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i would like to note, that in this exact tour, Temp brought non hypnosis espathra as a matchup fish, game is here, and that the bring of espathra was a matchup fish for both games that it showed up, a Pokémon showing up in a tournament game does not mean it is not fishing, be it for luck or a matchup.
The claim that banning espathra is better due to it adding nothing to the tier can be replicated just the same with hypnosis, i have not seen a singular positive thing this mechanic has given this tier, while espathra is also really annoying without hypnosis, it feels desingenuous to put it on the same caliber as something that just wins 30% of the time if you don't have 2 counters, Espathra without hypnosis has consistent counterplay, with it, the most you can say is bring a Spdef Solgaleo and pray it's not Tera Blast Fire and gets 3 turns of sleep, cause then it's over, sleep saccing is not a valid argument considering that if the Pathra player so chooses, they can simply calm mind on your sleep sacrifice, or worse, you needing to sleep another setup mon's anwser.
(Sorry, missed this) I wanna ask, what makes something a match up fish to you? I mentioned the Temp vs Frito game yeah, Espathra without Hypnosis is a match up fish, so if we wish to remove the fishy(roads) element, then you just ban Espathra instead of Hypnosis.
Personally, I believe a match up fish is a Pokemon/team that can sweep specific comps but fights a 5v6 vs pretty much every other comp. I think Espathra without Hypnosis is this because you can do very little vs Darkceus, Steels, Giratina, etc, and become almost a dead slot when fighting two of these checks. Hypnopathra is not this, because, even when they're prepared for the sweep, it can still force certain plays and hinder your ability to check the rest of the team.
Seriously just adapt in the builder, it wins ONLY if you don't have two counters, which are all pretty easy to come by. UUbersPL week 1: Giratina on 60% of teams, Magearna + Solgaleo also on 60% of teams, Darkceus on a quarter of teams. A few teams went a more offensive route, and they still seem preparred. Hatterene alongside Sun had over 10% usage and Imperial brought Deo-S HO with Ekiller and Latios. The only teams that didn't have multiple checks were Frito's and FFMB which mence brought twice, and we know the first one lost to Pathra without Hypnosis.
UUbersPL week 2 was also similar: Giratina had over 50% usage, Magearna + Solgaleo had a combined usage of 60%. Hamurott and Hatterene with over 10% usage, There was a weird lack of Darkceus but Roaring Moon did appear on over 15% of teams. I believe the only teams that lost to Hypnopathra were Fc's Grassy Terrain team and Olivia's Raging Bolt + Iron Crown comp. Both very rare teams some and some would say they're straight up bad. It'd be easier to look at both sides if the VR was up to date but shifts are approaching so not much we can do but wait. I expect Espathra/sleep will only have potential action after the January survey so we're in no rush.
UUbersPL week 3 was a little skewed because SBAP vs Imperial didn't happen but its still pretty similar. Giratina is at 40% usage, Magearna + Solgaleo hit almost 65%, Darkceus and Roaring Moon sit at 30 and 20% respectively, Hatterene and Hamurott are at a respectable 10%. 2/3 of Baddy's teams, Olivia's team, and Aberforth's 2nd team are the 4 I think lacked Hypnopathra checks, Olivia was running Orthworm Shed Tail so the less thats viable the better :3. Baddy's teams that didnt have Pathra checks looked like they have enough offensive pressure to form counterplay despite sleep rng, and Aberforth's had Bloodmoon so cook ig.
To me paralysis as a mechanic offers a lot to the game outside of the effect of just removing agency from the other player.
In fact, even if that chance to not move was taken away, I truly think it'd still be an amazing status. Just lowering the speed of targets is a great endgame enabler.
Sleep and Freeze get the most flack because their one and literally only effect is to stop you from moving until you are randomly allowed to move again. On top of that, two (common) types are immune to most moves in current gen, with Glare being a major boon for any Pokemon with it. Lastly, paralysis is easier to justify on pivots that often don't need their speed, with the lower chance to not move on any given turn making them semi-reliable even when Para'd.
I'm not giving any opinion on what should be done on this topic, I just think that people who compare either of these two to Paralysis are missing why it isn't looked down as badly.
