. I think you just gotta accept that things can be different sometimes.

Have a great day
 
I don’t understand why people are against the likeshop suspect. This is a game, so if people want to unban something for fun (because games are meant to be fun) they have the right to do so. And it’s not like it’s an autodrop. It still needs 60% unban votes on the suspect, and even if it gets unbanned it can just get rebanned if it’s broken. Let’s just stop worrying and complaining guys. Go play some OMs or something if you’re tired of OU.
 
Finchinator said:
Above all of this, it’s been approved by other tier leaders, forum staff, etc. I notice you aren’t complaining about RU offering the same or other tiering prizes. I think you just gotta accept that things can be different sometimes.
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This might sound unbelievable but I haven't complained about RU because I don't play RU and I have no idea about what's happening in RU. I still think this is the wrong way to do things.

Merry Christmas.
 
Alternator said:
It REALLY doesn't have all the coverage you could ever ask for.

Normal - Body Slam, Facade. Water/Normal is good neutral coverage, but Body Slam without STAB isn't strong enough to go this route. Facade is an interesting tech, but hard to fit.

Fighting - Close Combat, Drain Punch. While not as good for neutral coverage as the above, either much higher BP or a better secondary effect means you don't care. Tera Fighting is also better on a fatty than Tera Normal, since it answers Kingambit.

Ice - Ice Punch. The best move available for Dragonite or Sinischa, and useful for Gliscor and Lando-T if you're not running Wave Crash. Sets without Wave Crash tend to be setup, though, and will greatly struggle to fit it.

Dragon - Outrage. Powerful, but very risky to lock into.

Dark - Throat Chop. Not the worst move, but doesn't have great synergy with Water/Fighting coverage. An option for Sinischa, but Ice Punch has better secondary targets than Throat Chop.

Psychic - Zen Headbutt. Again, not a bad move, but doesn't really hit anything important.


Every Palafin is going to run Water/Fighting, but after that it's pretty middling. Other than Outrage, everything else tops out at 80 BP, and Outrage is a very risky move to lock into. What Palafin does have is a strong utility pool, headlined by Bulk Up, Taunt, Substitute, and Encore, and Water/Fighting is pretty great neutral coverage to safely run the utility stuff.



Virtually all Palafin sets are going to carry Fighting coverage, as both Close Combat (for immediate power) or Drain Punch (for the stallbreaker set) are great moves. Jet Punch is actually somewhat hard to fit on offensive sets that aren't Choice Band.
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I wouldn’t discount Palafin’s Special movepool at all either, especially because of it having a pretty usable SpA stat at 106. Yeah, Physical sets are gonna remain supreme thanks to that 160 Atk + Bulk Up, but access to Ice Beam / Grass Knot / Boomburst (for some reason) gives the thing some flexibility. Grass Knot’s probably the best of these options besides the occasional Boomburst gimmick set for if it wants to hit opposing bulky Waters harder.

0 SpA Palafin-Hero Grass Knot (120 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Dondozo: 256-302 (50.7 - 59.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

48 SpA Palafin-Hero Grass Knot (60 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Alomomola: 178-210 (33.3 - 39.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

Not even with Life Orb. I know, Encore and Taunt shut these two down anyways, but I just wanted to highlight how wide this thing’s movepool is anyways. The anti-bulky-Water-type Water-type.
 
EpicGuy321 said:
I don’t understand why people are against the likeshop suspect. This is a game, so if people want to unban something for fun (because games are meant to be fun) they have the right to do so. And it’s not like it’s an autodrop. It still needs 60% unban votes on the suspect, and even if it gets unbanned it can just get rebanned if it’s broken. Let’s just stop worrying and complaining guys. Go play some OMs or something if you’re tired of OU.
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Because this is delaying actually serious tests like tera blast
 
SDK03 said:
I wouldn’t discount Palafin’s Special movepool at all either, especially because of it having a pretty usable SpA stat at 106. Yeah, Physical sets are gonna remain supreme thanks to that 160 Atk + Bulk Up, but access to Ice Beam / Grass Knot / Boomburst (for some reason) gives the thing some flexibility. Grass Knot’s probably the best of these options besides the occasional Boomburst gimmick set for if it wants to hit opposing bulky Waters harder.

0 SpA Palafin-Hero Grass Knot (120 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Dondozo: 256-302 (50.7 - 59.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

48 SpA Palafin-Hero Grass Knot (60 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Alomomola: 178-210 (33.3 - 39.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

Not even with Life Orb. I know, Encore and Taunt shut these two down anyways, but I just wanted to highlight how wide this thing’s movepool is anyways. The anti-bulky-Water-type Water-type.
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The problem with the special sets is that you end up carrying the move for one, maybe two, mons, and you have to drop something essential to carry it.

Let's take the Grass Knot example. The standard stallbreaker set is Jet Punch/Drain Punch/Bulk Up/Taunt.

