No problem, the updated evs are nice. It's not really meant to be the only Woger answer anyway; it's just a bit extra to help cover other big threats; it's mostly for Palafin.
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Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v4
- Thread starter TPP
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it's specifically unbans of quickbanned things that require 50%. unbans of things that were banned via suspect still require the 60% supermajority. this is probably because it's much easier to quickban something than suspect it, so in the interest of fairness they're also making it slightly easier to unban
i do think a discussion should be had, though, about lowering the ban (and unban) threshold specifically for things that have been suspected or tested down more than once
If council bans something and then retests it, then the council ban can be used to manipulate the threshold needed for something to remain in the tier/be banned. Think about it: if we just suspect X Pokemon, it needs 60% to get banned. If we ban something and then retest it, then it would’ve needed 60% to return to the tier — flipping the entire status quo causing that much of a deviation was a huge issue with Melmetal last generation.
Well after yesterday which was my first full day of palafin being unbanned here are my thoughts on not only palafin in general but also the life orb set I tried to use specifically.
When it comes to general sets choice band is both the scariest yet most easily exploitable set due to its immediate power that comes at the cost of being locked into moves something certain pokemon can take advantage of.
I have only seen bulk up like one or 2 times (though to be fair I am kind of low ladder) but I think it is pretty good. However the problem with the bulk up sets in my opinion is that it suffers from 4mss due to having 3 moves (taunt bulk up and jet punch) being locked in which leaves you room for only 1 coverage move which is usually guaranteed to be fighting anyway (seriously if jellicent was here it would be an almost perfect counter to this set).
Mixed sets with throat spray and boomburst do seem really good since they give room for what is basically Palafin's best way to deal with a certain pokemon (which will be talked about later) without tera blast. However due to these sets being relatively new I am not sure how good they will be and I have heard far less about them than the 2 major sets.
That leaves the set I have been attempting to pioneer which is a completely bulky set (as in no speed investment) with life orb as the item. This is what the set looks like as of now.
Palafin @ Life Orb
Ability: Zero to Hero
Tera Type: Dragon
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Jet Punch
- Drain Punch
- Zen Headbutt
- Tera Blast
There are a couple reasons I have chosen these moves specifically but to explain that I must go through how this set developed. It first started with zen headbutt actually being flip turn so that I could pivot out as regular Palafin. However due to the slower nature of this Palafin I decided to replace it with throat chop for coverage. The problem with doing this was that throat chop wasn't very good for this version of Palafin due to me not being faster than ghold and dragapult actually being so good against this set that throat chop wouldn't have saved me (something I will explain later).
Now to explain the moves. Jet punch and fighting coverage was obvious but the reason I chose drain punch was because as a bulky mon that wants longevity having life orb makes that a little harder. Due to that longevity though I could use drain punch over close combat as not only a healing move but also as a fighting move that doesn't lower my defense and special defense every time I use it. Zen headbutt beats water absorb clodsire and pecharunt but the main reason I chose it was because it seemed like a better coverage move than throat chop and because the dark immunity would be covered by drain punch.
The reason I chose tera dragon as both the tera and the last move was because tera dragon flips Palafin's weaknesses on its head while also giving it chip against a certain pokemon for one turn and maybe a winning match up if that pokemon doesn't bring play rough. Tera blast dragon is also a good coverage move since it hits all the dragon in the tier harder than ice punch would (except dragonite and garchomp if you think it is ou worthy) without the drawbacks of outrage. It also hits most of the tier for good neutral damage with fairy and steel types being covered with Palafin's other moves.
Palafin does have quite a few weaknesses that keep it at least a little bit grounded. First off if you have seen me not mentioning a pokemon's name it is because I wanted to save talking about it for this part specifically. Ogerpon wellspring is by far the biggest counter to Palafin. It easily beats the choice band sets due to Palafin being locked into a move and even if it isn't a water move Wogerpon has the bulk to survive one close combat which allows it to then easily fire back with a...powerful power whip. Bulk up is a little bit harder for Wogerpon but as long as it comes in fast enough it is easily able to stop Palafin with a power whip to the face. Mixed seems like the best option due to Palafin actually being able to use a move that Wogerpon is weak to but Palafin is slower so it is a similar idea to the bulk up set. When it came to my life orb set my solution for Wogerpon was to use tera dragon to tank a power whip to then hit Wogerpon with tera blast dragon (which takes away just over half of its health) and then switch out the next turn to Zapdos to hopefully get it paralyzed from static. Besides acrobatics the only way Palafin can actually deal with Wogerpon is with tera blast flying poison or bug which can beat it but then leaves Wogerpon more defensively vulnerable especially in the case of flying which is still weak to electric.