So the only potential argument I could see against a paralysis ban is that it aids players with speed control. However, this does not take away from the fact that it was seen as so overpowered, that Gamefreak reduced Thunder Wave's accuracy while making a whole type immune to the status in a generation they introduced mega rayquaza of all things. Goes to show how absurd it is.
In prior generations of OU from 6-8, it was not as horrible due to the plethora of T-wave immune grounds and strong electric types. In gen 9 OU, we have Grounds like Great Tusk, Gliscor, Iron Threads, Landorus-T, and Ting Lu, with electric types such as Raging Bolt and Zapdos, some of which are near mandatory on teams. This is why Paralysis has never been controversial in OU.
Ubers UU however only has 2 relevant electric types, one being the relatively mediocre Regieleki and the other being an Arceus slot. You also have only 1 viable ground type in Landorus-Incarnate, the rest are just crack picks(looking at you Blursa).
I can agree to both sides of the argument, turns lost from paralysis make the game uncompetitive, however, paralysis also enables players a valuable form of speed control which can help enable BO/Balance playstyles.
In my humble opinion, I feel that we should have a suspect test so that we can allow the community to decide, or atleast a community vote if we can implement a paralysis clause mod in the tier.
However, on the note of turn loss and uncompetitive mechanics, we have another which also happens to be the core mechanic of this generation(Terastallization), Maybe we should also consider suspect testing (or banning) this mechanic. :]
In my humble opinion, I feel that we should have a suspect test so that we can allow the community to decide, or atleast a community vote if we can implement a paralysis clause mod in the tier.
I feel like the issue with Espathra isn't with how consistent or not it is at beating certain teams. Tbh there's very little consistency about it esp when Hypnosis comes into play. And that's my issue with it. It's not so much a matter of whether or not Espathra is gonna win, it's a matter of how much agency does Espathra take out of the game. The fact that it can and has won games is why I think that Espathra should go, not necessarily because it will, if that makes sense.
I have always hated sleep in any meta, but genuine meta discussion about this seems very rushed. Sleep is being discussed as if it plagues this tier with a singular relevant tour game as the point of reference.
Discussion of tiering action against Espathra also seems unserious. There are many more consistent sweepers that don't even need to rely on sleep—the Zacian guessing games, Darkceus CM wars, the Ekiller sets, Terapagos, etc.
This is something that should be revisited much later and with more actual cases to support tiering action. The whole "sleep adds nothing good to the tier" argument just isn't as compelling to me as strong examples of what sleep does negatively. And one tour game with some random ladder replays doesn't seem strong enough to warrant serious action or even discussion atm. This just seems like people who have wanted sleep gone for a long time are jumping the gun because they finally got a singular tour game showcase of how it can be toxic.
I feel like the issue with Espathra isn't with how consistent or not it is at beating certain teams. Tbh there's very little consistency about it esp when Hypnosis comes into play. And that's my issue with it. It's not so much a matter of whether or not Espathra is gonna win, it's a matter of how much agency does Espathra take out of the game. The fact that it can and has won games is why I think that Espathra should go, not necessarily because it will, if that makes sense.
With all due respect Finchely, I partially disagree. Yes Espatra is an inconsistant pokemon which is beating certain teams(even those it should not in theory). However, as also showcased by Mozonite,
Flittle when given the same tools and aid was able to do the same against FishyRoads who is one of our more respected community members.
I feel that it is key we understand if the cause for this is because of just sleep, speed boost, stored power, a combination of speed boost+stored power, or a combination of all three.
I could also be wrong and maybe the unhealthy element could be just Espatra with Flittle being a mere shitmon that put in work that one game.
I feel identifying the root cause would be more effective. This is similar to the case of Arena Trap. Dugtrio was initially banned, however people started to use diglett because it was found to be just as effective at doing the job. This is the reason for my scepticism on banning Espatra.
Agreeing with everyone who says it's stupid to consider Espathra/Sleep broken right now, it's literally a single tour game and you all going nuts. Espathra hasn't had any tour win by stupidly making its way through in months (if any) and will probably stay like that for a long time. I deem Sleep uncompetitive and should be banned everywhere if I had the power to do so, but it doesn't work like that so deal with it.