If you drop Jet Punch, then Palafin becomes worse than deadweight into most HO - it's an active liability, since you give up one free turn to activate Zero to Hero, and then Drain Punch/Grass Knot coverage means it's a setup opportunity due to not posing much attacking threat. This is obviously not worth the tradeoff.

If you drop Drain Punch, then you're relying solely on Leftovers for healing, and that hurts both the fat matchup (your ability to outlast enemies is severely compromised) and you've made Gliscor a much bigger problem; you need to keep Taunting it to prevent Toxic, which means Poison Heal can continue to heal up, and you aren't healing off the Earthquakes all that well.

If you drop Bulk Up, then stall doesn't even need Dondozo, you're not powerful enough to break through the rest of the fatties due to the low BP of your moves. Even Talonflame can switch in to threaten the burn, and +0 Jet Punch tops out at 60.7%, so it can safely Roost off the hit, and Talonflame is one of the least naturally bulky things on a stall team.

If you drop Taunt, then you're vulnerable to status. Eat a Toxic or a Burn and Palafin's ability to stallbreak is over, or even risk a Tera Fighting Dondozo starting to Curse up and sweep.

On top of all that, by running an Spa-neutral nature, you've had to weaken Palafin's bulk, which is one of this set's greatest assets, and so you're worse into everything that isn't stall.
 
Alternator said:
The problem with the special sets is that you end up carrying the move for one, maybe two, mons, and you have to drop something essential to carry it.

Let's take the Grass Knot example. The standard stallbreaker set is Jet Punch/Drain Punch/Bulk Up/Taunt.

If you drop Jet Punch, then Palafin becomes worse than deadweight into most HO - it's an active liability, since you give up one free turn to activate Zero to Hero, and then Drain Punch/Grass Knot coverage means it's a setup opportunity due to not posing much attacking threat. This is obviously not worth the tradeoff.

If you drop Drain Punch, then you're relying solely on Leftovers for healing, and that hurts both the fat matchup (your ability to outlast enemies is severely compromised) and you've made Gliscor a much bigger problem; you need to keep Taunting it to prevent Toxic, which means Poison Heal can continue to heal up, and you aren't healing off the Earthquakes all that well.

If you drop Bulk Up, then stall doesn't even need Dondozo, you're not powerful enough to break through the rest of the fatties due to the low BP of your moves. Even Talonflame can switch in to threaten the burn, and +0 Jet Punch tops out at 60.7%, so it can safely Roost off the hit, and Talonflame is one of the least naturally bulky things on a stall team.

If you drop Taunt, then you're vulnerable to status. Eat a Toxic or a Burn and Palafin's ability to stallbreak is over, or even risk a Tera Fighting Dondozo starting to Curse up and sweep.

On top of all that, by running an Spa-neutral nature, you've had to weaken Palafin's bulk, which is one of this set's greatest assets, and so you're worse into everything that isn't stall.
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I agree that running Special attacks isn’t optimal cause it immediately gives Palafin 4MSS for the 3 other moves it wishes to run, but I was mainly talking on niche cases.
 
MasterPlayer said:
I don't know about you guys, but I actually find the circumstances behind the Palafin suspect a bit suspicious
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heh, suspicious, nice pun

but no. these are frankly some of the least suspicious circumstances behind a suspect test in modern memory. think of how suspects have historically happened:

back in ye olden dayes, the council would just privately decide on its own, with minimal or no input from the public, what to test. that system was very prone to abuse if the council wanted to force a suspect—they could just say "we decided to suspect this thing" and you couldn't do anything about it

nowadays we have surveys, which are perfectly fine right now but in theory could be abused because survey results aren't publicly accessible, so we're relying on whoever tallies up the votes to be truthful. theoretically, if a council (not this one) were super super corrupt, they could lie about a survey's results to justify a bogus suspect. to be clear, this has never happened and i don't expect it to ever happen, i don't mean to cast doubt about past or future suspects or the survey process, i'm just pointing out that the system is not entirely transparent and therefore in theory is abusable

but the likeshop is entirely public. everyone's purchases are out there for everyone to see, and it all adds up. this is the only instance where we can truly, unequivocally guarantee that there was no fuckery in the process
 
first thoughts:
1) i am not laddering on this shitty ass ladder
2) the tone shift from "oh pala will be a great addition to OU" to "....... what have we done" was so fucking funny. you could witness it in real time as everybody realized how fucked we all were. the DNBers are still clinging to their arguments but i think this vote was over before it was begun.

let this be a lesson to all [insert mon] unban posts. sure, solgaleo, palafin, and magearna may be harmless and fun additions to the metagame. whether something's broken in theory has nothing to do with how broken it is in practice.

i can't wait to see this suspect unfold. ban, Ban, BAN. and stop talking about unbanning some random uber RU shitters.
 
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