As for other big checks/counters Rillaboom seems pretty good due to it having a priority grass move and easily tanking jet punch (banded or not). However it does have to be careful of tera since most of Palafin's best teras deal with that grass weakness. Sinistcha could also be pretty good as it also easily tanks jet punch and is even immune to fighting coverage but similar to da monkey it also worries about Palafin's tera. Zapdos might be pretty solid due to it being able to tank the fighting coverage and probably roost off jet punch while threatening paralysis in return but it is deathly afraid of a banded wave crash which it will definitely not be surviving. Finally at least in my experience with the life orb set I actually found Dragapult to be pretty good into Palafin as its dragon typing allows it to actually take jet punch relatively well and be immune to fighting coverage. While it is weak to tera blast dragon unlike the others Dragapult actually runs dragon moves (while being faster than Palafin) and with or without being tera dragon draco meteor/dragon darts hits Palafin really hard. Even if Dragapult doesn't try to outright kill Palafin it could burn Palafin which effectively does kill Palafin due to it being way too weak now to actually do meaningful damage. I am not sure how good Dragapult will be against other sets but I think Palafin has a legitimate reason to fear it. There are other checks/counters too but I feel these are some of the best ones that aren't just Wogerpon.
As for general thoughts I think Palafin is ok for the moment. It is ludicrously strong of course but it does have legitimate counterplay which gives it a reason to stay in ou. For now I think it should be unbanned but it is far too early to tell and it isn't clear yet whether this counterplay is legitimate or if it is a sign of Palafin wrapping the meta around itself.
When it comes to general sets choice band is both the scariest yet most easily exploitable set due to its immediate power that comes at the cost of being locked into moves something certain pokemon can take advantage of.
I have only seen bulk up like one or 2 times (though to be fair I am kind of low ladder) but I think it is pretty good. However the problem with the bulk up sets in my opinion is that it suffers from 4mss due to having 3 moves (taunt bulk up and jet punch) being locked in which leaves you room for only 1 coverage move which is usually guaranteed to be fighting anyway (seriously if jellicent was here it would be an almost perfect counter to this set).
Mixed sets with throat spray and boomburst do seem really good since they give room for what is basically Palafin's best way to deal with a certain pokemon (which will be talked about later) without tera blast. However due to these sets being relatively new I am not sure how good they will be and I have heard far less about them than the 2 major sets.
That leaves the set I have been attempting to pioneer which is a completely bulky set (as in no speed investment) with life orb as the item. This is what the set looks like as of now.
Palafin @ Life Orb
Ability: Zero to Hero
Tera Type: Dragon
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Jet Punch
- Drain Punch
- Zen Headbutt
- Tera Blast
There are a couple reasons I have chosen these moves specifically but to explain that I must go through how this set developed. It first started with zen headbutt actually being flip turn so that I could pivot out as regular Palafin. However due to the slower nature of this Palafin I decided to replace it with throat chop for coverage. The problem with doing this was that throat chop wasn't very good for this version of Palafin due to me not being faster than ghold and dragapult actually being so good against this set that throat chop wouldn't have saved me (something I will explain later).
Now to explain the moves. Jet punch and fighting coverage was obvious but the reason I chose drain punch was because as a bulky mon that wants longevity having life orb makes that a little harder. Due to that longevity though I could use drain punch over close combat as not only a healing move but also as a fighting move that doesn't lower my defense and special defense every time I use it. Zen headbutt beats water absorb clodsire and pecharunt but the main reason I chose it was because it seemed like a better coverage move than throat chop and because the dark immunity would be covered by drain punch.
The reason I chose tera dragon as both the tera and the last move was because tera dragon flips Palafin's weaknesses on its head while also giving it chip against a certain pokemon for one turn and maybe a winning match up if that pokemon doesn't bring play rough. Tera blast dragon is also a good coverage move since it hits all the dragon in the tier harder than ice punch would (except dragonite and garchomp if you think it is ou worthy) without the drawbacks of outrage. It also hits most of the tier for good neutral damage with fairy and steel types being covered with Palafin's other moves.
Palafin does have quite a few weaknesses that keep it at least a little bit grounded. First off if you have seen me not mentioning a pokemon's name it is because I wanted to save talking about it for this part specifically. Ogerpon wellspring is by far the biggest counter to Palafin. It easily beats the choice band sets due to Palafin being locked into a move and even if it isn't a water move Wogerpon has the bulk to survive one close combat which allows it to then easily fire back with a...powerful power whip. Bulk up is a little bit harder for Wogerpon but as long as it comes in fast enough it is easily able to stop Palafin with a power whip to the face. Mixed seems like the best option due to Palafin actually being able to use a move that Wogerpon is weak to but Palafin is slower so it is a similar idea to the bulk up set. When it came to my life orb set my solution for Wogerpon was to use tera dragon to tank a power whip to then hit Wogerpon with tera blast dragon (which takes away just over half of its health) and then switch out the next turn to Zapdos to hopefully get it paralyzed from static. Besides acrobatics the only way Palafin can actually deal with Wogerpon is with tera blast flying poison or bug which can beat it but then leaves Wogerpon more defensively vulnerable especially in the case of flying which is still weak to electric.