If you really want to prove this is banworthy, use it in tours and prove it's consistent to cheese through teams with Hypnosis and not Espathra. If Espathra is too much for the tier, wether it's thanks to Sleep or not, it can be suspected. Until that, play better and don't let it take free wins. Skill issue.
With all due respect Finchely, I partially disagree. Yes Espatra is an inconsistant pokemon which is beating certain teams(even those it should not in theory). However, as also showcased by Mozonite,
Flittle when given the same tools and aid was able to do the same against FishyRoads who is one of our more respected community members.
I feel that it is key we understand if the cause for this is because of just sleep, speed boost, stored power, a combination of speed boost+stored power, or a combination of all three.
I could also be wrong and maybe the unhealthy element could be just Espatra with Flittle being a mere shitmon that put in work that one game.
I want to note something with the Espathra discourse, its ANOTHER Pokemon being controversial because of Tera (yk if Tera Blast was banned this wouldn't be a probelm either jus saying). Without access to Fire and Ground coverage to hit Magearna and Solgaleo, they can Encore/Phase it out even when dealing with 3 turn sleeps, when looking at team preview, there's no need to worry about which set it is, the only coverage it can run is Dgleam. My previous mentioned checks also stand (except for Rmoon and Hamurott now) if you don't wanna run one of the Steels.
I say another because there are many Pokemon that have proven frustrating through Tera and Tera Blast. Tera Blast Zacian gets hate for being able to choose its counters (deserved, the amount of games I saw skimming through UUbersPL where Zacian severely dented the other team because of Tera is insane), but its a very positive Pokemon for the tier outside of Tera and there's room to outplay/emergency check it with their own Tera, so not many have pushed for a ban.
NDW was viewed as a very positive mon for the tier besides the Tera Blasts sets, allowing for more freedom on Ghosts, access to Knock Off, being able to trade with the aforementioned Zacian, and being half a Mewtwo check, the best you can do. But had to get axed instead because the community doesn't want to ban Tera/Tera Blast. You could even make an argument for some other Pokemon being tested with the ban of Tera, such as Dragonceus and Ghostceus, especially when influenced by shifts (primarily the potential Dirge)
Arceus-Dark and other Arceus forms have also stolen many games by becoming an illegal Arceus form in Ubers UU.
The major uses of Tera are
A) sweep
B) stop a Terastallized mon from sweeping
C) reward holes in teambuilding (choosing to not put a Fire or Ground resist on a team)
What reasons are there to keep Tera? Only a decrease in viability from Regieleki and Spectrier, the former only loses a way to force Landorus out, as the other electric resists either eat Tera Blast anyway (Giratina, Gouging Fire, Electriceus) or are the many Tera Grounds in the tier, which you no longer have to worry about! Spectrier is a rare set up sweeper that relies on Tera to pull out wins with perfect 2 move coverage, very healthy and justifies Tera!
Tera is absolutely the problem here and in many cases, also at fault for other shaky Pokemon in Ubers UU. Darkceus and Poisonceus constantly appear in surveys largely because of Tera, Tera Zacian has been quietly rising as an issue ever since Lando T left the tier, even Tera Blast originally got more support than NDW and was suspected first. Tera keeps causing issues and instead of fretting over Espathra's tour game, we should use this as more support and ban the fuck out of Tera already. A teraless metagame probably won't be perfect, as it will massively change the metagame and new potentialy problematic trends will pop up, but thats fine, banning Tera is the first step to make Ubers UU a better and healthier tier.
I want to note something with the Espathra discourse, its ANOTHER Pokemon being controversial because of Tera (yk if Tera Blast was banned this wouldn't be a probelm either jus saying). Without access to Fire and Ground coverage to hit Magearna and Solgaleo, they can Encore/Phase it out even when dealing with 3 turn sleeps, when looking at team preview, there's no need to worry about which set it is, the only coverage it can run is Dgleam. My previous mentioned checks also stand (except for Rmoon and Hamurott now) if you don't wanna run one of the Steels.
I say another because there are many Pokemon that have proven frustrating through Tera and Tera Blast. Tera Blast Zacian gets hate for being able to choose its counters (deserved, the amount of games I saw skimming through UUbersPL where Zacian severely dented the other team because of Tera is insane), but its a very positive Pokemon for the tier outside of Tera and there's room to outplay/emergency check it with their own Tera, so not many have pushed for a ban.
NDW was viewed as a very positive mon for the tier besides the Tera Blasts sets, allowing for more freedom on Ghosts, access to Knock Off, being able to trade with the aforementioned Zacian, and being half a Mewtwo check, the best you can do. But had to get axed instead because the community doesn't want to ban Tera/Tera Blast. You could even make an argument for some other Pokemon being tested with the ban of Tera, such as Steelceus and Ghostceus, especially when influenced by shifts (primarily the potential Dirge and eventual Ting-Lu)
Arceus-Dark and other Arceus forms have also stolen many games by becoming an illegal Arceus form in Ubers UU.
The major uses of Tera are
A) sweep
B) stop a Terastallized mon from sweeping
C) reward holes in teambuilding (choosing to not put a Fire or Ground resist on a team)
What reasons are there to keep Tera? Only a decrease in viability from Regieleki and Spectrier, the former only loses a way to force Landorus out, as the other electric resists either eat Tera Blast anyway (Giratina, Gouging Fire, Electriceus) or are the many Tera Grounds in the tier, which you no longer have to worry about! Spectrier is a rare set up sweeper that relies on Tera to pull out wins with perfect 2 move coverage, very healthy and justifies Tera!
Tera is absolutely the problem here and in many cases, also at fault for other shaky Pokemon in Ubers UU. Darkceus and Poisonceus constantly appear in surveys largely because of Tera, Tera Zacian has been quietly rising as an issue ever since Lando T left the tier, even Tera Blast originally got more support than NDW and was suspected first. Tera keeps causing issues and instead of fretting over Espathra's tour game, we should use this as more support and ban the fuck out of Tera already. A teraless metagame probably won't be perfect, as it will massively change the metagame and new potentialy problematic trends will pop up, but thats fine, banning Tera is the first step to make Ubers UU a better and healthier tier.
totally agree w/ this post i am the #1 tera hater.
but tbf, tera has more unique upsides here than probably anywhere else, with terapagos and firepon having formes attached, and regieleki depending on the threat heavily, and i think both would still be viable/survive, but the drop in viability would be harsh. (regieleki is totally dead tho, fc will have to glaze deoxys instead ig.)
still, it also has unique downsides. like tera arc. abomination of a pokemon. giving zacian a spammable ground move, letting mewtwo nuke steels/darks with stab focus blast, and letting gouging fire 2hko a dondozo because it woke up on the wrong side of the bed. theres ALOT of replays of a tera blast zacian goobing or a tera arc goobing, bc they are just such repeat offenders that are necessary pieces of this tier and they get away with it bc of that.
I think Tera itself is fine for the tier, but I think Tera Blast is definitely the biggest problem in the tier and it’s a shame it didn’t get banned. Not having Tera Blast would have opened up the metagame tremendously, but that ship has since sailed and likely cannot be revisited for quite some time, and only with significant support. I don’t support any action on Tera itself, but I would support revisiting Tera Blast in the future.
I think Tera itself is fine for the tier, but I think Tera Blast is definitely the biggest problem in the tier and it’s a shame it didn’t get banned. Not having Tera Blast would have opened up the metagame tremendously, but that ship has since sailed and likely cannot be revisited for quite some time, and only with significant support. I don’t support any action on Tera itself, but I would support revisiting Tera Blast in the future.
I agree that Tera Blast sparks too much controversy with Espathra, Zacian, and NDW, having it banned would open up these Pokemon to becoming more fair. But I think Tera Arc will still remain just as obnoxious and prevent the tier from growing very much. I think Arceus is an essential piece of UUbers and banning all Arc is out of the question, would make the tier turn out as a more chaotic and unbalanced OU. So if action isn't taken on Tera, Tera Arceus will continue to be an issue people just have to deal with, unhealthy or not, there are a few Arceus that got the ban hammer because they were too much with Tera (Dragonceus recently), but thats only a band aid to the real issue imo. There would be an argument for keeping Tera if the other ways of using Tera were actually honest.