As for other big checks/counters Rillaboom seems pretty good due to it having a priority grass move and easily tanking jet punch (banded or not). However it does have to be careful of tera since most of Palafin's best teras deal with that grass weakness. Sinistcha could also be pretty good as it also easily tanks jet punch and is even immune to fighting coverage but similar to da monkey it also worries about Palafin's tera. Zapdos might be pretty solid due to it being able to tank the fighting coverage and probably roost off jet punch while threatening paralysis in return but it is deathly afraid of a banded wave crash which it will definitely not be surviving. Finally at least in my experience with the life orb set I actually found Dragapult to be pretty good into Palafin as its dragon typing allows it to actually take jet punch relatively well and be immune to fighting coverage. While it is weak to tera blast dragon unlike the others Dragapult actually runs dragon moves (while being faster than Palafin) and with or without being tera dragon draco meteor/dragon darts hits Palafin really hard. Even if Dragapult doesn't try to outright kill Palafin it could burn Palafin which effectively does kill Palafin due to it being way too weak now to actually do meaningful damage. I am not sure how good Dragapult will be against other sets but I think Palafin has a legitimate reason to fear it. There are other checks/counters too but I feel these are some of the best ones that aren't just Wogerpon.
As for general thoughts I think Palafin is ok for the moment. It is ludicrously strong of course but it does have legitimate counterplay which gives it a reason to stay in ou. For now I think it should be unbanned but it is far too early to tell and it isn't clear yet whether this counterplay is legitimate or if it is a sign of Palafin wrapping the meta around itself.
Ah if it's only for quick banned mons it's reasonable
If you really want to ruin the days of the mons you're cooking already (Bolt and Ogerpon), Tera Grass with that HP prevents Ogerpon from breaking your Sub after a single BU, which turns you from checking it to potentially grabbing extra boosts (+1 can OHKO 0/4 Raging Bolt on a roll with 1 Spike or Rocks), and at +1 you still KO Phys Def Corv with any 2 hits and +1 Iron Press Zama is 2HKO'd by FP + Wave Crash at +1 (without Dauntless +1 Wave can KO after a Spike, so Knock Off for Boots/Chippers for Lefties also help).
Unboosted Bolt also needs its Dragon Move to break a Grass Sub, though Proto or a CM boost will pull it off with resisted hits too.
Mostly calced for fun, but once Palafin settles in and starts being prepped for, it could be a funny "today I will remind them" way to really ruin their days.
idk how other people feel but tera blast really skews my opinion of what to do with Palafin. Having to guess whether or not it’s Tera blast fairy adds to its potential brokenness, but I think without it, it would be more manageable
What's it using tera fairy for? Covering specs Dragapult draco meteor? Latios?
I see where you are coming from but I still don't agree with this difference in requirements. When the council quickbans something, they usually have a good reason for doing so. That said if there is general low trust in the councils judgement, that would be more acceptable to me. But the council does have multiple members that have their own opinions, right? I would say that decreases the risk of the abuse of power unless the council is only recruiting like-minded players of course at which point there is a different problem at hand(I know you guys aren't like that). If the council has made mistakes(like the Volc ban), the playerbase will let you know through surveys, comments and reactions.
The thing is when one thing gets quickbanned, it probably won't get retested for a while if I am not mistaken. Retest usually happen after a significant amount of time have passed with probably multiple trends arising and falling or a strong meta shift happened at which point both of those things define the new status quo. By dropping a new mon, the status quo will shake in the same vein that banning a mon would. So honestly, I feel like both bans and unbans should hit the same threshold. Just to make it more consistent.
I know this is set in stone in this gen though, so I have nothing more to say, just wanted to get my opinion out. I wasnt there during the Mel suspect so I can't comment on that.
As far as fairness goes, quite a few people that dont like the threat saturation this gen will probably feel it is unfair that unbanning a mon requires less votes then banning a mon especially after the Kyurem debacle. But this is more a feeling based comment and is a subjective thing.
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Soooo we just need to get fin into OU to have another argument to let volc back in? Sign me up, i miss my matchup moth
daddybuzzwole is genuinely the single greatest user of ad hominem attacks of all time
this still feels a bit weird but alr. like ehhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh i think 60% unban is fair for everything tbh, the status quo shouldn't change that quickly
Less sniping at each other, more discussing how to break Toxapex without fitting Zen Headbutt.
For someone who proclaims to know about logical fallacies, you sure as hell don’t shy away from ad hominem. Do better.