The major uses of Tera are
A) sweep
B) stop a Terastallized mon from sweeping
C) reward holes in teambuilding (choosing to not put a Fire or Ground resist on a team)
I strongly believe this and it becomes very clear watching tour games, its primarily Arceus and Zacian, but the Tera of random Pokemon to not get swept also happened quite often, whether it would be defensive Pokemon or revenge killers too weak to kill without it. Tera feels very dishonest as a mechanic preserved for the sake of the viability of a few Pokemon, and I cant imagine the meta getting worse without it.
Tera feels very dishonest as a mechanic preserved for the sake of the viability of a few Pokemon, and I cant imagine the meta getting worse without it.
The thing is, I don't see how Tera is any more detrimental to Ubers UU than it would be with other tiers that have Tera, so not sure why we would consider taking action on it. However, I do see an argument on why Tera Blast is specifically a larger issue for Ubers UU moreso than other CG tiers due to how it enables some of the already best sweepers in Zacian, Espathra, and NDW, to an extreme enough point where tiering action would be appropriate for this tier specifically.
I think the argument that Arceus makes Tera more uniquely problematic to Ubers UU is the only plausible argument for taking action against it in this tier specifically, but I don't really see the issue much there as plenty of other mons in the tier and other tiers use Tera in a similar fashion. Either way, it's not the topic at hand, and I think a future survey would help shed light on how people feel about whether it is actionable.
This was all from the Top 32 week of swiss, a single week with almost 10 controversial replays of Arceus, and the only reason there isn't more is because I thought Tera Poison Darkceus sweeps didn't fit the theme of Arceus becoming an Illegal form in Ubers UU, and Zacian was too busy stealing a bunch of other games. Tera Arceus running away with tour games happens way too often and is very toxic for Ubers UU. Won't say more since original message already has the Tera hate, this is just another source of data.
This was all from the Top 32 week of swiss, a single week with almost 10 controversial replays of Arceus, and the only reason there isn't more is because I thought Tera Poison Darkceus sweeps didn't fit the theme of Arceus becoming an Illegal form in Ubers UU, and Zacian was too busy stealing a bunch of other games. Tera Arceus running away with tour games happens way too often and is very toxic for Ubers UU. Won't say more since original message already has the Tera hate, this is just another source of data.
I'm gonna be really honest, this isn't really about Tera to me, it's about Arceus, and these arguments seem to more cater to favoring a full Arceus ban than anything to do with Tera.
I'm gonna be really honest, this isn't really about Tera to me, it's about Arceus, and these arguments seem to more cater to favoring a full Arceus ban than anything to do with Tera.
Specifically Arceus with Tera, every form has a much harder time sweeping when it cant just turn into an Ubers-caliber Pokemon and deny a check. almost everyone of these games would play out differently if not for Tera, Landorus can live an attack and OHKO back, without Tera Water, Arceus cant just take 3 free kills, earlier replays with Fairyceus required it to keep the set up and win the game, Groundceus can't threaten sweeps without the tera commitment (in the games shown), Flyingceus was needed to reward not having a Ground-resist, Normalceus needed the extra damage to do its job every time.
I think Arceus without Tera is an amazing asset for Ubers UU, kind of sets a good power level for the tier (Weaker Arceus/Box Arts, stronger mythicals/sub legendaries). Without Arceus I can imagine the tier will need a lot of bans, no way/very limited way to soft check or deny sweeps from the majority of Pokemon anymore, and imo it'll evolve to OU + bunch of brokens, like I said before.
Regarding espathra, yes, it's bullshit cheese, no, it's not a problem. Tera ban is just not going to go anywhere, and calling a pokemon "fairyceus" because it terastalized is maybe the dumbest thing I've ever read on website, and I frequently use Twitter.
With the new drops of Iron X and Iron X, I believe it’s time to start using Electric Terrain teams so we can stop the evil Sleep menace taking over our tier and destroying it to the ground. Let this day be a new day where we all stand strong against the oppression created by our own dreams.
With the new drops of Iron X and Iron X, I believe it’s time to start using Electric Terrain teams so we can stop the evil Sleep menace taking over our tier and destroying it to the ground. Let this day be a new day where we all stand strong against the oppression created by our own dreams.