I am just sad no one is responding to my analysis :(
I'm glad we're retesting uber mons that were quickbanned in completely different metas, this is a big step forward for the tiering process and I wouldn't mind more going forward but instead of doing it through a likeshop I think incorporating reasonable options in surveys is the way to go. Because we don't have these things in the tier and theorymonning only goes so far, I think it should be on the council to present reasonable options and gauge the playerbases appetite for them. People who play the tier and aren't fond of the meta are always going to be calling for more tests/bans but it's hard to get worked up over a hypothetical which skews the dynamic and explains why it's been so rare to see retests.
I was skeptical of palafin initially and haven't changed my opinion much and will probably be voting ban because I find it overpowered, albeit very fun, and was content enough with the status quo prior to its introduction. Glisc fsr was less common and that was the only thing I really loathed about the tier. People have such unhinged delusions over kyurem it's borderline concerning... the primary reason I wanted it gone was to get rid of gliscor afterwards, it shouldn't be retested for a long time if at all even if it and gliscor are a bit more borderline to me. I do find zama borderline OP again but I'm not sure if I would support a ban. The other things people want banned like rai and oger-w are silly to me.
I'd like the council to keep an open mind to further retests and the potential unbans that would result in a hypothetical terablast ban.
I was skeptical of palafin initially and haven't changed my opinion much and will probably be voting ban because I find it overpowered, albeit very fun, and was content enough with the status quo prior to its introduction. Glisc fsr was less common and that was the only thing I really loathed about the tier. People have such unhinged delusions over kyurem it's borderline concerning... the primary reason I wanted it gone was to get rid of gliscor afterwards, it shouldn't be retested for a long time if at all even if it and gliscor are a bit more borderline to me. I do find zama borderline OP again but I'm not sure if I would support a ban. The other things people want banned like rai and oger-w are silly to me.
I'd like the council to keep an open mind to further retests and the potential unbans that would result in a hypothetical terablast ban.
I may not quite agree with it being broken (yet) but I do absolutely agree that we shouldn't have needed this likeshop to finally get an uber brought down (no disrespect to the likeshop it is pretty cool). All jokes aside I am serious about wanting to test Solgaleo. I humbly request that on the survey after the next (doing it next survey is probably too soon) we put Solgaleo on the survey as a potential suspect as well as Lugia because even though I still think it is broken many people disagree and I think it is fair to give it a chance.
For the set you listed, it's a suicide machine (chip damage switching in, hazard damage, Life Orb recoil) that doesn't look to hit hard enough to wallbreak and lacks a boosting move to sweep. Probably a fine cleaner, but there's so many other options to clean that don't require you to lose a turn somewhere that why bother?
Without seeing a few replays where it's putting in work, it just doesn't look like it'd be effective.
As a general rule of thumb I would avoid 680 bst box legends like the plague as I don't think the limitations those two have are anywhere near as bad as say kyub from gens 5-7. I'd focus more on things that were once ou like ape, bax, sneas, eleki, volc, ursh-rs but filtering out things that obviously don't belong like chiyu. Granted this is my opinion and others will disagree... that's where the community input comes in but these are my 2 cents.
Also regarding your set I would not use life orb on palafin since it has good bulk and the chip sacrifices this. If you're uncomfortable making the high risk high reward reads of band I'd consider boots or a bulk up 3 attack set.
Also regarding your set I would not use life orb on palafin since it has good bulk and the chip sacrifices this. If you're uncomfortable making the high risk high reward reads of band I'd consider boots or a bulk up 3 attack set.
If Palafin ends up being not broken (doubtful), we need to test 3 o 4 more ubers.
Ok maybe not 3 or 4 but even if Palafin is broken I still think Solgaleo at the very least should have a suspect later in 2025.
i agree, actually. i'm firmly against dropping ubers, but if, through some supernatural event, palafin turns out to be balanced, my faith in that stance will be thoroughly shaken. in that very very unlikely case, i'd suggest tests on lugia, solgaleo, volcarona, and zama-c, in that order
My list would be Solgaleo, Lugia, Archaludon and Annihilape
Not sure why some of you insist in this idea of dropping box legendaries in the same tier where people stay complaining that it’s filled with broken shit? I may understand giving a chance to things that were banned early on when there are more counters or checks for them but things like the Great Wall (Lugia), Solgaleo or Giratina that have big coverage moves and tera to escape their weaknesses.
I see a lot of complaints at how planning for palafin is making things centralized. Other than the above post about tentacruel it's mostly already very used pokemon to begin with.
With the complaints about all of the many threats we have to cover would a little centralization be okay? A little.
Just making conversation here idc what happens with palafin.
Game feels fresh and okay- mayne an improvement? well see how a week goes.
With the complaints about all of the many threats we have to cover would a little centralization be okay? A little.
Just making conversation here idc what happens with palafin.
Game feels fresh and okay- mayne an improvement? well see how a week goes.